Bullet design for 38 and 357

[gefiltephish]

I'm interested in a hopefully not too distant future purchase of a mold for 38/357. I have a S&W 64 and 686, both 4". The only mold I have currently for these two guns is a 5 cav NOE 360160 SWC. Double crimp groove, 3 cav's PB and 2 cav's GC. I'm finding that I don't really need that many GC'd so I'm looking for a 5 cav PB, in a slightly different bullet design. My primary goal is to increase production of PB bullets for any given amount of time casting.

What I have in mind is something like Accurate Molds 36-160G (http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-160G-D.png) but with double crimp grooves and PB. I'm thinking that, in theory, the round nose will fill the throat and center better and potentially tend to be a smidgen more accurate with less likely-hood of leading. Not that I'm having those issues with the NOE. One thing that I've noticed is that the NOE bullet does not drop from the mold easily, which has me wondering if the double crimp groove is a good idea or not. Fewer grooves = easier drop? Maybe it would be better to have one mold each for 38 and 357, each with a single crimp groove in the appropriate location?

I'm open to suggestions.

[TomAM]

For the crimp grooves, “appropriate location” carries several issues. SAAMI maximum OAL for the 38 special allows .395” from crimp to meplat, and only .300” for 357 mag. If loading 38 special cases for use in 357 chambers, intending the same cartridge OAL for both, the 38 crimp groove then becomes .435” from the tip.

For 38 special loads used in 38 special chambers, there is no advantage to using the full .395” nose length allowed. Modern powders don’t need anywhere near the case capacity of the 38 special even for +P+ loads, and better results are achieved with the crimp at the .300” intended for the 357 mag. The resultant reduced case capacity produces more consistent pressures, and a long wobbly unsupported nose does nothing to help accuracy.

The double crimp groove technique has problems which must be dealt with in the design. Most revolver chambers have about .100” of tapered throat which transitions from the .38” diameter of the loaded case, to the .358” diameter of the chamber mouth. Boolits are almost always sized a bit larger than the chamber mouth for best accuracy and gas seal. This means that boolit diameter further north than about .100” from the crimp groove must be smaller than the chamber mouth, or about .357” at most. As a result, the first driving band, above the top crimp groove, must be undersized. This results in compromised accuracy whenever the top crimp is used. The alternative is a full diameter top band, which prevents chambering whenever the lower crimp is used on a cartridge for which the chamber is designed.

Unless it’s desired to use mixed 38 spl and 357 mag cases for the same load in the 357 mag, I recommend using a plain based #36-160G for both cartridges. A plain based version is now in my catalog; #36-160H.

[EDK]

You've discovered why I order 4 plain base and 1 gas check in the NOE five cavity moulds that have options on the base configuration. "Don't need no steenkin' gas checks"...and they ain't giving them away either.

EVERY sharp edge on a mould...like the double crimp grooves!...make it a bit harder to shake the boolits out. Lapping can help, but won't completely solve the problem.

IIRC NOE has some 360 160 WFN....shorter version of 360 180 WFN...moulds for sale in VENDOR SPONSOR SALES. I really like the 180, but the 160 would save some lead. I also have LYMAN 358665...and a bunch of others in that weight range.

Tom at ACCURATE MOLDS makes some d*** nice moulds...from the reports and pictures I've seen....and I have a couple projects to discuss with him AFTER I finish my "pre-election stock piling" of powder and primers.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[gefiltephish]

...
Unless it’s desired to use mixed 38 spl and 357 mag cases for the same load in the 357 mag, I recommend using a plain based #36-160G for both cartridges. A plain based version is now in my catalog; #36-160H.

Thanks for the quick reply Tom. I checked out the 36-160H and that's probably what I'll get. Not sure exactly when, just depends on how the cash flows.

[gefiltephish]

...Tom at ACCURATE MOLDS makes some d*** nice moulds...from the reports and pictures I've seen....and I have a couple projects to discuss with him AFTER I finish my "pre-election stock piling" of powder and primers.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

I already have 3 of Tom's molds, and yes he does produce a high quality product.

Shake the bullets out?! Sometimes I'm lucky to get 'em out by beating on the handles pivot bolt with a plastic mallet!

We got the 686 for my wife because she can't pull the slide on the semi's. My 82 year old mother (who lives in another state) also got one shortly after. I got the mold configured the way I did thinking that my wife would go to the range once in a while and shoot 38's and I would pop off a few 357's. Never expected to also be reloading for my mother, thus my desire/need for higher production. I'm glad I also have a star!

Not only are gc's pricey, but they're a PIA to put on. Just got done doing about a thousand of them and I'm not planning on doing more any time soon. Maybe there is a better way, these are a bit of a tight fit. Perhaps a tool to size the base just right? As I recall, my 30-30's pop right on, no muss no fuss.

[GP100man]

358156 deshanked & HP by Buckshot .

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0012.jpg

I have the 358446 in solid & HP.
http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0489.jpg

[Little Big Oz]

Gefiltephish,

If you're not dead set on the 160 grain boolit, take a look at Accurate's 36-125C. Just got that a few weeks ago in a 4 cavity aluminum block. It's been easy to cast with, and saves lead at around 130 grains from wheel weight alloy. Makes a nice midrange 357 mag load over 7.5 gr Unique. I'm using them unsized and tumble lubed with LLA. Very little leading and pretty accurate in a 6" 686.

[gefiltephish]

@GP100man
A believe-it-or-not FYI: Here in the police state, while it is legal to possess and shoot hp's at the range, if you actually defend yourself with them against an attacker, *even inside your own home*, guess who the criminal is? Yer goin' away for a long time. Simple *logic* that only bureaucrats can dream up.

Maybe I'm an idiot but here's my version of logic. A gun is a deadly weapon. We don't point deadly weapons at anything we don't intend to kill. If used on an animate object, the only reasonable expectation is that the target is going to die. If an attacker is killed with an hp vs an fmj, is he somehow *more* dead? If he's killed with a 22 vs a 45 is he also *more* dead? I'd like to see a prosecutor try making the *more* dead argument sometime. That oughta be a hoot.

[Lefty SRH]

I really like and enjoy my Lyman 358311. The accuracy has been impressive here lately due to finding the majic load combo.

[GP100man]

@GP100man
A believe-it-or-not FYI: Here in the police state, while it is legal to possess and shoot hp's at the range, if you actually defend yourself with them against an attacker, *even inside your own home*, guess who the criminal is? Yer goin' away for a long time. Simple *logic* that only bureaucrats can dream up.

Maybe I'm an idiot but here's my version of logic. A gun is a deadly weapon. We don't point deadly weapons at anything we don't intend to kill. If used on an animate object, the only reasonable expectation is that the target is going to die. If an attacker is killed with an hp vs an fmj, is he somehow *more* dead? If he's killed with a 22 vs a 45 is he also *more* dead? I'd like to see a prosecutor try making the *more* dead argument sometime. That oughta be a hoot.

@gefiltephish

My next next choice is a good SWC or a full wadcutter !

When we shoot at the swamp (mudbank) full wadcutters is what blows the biggest holes !!!

As long as there`s not a law limiting the NUMBER of nonexpanding projectiles:bigsmyl2:

[Good Cheer]

Maybe somebody oughta do a wadcutter group buy with a length adjustable set of interchangeable pins for hollow base, gas check and plain base. Reckon a pin for a round nose would work too?