US Model 1917 musings

[Char-Gar]

When I was a kid my Grandfather (who raised me) was the Commander of the local American Legion post. They had a rack of 1917s that the Color Guard carried for parades and also used for firing salutes at funerals. They has six or eight of them.

They had a big parade down here each year and the American Legion Drum and Bugle Corp always marched with the Color Guard carrying the flags. Four of the Color guard carried the rifles and two carried the flags (Texas and US).

The parade ended down town which still a good mile and a half from the American Legion post on the backside of Ft. Brown. The Color Guard always left the rifles at my Grandfather law office and he would take them back to the post when he had time. One day, he slung two over each of my shoulders and told me to carry them down to the Post and place them in the racks. I was ten years old and carrying four of those rifles that mile and a half was a hell of a struggle for me.

It was because of this, I developed a dislike for the US Model 1917 rifle.

As I got older and took to centerfire rifle shooting I started with the 03, as that was the rifle of choice of the time. 1917s were abundant on the market and only sold for $25.00. I bought a couple, but quickly got rid of them after one range session, remembering the long slog with those damn things cutting into my shoulders.

Fast forward 40 some odd years and I walked into a pawn shop in Deming New Mexico. I could see on the rack, the unmistakable possum belly trigger guard and floor plate of a 1917. I had not seen one in several years. It turned out to be a good unrebuilt Winchester and the price was $125.00, so I bought it "just to have". I cleaned it up and put in in my gun safe where it sits to this day unfired. The five groove left hand twist Winchester barrel is bright and shiney.

A couple of weeks ago, I bought a good Remington 1917 mixmaster WWII rebuild from a member of this board. It sprouts a cherry JA barrel. Somebody gave the stock a coat of heavy varnish, but that will come off and I will take it back to a military oil finish. I will do this as soon as the Beloved Redhead leaves town in a couple of weeks. She raises hell with me about the smell of the stripper. It will all be over when she comes back and will be none the wiser.

I have been hefting and holding this new 1917 and sure like the solid feel of it, plus the extra length of the butt stock compared to the 03. It is a heavy beast to be certain, but today I like that feel.

I will excavate the Winchester 1917 from the back of the safe and when the stock is done on the Remington will take both of them to the range for a through work out with cast bullets. I am looking forward to this very much. But even today, I will not sling both of them over the same shoulder and try and walk too far. The memory of that still smarts.

[Dutchman]

From the catalog of Martin B. Retting, Culver City, Calif. This was the last catalog prior to January 1, 1969 implementation of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

http://images17.fotki.com/v274/photos/2/28344/157842/r001-vi.jpg

I was in a small gunshop in North Hollywood, Calif. They had a rack of rifles with 6 new-in-grease M1917 rifles priced at $35. This was in 1969. M1917 weren't really popular or desireable. The hot setup for a sporter was the 1903 Springfield. I bought two like-new 03A3 at Western Surplus in North Hollywood circa 1971-72 for $59 each. They were also not desirable due to the amount of work needed to "finish" the metal work, being rough machined and all.

http://images53.fotki.com/v665/photos/4/28344/9895637/Model1917Rifle-vi.jpg

My current Remington M1917 was made in March, 1918 and is ONE digit off from a rifle known to have been in France via Springfield Research Service. I'd bet the odds are very good my rifle also went as new rifles were packed in crates in very close serial number ranges. But.. no exact proof.

My 1917 came from Southern Ohio Guns in 1995 as a "collectors grade". They were Danish Lend-Lease rifles that had s/n stamped on the bolts. No other markings or indication of foreign service. Canadian and English Lend-Lease rifles often had a red band painted around the forearm to distinguish the .30-06 caliber from .303 Brit Pattern 1914 rifles.

When I took my M1917 and M1903 out the first time with cast bullet loads I irked the **** outta me that the M1917 outshot the M1903. Both have primo bores. I guess it's the peep on the M1917 that allowed a wee bit better grouping overall. I prefer the M1903:).

But I think the M1917 is the stronger rifle overall in every way.

Dutch

[Shooter6br]

Have a sported with a20 in barrel. I use. 314 accumold cast. (32-L) It has 5. Grove barrel original. Not 2 groove replacement

[bydand]

Six P14's and one M1917(with RCAF property stamp)

[smkummer]

From what I have seen the preference for a 03 or 03A3 over a 1917 is about over at the gun shows I have attended, meaning the price is about the same for a compairable condition example. No one looks at these for sporterizing anymore, now its what it will take to make it right. I am glad I have all three of these classic US bolt action rifles. Its been a long time since I have fired a full powered 30-06 load in any of these rifles (28 grains of 2400 behind Lyman's 311291-170 grain is such a sweet load) but if memory serves, the 1917 took some bite out of the recoil more so than the 03 or 03A3.

[Multigunner]

From the catalog of Martin B. Retting, Culver City, Calif. This was the last catalog prior to January 1, 1969 implementation of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

http://images61.fotki.com/v390/photos/4/28344/9895637/Martin_Retting_1968b-vi.jpg

I was in a small gunshop in North Hollywood, Calif. They had a rack of rifles with 6 new-in-grease M1917 rifles priced at $35. This was in 1969. M1917 weren't really popular or desireable. The hot setup for a sporter was the 1903 Springfield. I bought two like-new 03A3 at Western Surplus in North Hollywood circa 1971-72 for $59 each. They were also not desirable due to the amount of work needed to "finish" the metal work, being rough machined and all.

http://images53.fotki.com/v665/photos/4/28344/9895637/Model1917Rifle-vi.jpg

My current Remington M1917 was made in March, 1918 and is ONE digit off from a rifle known to have been in France via Springfield Research Service. I'd bet the odds are very good my rifle also went as new rifles were packed in crates in very close serial number ranges. But.. no exact proof.

My 1917 came from Southern Ohio Guns in 1995 as a "collectors grade". They were Danish Lend-Lease rifles that had s/n stamped on the bolts. No other markings or indication of foreign service. Canadian and English Lend-Lease rifles often had a red band painted around the forearm to distinguish the .30-06 caliber from .303 Brit Pattern 1914 rifles.

When I took my M1917 and M1903 out the first time with cast bullet loads I irked the **** outta me that the M1917 outshot the M1903. Both have primo bores. I guess it's the peep on the M1917 that allowed a wee bit better grouping overall. I prefer the M1903:).

But I think the M1917 is the stronger rifle overall in every way.

Dutch

On another board images of a Scandinavian issued M1917 were posted that had Canadian markings, apparently sent there by Canada.
This particular rifle had the same scallop cut in the receiver ring found on some 98 Mausers in .30-06. Though no logical reason could be found for that modification others were also modified in this manner.

According to an article on use of the M1917 in Canada many if not all arrived without bolts, the bolts delivered separately. A elderly former armorer stated he spent quite some time fitting bolts and checking headspace, and I believe he mentioned numbering the bolts to the receivers as well.

Near as I can remember the M1917 was the first centerfire rifle I ever fired. One never forgets that first whack on the trigger finger knuckle.

[Four Fingers of Death]

They are big ol gals, that's for sure. I have had a few over the years and only really ever wanted a nice Winchester M17, but the Winchesters are thin on the ground in Australia and have always eluded me.

I have an Eddystone P14, complete with both volley sights and a fat boy stock, a stock Remington M17 and one with a Parker rear peep sight and absolutely mint barrel, as well as a few target rifles in 308Win, in various states of repair.

Being an Enfield with the cock on closing feature ( it is percieved as a feature to those that know how to use it effectively and percieved as a fault to those that don't) which makes it a quick to cycle bolt rifle, allowing quick follow up shots or a high rate of fire.

The only thing I can fault them on is the fact that the peep sight aperature is too big, but, then again, it was designed for 19 year olds and not an old fart like me.

They are like Chinese food, no sooner do you get one, do you feel like another shortly afterwards!

[Multigunner]

The M1917 reminds me of a remark a British officer made about the Garand, something about it being "Robust" and having the look of a locomotive.

[Grapeshot]

The first M1917 I ever fired was an Eddystone that I signed out from the Outdoor Rec at Speravon AS, Alaska. Anytime we left the site we had to have a rifle or shotgun and I drew the M1917. That was back in 1973.

Fast forward to 1993 and I picked up my own from a gunshow in Maryland. The action was very smooth but the headspace was off to the point that when I fired it the bolt needed to be coaxed open when using milsup ammo. Not having the funds to get it repaired I sold it off for a loss.

Two years ago I found another Eddystone and bought it from a friend at a SASS match. This time I checked the headspace and it was within tolerances and I did not have to coax the bolt open with a wooden mallet. Fairly accurate after a half hour of scrubbing the bore with J&B bore scrubber. The bore shows nice sharp rifling but it is dark. My next move, when I get back from the sandbox is to plug the bore and pour Hoppe's #9 in the bore and let it sit for a few days and then drain. I'll run a few wet patches through the barrel and see what happens then. I prefer the M1917 to the M1903 because of the weight helps tame the recoil of the .30-06 cartridge. That '03 kicks like a mule. The only other gun that tames the '06 round is the M1 Garand. If I have to chose, it's going to be the M1917.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have a P14 and a P17. All original except for the firing pin springs. Changed them for a faster lock time. With the old springs you had time to refine your aim AFTER pulling the trigger.

[Multigunner]

If you ever run across an M1917 with shortened barrel but with the original military sight in place don't assume that it has been bubba'ed till you check into it further.
During WW2 many thousands of M1917 rifles were given to Chinese Nationalist troops serving under "Jolting Joe" Stillwell. Some of the Chinese troops were found to be far too short in stature to handle the big M1917, so about two thousand were modified by cutting down the barrel and setting the sight and bayonet lug with bands back on the shortened stock.
A very similar shortened version of the P-14 had been tested by the British.
Barrel length was in the neigborhood of 22 inches.
I've seen a photo of a much shorter M1917 carbine thats in the Springfield Museum. the museum also had a number of M1917 rifles with shortened fore ends similar to the sporterized rifles sold by mail order in the 60's. These were apparently experiments in producing a range rifle or sniper rifle. A line drawing of a proposed sniper rifle built from the M1917 survives, the fore end of that scoped rifle was also cut down like a sporter. I forget whether or not the rear sight ears had been ground off in order to mount the scope.
So far as I know none of the radically modified M1917 rifles have been identified in private collections.

[catmandu]

Great Post Guys!
Well this weekend I finally came into possesion of my first M1917.
Its a Eddystone with a JA 2 groove barrel. It was the dirtyest gun I ever bought.
A friend's father had it in a closet for at least 30 years. It was made in Mar of 1918 After soaking the bolt and scrubbing the bore I took it out with some lite target loads this weekend. It shot real well and its a keeper.
Came with a Winchester polyurathane stock that I will redo.

Overalll I had fun and plan to shoot it alot more.
I loaded up some RCBS 165-SIL GC 's with 15 & 18.5 gr 2400 to test it out.
What loads are you using?

I found a post that detailed how Marines in the trenches use a nickel to take the bolt apart for cleaning. I tried it last night and it works fine.

Paul in WNY:-)

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you ever run across an M1917 with shortened barrel but with the original military sight in place don't assume that it has been bubba'ed till you check into it further.
During WW2 many thousands of M1917 rifles were given to Chinese Nationalist troops serving under "Jolting Joe" Stillwell. Some of the Chinese troops were found to be far too short in stature to handle the big M1917, so about two thousand were modified by cutting down the barrel and setting the sight and bayonet lug with bands back on the shortened stock.

Thats interesting, when I opened my gun safe in front of my Chinese sister in law, she immediately pounced on an 8mm Turkish 98, scooped it up, cranked the bolt and did some drill with it. Then she smiled proudly and said 'In Army this my gun!" She was a Doctor in the red army and apparently was issued one of the Chinese made 98s which she carried through her career.

I pulled a shotgun out to show her son and revealed a Remington M17 which was behind it. She pointed to the M17 and said, 'this one Chinese gun, special!' I didn't take a lot of notice at the time, thinking she had made a mistake. Maybe one of her peers or staff carried an old M17, maybe it was just special because it used different ammo. I must take an M17 with me when I visit her one day and see if she can tell me anything about them.

An interesting lady, apparently the eldest son for as many generations as could be remembered had served in the Chinese Army or Emporer's Army prior to that. She only had one younger sister, so she marched off as a nurse in the Army, eventually becoming an Army doctor. She is pretty 'special' as well.

[bob208]

my first 17 is a lend-lease rifle. it has 3 places that were cut out of the stock and filled in with plugs of wood. i think it is battle damage repair also it is parkerized.

i saved it from the hacksaw. the guy brought it into the shop and wanted to cut it down because it was too heavy for hunting. i got him to wait one day till i brought in a rifle to trade. that was a cut down no.4 enfield. it cost me that enfield and 2 boxes of .303. in those days i always kept a bubbaed rifle around for traiding.

[Four Fingers of Death]

in those days i always kept a bubbaed rifle around for traiding.

Thats a neat idea!

[-06]

Stumbled onto a 17 Winchester a few yrs back. Shoots great. Rumor has it that Sgt. York used a 17 in his Medal of Honor exploits. They said he grumbled because he wanted an '03.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Stumbled onto a 17 Winchester a few yrs back. Shoots great. Rumor has it that Sgt. York used a 17 in his Medal of Honor exploits. They said he grumbled because he wanted an '03.

The way I heard it, his regiment were carrying M17s, but he was allowed to carry a springer as he preferred the open sights for shooting running Germans. As he was shooting a lot of them, they issued him with an 03.

[Char-Gar]

The ODCM has a nice page on the 1917 and it dealt with Alvin York. Yorks letters home state he was issued and used a 1917. They story he was issued an 03 has been around a long time, probably based on he movie of his life. He is played by Gary Cooper and Cooper has an 03 in the film. Just another example of films not doing their firearms research. There is no evidence or record that York used anything but a 1917

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I got my first 1917 out of an ad in Field & Stream for $27.95. It was a Winchester and in good shape. Then I picked up a Remington and an Eddystone for $34.95 & $39.95 respectively. They all shot well for me with cast. I never understood why the rear sight had no provision for wind adjustment especially since it did not seem to be a big deal to have made a rack and pinion arrangement to do that. Eventually I got ahold of a sight adjustment tool for an SKS and with a little filing, made it fit so that it would move the front sight if I needed to adjust for wind. Because the lands took up more than half the bore I found that bullets with short bodies and long noses like the old Lyman 311334 seemed to shoot more accurately. 311284 and 311291 also did well. The 17's were/are strong, reliable and well made rifles and have been with me for a very long time. Glad that I got them ( a long time ago) when I did. LLS

[badbob454]

glad you are enjoying it Char-Gar i went for a lighter 06 for hunting purposes , it was indeed a robust great shooter, what little i did shoot it ...badbob

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The the Enfields suit my left hand shooting by placing the bolt handle where I can reach across. Picked up this nice P14 303 Remington to compliment the collection of original Winchesters. I want to replace the rear sight with a spare AJParker range sight and shoot it with cast boolits!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/P14Sporter_C.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/P14Sporter_D.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture001-1.jpg

[Me not you]

The size and weight of the M1917 really tames the recoil of the 30-06 cartridge. I've always found the rifles to be good shooters and good to shoot with. My first "high powered" rifle was an as-issued M1817. It got years of use in the woods and rough country where I grew up. I still have it, but the original barrel has now been replaced with a JA 2-groove. It shoots well with any safe load I put through it, and still gets used as a "utility rifle" when I check on my property.

[Adk Mike]

I shot my Remington NZ lend Lease today. I shoot only cast and unique powder. It's my most shot rifle. I've had it a couple years and really enjoy it.

[sisterjim]

I have a 1961 Marlin 336 that has been rebarelled with an M1917 Eddystone barrel. It has been lopped and bored for the 30-30. The overall barrel length is now 24". I appreciate your reluctance to shorten these barrels on the original rifle. The decision is out of my hands as it has begun from the breech. I am inclined to lop some off the muzzle end, perhaps down to 20". It is a 5 groover and measured with a shim round the slug at .312. I wonder if anybody has any comments on accuracy with a shorter barrel before I cut. You have a similar barrel Shooter6br. Regards JIM

[Char-Gar]

Accuracy won't suffer if you shorten the barrel. However the quality of the muzzle crown will have an effect if not done right.

[sisterjim]

I am new to this website. Man Alive this is an amazing source of information. Thank you for your opinion. JIM

[flounderman]

I think a shorter barrel has less vibration and should be more accurate, all else being even. if there is wear or damage to the crown or it wasn't right to begin with, a correct crown will improve accuracy. this would be more likely to show up in a bench rest rifle than in a lever action, but you won't lose anything but maybe 40 feet per second for each inch you cut off.