Lee 45colt Delux Die Set

[newton]

I have a die set I am needing some help with.

Here is the link in case someone needs a 'visual' idea of what I am talking about.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/

Ok, so I am completely new to reloading pistol rounds. I have a 45colt Ruger BH. Everything seems to be looking good as far as chamber, throat, and bore dimensions. Along with that, the sizing die I use puts my boolits right at .452" Which is perfect for the gun dimensions.

On another thread I was talking about how I am experiencing leading. There are a few things that were the cause of this (really hard boolits and not enough lube) but someone also mentioned checking out whether or not my cases(with the help of the dies) were 'resizing' my boolits.

I checked it out this morning and sure enough I went through the process of loading a dummy round and when I pulled the boolit it had shrunk down to ~.4515"-.451".

So what exactly can I do to alleviate this issue? My first thought is to not size the case at all. I will have to wait till my gun gets back, but I am pretty positive it will fit in the chamber after being fired. With an unsized, once fired case, my boolit almost just drops in.

But then if I did that what about the crimping process? It seems to me that the factory crimper will cause the boolit to be squeezed down.

I am still going to play around with this, but I thought maybe someone else had already gone through this and knows of a quick fix for my issue.

[geargnasher]

First, you need case tension to retain the boolits under recoil in the revolver, the crimp is just he "icing" on the cake and doesn't do the majority of the work keeping the boolits still. You also need a certain amount of case tension for consistent burn pressures and that affects accuracy.

Second, if a weenie little, thin, low-pressure .45 Colt case is squeezing down your boolits and you're shooting smokless powder, your boolits are too soft. They don't need to be ridicuoulsly hard, but SEASONED, air-cooled wheel weight boolits are more than hard enough. You need to let them sit a week or two after casting so they can age-harden, wheel weights are usually pretty soft for a while after casting and can get squished if you load them too soon.

Third, Lee Carbide .45 Colt dies are hard on brass, tending to size it too small and really overwork it near the case head as well, if you notice your finished rounds might look like the have a "wasp waist" or hourglass shape to them. If I were you, I would buy an RCBS or Hornady .45 Colt sizing die (the carbon steel type that requires you to lube the cases), these are better sized for what you're doing.

Fourth, the Lee .45 Colt Powder Thru Expander die's expander spud is really just a bellmouth tool with a pilot, it's way too short and the "pilot" part is way too small for cast boolits, as is typical of most Lee expander dies. If you get the right sizer die, the Lee PTE die should work fine, but if you don't, you'll need to get an expander spud that actually EXPANDS the brass to about .002" smaller inside diameter than the boolit's diameter. That is mainly advice for cartridges with tough, hard, thick necks like .40 S&W, 9mm, etc., though, the proper sizing die will fix your woes. Look for RCBS "Cowboy" dies as I think they're called, they're made for overisized lead boolits but I think you'll have to buy the entire set, not just the sizer.

Gear

[newton]

Well the only thing worse than no news is bad news...

On a serious note though, I do not have the money to spend on another die set. I am going to have to figure out how to make this one work. I am not above modifying this one if it can be done. But there is just not any funds for another die set.

Boolits may just be too soft. I did use a 50/50 mix of lead/ww. And I just made them the other day. I cannot see how it would not squeeze them down a little though. The sizing die really narrows the case. I screwed it out till it was just sizing the top third of the case and it looked like it was turning into a bottle neck cartridge(not really, but a noticeable difference between where it was sized and not).

After thinking about it I am wondering if I could either open up the sizing die, or skip that and let the factory crimp die size it to the max specification for the round. I did not try that yet, I will when I get home tonight, but I know that the factory crimp die does give the cartridge one last size "check" while putting on a factory crimp.

If the once fired brass was just sized ever so slightly as to hold the boolit, and then the factory crimp die was used, it would receive a crimp and a snug "hug" from the case in the end.

But I am thinking that maybe the way to go is just to open up the sizing die some. Yes - No?

[462]

My experience with Lee handgun dies and boolits was always extremely frustrating. They are now someone else's headache. I've found Lyman dies to be the most boolit friendly, but use RCBS and Hornady dies, too.

Don't overlook the seater die, as the culprit that is putting the squeeze on your boolits. Also, do a search on the handgun carbide factory crimp die -- you may be surprised by what the members have to say, about it.

You may want to post a Swappin' & Sellin' thread offering to sell or trade the Lee dies for another brand.

[Swede44mag]

I HAD a set of Lee .357 mag dies that undersized the brass way too much they looked like the hourglass that geargnasher mentioned.
I sent a letter to LEE explaining the problem LEE's response was they NEVER made a set of dies that did what I mentioned.
I threw the LEE set in the trash and ordered a set from DILLION precision and had no more problems.
I hate to hear that you got a set of crappy dies from LEE but I am not surprised.

Good Luck

[LUBEDUDE]

As you have probably fiqured out and others have alluded too, the problem may be your 4th die- the factory crimp die. There seems to be a love, hate thing going on the forum with this die.
Some guys have had problems with the die swaging down the size of bullet smaller just like in your case.
I have never had any problems with my Lee Factory Crimp Dies (LFC). I pulled a 45 colt bullet and it stayed at .452. Now the rest of the die set is Dillon, maybe that is part of the puzzle, I don't know.

I would see it you could borrow a final crimp die from someone, other than a LFC, and see how your bullets measure out. My guess is you will be back at .452.

Like Gearnasher said- those RCBS Cowboy dies are really good, I have just discovered them myself and have converted many calibers over but 45 Colt which is next.

Good Luck

[LUBEDUDE]

Afterthought - if you fiqure out that the FCD is he problem and you do not want or can't get another crimp die; just knock out the carbide ring in the FCD, which is the culprit. The die will still crimp.

[newton]

I did more looking tonight. It is the full length sizing die giving me fits. It just sizes them too small. The rest of the dies are great. But there is not much you can do without a proper first sizing. I have never had this problem primaraly because all my other dies are neck sizers and all rifle rounds.

I am thinking with a little elbow grease the die will work. I can adjust all the other dies to not touch the case except for what I want. Same goes for the fcd. I tried it on a fired case and it did not change the diameter. It is supposed to only change it if it's beyond max specs, which they are not.

So I am thinking a little work with the one and I'll be in business again. I am just curious just how hard it will be to take some matterial out to get it to the size I need.

[LUBEDUDE]

Before you go taking material off that die, be 110 % sure.

Like Gearnasher said, it is doubtful that the brass is squeezing your bullets down.

By any chance when you seat your bullets in the case, are your getting shaved lead ?

It's easy to loose a thousandth if you are. That means you don't have enough bell to your case before bullet placement.

If no lead shavings and if your belling of the cases are right, I sure would look at the FCD a lot closer.

Just look at or do a search on Lee FCD on this Forum and you will find threads full of problems similar to yours all pointing to the FCD.

I not knocking the FCD, I happen to like all of mine and have no problems with any of them.

Good Luck

[newton]

Before you go taking material off that die, be 110 % sure.

Like Gearnasher said, it is doubtful that the brass is squeezing your bullets down.

By any chance when you seat your bullets in the case, are your getting shaved lead ?

It's easy to loose a thousandth if you are. That means you don't have enough bell to your case before bullet placement.

If no lead shavings and if your belling of the cases are right, I sure would look at the FCD a lot closer.

Just look at or do a search on Lee FCD on this Forum and you will find threads full of problems similar to yours all pointing to the FCD.

I not knocking the FCD, I happen to like all of mine and have no problems with any of them.

Good Luck

I hear you. I will check again tonight. But here is how my process has gone.

I take a fired case and place a sized boolit into the mouth. It falls through, down inside the case. So obviously I need to have it sized smaller. So then I think I will just barely size the mouth so it will hold the boolit and then run it through the factory crimp die, seeing how it is said to be the culprit of the downsizing.

I run it in the factory crimp die and nothing happens. I say that, but what did happen is it crimped the mouth into the crimp groove and held the boolit in place. But, the crimp was not a huge crimp and I could take the round and shake it and feel the boolit "rattling" (not extremely) in the case. So the absolute only thing holding the boolit in place was the crimp.

If the factory crimp die actually swagged the boolit down then I cannot see how the boolit would be loose. Maybe its just me, but unless you have some seriously hard boolits I can see how a very, very, tight case could squeeze the boolit down some when loading. The brass, in my opinion, is really not all that thin. Maybe its just the brass I have. And I am not ruling out that the boolits might be too soft. But I am aiming for the softer side rather than the harder.

When I seat a boolit there is no lead that is shaved off. I have adjusted the powder through expander to allow me to seat the boolit up to the first lube groove. Here is my thoughts though. Why work the brass any more than you absolutely need too? I am going to take some measurements of the sized brass versus the shot brass. Why size the brass down so much when it only needs to be done a little in order to hold the boolit? I can re-chamber a fired case into the cylinder just fine. There is no need to have them sized so small, unless I had another gun with extremely tight chambers. But being a Ruger, I am thinking they hold to specs pretty good.

So my mind is thinking that if I "ream"(really it will be lapping) the inside of the sizing die then it will not squeeze the brass so much. There is no expander in the sizing process, it is simply a round hole that the brass is pushed into and then pulled out of. I can ream it till it holds the boolit, but does not require so much of a bell/flare to seat the boolit. I would work a little at a time, doing a lot of tests along the way. And who knows, it may help improve case life from not being worked up and down so much.

But I am 100% positive its not the factory crimp die. I have read the other threads and that is not what is happening. I have to wonder though, because I do not use a progressive press or turret press. I know others do, and if you do one operation after another then you may come to the conclusion that the crimp die is the culprit. I dunno. But when I can take a fired case, slightly size the mouth to hold the boolit enough so it wont fall in, and then run it like that through the factory crimp die and it come out loose inside the case, then the factory crimp die I have is not even coming close to touching the case, much less swaggin a boolit down. It just provides a nice crimp at the mouth.

Has anyone ever reamed out a sizing die? Is it that hard?

[Old_School]

One of the Georgia guys is having the opposite problem. His bullets are practically falling into the case. Maybe you two need to get together and swap dies?

See this thread: http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/showthread.php?t=113079

[newton]

One of the Georgia guys is having the opposite problem. His bullets are practically falling into the case. Maybe you two need to get together and swap dies?

See this thread: http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/showthread.php?t=113079

Nice. But I think we would end up with the same problem...just on different ends. Haha

[geargnasher]

Newton, looks to me like your experiment with the FCD has proven it isn't the problem, it's the carbide ring in the sizer die that's the issue.

That was an interesting idea to try the FCD as a sizer die, but if you can run the top half of the case through it and the boolit still rattles around inside, that isn't going to cut it.

Tungsten carbide is hard stuff, I don't believe it is possible to lap it with common sandpaper. Partial sizing the brass has worked for me, just sizing the part where the boolit sits and using a decapping rod from a Lee universal decapping die (it's longer) set way down so I can "neck" size and decap at the same time. My boolits are usually a bit harder than yours, though. I usually shoot clip-on wheel weight alloy with a little tin added.

Basically it sounds like you have a pretty good grip on what you're trying to do, but the tooling isn't cooperating. Your only options are going to be to heat treat the 50/50 alloy you have by recasting and water-quenching, or by oven heat-treating them to make them harder, or to use a harder alloy, or to get a non-carbide sizer die when you can afford one.

Gear

[LUBEDUDE]

Newton, things are just not adding up

One thing we did not touch on. When you sized your bullets after casting; did you wait at least 24 hours before sizing them? As the bullets cool from casting they will very slowly shrink significantly for approximately 24 hours. After that, it becomes insignificant. Now of course the amout of shrinkage will also depend up the make up/mix of the alloy as well.

Think back if you can as to when you sized this batch.