why not a lever action in 45AR or ACP

[RU shooter]

As I was looking through my reloading manual last light I saw the 45 auto rim ctg. is there a reason it or even the 45 acp has never been used in a light handy lever action carbine ? Seems to me like would be a great ctg. in that application and you sure could stuff alot of them into the tube.

[starmac]

I would imagine they just don't think there would be the number of buyers to support the costs associated with it.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

if your going to ask that , i can ask why not more pump guns , it seems like it would be a very easy platform to build.

if manufactures can make pump 12 ga shotguns that can take the recoil of a 12ga 3 inch slugs , the pressure of a pistol cartridge carbine should be no problem , heck a .410 is already the right size for 45lc , so why don't we see a bunch of them.

[runfiverun]

sure why not?
i'd like to see a new 92 in 41 mag,32-20,25-20.
and let's make some 445,375, 414 super mags, and the 357-max too while we are at it.

the shortened 45 colt case called the 45 cowboy was available for a while [custom] it is similar to the 45 acp.
to do an acp the entire bolt face, and extractor would have to be re-done, and the auto rim-rim is too thick without those same mod's.
the others [44 mag,45 colt,44-40] just need the bolt face cut slightly larger or smaller.

[btroj]

I have a 45 ACP lever action, it jst handles itis the form of a 45 Colt. I can load the Colt down to the same level if I want to. I can also load it up way more.
Mine holds 10 in the magazine now, not sure why I would ever need more.

I am with R5R, I would like to see a 25-20 and a 357 Max. The Max is long enou it may not fit in a pistol cartridge length action.

[pietro]

As I was looking through my reloading manual last light I saw the 45 auto rim ctg. is there a reason it or even the 45 acp has never been used in a light handy lever action carbine ?


Yep - R.I.M. & geometry.

Traditional leverguns were designed for rimmed, and not rimless, cartridges;

AND

2 short + 2 fat = 4 getaboutit - IOW, feeding from the tube mag is problematic.

.

[bob208]

years ago i saw some 92 winchester clones from south america in .45 acp. i think they went by the name of eltigre

[John Taylor]

I get Marlin 94s in for the conversion to 45 ACP. I tried a 92 and there is just to many problems to get it to work.

[northmn]

Interesting on folks desires. Didn't Marlin make a little semi auto in 9mm and 45 ACP "camp gun" Don't know if it took the world by storm. The 357 Max is probably no real improvement over the 35 Remington. The 45 Colt in a lever seems to be popular. I have a replica of the colt in 45 but would never even think of trying to shoot some of the loads they use in a rifle. The same cartridge for pistol and rifle is intriguing but for me is of limited benefit. More of a CB shooters concept, whcih is OK as that is probably a lot of fun. I use my rifles for deer and any pistol I would use are loaded for pistols.

DP

[HDS]

If I didn't already reload .44 magnum and special I would have liked one in 9mm or .45ACP. I know it's technically possible to make one, I did handle a very old Winchester 92 at the gunsmith that was converted to 9mm sometime after the 2nd world war.

[Lefthandshooter]

The Camp 9 and Camp 45 are nice semi-auto guns, and I've seen the 9 for sale around $400, but have never seen one for sale in 45. Those who have them do not sell them, and if do I was told double the 9.

[RU shooter]

The Camp 9 and Camp 45 are nice semi-auto guns, and I've seen the 9 for sale around $400, but have never seen one for sale in 45. Those who have them do not sell them, and if do I was told double the 9.
I did have a camp 45 long ago when they first came out , Great little carbine but flung brass 30 ft or more. And now no longer made , The only one made now I know of is the Hi Point and they sell alot of them. I would think a lever or pump in 45 acp would sell very well to fill that niche and would appeal to the non tactical types better than something all black and make of plastic with rails all over it.

[DanWalker]

I agree! something like an updated version of the M1 carbine, but chambered in 45 acp, would have me reaching for my wallet like Bob Munden going for his sixgun!

[Four Fingers of Death]

I always fancied a reduced size pump or lever rifle in 9mm. Be a handy little critter. A 38Supper wiould also be neat, probably even better. 38Super brass is pretty much rimless now isn't it?

As far as rimless cases go, the 35 Remington seems to go alright.

I am under the impression 45ACP Rossi or Taurus 92s were used by some Mexican and/or South American Police forces.

But nice as they might be, they ain't gonna do anything a 38/357, a 44Mag or a 45Colt will do easy.

[Larry Gibson]

I missed the boat years back on those m92s in 45 ACP. Wish I would have got one back then. I have a M98 I converted to 45 Acp now and it works very well.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

A round nose FMJ bullet might well set off the primer of the next cartridge in a tublar magazine.
The only Lever Action Carbines chambered for the .45 ACP that I've heard of were a few converted Mexican police carbines that were either Winchester 92 models or copies of the 92 fitted with pistol or Grease gun box magazines.

A Spanish copy of the Winchester 92 called the "el Tigre" was used by Mexican police and as motion picture props in many American Western films and TV series.
A Spanish copy of the 1873 Winchester was also used for the same purposes and went by the same name.

I've also seen a couple of similar conversions used as motion picture props in the Sci Fi Movie "Soldier". I'm told these were built on a very limited basis somewhere in the UK or a former British possession because of some temporary prohibition on some types of imported commercial cartridges and for some reason the owners had access to surplus .45 and 9mm ammo but not to commercial rifle cartridges that were also pistol cartridges such as the .44-40 and .38-40. The conversion used M3 Greasegun magazines or STEN gun magazines.

Theres really not much of a problem in using a rimless cartridge in the more common lever action designs, I think some very early lever actions did depend on the rim to ensure ejection by coming into contact with the rim of the next round on the opening stroke.

PS
You could chamber a lever action in .45 ACP and so long as you used only flat nosed bullets there would be no problem.
I've seen photos of a Ruger .44 Magnum autoloader who's owner used round nosed bullets, it was not a pretty sight. One of the round nose bullets set off the primer of the round ahead of it and the chain reaction detonation of all the rounds in the tublar magazine destroyed the rifle.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Back in the 70's there was a guy who advertised in American Rifleman conversions of M1 carbines to .45 Win Mag. He was located in Michigan some where.

Why they didin't build the M1 in .45 ACP to begin with has always baffled me. They already had the cartridge in large quantities. It would have supplimented the 1911 pistol, and would have worked far better for the intended purpose than the .30 M1 cartridge which is virtually useless. 110 gr bullet versus 230 gr bullet, no contest.

Or they could have made it select fire and had a submachine gun. It could have used Thompson Magazines which already were being made.

This was a no brainer? Why didn't it happen this way?

A true 100 yard rifle, and it would have been a real winner.

If they had made it in .45 ACP I doubt you could ever find a used one, as that gun would definately be a keeper. I would have bought one as soon as I graduated high school, and I would still have it.

Randy

[KCSO]

A 45 ACP will gain about 150 fps from a 16" barrel as opposed to a 5" barrel. By the same token a 45 Colt due to the capacity and slower burning powders you can use will gain over 300 fps. The case limitations make the 45 ACP pretty much a waste in a carbine unless you just want to make a gun go bang or you want to spray a garage wall on valentines day.

[Larry Gibson]

GI 230 gr WCC ball picks up 100 fps in the 16 1/4" barrel over my 5" M1911s. My standard practice and IPSC "major" load of 5 gr Bullseye under a 190 - 205 gr cast runs 130 - 150 fps faster. My 7.5 Unique loads with 195 - 205 gr cast picks up 200 fps and the same 7.5 gr under the 185 XTP picks up over 200 fps also. Blue Dot +P loads with the GC'd 245 gr 452490 pick up close to 350 fps vs from a 5.5" M1917.

Larry Gibson

[2ndAmendmentNut]

A 45 ACP will gain about 150 fps from a 16" barrel as opposed to a 5" barrel. By the same token a 45 Colt due to the capacity and slower burning powders you can use will gain over 300 fps. The case limitations make the 45 ACP pretty much a waste in a carbine unless you just want to make a gun go bang or you want to spray a garage wall on valentines day.

I personally find it practical/convenient to have a carbine in the same caliber because of the ability to use the same ammo, not because of any ballistic advantage.

[excess650]

it really wouldn't be difficult to convert a 336 35 Remington to 45acp. They're both rimless, similar rim diameter, so boltface alteration would be minimal, and the magazine tube would work. The lifter would have to have a stop added so as to only allow (1) cartridge to feed, and of course, the rebarrel. The action is just longer than necessary.

A Marlin 1894 41mag would convert over easily with just a rebarrel and lifter stop.

I agree, a carbine length long gun, manually operated repeater would be handy in 45acp. The Browning/Winchester Low Wall action would be dandy for a singleshooter.

The 45AR case isn't exactly plentiful, so why use it?

[Pepe Ray]

The Marlin M94 in .41mag would, without question, would be the ideal platform to birth a .45ACP version.
The problem is availability. When one can be found it is priced like a first born child.
I'll probably go with a .44mag. version.
Whenever the subject comes up there is aslways someone who's been infected with magnumitis and cannot see the value of the .45ACP. Only a hot loaded Colt or .44mag will satisfy them. I'm happy for them. They've got boucoup to select from.
The O.P.'s question has been answered correctly. Liability.

I've been on the trail searching for a gunsmith within travelling distance for me. I'll be interviewing for a likely candidate soon.
Pepe Ray

[StrawHat]

I believe Ed Harris wrote about a 45 ACP lever gun he had built. If I can find the references, I will post them.

[KCSO]

Larry I shot standard ball in a Thompson and was getting about 100 fps. I either use factory ammo or practice ammo in my 45's so i never tried Blue Dot.

As to same caliber for handgun and rifle I do the same with some guns but II was talking from a factory point of view and you make what sells the most. Levergunners by in large are mostly cowboy types and whould sneer at a 45acp levergun and the modern folks are mostly shooting semi auto carbines.

[Multigunner]

Back in the 70's there was a guy who advertised in American Rifleman conversions of M1 carbines to .45 Win Mag. He was located in Michigan some where.

Why they didin't build the M1 in .45 ACP to begin with has always baffled me. They already had the cartridge in large quantities. It would have supplimented the 1911 pistol, and would have worked far better for the intended purpose than the .30 M1 cartridge which is virtually useless. 110 gr bullet versus 230 gr bullet, no contest.

Or they could have made it select fire and had a submachine gun. It could have used Thompson Magazines which already were being made.

This was a no brainer? Why didn't it happen this way?

A true 100 yard rifle, and it would have been a real winner.

If they had made it in .45 ACP I doubt you could ever find a used one, as that gun would definately be a keeper. I would have bought one as soon as I graduated high school, and I would still have it.

Randy

Most don't realize that effective body armor was in use in both WW1 and WW2 on a limited issue basis.
One selling point for the .30 Carbine cartridge was its ability to penetrate body armor that would stop a .45 ACP cold.
There are sites where records of the U S military testing of Japanese body are available. Besides breastplates the Japanese also had greaves to protect the legs.
Few of the Japanese regulars wore the armor but it was common for their machinegunners and some photos from early on in the war show Japanese officers wearing the breastplates.
The Japanese had picked up the practice from the Russians who issued thousands of nickel steel breastplates with thick layered silk vests under the steel to officers during their war of 1905.

Body aror became less common later in the war, but the Japanese special air commando units had a more modern looking vest that the U S tested and had considered copying. The Korean War and Vietnam era U S body armor resembles the late war Japanese vests. The main difference was the Japanese were still using Manganese steel rather than ballistic nylon.

The Japanese helmets were also tough to penetrate, and U S Army training films demonstrated that the .45 ACP could seldom penetrate the German helmets.

The Russians also issued bullet resistent manganese steel breastplates that could stop a 9mm SMG round at 100 yards and offered some protection at closer ranges. Those might stop a .45 ACP close up.

The Reising SMG was about as close as you could get to a select fire Carbine in .45 ACP. It was issued to U S Marines early on but quickly proved unsuitable to rough conditions in the field.

The .30 Carbine round was no great shakes as a man stopper, but did have excellent penetration compared to the .45 and 9mm SMGs.

[excess650]

I had used Hercules Blue Dot in 45AR cases under 250gr with excellent accuracy. I recently tried Alliant Blue Dot with similar loads and was surprised how much unburnt powder remained. I'm not inclined to use my 625 as a magnum, and don't want to chance a problem with its thin cylinder walls. At this point I may just use the remainder of my Blue Dot in 12ga magnum loads.

[felix]

It's too bad the bunch of us serious hobbyists don't live in close proximity to each other. At our older ages, donor guns should come out of the woodwork for this kind of toy research. On the down side, however, we place too much emphasis upon the emotional aspects of our gun collections, like converting a "rare" gun into another toy as a group project. Who in their right mind would convert a Marlin 41Mag to ACP, for example, which would be swapping a true penetrating machine for a bouncy-ball pee shooter. That is, unless we like to have an ultimate beer can bouncer amongst a collective collection. ... felix

[W.R.Buchanan]

Multigunner: I hear what you are saying, BUT,,, to say a .30 M1 cartridge has any significant advantage over the .45 ACP is hard for me to swallow. Also I have a problem with the body armor theory.

The only advantage I can see is the ability to carry more ammo. A 110 gr bullet is just not going to penetrate much of anything. The gun is a marginal man killer, and certainly not a man stopper. Most consider it's highest and best use as a Rabbit gun.

They made all our submachine guns in .45 ACP (Thompson / M3) So why I ask, would they deviate from that and create a new cartridge with less knock down power and create a new and unneeded logistical problem as well.

As far as body armor in WWII? I think that story's actual numbers would be considerably less than the article purports.

There was no body armor at that time short of a piece of steel plate that would stop a .30-06 or 8MM infantry round. The average infantry guy didn't have body armor of any type. I have never heard of any officers in WWII that did have body armor either. I say this, as if they had, it would be available on the surplus market somewhere. I have never seen anything like this, has anyone else?

Gunners in B17's did have Flak Jackets but they wern't being shot at with rifles, and an infantryman couldn't have worn one in combat anyway as they were too bulky. I have never seen any WWII movie that showed any kind of body armor. Hitler didn't even have body armor!

In Vietman many guys wore flak vests, and that was the first wide spread use of body armor in a modern battlefield setting I am aware of. It was only marginally effective. Even then being hit by a .45 ACP round would still probably knock you to the ground. I doubt a .30 M1 carbine round would.

Just so you know, I am not volunteering to be shot by either one. Armor or not.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

The gun is a marginal man killer, and certainly not a man stopper. Most consider it's highest and best use as a Rabbit gun.

Some of us who could shoot and who used the M1 Carbine found the .30 Carbine cartridge to be adequit within it's capability. No it is not a '06 nor a .45 ACP. However, it's effective range is considerably farther than the .45 ACP in any gun it was fielded in. I have used an M1 Carbine (actually and M2 but never used it in anger on rock 'n roll) in combat in the late SE Asian war games. I found it very adequate against PAVN who were not wearing body armor (never saw any that were). You also might read LTC John George's Shots Fired In Anger. I've also killed numerous coyotes and other varmints, including lots of rabbits BTW, and 7 deer with mine......all somewhat bigger than a rabbit and all with 1 shot.

With appropriate soft point or HPs the .30 Carbine out of the M1 Carbine is every bit as effective as a .357 Magnum out of any rifle. Having both an M1 Carbine (actually 3 of them) and a very accurate .45 ACP rifle I can tell you the M1 Carbine has twice, if not 3 times the practical effective range as the .45 ACP. Having both, I'm not going to pooh pooh either but will just realisticaly consider the merits and effectiveness of each and use them within those confines quite satisfactorly.

Larry Gibson

[Pepe Ray]

Felix;
Who in their right mind would convert a Marlin 41Mag to ACP, for example, which would be swapping a true penetrating machine for a bouncy-ball pee shooter. That is, unless we like to have an ultimate beer can bouncer amongst a collective collection. ... felix
__________________ME!_ME! I would!! In a heart beat!! Yes sir!! - Did I hear you say that you have a M94 Marlin in .41Mag that I could afford??? P.M. me at once.

If you peer through the levity, deep enough, you will find a substantial amount of
sincerity. Apparently I have way too much respect for the .45ACP and good sights.
Pepe Ray

[bowfin]

I have never seen anything like this, has anyone else?

I did hear a story of a Japanese officer surprising a couple of rear echelon soldiers with a determined samurai sword attack. He was wearing body armor, and he took several hits with .45 ACP rounds before a Registered Magnum (.357) put him down.

However, don't put too much into single case scenarios. I know of a Korean War vet who dropped a running elk with an M1 Carbine, while Al Zharqawi, the noted psychopath terrorist of Iraq, was hit with two 500 lb. bombs and still lived twelve hours.

[RU shooter]

seems like everyone is trying to compare this to something else. I didnt want to take this to a one is better that the other debate. Yes the 45 acp isnt a 357 or 44 mag or a M1 carbine,But on the other hand its not too far from a 45 colt or 44 spl. in standard pressure loads either. Im with Pepe Ray although not as far into it as he but I would buy one if marlin stuck one in front of me.

[W.R.Buchanan]

We all just need something talk about. This seemed like a good thread to hijack.[smilie=w:

My M1 Carbine experience dates back to 1978 and consists of one day shooting a gun that was part of an estate sale. It came with 100 rnds of ammo and cost me $150.

I shot all the ammo at rocks, tin cans and one really lucky jack rabbit that I missed at 60ish yds. The rocks and tin cans weren't as lucky. I killed them all.

I then sold the gun for $150, it had been bubba'd and I had no use for it.

I see that round power wise, as being good for 150 yds at the outside. Accuracy wise depending on luck, 150 also. You could probably hit a man at 200 with some regularity.

I don't see the .45 ACP even beyond 100 yards, but it would have been good enough for the M1 Carbine's intended purposes and much easier for our govt to do at the time logistically. A .45 bullet will go 200 yards too. If you could hit a man with the .30 cal at 200, I'd bet you could hit him with the .45 as well. But I think the .45 might hurt more. I have no first hand experience to back this assertion up. Just thinkin'

Randy.

[excess650]

Randy,
Some years ago a friend bought a then new Colt Delta H-bar and wanted me to go to the range and shoot with him. We set up a B29 target at 100 yards so that he do "some long range shooting". He shot the Delta and I shot his accurized Colt .45. Using a neck hold I put a magazine in group the size of the palm of my hand at 100 yards. He didn't do as well with his new 223. While the trajectory is pretty sad, the .45acp can be an accurate round.

I think the 45acp in a longer than handgun configuration could make for a really fun plinker. The Marlin Camp Carbine didn't and doesn't appeal to me, and the AR blowback conversions don't either. Larry's Mauser conversion is cool, but I think I would have to put a .308 barrel on mine.....and my Ruger #1 is likely to be rebored to .358 or .375 with choice of chambering still up in the air. I know a guy with a Marlin 336 action and buttstock....

[Multigunner]

As far as body armor in WWII? I think that story's actual numbers would be considerably less than the article purports.

There was no body armor at that time short of a piece of steel plate that would stop a .30-06 or 8MM infantry round. The average infantry guy didn't have body armor of any type. I have never heard of any officers in WWII that did have body armor either. I say this, as if they had, it would be available on the surplus market somewhere. I have never seen anything like this, has anyone else?


There were both Nickel Steel and Manganese Steel breastplates capable of stopping the .45 ACP at close range available in WW1 , and layered silk soft body armor capable of stopping a .45 ACP bullet at a distance where the velocity dropped below 600 FPS.
The Germans had even heavier articulated breastplates that could stop a .303 at 200 yards.
Due to costs they were never a common issue. This sort of protection was usually for machinegunners who were the targets of the greatest mass of fire and of rifle grenade assaults.
Some Russian officers may have kept their breasplates from 1905, but the layered silk soft armor that was worn under it degraded too quickly to remain a feasible option.

Metal breastplates were the only option during WW2 due to lack of ballistic nylon. Some Ballistic Nylon helmet liners were issued to U S troops in the last months of the war.
The Japanese never issued the body armor on a regular basis, but enough Imperial Marine MG gunners, among other special assault troops and officers, wore it that it could be a decisive factor in a battle, and the U S military took note.
Tests were run by the U S Navy and a few prototype copies of the air commando armor were also tested to see if the U S should adopt a similar vest.
The Japanese had few pistol caliber SMGs so the vest being resistent to pistol caliber rounds was not enough reason for the US to adopt it.

Just as the Vietnam era vest gave little protection against rifle fire, but was worn anyway because it reduced the number of casualties from grenade fragments, the steel vests could have reduced casualties in similar situations, so despite vulnerability to rifle fire the soviets came up with their own vest which had the added value of being resistent to fire from the ever present German MP40 and other 9mm smgs used in street to street fighting.


The .45 ACP is a great man stopper because the large diameter heavy bullet gives up its energy quickly, its actual energy is about half that of the .30 carbine or less.
The .30 carbine in FMJ consentrated that energy on a smaller area and could walk right through any armor of the day.

Post WW2 the issue of body armor was enough of a factor that some Comboc countries began using a hopped up load for the PPSH that was a bit less powerful than the .30 but could penetrate body armor of its day.
Availability of body armor is one reason why few modern armies still issue SMGs for combat use, even in house clearing, though still effective in civilian police SWAT scenarios, prefering the shortened assault rifles.
Jihadist in Iraq often made a point of hitting police stations and carrying off any police body armor they could get.
A Jihadi safe house with vests set up in test cradles to determine their resistence to captured U S weapons was found early on.

Modern combat body armor is proof against the .30 carbine, but most concealable civilian and police vests are still vulnerable to the carbine round.

PS
The U S had tested a bolt action carbine in .45 ACP built on a 1903 action, to test whether the pistol round from a carbine was a viable option.
A Squad Auto version of the Thompson SMG was also developed, using a long cased higher velocity form of the .45 cartridge, it didn't catch on, though oddly the Japanese tried using captured Thompsons in that role on a very limited basis.

[Good Cheer]

Shucks, I'd settle for a little ol' high wall in .41 mag.
28" tapered octagonal. Tang sight.
Dream on.

[beagle]

Boy, ain't that the truth. I can see a lot of use for a .223 pump cast rifle using the old 20 shot M-16 magazine. What a plinker that would be with cast./beagle


if your going to ask that , i can ask why not more pump guns , it seems like it would be a very easy platform to build.

if manufactures can make pump 12 ga shotguns that can take the recoil of a 12ga 3 inch slugs , the pressure of a pistol cartridge carbine should be no problem , heck a .410 is already the right size for 45lc , so why don't we see a bunch of them.

[20nickels]

Check the Marlin owners site. The conversion has been done in ACP. 1894 I think.

[quasi]

Ed Harris had a 1894 Marlin in .45 Colt converted to .45 ACP. Don't you fella's ever visit the CBA forums?