We Have Better Equipment than Elmer Keith Did

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just spent two days casting with my 4 cavity 454190 and my 3 cavity LRN 150 gr .38 for my son’s brace of Ruger 3 screws. I was using my deep iron skillet on a propane heater for a turkey deep roaster. With Spring break coming up I had to take advantage of having the house alone for the last time in a week. Then at the local gun show I picked up a Lyman 4500 and bolted it on my gun bench next to my Lyman 450. Life is good. I’ve got a bunch of H&I dies, top punches and molds, guns and dies.

Then I was looking at SIXGUNS by Elmer Keith, it shows pictures of his casting equipment. I realized we have better equipment than he did. Mr. Keith had a nice looking Saeco electric furnace, but his Saeco sizer lubricator and the Pacific reloading press didn’t look as nice as my equipment. I’ve got a Dillon 550 and a RCBS Rockchucker. I’ve got a Lyman Mag 20, a Big Dipper and this deep iron skillet with a propane heater contraption. Now if I could only live on a farm where I can fire my Sharps at coyotes from the kitchen table…

[Char-Gar]

Balderdash! Keith could produce as fine and accurate ammo on his equipment as you can on yours. Newer does not mean better!

[btroj]

Char-far is dead on. Newer isn't better. Keith also knew how to use his equipment to get the most out of it. So he used a more "primitive" single stage press for handgun ammo instead of a Dillon.

It isn't about the equipment, it is about the skill of the user. I doubt many of us will ever cast as many bullets, load as many rounds, or shoot as many rounds as Keith did. He certainly knew what he was doing.

[1bluehorse]

I don't think the OP was saying Elmer (et al) didn't know his/their stuff...only that we have better equipment today than the boys did back then. We also have better molds, and we get to do all this using their experience making the bullets THEY designed..how lucky we are [smilie=w:

[Montana Ron]

Dillon MACHINES have been a factor in blowing up some irreplaceable antique rifles over the last few years............Mike venturino's friend SHRAPNEL blew up a 1 st gen Colt and a 1876 using a high volume machine...........The human factor is responsible as one distraction of a call mid stroke or short stroking a 550 can be a major BO-BO...........I sold my Dillon as the bigger ,faster
craze almost got me in trouble..........I'll make as good a bullet one at a time then risking quanity for quality..............

[btroj]

I would question whether or not we have better moulds. Elmer managed to get moulds made to his specifications. The bullets certainly worked well for him. The other equipment may be redesigned, but is it better? Bet most of those changes were made to reduce production cost, not to "improve" the design. The basic Lyman sized isn't much changed in operation since the 20s.

I ask, in what way is our equipment better? As in more capable of producing a good bullet or more accurate ammo.

[1bluehorse]

I would question whether or not we have better moulds. Elmer managed to get moulds made to his specifications. The bullets certainly worked well for him. The other equipment may be redesigned, but is it better? Bet most of those changes were made to reduce production cost, not to "improve" the design. The basic Lyman sized isn't much changed in operation since the 20s.

I ask, in what way is our equipment better? As in more capable of producing a good bullet or more accurate ammo.

Have you seen a Mihec brass mold??? Elmer would of killed for one of those..or a Star or Ballisti-cast sizer...yeah, we got better...

[Love Life]

Dillon MACHINES have been a factor in blowing up some irreplaceable antique rifles over the last few years............Mike venturino's friend SHRAPNEL blew up a 1 st gen Colt and a 1876 using a high volume machine...........The human factor is responsible as one distraction of a call mid stroke or short stroking a 550 can be a major BO-BO...........I sold my Dillon as the bigger ,faster
craze almost got me in trouble..........I'll make as good a bullet one at a time then risking quanity for quality..............

Hmmm.

I think IDIOTS using Dillon Machines have been a factor in blowing up blah, blah, blah etc.

Please do not blame a Machine for the failures of the guy pulling the handle.

[1bluehorse]

I would question whether or not we have better moulds. Elmer managed to get moulds made to his specifications. The bullets certainly worked well for him. The other equipment may be redesigned, but is it better? Bet most of those changes were made to reduce production cost, not to "improve" the design. The basic Lyman sized isn't much changed in operation since the 20s.

I ask, in what way is our equipment better? As in more capable of producing a good bullet or more accurate ammo.

Have you seen a Mihec brass mold??? Elmer would of killed for one of those..or a Star or Ballisticast sizer, as far as a better bullet or more accurate ammo, maybe not, but better equipment...you bet..

[btroj]

I own a Star sizer and 2 Mihec brass moulds. Wonderful pieces of equipment.

Good as they are neither one is "better" than a good old fashioned Lyman mould or sizer. Very well made, yes. That does not make them better. Neither one inherently makes a better bullet than the equipment Elmer used.

Th very word better means it is capable of producing a better end product. I don't see that as the case at all. Makes me wonder how Elmer managed some of the shots he made when he had such inferior equipment.........

[geargnasher]

Have you seen a Mihec brass mold??? Elmer would of killed for one of those..or a Star or Ballisti-cast sizer...yeah, we got better...

Brad is right too, in a way, it's up to the operator. Our fancy new equipment doesn't always make better boolits in the hands of a given user, but it makes things easier, and faster. I'll put a brass Accurate or Mihec mould up aganst any Lyman/Ideal, any day simply because they are brass which maintains an even heat throughout the blocks compared to steel, mehanite, or iron. The Magma Star sizer IS superior in every way, especially since it's a NOSE FIRST sizer and makes inherently straight boolits with square bases.


Hmmm.

I think IDIOTS using Dillon Machines have been a factor in blowing up blah, blah, blah etc.

Please do not blame a Machine for the failures of the guy pulling the handle.

Thank you. Same concept as matches being blamed for arson or a fork for making Rosie a fat, obnoxious be-aatch.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

We have some fine molds and mold makers these day for certain. As good as has been made in the past, but "better", not hardly. A good old Lyman/Ideal, Hensley and Gibbs, Cramer, Modern Bond and Belding and Mull mold will cast bullets as good as any we have today.

I have well over a hundred and fifty molds made over the past 100 years from all of the above makers and those who are making them today. I certainly am not going to seperate them into piles labled "Ok,but old" and "new, and better". A good mold is a good mold and a bad mold is a bad mold no matter when it was made and who made it.

I have been reloading for the past 53 years and that time spanned the equipment that Elmer used and what we have today. I still have a late 40's Pacific C press bolted to my bench (along with others), and use it from time to time. It is all about the man and not the tools. You short horns that have only experience "now" and not "then" really are full of it. Some of us have experienced both "now" and "then" and know truth from horse hocky about loading tools.

All the newer stuff does, is make good ammo/bullets faster or bad ammo/bullets faster. Again, it is all about the man.

Star sizers have been made as long as I have been reloading and for years before. They are not new.

[kmag]

I have a Dillon 650 and a SDB. Have owned them for years. I guess I wore out the first SDB because when I sent it to Dillon for a rebuild this year, they sent me a new one. Also on my bench is my old RCBS Rock Chucker press. When I made ammo for defense or matches it is done on the RCBS single station and primed with a Lee hand primer.
I own Mihec molds and they are great, but my H&G molds are also great. The H&G molds will resale for more than the Mihec for some reason. So which is better, think about it.

[Don Purcell]

Remember, Elmer mentioned shooting the first 44 mag. only 600 rounds the first year he had it. He didn't just blast ammo away to make noise. He had no need for high volume equipment like some of us do for competition shooting. As long as you don't get into bad shooting habits and watch the basics there is nothing wrong with high volume shooting. Elmer also wasn't flush with money either as he mentions at different times. Personally I think Elmer got rooked by the gun companies. When you think of all the money Smith and Wesson and Ruger made off his ideas and suggestions, they would send him a gun now and then as "appreciation". In any other business Elmer and anyone else would have recieved royalties as compensation for they're work and years of experiments. Perhaps I'm wrong.

[Char-Gar]

In Elmer's day, the whole field of "Intellectual Property" law didn't even exist. Most of the stuff he did was not unique enough to patent, so all he got was the satisfaction.

[ammohead]

This thread is like saying they don't make cars like they used to. Of course they don't. Today cars get up to 50+ miles per gallon and go 100,000 miles without a tune up, corner and ride like a dream. And pickup trucks ride like Caddys!

Elmer didn't have the advantage of an LBT hardness tester, or an electronic scale, digital calipers, or the plethora of cottage industrials like Swede Nelson, Miha, Mountain Moulds, Pat Marlin or the fellow helping everyone get into swaging whose name eludes me right now.

The shame of it all is that this explosion of casting technology is happening at the same time that Obama and his ilk are on the verge of outlawing private handling of lead.

Having said all this I am quite certain that if Elmer were asked if he reqreted missing all this inovation, he would reply "Hell no, I invented it"!

[dbarnhart]

For me, casting is a hobby. The purpose of a hobby is to bring me pleasure and bring me back to reality. Hobbies are my mental therapy. I admit that I'm a tool junkie. That means that my philosophy on tools is that using them must bring me pleasure and ADD TO the enjoyment of the hobby. A tool that is aggravating to use detracts from the enjoyment of the hobby and is counter to the purpose of my hobby.

ergo: I put of with a lot of aggravations in my life but I won't put up with much aggravation from the tools in my hobbies.

[MBTcustom]

I dont mean to take one side or the other, but I can see darn good points from both ends of the bridge.
I have not read Elmer Kieth's writings (its on my to-do list) but I know very well about machinery produced and manufactured in his day and all about the short-comings and advantages.
First, a good mold is a good mold, and if there was a guy out there that had a mold that would definitely give excellent accuracy out of your gun, there isn't one of us that wouldn't drop $400 in a heartbeat. So when the mold was made or what method was used is irrelevant.
However, the fact is, that is Kieth's day, you had to design a boolit and send the drawing to the factory snail-mail style, and then wait till they could hand grind a cherry and cut the mold, then send it to Kieth. I'll bet the whole process took over a month.
Now, with the wonders of CNC lathes, Kieth could e-mail Tom at Accurate Molds, and have a custom mold in his hands in 1 week.
As far as the reloading equipment, Keith's presses were hand made out of cast iron and were probably scary accurate. You are probably the first person to lay so much as a fingerprint on you magnesium Dillon Precision.
The modern equipment makes things faster, thats it. Accuracy in this business is paramount and they had that down pat as good or better back then, than we do now. Certain things would definitely been an advantage to Elmer back then, and he most certainly would have taken advantage of them had he been able to, but the list of things that would have made his "wish it was faster" list would be short.
I personally believe that the products we have today will never be as good as what they had back then, because there is just no percentage in it. Hand cutting threads to match each-other, hand fitting pieces together for a smooth fit, doing little extras like rounding sharp corners etc all take an inordinate amount of work that no one will invest the time in. All of these things have been replaced by precision tolerances and simple operations that can be done quickly.
So do we have better equipment that Kieth did? In some ways, yes. But if I had my druthers, I would live in his day any old time instead of having to fight for a small measure of sanity in the screwed up remains of the America that he enjoyed.
Just remember to vote, or your not going to have anything to feed all that great equipment!

[williamwaco]

We DO have better equipment than Elmer. I started loading with the exact same equipment you are describing for Elmer.

I wouldn't trade my current tools for anything on the market at that time.

That said. My ammo today is not one whit better than I could load in 1956.

But it is a LOT more fun and a LOT less trouble to load.

My first varmint rifle was a Model 54 Winchester. See if you can visualize this:

It was a .22 Hornet on an action designed for the .30-06. It really looked funny with that tiny little magazine embedded in that great big bolt action with a stop pin to prevent the bolt from opening all the way to the back. It was big, It was heavy. It was stunningly accurate. To this day, I have never owned a more accurate rifle.

With my reloads using second hand 1950's era loading equipment. Using un-prepped, mixed headstamp cases. Never heard of trimming or neck turning at that time. With Hornady bullets and 2400 powder it grouped in one fourth to one half inch at 100 yards ( on a still day ).

The accuracy comes primarily from the user, not the tools.

.

[runfiverun]

y'all know elmer did have a star reloader in his reloading room, right?
he cast and reloaded to shoot, when he started it was a necessity.
he kept it up like most of us do out of habit, and the quality was superior to bought.
plus he was paid to write about it.

a dillon sizes, drops powder, seats a boolit,and crimps.
it don't do any more or less than that.

[Catshooter]

If I had to choose between using Elmer's equipment and only knowing what he did, I'd sure as heck use his equipment. The things I've learned here in the last seven years . . . I'd use Ideal 310 stuff to load/cast with first.

And he advanced the art tremendously.


Cat

[220swiftfn]

I just spent two days casting with my 4 cavity 454190 and my 3 cavity LRN 150 gr .38 for my son’s brace of Ruger 3 screws. I was using my deep iron skillet on a propane heater for a turkey deep roaster. With Spring break coming up I had to take advantage of having the house alone for the last time in a week. Then at the local gun show I picked up a Lyman 4500 and bolted it on my gun bench next to my Lyman 450. Life is good. I’ve got a bunch of H&I dies, top punches and molds, guns and dies.

Then I was looking at SIXGUNS by Elmer Keith, it shows pictures of his casting equipment. I realized we have better equipment than he did. Mr. Keith had a nice looking Saeco electric furnace, but his Saeco sizer lubricator and the Pacific reloading press didn’t look as nice as my equipment. I’ve got a Dillon 550 and a RCBS Rockchucker. I’ve got a Lyman Mag 20, a Big Dipper and this deep iron skillet with a propane heater contraption. Now if I could only live on a farm where I can fire my Sharps at coyotes from the kitchen table…


..........But he was a better shot..........:bigsmyl2:


Do we really have "better" equipment??? Maybe...... Look at the Belding and Mull Visible Measure, arguably the most repeatable measure out there...... also one of the older ones........ Or the old RCBS "A" presses that could be used as a bumper jack with the right modifications...... A lot should be said for the "craftsmanship" that is in the older stuff, instead of the tolerances of CNC mass produced "part A fits any slot B out there" stuff.....

Maybe I'm just saying this because most of my reloading gear probably KNEW Keith.....:holysheep



Dan

[220swiftfn]

Dillon MACHINES have been a factor in blowing up some irreplaceable antique rifles over the last few years............Mike venturino's friend SHRAPNEL blew up a 1 st gen Colt and a 1876 using a high volume machine...........The human factor is responsible as one distraction of a call mid stroke or short stroking a 550 can be a major BO-BO...........I sold my Dillon as the bigger ,faster
craze almost got me in trouble..........I'll make as good a bullet one at a time then risking quanity for quality..............

The problem is that sometimes people believe that an automated process reduces the attention necessary...... In fact, the opposite is true. I have a Square Deal "B", that sees thousands of rounds loaded, but I can tell you for a fact that all of them have powder, because I check (visual, before setting bullet). If ANY disruption occurs (phone, spouse, etc;.) either remove all rounds on the plate, or leave the press on the downstroke, so you KNOW where you left off......

That said, all my rifle rounds are on a single stage, quality over everything else......


Dan

[220swiftfn]

I would question whether or not we have better moulds. Elmer managed to get moulds made to his specifications.

I don't think he ever did...... Keith was always grousing about Lyman changing his designs.......


Dan

[220swiftfn]

I own a Star sizer and 2 Mihec brass moulds. Wonderful pieces of equipment.

Good as they are neither one is "better" than a good old fashioned Lyman mould or sizer. Very well made, yes. That does not make them better. Neither one inherently makes a better bullet than the equipment Elmer used.

Th very word better means it is capable of producing a better end product. I don't see that as the case at all. Makes me wonder how Elmer managed some of the shots he made when he had such inferior equipment.........

I would say "better" for the sizer, the 45 tends to shift and rotate a bit (leverage force coming from the side) Definately better sizing DIES that don't shave boolits..........


Dan

[Jammer Six]

I agree. Our equipment is better, starting with the metal and working out from there.

[Char-Gar]

I agree. Our equipment is better, starting with the metal and working out from there.

I have a 50's RCBS A2 that is made from cast STEEL and not cast iron. A few years back Terry Murback was talking with RCBS and asked them if they would consider making the A2 again. Their reply was there was no demand for a $600.00 single stage press.

I am still using the same Hollywood Micrometer Adjustable power measure that I bought in 1959 and it was used them. I have also bought RCBS and Redding powder measures but ended up selling them as the Hollywood was more accurate and repeatable. You can go back to the same setting on the micrometer dial and the charge will be spot on.

I am not trying to "dis" newer equipment, but to say that it is better and has better metal just isn't true. Presses and measure made 60 plus years ago, that are still loading ammo today, as good as they ever did, are not made from pot metal. Put the newer stuff in regular use for 60 years and them come back and tell me it is better and has better metal. Then, I just might listen to you. Until then it is just uninformed opinion passed off as fact.

[Char-Gar]

The problem is that sometimes people believe that an automated process reduces the attention necessary...... In fact, the opposite is true. I have a Square Deal "B", that sees thousands of rounds loaded, but I can tell you for a fact that all of them have powder, because I check (visual, before setting bullet). If ANY disruption occurs (phone, spouse, etc;.) either remove all rounds on the plate, or leave the press on the downstroke, so you KNOW where you left off......

That said, all my rifle rounds are on a single stage, quality over everything else......


Dan

When the progressive craze got started, I jumped in and bought a Square Deal to load 45 ACP and 38 Special ammo. I managed to double charge one 38 Special case. It didn't hurt the fine old Colt Officers Model, but I quickly sold the press down river.

As you said, these gizmos require more attention and not less. I bought a Redding turret for handgun and still load my rifle ammo on old single stage presses. My ammo is fully equal to that which can be produced on the latest double throw down whiz-bang gizmos.

I am not claiming that older is better, but I sure claim that newer is not better.

[runfiverun]

in the over the counter equipment i doubt it is better [probably designed to have a finite life and have larger tolerances]
but the custom equipment i believe is far superior.
at one time that would have driven the market and called for improvement from the major manufacturers.
now it's, lets see how cheaply i can do this. [yes this goes for the consumer]

[Dan Cash]

Hmmm.

I think IDIOTS using Dillon Machines have been a factor in blowing up blah, blah, blah etc.

Please do not blame a Machine for the failures of the guy pulling the handle.

Amen in Spades!

[theperfessor]

I'm not sure the mechanical equipment we have today is too much better than what Elmer had, but a lot of the reloading process is better due to modern electronics. I love it that I can use a smart phone or iPad and access the latest reloading data directly from the manufacturers. I love it that I can take digital pictures of targets, equipment set ups, etc. I love the digital readouts on the machines I use to make custom equipment.

Nice thing is that we have both the old and the new available to use.

[NoZombies]

In Elmer's day, the whole field of "Intellectual Property" law didn't even exist. Most of the stuff he did was not unique enough to patent, so all he got was the satisfaction.

While Ole' Elmer may not have patented (or been able to) a lot of his work, Intellectual property was around before he was.

[3006guns]

[QUOTE=theperfessor;Nice thing is that we have both the old and the new available to use.[/QUOTE]

That hit the nail on the head.

I have a Dillon and a Rock Chucker bolted to my bench, with a half dozen others of various makes available. What do I end up using for a lot of load development? A Lyman 310 tool! In truth, the Lee hand press is probably better as it uses standard dies (I have both) but the Lyman is smaller and easier to pack.

If you study reloading equipment starting in the mid fifties to the present, you'll see a progression of new ideas that really helped this hobby. I'd bet a cast iron dollar that 'ol Elmer would have killed for some of the equipment we have these days.

[largom]

We do have better metal alloy's today but that does not mean that the manufactures use them. They generally use what is satisfactury, not what is best. I do not really think our equipment is much better. It is much easier and faster to use. Do to the "fast lane" that many live in they mistake faster and easier for being better quality. I have a DRO on my Bridgeport mill, does'nt make the ole girl better but it does make her easier and faster to use. I started handloading in the 50's with hand held dies that produced ammo as good as what I make today with my Rockchucker's, as long as I did my part. I truely doubt if Elmer would have been impressed with a Dillon or any other progressive press.

Larry

[runfiverun]

i'll say this again.
elmer did own a star reloader.
i had a chance to buy it a number of years ago.

[LAH]

I don't think the molds Mr. Keith used are of the quality we have "available" to us. The same for rifles, scopes & sixguns. If you look at the 1000 yard game of his time & ours, you can't compare. I remember the time if you shot 10 inch 5 shot groups you were in the game. Today half that normally won't put you in the game. We have better rifles, better bullets, better scopes, better molds, & better sixguns "avaiable" to us because we have better equipment with which to make them.

When it comes to loading equipment, he had a Star loader. While they are great loaders & I take nothing from them I won't take anything from a Dillon 1000 or 1050 either. I've loaded on the former & own the latter.

The lead furnace he used I wouldn't consider better than my Magma Furnaces. His sizer/luber I wouldn't consider better than my old Star or new for that matter. I can have sizing dies any diameter I need from one of our members.

Now my opinion & a dollar or so will get you a cup of coffee so take it for what it's worth. But I do believe if Mr. Keith had the equipment I have in the time he lived he would have been a very happy camper. Again, just MHO.

[LAH]

And runfiverun..............it must be great to own that loader.

[Reload3006]

Gentlemen and Ladies we are living in the good ole days. Yep they used to get fields plowed with a horse but I would much rather do it with a modern tractor in an conditioned cab. Our equipment is a lot better or rather more convenient. I admire and respect Mr Keith His bullet design is IMO still the best and I have both Molds and Swage dies that use his design. But I have to agree with the OP Our equipment is much better. If you dont believe it I have an old horse drawn plow you provide the horse and I will use my tractor and plow lets see who does more with less fatigue.

[btroj]

Other than Lyman eliminating the "step" in the dies for the 45 lube/sizer I don't see things as "better".

Keith had moulds that produces good bullets. The proof was on his targets! He had an electric bottom pour pot. He had a lube/sizer. He had good dies and a few good presses.

A custom brass mould may be easier to cast with and we may derive more pleasure from it but does that make it better?

How many of you guys want a Cadillac Escalade pickup because it is "better"?

[1hole]

"If you look at the 1000 yard game of (Elmer's) time & ours, you can't compare. I remember the time if you shot 10 inch 5 shot groups you were in the game."

Most of that improvement rises from better optics, barrels, bullets and the use of chronographs to develop better loads, not because of signifantly better molds, lubrasizers and presses.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I never intended to compare my finished boolit quality with Mr. Keith or his shooting ability to mine in my OP, Elmer was the innovator IMO and what he conjured up is a guideline still used today. That’s my point. I’m just and average stiff, and I have 2 different Lyman sizer lubricators, a couple of different presses and a bunch of molds, several different furnaces. A guy who just works for a living today has better equipment than a regular Joe did back in Elmer’s time. Were Elmer Keith alive today I can only imagine what he’d produce, but some of the mystique of Keith was that he was born when those who tamed the frontier were still around to tell about it.

I still remember when I started out in the shooting world and wanted a gun like Elmer’s but couldn’t get one because of the Dirty Harry movies, a Model 29 was $750.00 in 1978 and you never saw them. I remember chasing around all the gunshops in the Portland area looking for an H&I die in .431 for my SBH.

I never intended to compare the progressives of today with Keith’s equipment, but that has been an interesting topic here. I appreciate the posts. On that note I attend matches where each shooter fires 700 rounds in 2 days, there are about 100 shooters and I don’t see guns blow up. I do appreciate the progressive when loading for those matches.

That Pacific pictured in SIXGUNS holds the cartridge at an angle, that design would drive me nuts. I appreciate RCBS.

I don’t know how he mixed his alloy’s, but I just order alloys and receive high quality product in the mail within a few days, this is too easy.

Getting on the internet and giving them your credit card number for anything you want is advancement in techo shopping that I really appreciate and Mr. Keith would have too.

If I had my choice I’d opt for a 50’s steel press over a cast one like Char-Gar brought up.

[LAH]

"If you look at the 1000 yard game of (Elmer's) time & ours, you can't compare. I remember the time if you shot 10 inch 5 shot groups you were in the game."

Most of that improvement rises from better optics, barrels, bullets and the use of chronographs to develop better loads, not because of signifantly better molds, lubrasizers and presses.

I will give you that but my point being we have better things because of better equipment [tools] to produce said things.

Do you consider the improvements in cast bullet bench scores for the same reasons you give above?

[maglvr]

I bet Elmer would be more than happy to pick that bone with you all afternoon.
His equiptment was made at a time, when PRIDE in craftsmanship meant everything. ;)

[1bluehorse]

Pretty darn interesting thread. About 50/50 I'd say..I have some sorta old equipment, 70's era Pacific stuff. The Multi-Power I still use but it is of a more "modern" design, compound leverage, O shape configuration etc; (the spent primer catcher, the well known "cup" was an option at the time, I think 3bucks.) It will do anything that the newer presses will do, but the design hasn't changed much since then. (except for the LCC with the "better" spent primer disposal.) I would defer to my idol ( in the subtrafuge, smoke and mirrors dept, Billy Clinton) "it would depend on your interpretation of the word (better)". As far as "pride in craftsmanship" ( I like that term) it's not lost today. I'll bet most here carry that with them everyday. To do the best you can at whatever you're doing. It's a simple work ethic...now, an automated machine has no ethics.

[Jammer Six]

Speaking as a carpenter, for the last 35 years I've wondered why people think modern craftsmen have no pride.

I'm not asking-- I've come to the conclusion that it's ignorance, so I'm not interested in your answer.

I've heard people say things like "yeah, they don't build houses like they used to!" and I think "thank god! because of that, you might actually live to get out of a burning house, if it's a modern building..."

So I figure people who say such foolish things simply aren't craftsmen, and don't know any tradesmen.

Carry on.

[theperfessor]

Jammer Six-

You make a good point. I know artists, tradespeople, engineers, and auto assemblers that all take a lot of pride in their work. And they do good work. But every field has its share of slack-jawed mopes. And "experts" who aren't. It's just the way it is.

After spending the last thirty years rebuilding a house built before a lot of modern building codes went into effect, such as three wire conductors, breakers not fuses, etc., and where there isn't a single wall, ceiling, or floor has standard stud spacing - I appreciate your comment in modern houses.

[runfiverun]

And runfiverun..............it must be great to own that loader.

i didn't buy it, i already had a couple of dillon's.
i am just pointing out that he did use the most modern equipment available to him.
much like we do.
some don't like lee stuff,others are cool with it.
he had his agenda and we have ours.
same as casting, some want the boolits to shoot, others cast to enjoy casting.
and some do it to get the best boolits they can for whatever thier game is.
his was shooting his handguns, and large rifles.
he was inquisitive and just happened to write about what he done.
i am sure he would be complaining about lymans being small, that tumble lube stank/stinks/s****s whatever.
i'd like to see some of his and 44 man's discussions about long range shooting though.

[LAH]

i'd like to see some of his and 44 man's discussions about long range shooting though.

Now that might be an overflowing can of night crawlers.

[zack]

Well, ya may have better equipment than Elmer had.

BUT! I bet ya don't have a Ten Gallon Hat.

[1bluehorse]

Well, ya may have better equipment than Elmer had.

BUT! I bet ya don't have a Ten Gallon Hat.

Uhmmmm, you may want to take a look at my avatar. :razz: And yes I wear one everyday..They are hand made from the Jackson Hole Hat Co.

[zack]

And yes I wear one everyday..They are hand made from the Jackson Hole Hat Co.

Ahh Bluehorse, Elmer would be proud.

[zack]

For you guy out there that like to read especially about guns and Elmer there's a fiction book called 'Pale Horse Coming' by Stephen Hunter. He writes in as charatcers, Elmer Keith, Ed McGivern, Bill Jordan and Charlie Askins. The old crowd of gunners. Lots of shooting and a pretty good read. About a 700 pages.

Think I'll go read a chapter of Sixguns and go to bed. Zack