accuracy standard at 100

[Little Joe]

Please tell me your accuracy standard at 100

[Char-Gar]

Accuracy standards depend on which rifle and for what use?

[Nickle]

Chargar, you just read my mind.

One of my personal standards is the RWVA Rifleman Standard. That's 4 MOA. Think 20 inches at 500 meters. The wifth of a human body, though we're not militia types. Many of us are ex-military over there, and we practice on the 25 meter reduced Army Qualification Course, usually using Battle Rifles (though almost anything could be used, and welcome). The standard for decent shooting on that is 4 MOA, or 1 inch at 25 meters.

[RU shooter]

Me personally If my Milsurp rifles will shoot better than regular ball ammo that it was designed to shoot ,Im a happy camper .Basicly 3-4 moa with open sights works for me.

[Larry Gibson]

Little Joe

Got to agree with Charger and others; Accuracy standard? it depends. Perhaps a better querry would be to establish a 100 yard accuracy criteria for rifles; 3, 5 or 10 shot groups? Then establish a descriptive measurement; (suggesting only as an example) 1 MOA or under = excellent, 1.1 to 2.5 MOA = good, 2.6 to 4 MOA = OK and over 4 MOA as "keep trying".

Larry Gibson

[joeb33050]

This is what I use:
In reasonable conditions, shooting cast bullets, from a good bench rest position, shooting two five shot groups and sighters/foulers at 100 yards in fifteen minutes or less, using a telescopic sight:
-An average for five groups of five shots of between 1.5 and 2 inches is good accuracy-suitable for most offhand shooting.
-An average between 1 and 1.5 inches is excellent accuracy- suitable for the best offhand shooting and good bench rest shooting.
-An average of one inch or less is superior accuracy- rifle/load combinations achieving this will frequently place “in the money” at bench rest matches.

An experienced shooter can do almost as well with good iron sights.
My experience is that most any rifle in good condition will shoot average 2" groups or better. Sometimes a long search, but they'll do it.
In the long run, shooting 5 5 shot groups, the smaller group in the 5 will be half the size of the larger group. Hence, one five shot group proves nothing, unless it's WAY big.

At the 2006 CBA Nationals in Oregon, for the 100 yard five shot group competitors who finished all the five shot matches and excluding the Long Range Hand gunners-all other classes-, the average five shot 100 yard group was .990".
joe brennan

[waksupi]

With a scope, my .358 Win's will go into an inch, for ten shots. With apertures, generally, around 2" or less. Eyes are the limiting factor for me. This is my most accurate bore size, although my Sharps will stay in about 1.5" with the Soule sights.

[Little Joe]

I am looking for one inch groups but I not got them yet?People have told me cast will shoot with a jacketed bullet but I have found they wont.Ive shot with a bunch of cast bullet shooters too.Yoe will hear big stories from them but when it comes down to it at the range the results are always the same.

My two and two and one half inch groups are ok for these free bullets but I was in hopes for more.

I will just keep blasting the cast out there until I get the results I am looking for.

Out of here Little Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I am looking for one inch groups but I not got them yet?People have told me cast will shoot with a jacketed bullet but I have found they wont.Ive shot with a bunch of cast bullet shooters too.Yoe will hear big stories from them but when it comes down to it at the range the results are always the same.

My two and two and one half inch groups are ok for these free bullets but I was in hopes for more.

I will just keep blasting the cast out there until I get the results I am looking for.

Out of here Little Joe

Joe,

It all depends. I tried to think of a definition since we all have something different in mind.

A pretty good rule of thumb for cast bullet accuracy is you can expect what your rifle will do with jacketed on a consistent basis. You won't be able to reach those velocities in a lot of cases, but peak to peak accuracy ought to be very close.

Scoped or open sights, if you shoot 4" groups with jacketed, then you ought to see 4" from cast. If you get one hole with jacketed each and every day, then you ought to be able to come real close with cast on a fairly consistent basis once you learn what you are doing and get things ironed out.

In some calibers and rifle types, cast will actually outperform jacketed mostly because of less heat from bore friction. So rifle types, like levers, that don't have one piece bedded stocks to control barrel vibration, can shoot better with cast once you get them set up correctly. Hell, I got a Marlin 44 Mag I am working on that is 1" now on a fairly consistent basis and sometimes MUCH better. Rivals some bolt guns as long as I take my time and give the barrel a chance to cool. Don't do those things and it's 2".

Top 5 reasons I see for guys having problems with cast:

1. Failure to clean all the copper out prior to getting started. (Impatience)

2. Poor bullet design / weight for the throat / rifling configuration.

3. Poor bullet fit when they do get a good design.

4. Impatience reloading. More care IS required than loading jacketed. (Crappy quality ammo is probably the biggest reason over all) Try explaining that one to an "expert" reloader!

5. Less concentration shooting because cast is cheap and fun compared to expensive jacketed where you work at good groups.

98% of the game of cast is "patience" and solving problems that "WE" create. Familiarity breeds complacency. Why I regularly find myself guilty of creating problems from time to time.

Personally, after I review each of those 5 problem areas, if it's a rifle and won't hold 1", I take some action to lap or scrap the barrel if it's a cast gun. Bolt, lever, whatever. A bad rifle should shoot cast well at cast velocities. In my mind, the difference between a so so cast rifle and a good one is at what velocity range the accuracy remains up to.

[KCSO]

For scoped rifles I want at least 1 1/2" at 100 yards. For iron sights I am looking for 2 1/2" as that is about all my eyes are really good far any more. In days past I figured a peep ought to group as well as a scope but not any more. In military rifles with standard sights anything under 3" is good to go.

[joeb33050]

I am looking for one inch groups but I not got them yet?People have told me cast will shoot with a jacketed bullet but I have found they wont.Ive shot with a bunch of cast bullet shooters too.Yoe will hear big stories from them but when it comes down to it at the range the results are always the same.

My two and two and one half inch groups are ok for these free bullets but I was in hopes for more.

I will just keep blasting the cast out there until I get the results I am looking for.

Out of here Little Joe

Jacketed bullets are more accurate than cast, almost always. Particularly target bullets in those green boxes. You can take a new Savage 12 and shoot jacketed bullets into 1" or less real quick. 5,5 shot 100 yard groups. The modern BR records demonstrate the superior accuracy of modern jacketed bullets. I don't know what you're shooting 2 1/2" groups from with cast. Anything other than a modern good condition bolt gun is a crap shoot.
Jacketed bullet accuracy is the goal, in CB shooting. One of the big unanswered questions is: "Why don't CBs shoot as accurately as Jacketed?". I think that many of us are searching for the answer.
joe brennan

[45 2.1]

Jacketed bullets are more accurate than cast, almost always. Particularly target bullets in those green boxes. You can take a new Savage 12 and shoot jacketed bullets into 1" or less real quick. 5,5 shot 100 yard groups. The modern BR records demonstrate the superior accuracy of modern jacketed bullets. I don't know what you're shooting 2 1/2" groups from with cast. Anything other than a modern good condition bolt gun is a crap shoot.
Jacketed bullet accuracy is the goal, in CB shooting. One of the big unanswered questions is: "Why don't CBs shoot as accurately as Jacketed?". I think that many of us are searching for the answer.
joe brennan

Joe-
If what you say is true, then how did this happen?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14470

[Little Joe]

I working on it too.

Just picked up another 1000 lbs of lead yesterday.My total weight of wheel weights,type metal and soft lead is over 3000 lbs now.I hope i can get some one inch groups before I use all this lead up.

Out of here,
Little Joe

[Boomer Mikey]

Too many variables exist to give a single answer to this question.

Would it be fair to say that good groups with Jword bullets are twice as easy to obtain? Not really, it depends there too.

I have a Marlin 1895 cowboy in 45-70 that shoots cast so well it’s scary. I didn't need to work very hard to get it to shoot 1" or better groups but it does... with plain base bullets too. Why? - The bore and chamber were perfect. Pushing a pure lead slug though the bore was unremarkable with a small amount of taper to a perfect crown at the muzzle. My Marlin 38-55 cowboy is almost as good with 1-1/2” groups and a less than perfect bore with a slight constriction at the receiver end of the barrel due to thread crush and a ding in one of the lands at the crown.

My experience is somewhat limited to the 35, 38, 44 and 45 calibers with cast because they rank high on my fun meter (lever guns) and life's too short to fool around with stuff that isn't fun.

I've tried to "make" cheap, standard production guns shoot cast using 1" groups as a standard of comparison at 100 yards and I was disappointed with my results for years. I thought I knew enough to make it happen, but I didn't know beans about it then.

I read Veral Smith’s book and found it confusing and too technical at the time. For me, Marshall Stanton's book (Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide) unlocked the door to success. Not that I followed every word as gospel but Marshall’s description about barrel condition made a connection for me that Veral’s book didn’t. Since then, learning how to use a micrometer correctly, slugging bores, making pound slugs of chambers and taking careful measurements has provided answers needed to make a reasonable evaluation of a particular gun’s potential with cast bullets.

After fire lapping a few very rough guns and fitting bullets to those guns then evaluating a few more guns with a minimalist approach to fire lapping did I come to following conclusions:

Until you understand the relationship of bullet fit, chamber, and bore condition, success will be a matter of luck and/or disappointment.

If you aren’t going to take/make measurements for each gun, clean/lap the barrel to produce a smooth clean surface, then size/fit bullets to the gun’s chamber/bore expect lazy accuracy.

Lousy, corncob rough barrels with constrictions can improve dramatically with a minimal amount of fire lapping or hand lapping.

Shooting jacketed bullets to smooth a rough bore does nothing for rough grooves.

Bad/undersize chambers and/or 0.400” long throats = bad accuracy.

Now you get to become a modern marvel of reloading consistency with attention to fine details, but that’s another chapter in the quest for 1” groups with cast bullets.

Then there’s the shooter, another variable in the equation. If a gun is capable of shooting 2-1/2" groups consistently, can the shooter consistently shoot 2-1/2” groups? There was a time when I could shoot 5 or more 1”, 100 yard groups in a row but no more. Having a friend loan you his rifle that he shot 3 sub 1” groups in a row with, and watching yourself double the size of those groups can be an experience to remember, or worse, having your buddy shoot ½” groups with your 1” grouping rifle.

So, what’s the answer to the original question? It depends on your own opinion of what works for you. I agree with Larry Gibson's comments about accuracy standards but enjoy trying to achieve the impossible.

There are good days and better days at the range and matches but lousy groups and missed targets are better than no groups and no targets to shoot at.

Boomer :Fire:

[SharpsShooter]

Many variables in the answer, but for apeture sights at 100 with BPCR, I like to see under 2". With optics, anything over an inch gets more work to get it down to MOA. That is with the 10 shot group standard applied. For K98's and such, under 2 MOA is typically very good, but if using glass, I revert back to striving for the 1" wonder. Leverguns get a bit of latitude, but so far I have not been disappointed too badly. My 1895 will stay in 2" on a regular basis when I do my part. That is easily in the 4-5 MOA at 200yds and that is farther than most shots at game in this area, excluding groundhogs of course.

SS

[1Shirt]

Got to agree with Larry Gibson, particularly when it comes to defining accuracy with 3,5, and 10 shot groups. Some of the old timers used to shoot as much as 50 shot groups. Have seen reprints of some of them that were under 2". I have shot 25 shot groups just to determine consistancy with a couple of rifles including a good 222, and was pleased when it and I stayed under 2". The consistancy of the loads have a major part of accuracy, but when the number of shots fired into a group goes up, it is my experiance that the size of the group will go up as well.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[45 2.1]

After fire lapping a few very rough guns and fitting bullets to those guns then evaluating a few more guns with a minimalist approach to fire lapping did I come to following conclusions:

Until you understand the relationship of bullet fit, chamber, and bore condition, success will be a matter of luck and/or disappointment. This is very true. Too many people try different boolits and components trying to find what the old scheutzen shooters called their trick which when found was closely guarded.

If you aren’t going to take/make measurements for each gun, clean/lap the barrel to produce a smooth clean surface, then size/fit bullets to the gun’s chamber/bore expect lazy accuracy.
Usually true, but boolit alloy changes can be a big help here.

Lousy, corncob rough barrels with constrictions can improve dramatically with a minimal amount of fire lapping or hand lapping.
Yep

Shooting jacketed bullets to smooth a rough bore does nothing for rough grooves. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Bad/undersize chambers and/or 0.400” long throats = bad accuracy. These can be beat.

Now you get to become a modern marvel of reloading consistency with attention to fine details, but that’s another chapter in the quest for 1” groups with cast bullets. Balancing the load for the conditions you put forth in the load will do wonders.

So, what’s the answer to the original question? It depends on your own opinion of what works for you. I agree with Larry Gibson's comments about accuracy standards but enjoy trying to achieve the impossible. It's not impossible! Understanding the whole thing though is problematical for a lot of people. In most any rifle, any group over 5 shots is not testing accuracy so much as learning what to do to maintain a reasonable group when your barrel is heating up and starting to walk. Very few barrels are stable at this point. If you use a spotting scope and shoot one shot every 30 seconds to a minute for 3 to 10 shot groups, you will see about the same group and individual shot placement for any numbered shot in the subsequent groups if you technique is good.

There are good days and better days at the range and matches but lousy groups and missed targets are better than no groups and no targets to shoot at. :mrgreen:

Boomer :Fire:

[Dale53]

I didn't take the poll. I would "take gas" if my Schuetzen rifle averaged much over ½" at 100 yards. However, my standard for pistols and revolvers is 1" at 25 yards. I don't always reach it...

If I shot cast in a military rifle, I would be happy with 2" (with a scope) or so. MY TC Pistols will shoot to the limit of my seeing (with a 2 power scope about the best I can do is 1.5-2" at 100 yards - that is about the limit of what I can see).

So, it all depends on what a person is using and what is the purpose of the exercise...

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

It depends on what type of rifle we're talking about. An iron-sighted levergun giving 2" groups with castings at 100 yards would be GREAT, EXEMPLARY. A scoped bolt gun doing the same thing might not be so impressive. So when my CZ-550 places five 270 grain flatnoses going 1700 FPS into 1.25" repeatedly at 100 yards, I am a pretty happy shooter. Similarly, when unscaled/eyeballed boolits go between 1.00" and 1.25" at 100 yards from my ragged old Rem 788 in 243, life is good. Most of my rifles aren't quite that good--and I certainly am not.

[joeb33050]

Joe-
If what you say is true, then how did this happen?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14470

How? It's called "shot luck".
Most people shoot smaller groups than I do.
I'm eager to pay $25 for a target for the book cover. A cast bullet target, any sights, 5 shots, 5 groups, 100 yards, averaging under 1.5", with description of the load and rifle.
I just reviewed the 2006-2002 CBA National Match results, and it is clear, at least to me, that it is fairly difficult to average <.6" for four 5 shot 100 yard SS rifle plain based bullet groups. The average of the averages is much larger.
It is also clear, at least, again, to me, that it is difficult to average <1" for four 5 shot "Production" class rifle groups.
All under CBA N. match conditions.
Averages are different from those "wallet" groups.
I just got back from the range, and tomorrow will post the groups I shot today. I think it would be interesting to see the results, in one place, of our shooting.
joe brennan

[doc25]

Joe,

It all depends. I tried to think of a definition since we all have something different in mind.

A pretty good rule of thumb for cast bullet accuracy is you can expect what your rifle will do with jacketed on a consistent basis. You won't be able to reach those velocities in a lot of cases, but peak to peak accuracy ought to be very close.

Scoped or open sights, if you shoot 4" groups with jacketed, then you ought to see 4" from cast. If you get one hole with jacketed each and every day, then you ought to be able to come real close with cast on a fairly consistent basis once you learn what you are doing and get things ironed out.

In some calibers and rifle types, cast will actually outperform jacketed mostly because of less heat from bore friction. So rifle types, like levers, that don't have one piece bedded stocks to control barrel vibration, can shoot better with cast once you get them set up correctly. Hell, I got a Marlin 44 Mag I am working on that is 1" now on a fairly consistent basis and sometimes MUCH better. Rivals some bolt guns as long as I take my time and give the barrel a chance to cool. Don't do those things and it's 2".

Top 5 reasons I see for guys having problems with cast:

1. Failure to clean all the copper out prior to getting started. (Impatience)

2. Poor bullet design / weight for the throat / rifling configuration.

3. Poor bullet fit when they do get a good design.

4. Impatience reloading. More care IS required than loading jacketed. (Crappy quality ammo is probably the biggest reason over all) Try explaining that one to an "expert" reloader!

5. Less concentration shooting because cast is cheap and fun compared to expensive jacketed where you work at good groups.

98% of the game of cast is "patience" and solving problems that "WE" create. Familiarity breeds complacency. Why I regularly find myself guilty of creating problems from time to time.

Personally, after I review each of those 5 problem areas, if it's a rifle and won't hold 1", I take some action to lap or scrap the barrel if it's a cast gun. Bolt, lever, whatever. A bad rifle should shoot cast well at cast velocities. In my mind, the difference between a so so cast rifle and a good one is at what velocity range the accuracy remains up to.

Sorry I'd have to add a sixth reason.

6. Saved so much money shooting cast I bought a few extra beer the night before and drank them!:drinks: .

I have shot under 1 moa groups with my enfield (scoped, 3shot) I can't do that with irons anymore even at my young age.

I would be happy with 3" groups with irons at 100 but .... I would be happy with that with J boolits (I'm not talking peep sights here but standard military sights). I'm sure some calibers lend themselves to cast boolits better like 30+ caliber but for me the quest is to get a decent accuracy/power ratio regardless of bullet type.

[jeff223]

Veral Smith makes claims of jacketed boolit accuracy with cast boolits.
i have shot some 1 inch goups out at 100yds with my 357max Contender but cast arnt very concistant to do it over and over.thats why i go back to jacketed boolits for hunting.

Ranch Dog does very well with cast boolits too.i hope the 35cal Ranch Dog boolits will shoot to my likings and i might just trust them in the field this year.if not i know where there is a box of Hornady 180gr XTPs

[joeb33050]

..... However, my standard for pistols and revolvers is 1" at 25 yards. I don't always reach it...

Dale53

I'm no pistol shooter, but have been working on ways to bench pistols to approximate a Ransom Rest, and have a pretty good setup. I'll try to add a picture.
With a scoped Ruger MK II, the last few times out, 10 shots at 50 yards, averages: 1.795" 5 groups CCI S.V.;
1.628:, 10 groups, Rem Target
Then at 100 yards, 10 shots, averages:
3.765", 5 groups;
3.970", 5 groups;
3.869", 4 groups
I have had much worse luck with the scoped M29, with all 50 yard groups 6 shots averaging 3.386", and the "best five shots" averaging 2.365"
There's a lot of variation between groups in a set, there's a lot of variation in where the bullets hit in a 5, 6 or 10 shot string (a tendency for the first shot to be out of the group) and there's a lot of variation from day to day with the same gun and ammo.
Even with my setup, consistent and proper technique has a great deal to do with group size.
When we consider an accuracy standard, or are talking about "accuracy", we need to define the kind of gun, load, rest, sights, # of groups, # of shots per group, maybe more.
Dale's 1" 25 yard standard with a good target pistol in a good rest setup with a scope and 5 shot groups appears to me, from what little I know, to be achievable.
OTOH, from sandbags, 6 shot groups from an iron sighted revolver seems to me to be very difficult for, say, 5 group averages.
joe brennan

[45 2.1]

How? It's called "shot luck".

Hahahahaha, your a funny guy Joe. I here that from anyone who believes no one can do better than they can do or what they've seen done. I also don't see that the CBA records are the best that can be done. A lot of cliques in that organization and yes, I belong to it also. You just go along your way doing your thing and i'll do mine.

[joeb33050]

I hope these work.
joe b.

[oso]

At this point I'm happy with a load that consistently gets 2" 10 shot groups at 100 yds with my scoped 788 with shooting sticks for a rest. Maybe I should be working on a making a good bench?

[Pat I.]

For scoped rifles I want at least 1 1/2" at 100 yards. For iron sights I am looking for 2 1/2" as that is about all my eyes are really good far any more. In days past I figured a peep ought to group as well as a scope but not any more. In military rifles with standard sights anything under 3" is good to go.

I like this one the best. attainable, repeatable, usable, and you don't have to start packing up to leave if the guys you've been telling what a great shot you are show up.

[quickshot]

my requirements are if the rifle has glass...1 moa or better period. Irons (peep/as issued) 2-3 moa or so. I approach each rifle with a specific goal in mind. I mostly shoot milsurps and I hunt paper (but hope to hunt flesh soon). YMMV

[mike in co]

WHILE I DID VOTE, i only shoot paper and steel.
if i hunted i think 3 shot groups are ok ( cause you aint getting the 4th or 5 th shot anyway).
every one else should be shooting 5 or 10 shot groups..........

just my two cents worth....

and yes my casts have shot sub moa.....ask 45nut about "my" trophy.....lol

[gray wolf]

This is all very interesting but I have a ?

How come I can shoot my 26 inch barrel black powder rifle with 480 grain cast lead bullets
and get 5-10 shots at 50 yards with all holes contacting each other.
One ragged hole. 70 grains of pyro p and my cast bullet. I swab after each shot.

This is not to mix apples and corn or be asked to leave for mixing the two.
but hey It's a cast bullet going through a rifle barrel.
No wise guy here---what am I missing.

[mike in co]

This is all very interesting but I have a ?

How come I can shoot my 26 inch barrel black powder rifle with 480 grain cast lead bullets
and get 5-10 shots at 50 yards with all holes contacting each other.
One ragged hole. 70 grains of pyro p and my cast bullet. I swab after each shot.

This is not to mix apples and corn or be asked to leave for mixing the two.
but hey It's a cast bullet going through a rifle barrel.
No wise guy here---what am I missing.


you missed the part that said ....100 yards.....

i can make one hole groups at 50 all day long......100 is a different story.....

[Pat I.]

Besides 50 more yards look at it like this. Shoot 3 45 caliber bullets where the edges are just touching. Since the furthest two bullets are .460 apart your group is already almost a half an inch from the start. To measure groups you go from center to center of the farthest shots so add another .460 and you're at .920 for the 3 shot group and it's a ragged but angular hole. Pile a few more in there that open the group a little more while still touching an existing hole and getting up to an inch and a half isn't that hard to do.

[gray wolf]

ok I was just wondering thats all.

[mike in co]

Besides 50 more yards look at it like this. Shoot 3 45 caliber bullets where the edges are just touching. Since the furthest two bullets are .460 apart your group is already almost a half an inch from the start. To measure groups you go from center to center of the farthest shots so add another .460 and you're at .920 for the 3 shot group and it's a ragged but angular hole. Pile a few more in there that open the group a little more while still touching an existing hole and getting up to an inch and a half isn't that hard to do.

hmmm
in my world( and the competition matches i shoot in) while group is center to center..it cannot be physically measured that way since the "centers" are gone...they are holes. there are two std methods used to measure, one: measure outside edge to edge of the two furthest holes LESS BULLET DIA, and two: several companies market an optical device to go over the close hole and then an attached caliper measures to the outside of the furthest hole. direct read of the caliper is group size( bullet dia is built into the optical center...yes there is a different center for each bullet dia)....
having said all that ...all i was pointing out is you do NOT add back in the the bullet dia in a center to center group measurement......in my world.


mike

[Scrounger]

In my usual lazy manner I measure groups this way: I select the two holes farthest apart, measure from the outside edge of one to the inside edge of the other. That gives me group size with no other math necessary. This works perfectly in most cases, only in groups where there isn't at least one full distinct hole separated from the others is there a problem.

[Larry Gibson]

Seems this has gone from a question of "accuracy standard" to "what accuracy is expected from your rifle or handgun". Two different things but that's ok with me. My first post was in response to the "accuracy standard". This post will deal with the second.

First of all lets discuss the range at which we test. To test at 50 yards when the closest target in a match is 200 yards is meaningless. To test hunting loads at 50 yards when you may shoot at 200 yards is also meaningless. Testing a load at the farthest distance we may shoot is best but is time consuming and introduces many other factors that adversely effect accuracy and have nothing to do with the load.

For rifles I find that 100 yards is the best distance for testing. Most ranges are set up for that distance with benches. The wind and other variables can easier be considered and/or dealt with. I find with most rifle bullets that a load which shoots well at 100 yards will shoot well beyond. Conversely many loads that shoot well at 50 yards do not do well at 100 yards let alone at farther distance. However, for those loads that are for plinking or close range small game hunting then 50 yards is a good distance to test but I always shoot them at 100 yards to see if they hold accuracy.

For handguns with iron sights I test at 25 or 50 yards depending on the cartridge and load. I'm mostly using 50 yards for actual load development but will use 25 yards for a "twice around the cylinder" test.

For handguns (Contenders and magnum revolvers) with scopes I test at 50 yards then confirm the best loads grouping at 100 yards.

I've had chronographs (Oehlers) since '75 and all my load developement is shot over the screens.

Now as to what is expected accuracy wise. I've very few firearms that I do not shoot jacketed bullets in. Thus I establish that firearms accuracy capability with its sights and my skill level using quality hunting bullets. If it is a target rifle I use match bullets. I then expect to equal that level of accuracy that was attained with hunting bullets using cast bullets. I do not expect to equal the velocity though with some cartridges that is also possible. With target rifles I do not expect to equal accuracy but to come close. This is because I do not get to anal (would "fastidious" be a better word?) in my cast bullet loading. Well that may not be quite correct; I do sometimes get anal and weigh bullets, inspect for defects uner a magnifying glass, weigh powder charges. super prep cases, orient bullets in sizer, cases, chamber, etc. ad nauseum.

Let me give an example; I'm loading for an '06 with a 3x9 power scope which shoots 180 SPBTs at 2780 fps into 1 - 1.25" groups at 100 yards most any day. I'm loading 311291 cast of ACWWs + 5% tin over 4895 with a dacron fillet in fire formed cases. I expect to develope a load that will shoot 1 1/2 -2" groups at 100 yards most any day.

Another example; A Yugo M48 in standard military stock (bedding is ok) with an excellent bore having issue sights. The rifle shoots 3-4" groups with milsurp ammo and 2" groups with the best of bullets. With 323471 or the new GD 195 gr bullet over 4895 with a dacron filler in fireformed cases I expect to get 2-2 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

With my M94 lever action 30-30 I can equal factory ammo accuracy and velocity with 311041 over 4895. The rifle has a Lyman aperture rear sight and a post front sight. I can pretty much shoot 2-3" groups any time at 100 yards these days. I used to do better but my eyes don't work that well with the short sight radius anymore. When I put the Burris 1.5X scout scope on the M94 shell do 2 - 2 1/2" with sometimes a sub 2" 5 shot group.

My Match M1903 with Lyman aperture sights (front and rear) will put 22 shots (2 sighters plus 20 for record in a match) of 175 gr MKs over Varget into 2.5" at 200 yards with regularity. With 311299 over 4895 and dacron filler it will put 22 shots into 3.5" at the same 200 yards. I do get kind of anal when loading that load for that rifle. That same load shoots 1.5" at 100 yards. I find that cast loads will open up at longer ranges (200 - 600 yards) more so than quality jacketed bullets.

Larry Gibson

[mike in co]

In my usual lazy manner I measure groups this way: I select the two holes farthest apart, measure from the outside edge of one to the inside edge of the other. That gives me group size with no other math necessary. This works perfectly in most cases, only in groups where there isn't at least one full distinct hole separated from the others is there a problem.



lol in my groups...there is no "inside" edge......you know when there is just one big hole....
lol.....right....

[Scrounger]

lol in my groups...there is no "inside" edge......you know when there is just one big hole....
lol.....right....

With those types of groups I use the coin system; you know, penny, nickel, dime, quarter, half, and dollar. If a silver dollar won't cover it, I go to the fruit system; plum, orange, grapefruit (these are California sizes), and watermelon. Actually, when it outgrows a grapefruit it isn't a group anymore but a pattern...

[Pat I.]

[QUOTE=mike in co;239511]hmmm
in my world( and the competition matches i shoot in) while group is center to center..it cannot be physically measured that way since the "centers" are gone...they are holes. there are two std methods used to measure, one: measure outside edge to edge of the two furthest holes LESS BULLET DIA, and two: several companies market an optical device to go over the close hole and then an attached caliper measures to the outside of the furthest hole. direct read of the caliper is group size( bullet dia is built into the optical center...yes there is a different center for each bullet dia)....
having said all that ...all i was pointing out is you do NOT add back in the the bullet dia in a center to center group measurement......in my world.


mike[/QUOTE

I guess in hindsite I should have added that the three touching holes were strung in a row but figured everyone would get the drift.

If you use my example with 45 cal. bullets and measured out side edge to outside edge you'd come up with 3 x .460 which equals 1.380. Your then going to subract a half of bullet hole from each side to get center which will equal 1 bullet diameter so 1.380 - .460 = .920, which is what I said. I only mentioned the center hole to illustrate that you could start out with a group with all the bullet holes touching but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a real small group.
If you're using one of the optical measurers that attach to a caliper once the plastic guage (for lack of a better word) is layed over the target and the bullet hole's centered in the closest sized circle you don't have to subtract anything because your as close to center as your going to get with a plastic tool and the human eye. Even at that if you get two guys to measure the same target chances are you'll get two different answers. Not many guys have one of these things so outside to outside minus 1 bullet diameter gets you pretty close.

[felix]

Outside to outside minus 1 bullet diameter gets you exacty the group size as can be measured. Either the scanner or the eyeball will have a problem, so there are many answers due to the third decimal place variance. ... felix

[mike in co]

i will grant you that there are limits of the eyeball...but its very small.
in true benchrest competition....targets are measured by the second method or similar, and then checked. when a record is believed to be set the targets are sent off to a committee.......it is actually amazing the small variation one comes up with when you have done it a few( hundred) times. br results are often seen in 4 decimal places.....this is an average of 5 three decimal targets......not an actual 4th decimal measurement.
and for the record a 308 bullet/or boolit does not always make a 308 dia hole......lots of variables there....but it is accepted as part of the game.

your 'ACCURACY" is your guns average...not the one time wonder group.


and since when is a 45 460 ??? 452 and 454 but not seen a 460 actual dia ???

[Pat I.]

Cmon lets not get goofy here. 45 cal rifles are .458 so I just rounded up to .460 to make it easy. The guy's shooting a 480 gr bullet so I just assumed it wasn't a handgun. I know i know assuming things gets you in trouble.

I was the director of registered competition for the CBA for 5 years so measured a lot of potential record targets. After a while the groups got so small, and I got so lazy, that I implemented something along the lines of jacketed BR competition where 3 guys measured the groups and the average was the result. It was the same three guys every time and they all had good solid equipment and the difference went a little farther than the 4th digit. To think that you're going to be able to measure two holes in a piece of paper to the 4th digit is a pipe dream since getting an accurate reading to the 2nd is more voodoo than science.

If people are going to get so anal about a couple of thousandths you're gonna to take the fun right out of this stuff.

[Newtire]

Top 5 reasons I see for guys having problems with cast:

1. Failure to clean all the copper out prior to getting started. (Impatience)

2. Poor bullet design / weight for the throat / rifling configur

4. Impatience reloading. More care IS required than loading jacketed. (Crappy quality ammo is probably the biggest reason over all) Try explaining that one to an "expert" reloader!

5. Less concentration shooting because cast is cheap and fun compared to expensive jacketed where you work at good groups.

98% of the game of cast is "patience" and solving problems that "WE" create. Familiarity breeds complacency. Why I regularly find myself guilty of creating problems from time to time.



I find the thiing about patience and care being my downfall or savior depending on which way I loaded the ammo. I get fairly good results with mass loaded .30 carbine for instance but if I make sure things are the same in each load, I can shrink those groups from 2" to 1" @ 50 yds. Certain boolits shoot better in certain guns because they fit. My .30-30's seem to shoot cast better. The RCBS 165 silhouette shoots great in a M70 and an FN .30-06 but not in a Springfield. The 311290 shoots great in the Springfield but not that great in the M-70 or FN. There's the matter of taking your sweet time and loading a cast bullet with all cases trimmed equal length, same brass (of course). I haven't been able to beat my best J-word group yet and don't expect to but can certainly come close. Just take time to do all the things people do with jacketted and use a good lube, bullet fits bore and good design to begin with-yeah...all the things Bass already said.:drinks:

[David R]

Holy cow, I haven't been here in a while. I read almost da whole thing.

To answer the original question, for ME 1" @ 50 yards is what I expect. My savage 24V will do that with cast. It turns into 4" to 6" at 100 yards. That is my worse one. I have 2 scoped rifles that will approach 1" at 100. Just enough to tease me.

David

[williamwaco]

"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

Townsend Whelen (March 6, 1877 - December 23, 1961)

Colonel, United States Army.
Contributing editor to
Sports Afield,
American Rifleman,
Field and Stream,
Outdoor Life,
Guns and Ammo,
and other magazines.
Author of Telescopic Rifle Sights,
The Hunting Rifle,
Small Arms and Ballistics,
Hunting Big Game,
and Why Not Load Your Own.


Those are credentials I am not going to question.

IMO 2" = "Minute of soup can"

[Newtire]

really depends on rifle as has been said. I think just around an inch is great for big game type bolt gun. Less than that for target rifle .257 I have. Winchester lever action rifle, hoping for 2" but 3" will do.

[Harter66]

My old man gives me hell for being content w/1 1/2 ""j" groups at 100 ,well I pulled my hair out to get the hunting rifle I could afford to shoot those little bitty groups. Somewhere in my stuff I've the targets from 3 days, a hot dry afternoon,warm wet morning,and a not quite cold typical sunrise,each are 5 shots inch are less than 1.1 outside ............................. somewhere along the way some "old guy" pointed out that those were amazing .8" groups , not really needed for the hunting field unless I planned on shooting well over 400yd and computing drop in feet for every shot ..............in the field,rain,snow,wind,heat,cold. Something clicked that day when I resized I'm not taking that 400yd shot that I may or may not be able to make simply because if I muck it up I might follow that animal for a day or more only to find it ruined and/or half eaten by something else, then explain to a warden, why I'm all bloodied up w/a fresh carcass Monday night after the season closed. I intend to take my next big game animal w/cast ,so I expect my boolits,rifle,and self to meet the 2" standard every time.

Have you ever overlaid all of your targets from 1 gun for, in my case,5 range sessions w/say a dozen different loads, centered on a separate target? When I did that I "discovered" a 4" group of over 100 rounds . It is my believe that many of us are so fixed on that tiny little cluster that over look our and our loads/rifles abilities until some "old guy" says some magic phrase that hits home like a brick through a plate glass window. Thanks to all the old guys!

[Dframe]

With my old eyes and even older 45/70 rifle I can hit minute of deer at 100 yards. Probably about 3 inches with iron sights.

[bowfin]

I prefer my scoped big game rifles hold a 1½" three shot group. That's not so hard to do, and I find I am chasing after rainbows instead of practicing my offhand shooting if I try for much more.

Varmint rifles, for coyotes and/or prairie dogs, I woul prefer a scoped rifle that can shoot MOA or better for three shots.

I usually find that most rifles will shoot better than I can, although there has been a few disappointments to that rule.

[Echo]

Actually, no standard. Just the best Professor Gun will shoot, given as much experimentation as I choose to indulge in.

[Canuck Bob]

I like to be able to hit a moose. When I was younger it was a 6" baby moon hubcap, remember those, I carried in my woods loafing pack and hung from trees. I've always lived near and worked in abundant Crown forest.

That would be about 3 MOA, usually off hand or field rest as available. Also point of aim and impact had to be the same within the trajectory curve when shooting paper. A 1" group 3.5" high at a 100 yards is a bunch of misses in hunting. The best group peppers the target center from point blank to 200 yards, my limit for hunting. That is when load, rifle and shooter are dialed in and deadly.

When I scoped my 444 Marlin it printed tight 100 yard 3 shot groups, say 1 1/2-2 inches. When I went back to my peep the Williams wasn't as fool proof as they brag about!

Standards then, 2-3 MOA to 200 meters under field conditions, 3-5 shot group from a cold barrel, and the understanding of the loads trajectory and training to put the group in the center of the target from point blank to max range. From what I've studied this is achievable and my goal with cast bullets and some broad skill development and lots of shooting in the woods.

It also represents a good set of skills for any hunter. Yet far too often talk of MOA at the range is confused by new hunters as adequate training. It is merely dialing in the equipment not the whole package if hunting is the end point. It is balanced by the old hands driving placement first in hunting like fit the bullet first in cast shooting.

[303Guy]

I'm happy with 1 MOA but reality dictates 1½ MOA is actually pretty good. My goal is MOA or better. I can actually hit something if my rifle shoots straight - my error added to rifle error don't do well in the field when my targets are small! Accurate rifles and loads do a lot for confidence.

I like the way Boomer Mikey puts it. Sewer pipe bores can shoot but I've only done it using paper patch boolits. Fire-lapping seems to work wonders.

What 45 2.1 has achieved is absolutely astounding and an inspiration! http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/webowdown2u.gif
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=1814)

[9.3X62AL]

Roger that, 303 Guy. His work is masterful.

Now that the doctors are about done having their way with me, I'm hoping to extend the capabilities of my castings in 9.3mm for a Canada hunt this Fall.

[243winxb]

The average factory rifle, out of the box, will average just under 2" for all shots fired when shooting 5 shot groups at 100 yds.

[HollowPoint]

"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

Townsend Whelen (March 6, 1877 - December 23, 1961)



Back when I was as "Poor As a Church Mouse" and I used to dream of being able to afford a decent rifle, I read this comment made by Townsend Whelen.

At the time I thought this was the absolute height of arrogance.

Now, having aged passed the half-century mark and earned enough here and there to be able to afford a "Decent Rifle," I've come to realize what Mr. Whelen was talking about.

Ironically, if I knew back then what I know now about accurizing my old rifles I wouldn't of had to wait till I reached my 50's to have an accurate rifle.

I shoot for 0ne inch or less; even with my old milsurp rifles shooting cast bullets. That doesn't mean I always attain that goal but why strive for less when more accuracy is alway possible given enough time and effort.

All my modern rifles (Tikka, Savage, Remington) are tack drivers but, I only shoot Jacketed through them.

Still working my K31 and my Enfield. The best I've done with them so far are tight clusters and a flyer or two to open them up to two inches or so.

HollowPoint

[white eagle]

for my 220 swift ai rite about a 1/2" at 100 yd.
280 ai look for bout an inch
cast rifle (358 win,35 Whelen) 1-1.5"
pistol at the moment I don't shoot that fer 50 yds is where I practice:lovebooli

[HangFireW8]

Still working my K31 and my Enfield. The best I've done with them so far are tight clusters and a flyer or two to open them up to two inches or so.

Do you have something like the RCBS Case Master to measure boolit runout? My unexplained flyers went away once I started using one. Now a gun either groups or it doesn't, if it doesn't it needs work (or really hates that load.)

-HF

[HollowPoint]

"Do you have something like the RCBS Case Master to measure boolit runout? My unexplained flyers went away once I started using one. Now a gun either groups or it doesn't, if it doesn't it needs work (or really hates that load.)

-HF"


The short answer to your question is No; I don't have one of those but, I do have a couple of gauges for checking the runout on my mill and lathe. I think I might be able to use them to check for any runout.

I never thought of doing that before. I'll have to give that a try.

Something else I've decided to do just to mitigate as much my own human error in my shooting and load work-up sessions is to use a mechanical rifle rest with a remote trigger.

I had the last three days off this week so I used that time to modify my old metal rifle rest. It's now ready to go as soon as I can get away to the shooting range.

With this mechanical rifle rest and remote trigger; along with checking the runout on my loaded bullets as you've mentioned should, at the very least, leave me with no excuses. They'll either shoot or they won't.

HollowPoint

[barrabruce]

For Plain cast light loads I aim for 1" or around that.
Just shot 3x into .3" at 100yrds!!!! Luck maybe!!!!
Whoopydoo.
Paper patching still working on it but 1 1/2 to 2" pretty easy to obtain.
Althou I can't do that great with flat out loads in my gun.
My best bet for hunting would be as far as I could "comfortably" shoot with the "First shot ...cleaned ..cold bore ..shot"
To me everything else seems academic if that's all I end up getting.
Haven't hunted for years but.
No use waiting for the 2 or 3rd shot to get the bore conditioned bag something.

I plan on doing a target over time with my first and second shots to see how they group. Fly!!!

Mechanical rifle rest Hmmmm
Just when I was getting my shaking and jerking the trigger co-ordinated.

Barra

[XWrench3]

to me, it does not matter if the projectile is cast, swaged, or jacketed. one inch ot better is always the goal. i have one load for my 300 win mag that is .628" group @ 199 yards, and i am trying to improve on that. i am also trying to get another boolit (heavier) to do the same in the same gun.

[williamwaco]

Do you have something like the RCBS Case Master to measure boolit runout? My unexplained flyers went away once I started using one.


YES! Me too. Cut my .38-55 groups from 2" max (1.5" average) to about 1.25 max, 1 1/16 average.

I find that 75% will runout .002 or less. 25% will runout .003 to .005. I use those normally for fouling but If I group with them they will uniformly group larger than 2 inches.


That said, I don't find nearly that much improvement with modern bottleneck cartridges like .223 or .243 with jacketed bullets.

[tuckerdog]

depends on gun load and use I cant give a pat answer

[mpmarty]

I don't have a 100 yard range to shoot on at home. That said, today my lawyer buddy and I were shooting our 45/70s at my 70 yard range and with my Marlin and RD 350gr cast without checks over 15gr of Unique and large pistol primers I was consistantly shooting clover leaf groups with all five rounds touching using a six power scope. That's good enough for me any day of the week.

[trk]

Standard?
That's easy. Right now I'm doing 3" at 100yds plain-based with iron sights, SO my standard is 1" with 5 shots of 400gr .458WM. It's how I got to 3" - by forcing me to do better in all the variables. WHen I can DO 1", I will revise the standard.

[HangFireW8]

williamwaco,


YES! Me too. Cut my .38-55 groups from 2" max (1.5" average) to about 1.25 max, 1 1/16 average.

I find that 75% will runout .002 or less. 25% will runout .003 to .005. I use those normally for fouling but If I group with them they will uniformly group larger than 2 inches.

Have you tried indexing the eccentric rounds, same side up, and shooting a group like that?

I've found group size improves, but not as good as concentric ammo, but POI shifts a bit.



That said, I don't find nearly that much improvement with modern bottleneck cartridges like .223 or .243 with jacketed bullets.

Hmm. I learned concentricity on my .222, where it helped me get down to 1/4 inch groups. I had to give up on that when the throat finally shot out, but it has helped pull my '06 groups down in size as well.

-HF

[Shiloh]

Me personally If my Milsurp rifles will shoot better than regular ball ammo that it was designed to shoot ,Im a happy camper .Basicly 3-4 moa with open sights works for me.

Works for me as well. On a good day it is closer to 3" Tis is the shooter and the shooters 55 year old eyes. Not necessarily the rifle.

Shiloh

[Char-Gar]

This thread deserves some type of honor for being the longest lived meaningless poll on this board!

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I got 11 of 12 rounds into a sheet of typing paper at 100 yds. with my GP-100 6 in. barrel. They were all over the place and four of them barely made a mark on the paper...... but it did. I was using my Ultra Red Dot scope. For me, that is really good. I was using a Lee 158 RNFP with mag primers and 16.3 of H-110. (this load is from memory so don't think it is accurate for sure).

[HollowPoint]

Regarding bullet run-out; here's a stupid question. (or rather; an ignorant question)

When you check for bullet run-out and find it, what do you do with it? In my own case, I picture it being analogous to a dog chasing a car. If that dog did manage to catch that car, then what would he do with it?

Do you dismantle the cartridge and start over or do you try to straighten it out somehow?

If it's the latter, what method do you use to bring your bullets into concentricity without doing more harm than good?

A little insight please; for the ignorant man doing the asking. Anybody.

HollowPoint

[HangFireW8]

HollowPoint,

The runout is measured around the middle of the ogive, further out is better than further in for positioning the gage. The case is supported near the base and near the shoulder, or case mouth if a straightwall.

I've tried straightening with mixed success. There are two causes of runout, crooked brass and crooked seating. With bottleneck brass it is easy to find just put the dial indicator on the neck instead of the boolit.

Runout is not something you eliminate it is something you manage. First I mark my sizing dies and put it in the press the same way each time. Then I mark the high side of my most eccentric brass and size it in four compass directions, seeing which way makes it come out most straight. Then do another one and find out more exactly to the degree which orientation to put the brass in. If it always comes out crooked, pull the expander ball, lube it and put it back in right in the middle of the die.

You won't get all your brass down to .000-.001" but you can get them sorted and close enough. Then do the same procedure with boolit seating. Measure and sort on boolit runout. Save the best ones for your record groups.

You'll learn some stuff. I got a great deal on Rem 30 blems. Couldn't get them to shoot well, measured and found .005-6" runout on the j-word alone!

HF

[pipehand]

Photo as profile shows a three round group @100 yards from a Win Model 70 Classic Stainless that I restocked and bedded. RCBS 30-165 SIL and 2400 powder. Have a Ruger 77 MKII in 7.62x39 that will shoot almost as good with the original C.E. Harris bullet from NEI.

[Love Life]

My accuracy standard is 4 or less inches at 100 yards with open sights. People tend to extrapolate that at what it will do at 400 yards, but you never know until you shoot that far. If I can hit in 4 or less inches I can usually keep it within 20 or less inches at 500 yards with irons.

With a scope I want to see 2 or less inches at 100 and 10 or less inches at 500 yards.

[Sonnypie]

The tinier the group, and in the bulls-eye, is what I strive for.
I prefer to shoot the longer range steel "gongs", myself.
If I can consistently hit those out there, I can certainly punch holes at 100 yards.

[popper]

Goal - 1 MOA bagged, 2-3 offhand. Mine are all scoped as I cant see the iron sights. Not quite there yet.

[303Guy]

This thread deserves some type of honor for being the longest lived meaningless poll on this board!Not really meaningless. It's an eye opener and a reality check. Many of us have unrealistic expectations, I think. Interesting stuff about runout has emerged from it.

I'm one of those lucky people with 20-20 vision (can't see squat at reading distance in poor light without reading glasses though). I gave up on open sights as soon as I could buy a scope. But now I have a rifle or two that will stay open sighted and I'd like to get into shooting with them. The right profile open sight is key.

I remember once putting nine shots from a 22 revelover with a five inch sight radius, from a rest, into a area the size of my palm at 100m and was dissappointed - I had unrealistic expectations back then! Well, with that kind of shooting I wasn't going to be any good at sillouette.

A buddy and I had identical 22 rifles, mine with a scope and he could shoot every bit as good as I could and I had incentive to out shoot him. I could shoot just as well with his rifle too.

So, with the right open sights, excellent accuray is possible even with less than perfect vision - his eyes were poor. And that was not the only open sighted rifle he excelled with. But using a scope has made me lazy for open sights.

[303Guy]

Spiral bullet path
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/SpiralBulletPath.jpg

Here we can see why our groups might look like they do.

[MT Chambers]

I just do what most on here do, measure my 100 yd. group centre to centre of the two furthest apart, then subtract 2", and that's your group size.

[1Shirt]

The quest for the 5 shot one hole that you can cover with a dime is but a dream for most of us who shoot cast. Nothing wrong with dreaming however.
1Shirt!

[cbrick]

I just do what most on here do, measure my 100 yd. group centre to centre of the two furthest apart, then subtract 2", and that's your group size.

Subtract 2 inches from the group size? :holysheep Geez, I been cheating my self measuring center to center of the two furthest holes. :groner:

Let's see, if I shoot a 1 inch group and subtract 2 inches have I fired a sub 1 inch group? :veryconfu Maybe if I fire a 2 inch group and subtract 2 inches I now have no group at all? :coffeecom

Rick

[HangFireW8]

I just do what most on here do, measure my 100 yd. group centre to centre of the two furthest apart, then subtract 2", and that's your group size.

Humor?

Or was that supposed to be 0.2 inches for 22 caliber rifles?

HF

[MT Chambers]

It's a joke already, you know, all the guys shootin' 1/4" groups!!!

[303Guy]

There must surely be an accuracy objective and an acceptable accuracy that we strive for an accept. When I achieved a consistent 1¼ inch group I made allowances for it on my targets (they were small target) by making sure I aimed and squeezed off the shot in the middle of the kill zone which included the rise and fall of the bullet since I didn't really know how far the critter was. If I had an idea I would allow for rise or fall. I usually got my quarry. So, acceptable accuracy tends to be less than desired or accuracy for me. But I take the view that practical accuracy limits the range one should be shooting at critters so a MOA rifle should only be used when it can reliably place it's boolit in the kill zone. My pig gun has a 25m range until I can get it reliable out to 50m (then on to 75m, hopefully).

[XTR]

I came here a little over a yr ago, I must say I was surprised by what was generally acceptable for accuracy. I'm a competitive shooter shooting F-TR, I'm accustomed to my match rifles holding better than .75MOA vertical at 1000 yards, and shooting in the .2s vertical at 200. Discovering that in general a 2" group at 100 yards was considered OK floored me.

In the interim I've gotten a little less shocked. My cast bullet shooting is with a 45-70, and I've learned what it's like to try to put consistent groups on paper with a heavy recoiling rifle. It's a lot different than with a 308, and in a rifle that I plan to never shoot past 200 yards, well 2MOA is still well with in the vitals of a white tail, and actually in the heart of a buffalo, but I still can't live with it. I'm getting better, though with my Win-Mir 45-70 with a 24" barrel I've given up on cast and gone to jacketed 405s and it's shooting 1" groups. Call me happy.

On the other hand, I've added a C Sharps 45-70 that is going to be used for BP and cast. I'm working up PP hunting loads with it, I'm looking for about 1.5" with irons with those. With my 1000 yard 535gr GG bullets, I'm going to be looking for 1 MOA at 100 because if I can't get it there then flinging them 1000 yards at a 2MOA 10-ring is just pissin' in the wind.

[Blammer]

My accuracy standards, no matter how far away. :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2010%20Deer/DSCN8333.jpg

[1Shirt]

As usual, I tend to agree with Larry Gibson, and this is no exception. With a p-dog rifle, I expect 1" or less at 100, with an open sighted 30-30, or most of my issue Milsurps, am satisfied with 3" or less.
1Shirt!

[ku4hx]

Talk about a day for old posts. Anyway ....

I wasn't paying too much attention to the title of this thread (in a bit of a hurry) and read a few of the posts and then a thought occurred to me as it does from time to time now days. Accuracy is sometimes a subjective term with many people having many varying definitions as to what is a standard of comparison and just how accurate is accurate. But that wasn't the thought.

My standard for accuracy: hitting the water. If you don't understand that, just give yourself a few years and you will.

[otter5555]

I am looking for one inch groups but I not got them yet?People have told me cast will shoot with a jacketed bullet but I have found they wont.Ive shot with a bunch of cast bullet shooters too.Yoe will hear big stories from them but when it comes down to it at the range the results are always the same.

My two and two and one half inch groups are ok for these free bullets but I was in hopes for more.

I will just keep blasting the cast out there until I get the results I am looking for.

Out of here Little Joe

i only shoot what i cast. i would not keep a rifle that wouldnt shoot 1 minute or less with a scope. every rifle and every boolit has a load that it likes. you just have to work your a@@ off and find it.

if it was easy liberals would be doin' it :)

otter

[Rattus58]

Please tell me your accuracy standard at 100If I can keep all of my bullets in a 4" bull at 100 yards I'm ecstatic. I shoot open sights and my bead covers the bull usually unless I raise the sight a bit and do a 6 hold. I can usually keep things at about an inch at 50 with several of my guns...

I'm a hunter and not a shooter, so accuracy is important to me... where precision might be more important to a shooter.. what is the difference... you might be asking... accuracy is hitting my target, precision is keeping it in the x ring.

Aloha.. :cool:

[Rattus58]

Talk about a day for old posts. Anyway ....

I wasn't paying too much attention to the title of this thread (in a bit of a hurry) and read a few of the posts and then a thought occurred to me as it does from time to time now days. Accuracy is sometimes a subjective term with many people having many varying definitions as to what is a standard of comparison and just how accurate is accurate. But that wasn't the thought.

My standard for accuracy: hitting the water. If you don't understand that, just give yourself a few years and you will. Yup... there is a huge difference between accuracy and precision. X-ring versus the meat locker.

[Rattus58]

this is what I'm looking for on the range at all possible...

70742

[Cap'n Morgan]

I would be very happy with a 100 yards group looking like this:

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7663/wagnerrecord03.jpg

Well, that tiny group is actually shot at 600 yards! Unbelievable...

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/05/amazing-wagner-shoots-0-349-50-2x-group-at-600-yards/comment-page-1/#comment-42222

[9.3X62AL]

If that group size at 600 yards is verified, it's entirely OFF THE HOOK. Those are small-caliber bullets, and wind makes such projectiles get just poetic as can be. Hell of a fine job of shooting, in any event. And YES, a group that size with my sporters at 100 yards would prompt a smile here as well.

[303Guy]

I'd buy that shooter a beer! I'll buy him a whole darn barrel of beer!

[Driver man]

I'd buy that shooter a beer! I'll buy him a whole darn barrel of beer!
Well, I'd help him drink it.

[dondiego]

After you drink the beer, be sure you hit the water!!

[Wolfer]

I rarely shoot from a bench anymore. Being primarily a hunter my only concern is how far the boolit landed from my crosshairs. On a deer rifle at 100 if it lands within 2" of POA from a field position I'm good to go. In theory that could be a 4" group but I believe all my rifles will do better than that.

[waksupi]

If a rifle won't shoot into 1.5", it doesn't live here long.

[robg]

A lot depends on type of rifle and calibre .223/308 inch or less ,357/44 mag 2-3 inches is OK by me.

[redhawk0]

I know my limits and set goals accordingly.

Bolt action deer hunting rifles 2"
Bolt action varmint rifle 1"
Lever, pump, semi-auto 4" or less

redhawk

[Texas by God]

With a scope, 1.5" at 100yds. With irons double that. Of course I'm happy when I shoot better than that. I'm the weak link of the deal.

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[unique]

Question seems to similar to when I walk into the car dealer and he/she asks what do I want to pay per month. Well the answer is...it depends.

But since it seems proper to respond with something more meaningful...In general, my accuracy standard is whatever I think the the rifle is capable of at 100yds for a given load. That might vary from 1/2"MOA to 4" MOA.

[Greg S]

Pistol or Rifle?

Rifle, I tend to lean towards as good as I can get it to shoot. Now adays, it's not uncommon to here of subminute 3-5 round groups. I'm pretty happy with older rifles in the 3.5-4.0 and modern in the 1.25 or less for 10. At 4 and above I feel there is a major $$$ problem (barrel) that no matter how hard you try, your not gonna fix and it's down the road.

[TNsailorman]

As others have said, it depends. Military rifle I want 1 /12 to 1 inches. Civilian Factory made rifles had better be able to print 1 inch in a 3 shot group or its going down the road. I will give either a good effort to find a shootable load and if necessary tinker a little if it shows promise. I have had few military rifles (so far) that I have had to move but I have had several civilian rifles that would not or I could not find a good load that agreed with them. I am a little picky but that just me, james

[Texas by God]

I fired a 6 in three-shot group Saturday with my 44-40 carbine. I'm quite happy with that because I was shooting off hand as fast as I could shoot and load. 100 yards.

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[TNsailorman]

Hey Texas, I have never fired a pistol at 100 yards that I can remember. Except a Colt .22lr that Dad had. A 4" barrel Woodsman. We were taking turns rainbowing shots at coots at least 600 to 700 yards up a lake in TN. We each took turns with the other acting as a spotter. 5 shots and switch. We got close several times and the shot got there before the sound. Coots would look around and duck there heads, dive and cut all kinds of dido's. The spotter had binoculars and we had a blast until a boat came around the neck of the lake and it was too dangerous to shoot anymore because of the possibility of ricochets. We really had to elevate to get the .22 there, it was more like mortar fire that pistol shooting. Had good time for a few minutes though. Best I remember, neither of us hit a coot but we came within a foot or so several times. That was in the early 50's and you sure couldn't do that now. There are house all around that lake almost to the edge of the water. Times have changed. james

[EDG]

Groups size acceptable?
Depends a lot on the rifle condition and the sights.