Thoughts from another site about protection

[44man]

Been going back and forth, getting in trouble again. :bigsmyl2:
Some want a super light gun like a 329 with heavy 300 gr+ boolits for bear carry and others want a .500 S&W with a 2" to 4" barrel. Some think a 700 gr boolit in the S&W solves things.
Even the .454 with some factory stuff will let boolits move and tie up the gun.
The quest has been a super light carry gun that can fail you when you need it. Weight to carry for a man has gone by the wayside.
I say the gun weight must be a match to a load and boolit weight that will not make recoil so harsh or let boolits lock the gun.
I have not been able to get across that a gun that works all the time, every time even if it is a pound heavier is what you want, that making a gun too light or short takes away it's effectiveness. An X frame with a 4" barrel is still too heavy and takes too much away from the caliber, it is NOT a carry gun. Neither is a super light gun with so much recoil you will never hit anything and a second shot is a dream. Maybe because the second is not there.
What would all of you prefer for carry in bear country? Would not a combination that never let you down be better?
They got angry when I said to take the candy bars out of your pocket and add that weight to the gun! [smilie=l: Shoot boolits that are best, not too heavy for the gun.
I made the point about the man captured by Indians out west, stripped naked, then he ran away, outran the Indians and made it to St. Louis with no clothes, no food, no knife, no gun. Yet today hunters need a 4oz gun for backup.
I might have been tossed by now! :bigsmyl2:

[subsonic]

I am not sure that there is any handgun that will truley "stop" a bear attack in a short amount of time, but I am sure that shot PLACEMENT is going to be more important that what kind of gun it is, as long as it's something that will penetrate the skull or deep into the vitals.

I would not feel bad carrying my G20 10mm with 200gr TC flat points moving 1200fps, as I know if I can keep my cool, every shot within 21ft will land at the top of the front sight and this load will penetrate well. This gun is also not very heavy, even with 16rds of that ammo on board. A mag change and racking the slide changes it from CCW to CBW.

[Uncle R.]

It's akin to asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There's no "correct" answer. The best gun for a bear attack is the one in your hand when it happens. A 240 gr 429421 @ 1300 fps (Read: .44 magnum) in exactly the right place will give an instant stop. There is nothing you can fire from a hand-held weapon that will work if it's NOT in the right place. Speed, accuracy, "hitability" and reliability are paramount.
<
Most of the on-line comments on questions like this are just self-stroking from internet experts who will never get within 50 miles of a grizzly.
<
Come to think of it - me too. I'm gonna quit wasting my time on this subject.
<
Uncle R.

[subsonic]

Where I hunt Elk, there have been some very scarce (like 2 in 30 years) reports of grizzly attacks. My father in law personally knew a fellow that lived through a grizz attack there by fighting it off with a bowie. Not something I want to try thank you!!!! I will probably win the lottery before I ever see a grizzly in the wild, especially since I don't want to hunt one.

[Love Life]

I agree with carrying the best gun for the job. Unfortunately the bst gun for me is not the best for you, or for somebody else. It is all personal preference. I don't have to worry about grizzley bears hear. I worry about mountain lions. For them I carry a 4 inch .357 magnum loaded with good boolits.

[btroj]

The gun also needs to be shootable enough that a guy can practice with the intended ammo. No way do I want to depend upon a fun/load combo I am afraid of!
I would prefer my Ruger BH in 45 Colt. 4 5-8 in barrel makes it very carry able and with a 290 FP bullet at 100 fps it is very shootable.
Anyone who intends to carry an X frame Smith all day in a holster must be in far better shape than me! Either that or they are not as smart as me.

[jmsj]

We don't have Grizzlies here but we do have occasional issues here w/ Black bears and mountain lions. Last week we had a lion come up on the back porch and last fall we had a bear almost make it into the house via a window. There have been maulings from bears up here and I have been asked to dispatch nuisance/ aggressive bears. I carry a 4 and 5/8" barrel Ruger Bisley/Vaquero in 45 Colt. My load is a 300 grain FP moving along at 1100 FPS. It is not to bad to holster carry for long periods but can wear on me when backpacking. I have been keeping an eye out for used Taurus Tracker in 44 mag w/ a 4" barrel to try out.
All that said I have never shot either w/ a handgun. I have always used the rifle that I was carrying at the time.
jmsj

[Mal Paso]

I looked at this long and hard. 4" is the shortest barrel I would buy and Nothing Aluminum even if they add a little exotic metal to make it sound cool. The gun needs to be rugged enough to get the practice you need to get good with the TOOL. 3 1/2 pounds isn't a lot, my boots weigh more. A good belt is more important than the Holster. I like Galco. 4" Colt 44 mag with the supremely accurate 22g 2400 under Mihas H&G 503.

Now I'll take the flack.

[44man]

I am not sure that there is any handgun that will truley "stop" a bear attack in a short amount of time, but I am sure that shot PLACEMENT is going to be more important that what kind of gun it is, as long as it's something that will penetrate the skull or deep into the vitals.

I would not feel bad carrying my G20 10mm with 200gr TC flat points moving 1200fps, as I know if I can keep my cool, every shot within 21ft will land at the top of the front sight and this load will penetrate well. This gun is also not very heavy, even with 16rds of that ammo on board. A mag change and racking the slide changes it from CCW to CBW.
A better choice then a gun that can fail, that was my point. Guns that lock up are no good. Guns that wear are no good. Too heavy a boolit for the gun is no good. But you still need enough power so taking a .500 to 2" is folly.
I would feel better with a 1911 or a .45 Colt then some of the stuff these guys want to carry so the gun is not felt on the hip. Weight and power is a comfort. A 10mm is nothing short of a good .41 mag.
Can you picture anyone shooting 320 gr from a 329 without damage to the gun and the ability to hit a bear? That is a gun that has gas cutting big time on the blast shield and must be returned for repairs often. It can not take recoil either. Watching .454 factory ammo tie up guns on my range from boolit pull takes them away from bear protection and even deer hunting.
I really would take your G20 first. It works.
I talk dependability with enough power that you can hit with the first time.
I do not want a little .380 for a drugged up jerk and want a 1911.
Bears are tough, scary as hell and hard to stop. You have seconds to live. I want bigger, not the smallest, lightest gun made.
The argument is about the lightest gun on the hip, not if it works. I say that it must work. I never seen a .50 BMG in a 4" barrel just because it is BIG.
Talk about boolit placement. That is not easy. Have you ever had a big buck running full speed to you and been able to drop it? Now to hit a charging bear between the eyes---JOKE. Maybe one out of a million can do it, NOT ME. So you need to stop it with a shot that is off. 99& of hunters do not hit perfect with a rifle and we are talking a revolver here.
I have shot many running deer but what do I need? I need TIME. Do a quick draw on a bear at 20 feet coming 30+ mph and hit it in the head and you will be famous or dead.
I never, ever want to be in that situation so to read about those that expect to do it with inferior guns is another joke.
It must be terrible to have a gun quit when you need it.

[9.3X62AL]

The PROPER method for dealing with animals that might choose to have you for lunch is as follows--forge binding agreements with said species, like I have. Our bears and mountain lions know full well that I don't come into the mountains or wildlands to mess with them--so on their forays into my neighborhood, DON'T MESS WITH ME.

This has held up well for a number of years, with only one violation in Summer 2002. Marie and I manuevered away from that misunderstanding well enough, but I noted how puny the Redhawk/44 Mag seemed at the time. Think "Theory Of Relativity" here. The results of this experience include the purchase of the CZ-550 in 9.3 x 62, and to NEVER enter bear country without a RIFLE ready at hand to supplement the handguns that might be along. 286 grains of .366" Nosler Partition at 2400 FPS will at minimum even the odds just a little.

[subsonic]

Since there's nothing on the internet today, I'll keep typing about "bear" defense, eventhough the chance of needing it, for me (everybody?) is pretty dang slim.

I really think a 4" .44 or .45 revolver loaded with about 300gr moving about 1100fps could be the best choice for most people. The S&W Mountain guns are a good choice and still fairly robust (probalby more robust than most shooters....).

But 10mm autoloaders pack more total energy in reserve (kenetic, ME, you name it) than those 4" revolvers because they hold more shots and give more opportunities to save your bacon and a faster re-load. If a fellow was really thinking and wanted to save weight, he'd look real hard at the G29. Newer ones even have a light rail for night bears LOL! I wish Glock would have made the G36 in a 10mm variation. I saw one that was a custom that didn't work well because of magazine issues.

[44man]

The thing is how many shots can you get off in a few feet under extreme fear? How many will hit? Will they stop a charge?
But you see what I am saying about failures when you said a magazine failure with a Glock.
I have never and will never want a griz tearing down on me but to stop a semi with a toy or a failed gun is not in the cards. I think if I was fishing in griz country, I would have my .475 with me, it has a 7-1/2" barrel but I know it would work.
I have no experience with those large carnivores but the thought is still scary. You have too little time to save yourself, a second only. Even one shot might be your last so you can't add all the shots you might have.
I went to the other site and see I am restricted to a few things and can not go the the handgun hunting forum. [smilie=l:
I think in practical terms because even getting off two shots on a deer is very hard. I can tell you 14 shots at a huge bear at a few feet at his speed sounds very silly. None of us would ever get the gun out in the first place. It is a time issue so if you do get a shot, it better count.

[waksupi]

If you want to practice shooting a charging bear, use this method.
Get a tennis ball (equals the size of the brain in a bear), and find a wall you can shoot at. Throw the ball at the wall as hard as you can, and shoot it before it gets back to you.
If you can accomplish this, then try throwing it so it will bounce as it returns. Once you can dependable hit it while it is bouncing at you, then figure someway to also make it go back and forth sideways, as it is going up and down at full speed.
Once you have accomplished repeated hits on this ball, you may be qualified to shoot a charging bear, and stop it.
Best way is still to put the pistol right between the eye and ear when he has you on the ground. Try not to shoot your other elbow that is sticking out of the other side of the bears mouth.

[Mal Paso]

I think I've got the bear thing covered about as well as I'm going to. The thing that Really worries me and I've never seen discussed. How fast are you with ear plugs. [smilie=l:

Not sayin' I waste time on plugs but that top end load is pretty close to a flash/bang without protection. I fired one of those wimpy Blazer rounds with my offside ear uncovered and it rang for half a day.

[fecmech]

I always liked the one about the guy who carried a Beretta .22 pistol for bear defense. He said he always hunted with a buddy and figured he'd shoot him in the kneecap to deflect the bear!

[white eagle]

I say let them take what they want
1 good lesson is all is needed
no sense fighting over internet dribble
seen the idiots all over the board

[Love Life]

I will talk them to death.

[454PB]

A game warden was attacked by a 500 pound Grizzly here in Montana in 1987, and the event was photographed. At the time, our wardens carried model 19 S&W revolvers. He killed the bear with the .357, and saved his life.

The story and pictures here:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2008/01/grizzly-attack-caught-camera

[9.3X62AL]

I like a 357 Magnum DA revolver very much, but light-tackle angling metaphors don't translate well to bear attack prevention venues. Just sayin'.

[MT Gianni]

Very true Al, this is just a real life story of what happened when that was all that was at hand.

[snowwolfe]

Any revolver is at best, one of the worse choices you could make for carrying a weapon in defense of a bear attack. The only reason a lot of carry a revolver is because it is a compromise due to it's shortness and that it fits into a holster. Myself included as I carry a 4in S&W 500 because I don't want to lug around a rifle.

If a bear attacks you it is going to be close, real close. If you have the time to unholster and shoot you will be lucky to get off one aimed shot. Until you watch a brown bear you have no idea how fast they are capable of moving. And if it isnt close when you shoot, then you didnt need to pull the trigger in the first place.

[BruceB]

This discussion rears its head regularly on the Internet.

For my part the issue was settled many years ago.

I have PERSONALLY, me, myself, *I*, driven cast bullets from a .44 magnum revolver RIGHT THROUGH bison and moose, meaning: in this side, and OUT the far side, with sufficient remaining energy to kick up big divots on the other side. These were deliberately shot through the shoulders to see how the cast looad would perform.

The bullets were softened linotype 429244, weighing 265 grains. Speed was around 1300 fps, as I remember now...mighta been a bit higher.

Therefore, the issues are 1) placement and 2) penetration. The penetration with a heavy cast .44 or .45 bullet will take care of itself. The big factor comes down to the shooter, his state of mind, and his ability. As others have said, nothing under .41 need apply, and I believe .44 or .45 is better yet based on increased weight of the bullet (and a slightly bigger hole "to let air in and blood out")

I have shot bears at extremely close range, but not with a handgun. Still, I'm reasonably confident that my ability would meet the test at close range.....and believe me, with an incentive such as an oncoming bear, a whole new world will open. I'm reminded of gunwriter Jim Wilson's amigos laughing uproariously when he crawled out of a thicket after finishing-off a wounded pig.

He asked what was so danged funny, and they said, "That's the first time we ever heard a single-action fired full-auto." We can do surprising things when circumstances require such actions.

After seeing quite a few bears react to assorted bullets, I'd not worry too much....rapid repeated solid hits from a major handgun load WILL make the bear react to a large degree, and hopefully allow sufficient time to empty that pistola. If we get jumped from ambush...the circumstances will dictate the results.

Be alert in bear country.

[waksupi]

A game warden was attacked by a 500 pound Grizzly here in Montana in 1987, and the event was photographed. At the time, our wardens carried model 19 S&W revolvers. He killed the bear with the .357, and saved his life.

The story and pictures here:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2008/01/grizzly-attack-caught-camera

That was another self inflicted wound. Louis was show boating for the western writers there. He knew better. Also, consider the range he was at, and still needed that many shots.

[starmac]

I have never seen the weight really bother me, I carry a 44 blackhawk, with a 7 1/2 in barrel and don't even pay any attention to it.

My holster is just a plain leather one on my belt along with a knife and a leatherman, and the pistol pretty much goes unnoticed even on ling days walking, fishing, and riding the four wheeler.
I really couldn't justify getting a shorter barrel just for weight savings.

I see guys get all fancy, with about every design holster, so I guess carrying on the hip must bother some, I just never had that problem.
As far as a high capacity gun, at the distance you would have to shoot a bear in self defense, if the first shot doesn't turn it, you would be in for one heck of a fight.

[429421Cowboy]

....Every time this happens i say i won't get in another "eaten by a bear" threads but...
More to the point of the OP, i feel 1000% more confident that the 6th round in my 4.58" SBH will still fire when they dig it out of the bear poop and try it than i am in my ablity to actually hit the bear... A nice sized steel framed gun with a 4 .58-6" bbl, DA or SA, depending on what you have will probably give you the best chance at getting all the rounds to fire without bullet pull, be big and heavy enough to actually shoot, while still packable. I have hunted/hiked/worked in some dang rough country with that gun and never felt uncomfortable enough to rather NOT carry the gun. It also boils down to shooting the gun enough to KNOW what will tie it up and what won't and also to be good enough to hit anything with it! Which i honestly doubt a very large portion of the guys i run into carrying hand cannons in the mountains actually do.

[Lloyd Smale]

To be honest i dont know which gun id grab for daily carry for protection. Ive got 2 475s and 2 500 linebaughs. Both my 500s are 4 inch vaqueros and there probably the ones that would get picked. there short and light enough to carry in a hip holster and being fixed sighted both are very reliable guns. For daily carry it would probably be the stainless one. For a load it would be the same load they are both about allways shot with. A 450 grain bullet at about 1100 fps. Plenty stout enough to put down anything and the recoil is not so stout that it wants to rip the gun out of your hand. Ive killed 1200lb buffalo with that load out of both guns and it did very well. I know you dont agree with it but if im out in the woods just walking around or hunting and have a rifle I sure dont want to tote around a 8 inch heavy revolver too. My 500s dont weight anymore then a 5.5 inch blackhawk and pack a serious punch. to be honest though i wouldnt be a bit shy about carrying a short barreled blackhawk in 44 mag or 45 colt with a heavy cast load either. Or even a 4 inch N frame in 44 mag.

[white eagle]

well said Bruce

[MaxEnergy]

Any revolver is at best, one of the worse choices you could make for carrying a weapon in defense of a bear attack. The only reason a lot of carry a revolver is because it is a compromise due to it's shortness and that it fits into a holster. Myself included as I carry a 4in S&W 500 because I don't want to lug around a rifle.

If a bear attacks you it is going to be close, real close. If you have the time to unholster and shoot you will be lucky to get off one aimed shot. Until you watch a brown bear you have no idea how fast they are capable of moving. And if it isnt close when you shoot, then you didnt need to pull the trigger in the first place.

well then a rifle is also a poor choice. i have taken big game with a big bore revolver and loaded correctly it isnt giving anything up to a rifle

[44man]

Many of us agree. I am not against the gun choice as much as I am about what you shoot from it.
The trend has been to a boolit too heavy for the gun. Very light guns have a limit. Boolit pull and gun failure when you need it are still what I am concerned about. Too much recoil makes a second or more shots useless.
It surprised me when factory .454 cast loads locked up a SRH.
To have a huge X frame using a .500 S&W with a 2" barrel is just silly because the weight saved is nil. You lose the effectiveness of the caliber. That is different then too light of a gun but is still wrong.
Use a S&W 329 and stay with 240 to 250 gr boolits, not 350 gr.
It is the same thing as buying a .300 Weatherby with a 26" barrel---PERFECT, then cutting it to 18" because it is too long. Now get real, would not a 30-06 do better? A .308 in an 18" barrel is even better. You will be at 30-30 usage soon. The Weatherby is USELESS in 18".
As case size and capacity gets larger, you need more barrel length. Shorten and you should go to smaller cases but to think you can shorten and go to a boolit too heavy to make up is wrong.
Compare the .500 Linebaugh, the .500 JRH and the .500 S&W with 4" barrels. Would you say the S&W is better because it is bigger?

[9.3X62AL]

Very true Al, this is just a real life story of what happened when that was all that was at hand.

Roger that, Gianni. A Model 19 beats h--l outta throwing rocks, and appears to have had effect.

[44man]

That is what say. Give me a good .357 but keep the .357 Derringer away from me for bears.

[375RUGER]

pepper spray, guns are useless against griz:kidding:







But in all seriousness, I agree that the gun and load has to be managable and it has to go bang everytime the trigger is pulled until all rounds are expended.
Although, my 8 3/8" X frame 500 is fun to shoot, I don't think it is a good choice for bear country as defense. It might be better (handle) if it was 4 or 5", but not to save weight. It just doesn't handle that well, especially if you need to get it out quick. My SBH .44mag would be a much better choice, for me anyway. It jumps out of the holster and never misses. (I do sometimes)
If those guys want to save weight, try telling them to leave that extra 15-20# of er water that's stowed away under their belt at home. They could carry 2 extra gallons of water instead. You should get banned for sure for that.

[white eagle]

I wonder how many of these experts can actually
face a charging,snarling,drooling bear and even pull their favorite
mega magnum hand cannon

[454PB]

I posted this because I have no clue what does and doesn't work for bear protection. Yeah, I've stumbled onto a few black bears while hunting, but they always run the other direction. I carried a minimum of .44 magnum when hunting until the last few years, then started carrying either a P-90 with heavy cast boolits, or a P-89 with an extended magazine and 115 gr. jacketed hollowpoints. I guess I could use the gun on myself if a Grizzly was chewing on my leg.

If the warden in this attack had been holding a shotgun with slugs or 00 buckshot, he probably wouldn't have had the time or room to use it without shooting himself, and he probably would have dropped it when the bear trap fell from the truck.

We, as armchair quarterbacks, can have our opinions, but seeing what it's really like and how quickly it can happen is sobering.

Just a few days ago there was a radio news report that said the Mt. Dept. of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks says bear spray is far more effective in defending against bear attacks.

[starmac]

My wifes cousin killed a black bear with a browning high power 9 mil, but it roughed him up quite a bit before he got it dead. lol

[Beau Cassidy]

I would take my 8 shot Smith 327 with 200 Grain Keiths. Lots of sectional density and tolerable recoil in a light package. Plus 7 rounds for the bear and 1 round for me if 7 don't work.

[44man]

I know darn well I could never get a gun out fast and so many hunters could not either. I would tend to have the gun in hand or at least hanging at hand level from my sling. The reason I ever brought it up was armchair experts like me kept posting stuff I would never use because of all the failures I have seen guys have on my range and at the club. My premise being that any gun or load that can fail should never be carried so I took heat over that statement. It looks like I am still on the site but I will not make common sense statements anymore.
I will never be in griz or brown bear country but I have a lot of experience with LARGE black bears in PA while archery hunting, some well over 400#. I know the feeling but was helpless because you can not carry a gun while archery hunting.
One time I had a tree stand close to an apple tree and a friend was about 100 yards away. He was afraid to go over 10 feet high. I heard what sounded like a buck snort, then my friend was screaming bloody murder.
I had to climb a little tree next to the one my stand was in and step over. I was sitting and used the bow pull up rope to tie myself in.
I got ready for what I thought was a deer running my way. Then my tree whipped hard. I looked down to see a huge bear climbing my tree. He had tracked me to the tree. I had to hold my legs out and take my arrow to poke him just in case. I was able to talk him down. He went up the apple tree and broke it up, got down, ate a bushel, back up and down to eat more. When he left, he rammed his shoulder into my tree, making me whip more.
Back at the road, there was a guy in the road. This bear had broken through his tent camper, tore it up and scattered his clothes all through the woods. They had no fear of man at all.
You dare not shoot a bear out of season in PA plus all you have is a bow. I really had little fear of them but all the encounters I had should have allowed some protection. A 400# plus bear needs something that works. Some of those things went 800# around camp. They would come in at dark, run guys off their tables and eat their food. One guy shot at one, missed and the arrow bounced into his truck tire! :veryconfu
Many times I had bear step in my footprints and follow as I walked out. I never had an arrow on my bow when walking---what if???
Just maybe I have been around more big bears then any armchair expert! [smilie=s:
Think about a dog attack then about even a 200# bear! Mountain lion? Wild boar? You are toast!

[tek4260]

Sounds like I would have to be a bit of a law breaker and carry a handgun at least if bears are that much of a problem! The game warden would have to understand.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gunsite Shooting Academy has a Single Action Defensive Pistol Class they put on a few times a year.

Going to a class like this would make it so you could draw your gun and fire it in a high stress situation.

Being able to react in a favorable manner under stress is what this thread should be about.

Anything out of a .41 .44 or .45 is going to be more than enough to kill a charging bear if you can actually hit the thing.

IF you don't have the mechanics of the draw down to a rote response you're goona be lunch.

I can do it with a Glock auto pistol and a Kydex holster, but I can't do it out of a leather holster with my Rugers.

I need to be drilled for a few days with that rig so I have the actions well imprinted, and can do them without thinking.

If you can't draw your gun and place 2 shots into a 1 foot square at 7 yards in less than 2 seconds, you are way behind the curve.

Believe me it is not that hard to learn how to do, you just have to go to the right place to learn.

Front Sight, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Sig Sauer, are the big names. If you haven't gone to one of these schools you are really missing out on your true potential.

I used to think I was a pretty good shot and could think my way thru any situation. I can assure you that I was wrong! You can't think your way thru a gun fight or a bear attack, you only have 2 seconds to do something, and you must get it right the first time!

Most people can't even say their name right in 2 seconds!

Training trumps caliber and barrel length.

Randy

[Southern Shooter]

What would all of you prefer for carry in bear country? Would not a combination that never let you down be better?


The only thing I have is the same thing some of ya'll have read about in my other threads. Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull. It is short but I can hit ok with it out to 25 yards firing double-action. And, I can draw it fairly quickly from my chest holster.

I was thinking that I would load the first 3 chambers with 264 grain hardcast at 1,200 FPS and the last 3 chambers with 362 grain hardcast at 1,050 FPS.
42942

42943

I am sure that attacks happen fast...maybe, too fast to respond to in most situations. BUT, in the event I can get off a few shots I was thinking that the first 3 shots, being less recoil, could be fired on target more quickly. Then, if whatever was after me is still in pursuit, it must be right upon me. So, then I would try and get off a shot or two of my heavier bullet.

There may be no sense in this approach. Just something I thought about.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I carry a Colt Anaconda in 45LC with a 4" barrel. 320gr cast at about 1200fps. It rides in shoulder rig.

Bridger did not stroll all the way to St Louis, it was about a hundred miles to the trappers camp.

Rich

[starmac]

Just curious, have any of you guys read the books bear tales and bear tales 2.

I have read of many guy shooting bears multiple times with LARGE magnum rifles.

Anybody that I've ever heard of that was charged, even bluff charged felt undergunned, even with the largest of magnum rifles.
I carry a 44 and pray that I can turn a bear giving time for more shots, if the need ever arises.
I have zero confidence of actually killing one in the few feet on a dead charge that you would have to work with.

[Ed K]

This forum has thread after thread recording how we are generally not able to stop a deer DRT with a big-bore cast boolit rather it is a rare ocurrence. Funny how threads like this one ask the same question of a similar sized gun vs griz and expect a different answer.

I guess I don't see and harm in the the discussion for the sake of it. Thankfully nothing bigger than a black bear around here. So I don't get worked up about it and just check in on threads like this from time to time to see what all the chatter is about.

[Southern Shooter]

This forum has thread after thread recording how we are generally not able to stop a deer DRT with a big-bore cast boolit rather it is a rare ocurrence.

So, it can be done...has been done??

Is your contribution to this thread that, if a person is hauling a full backpack and is unable to sport a rifle, he should carry no weapon at all?

hhhhmmmmmm...I wonder why companies like Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Double-Tap, Grizzly Cartridges, Cor-bon, etc., even exist if big-bore cast boolits don't work.

Seems to me that there is a place for such guns and ammunition in the wild as long as they are combined with forward thinking and safe practices.

Thanks

[Ed K]

So, it can be done...has been done??

Is your contribution to this thread that, if a person is hauling a full backpack and is unable to sport a rifle, he should carry no weapon at all?

Nope - reading into my comment way too much...



hhhhmmmmmm...I wonder why companies like Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Double-Tap, Grizzly Cartridges, Cor-bon, etc., even exist if big-bore cast boolits don't work

Seems to me that there is a place for such guns and ammunition in the wild as long as they are combined with forward thinking and safe practices.

Thanks

I never said anything like "big-bore cast boolits don't work"... I believe I pointed out something to the effect of our very own threads might bear out a deer hunter maybe having a 1 or 2 out of 10 chance of a DRT using a cast boolit even though there may be a near 100% kill rate provided the hits are good and the tracking is done. That's a far cry from "cast boolits don't work". Sure, deer hunting and griz defense are two different things and I'm not going to speculate that a cast boolit shot would be anything short of a 100% DRT on a griz if you brain him on the first shot. I'll just man up and be the first one to admit I probably couldn't double-tap a pair of CNS shots into a charging animal. Someone earlier in the thread suggested it was akin to bouncing a tennis ball of a wall and drillling it before it could get past you. So if I am finding fault, it is not the cast boolit but the delivery man that is suspect.

Hey, each to their own. My choice is a 44 mountain gun and I already pointed out there are no griz in my neighborhood but I like it anyways. Sure, a guy ought to be able to pack anything he wants - anything.

[Southern Shooter]

Ok, I can agree with you there. I have very similar sentiments. Thanks for clarifying.

[Snyd]

I've lived in Interior Alaska for 21yrs. I see griz every year and always pack a gun whether it be a day hike, berry pickin, fishin or moose hunting. I'm no expert and don't claim to be. Here's my take on it...

I started out packing a 44mag SBH on it's own belt carrying it crossdraw years ago. After a few years I found myself leaving it in the tent or the car, whatever. I sold it and bought a Ruger Redhawk, 4" barrel 45 Colt. I started casting boolits and handloading and ended up with a 355gr WFN at 1100fps. I pack it in a Simply Rugged pancake holster strongside and the holster is on my pants belt, not a separate gun belt. I ALWAYS have it. As primary gun hiking, fishing, berry pickin. Backup gun rifle hunting or handgun hunting with the scoped SBH BisHunter. The only time I don't pack it is sheep hunting.

I've never had an "encounter" with a griz but I have avoided possible encounters. Sometimes just by mere luck. I killed one once with my 325 wsm, 220 gr SierraGamekings at 2800fps, 165yds. It didn't die easy or stop kicking until I shot it in the spine. This was a small Interior Toklat griz.

The only way to "stop" a griz is to be fortunate enough to take out the CNS. They operate well on low blood pressure. You could blow up his heart and he could still take out you, your wife, your buddy and his wife and your camp before running off a few hundred yards.

Having said that. I've come the the conclusion that I want a minimum of 350gr .452, 1100-1300 fps and I shoot a lot. And that means DA with the Redhawk. The handgun is a punch press (to steal the term). I want a boolit that will travel straight and deep to increase my odds of breaking through bone and meat and taking out the CNS. And in a gun that I will ALWAYS carry that I have shot a few hundred lbs of boolits through.

I've since turned my 45 Colt RH into a 454, magnaported it and also have a 454 levergun. I will pack this on occasion in the berry patch or fishing with the wife. If she's a ways off and something happens I may have a chance to keep her from getting it. Here are my two bear guns. I've recently worked up this one load for both guns to simplify things. I do also have a 435gr load for the levergun but it won't hold crimp in the 4" RH. This load cycles reliably in the levergun and does not jump crimp in the RH.

I have shot a lot of different loads in both of these guns and feel confident with them. I think that's a huge part of it. I could push this load harder but there is no need. I do have a load that hits 1300in the RH but the OAL is too long for the levergun.

1655 and 1215 4rnd avg fps. 10 in the tube of the levergun and 6 in the RH.

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/454Snyd_03.jpg

[jmsj]

I have read of many guy shooting bears multiple times with LARGE magnum rifles


This does not have to do with a magnum rifle and Grizzly Bear but a .308 Winchester, a .44 Magnum and a Black bear.
I was once asked to see if I could dispatch a Black bear that had mauled a kid in a private camp ground that I live about 3 miles away from. The campers had used poles and sticks to beat and stab the bear to get the kid away from the bear. When I got there the bear had returned and he was MAD. When he saw me I was about 50 yards away. He puffed up like he was either going to charge or bolt. I fired my .308 winchester rifle and hit him in the lungs and he sat up screamed and started swiping and trying bite at the spot where the bullet hit him. I fired, hit him in the lungs again and rolled him. I was running up to put one more in him and he took off running. I fired and hit him in the lungs a third time and he went down again only to get up again. But now I could hear him wheezing and struggling for breath. He turned away into the timber and I fired and hit him in the ponch (the only target I thought I had) but he kept going. He made it to the creek and started upstream. I chased him upstream until I saw him climbing out of the creek and he was broad side. I was out of bullets in my .308 so I fired my .44 mag and hit him in the front shoulder and he went down but started crawling into the willows. Not using good judgement I chased him into the willows. About 20 feet into the willows I saw him and he was in bad shape but he still tried to turn around and come at me. He made about a half step and fell over, I put one more into his spine just below the skull.
I was told not to shoot this bear in the head because the Game and Fish needed to test part of the head for rabies. With as fast as this was going on, I very very much doubt that I would have had the skill or confidence to take a head shot.
I have shot bears before using spot and stalk, over dogs when the dogs have treed or run a bear to ground into a cave but the amount of abuse this bear was able to take amazed me. This was not a big bear, I guess he only went about 200 pounds. I talked w/ a fellow member here that has taken many tough, large and dangerous animals about this and he respectfully told me that I had made two tactical errors for going after a bear that has his adrenaline pumping.
1) use more gun- ie. a 45/70 or 12 gauge slugs
2) Blow the running gear out from under them.- use enough gun to break both
shoulders and/or hips.
I did not submit this post as a boast only to put a little perspective to this thread as to how tough these bears can be.
I have also hit a bear w/ a .300 Win. mag. and had to trail him 3.5 miles but that is a story for another day.
jmsj

[white eagle]

I have killed one bear myself
a large boar 435 # I made the first hit in the heart @ 7 yds
and made a second hit broadside running @ 15 yds thru the lungs w/300 wm
yes they are tough
that is why I posted earlier how many could actually face one down
I would kinda think it would be circumstantial but a tough proposition @ any rate
I do believe that Swede says it best
More people die from worrying about getting ate by a bear then get ate by a bear.

[bearcove]

Years ago a friend of mine shot a 8 1/2 ft brown bear down by Sitka.

With a 338 WM took the the top of the heart and made it look like hamburger.
That bear loped off and went about a quarter mile.

For me it is funny to think you will STOP a big pissed off bear with a hand gun. I take one cause at least you can fight back.

And I feel better knowing I'm more than slow moving snack food.

[Southern Shooter]

I take one cause at least you can fight back.

That is all a handgun is about....a CHANCE....slim or not, to survive. And, only used after you have done all you can to avoid a conflict.

That goes for out in the wild or home in the suburbs.

[Snyd]

That is all a handgun is about....a CHANCE....slim or not, to survive. And, only used after you have done all you can to avoid a conflict...

And it makes a good noise maker, hopefully when you miss that point blank shot the muzzle blast and noise will be enough to turn him around. LIke with these guys...


http://youtu.be/uMbnmLLnsfw

[Southern Shooter]

Well, they survived. LOL Nothing says you have to strike or kill the bear to consider it a success.:bigsmyl2: I wonder if an underwear change was in need after that experience.

Seriously, I doubt a rifle would have been any use in that situation. To slow to engage in tight quarters.

[jmsj]

For me it is funny to think you will STOP a big pissed off bear with a hand gun. I take one cause at least you can fight back.


Not saying you can't stop one with a pistol but I have to agree with you bearcove.
jmsj

[bearcove]

Its been done. 2 guys shot a moose and went back to their skiff to get butchering tools. Left the rifles, one put on a model 29. Cutting up moose, bear comes and starts beating them up. Try boxing with a 8' bear. Goes back and forth and the guy gets a shot at bear after distracting it from chewing on his buddies leg. Killed it. Shot traveled threw lung and hit SPINAL column.

They won that fight but not by overwhelming firepower.

True story

[Snyd]

Ya, that was the 2 guys and the 44sbh hanging on the tree. The guy was getting mauled and the other guy could'nt get the gun out of the holster on the tree and then I think had trouble cocking it.

Then there was the guy a few years ago in Anchorage who was out for a walk, took the 454 Alaskan with him at the last minute, heard something coming up behind him and killed this sucker....

http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html

He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger. He's not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

"Total luck shot," he said.

"It doesn't get any closer. He slid by me on his chin when I shot him," Brush said. "I was backpedaling as fast as I could. I wasn't even aiming. I tripped over my own feet as I pulled the trigger."

Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html#storylink=cpy


http://media.adn.com/smedia/2009/08/13/22/716-4618472.25437.original.standalone.prod_affiliate.7 .jpg


http://www.takdriver.com/showthread.php?723-Bear-Killed-in-Self-Defense-with-Ruger-454-Casull-Revolver

"No doubt that God was
with me, as I brought my Ruger .454 Casull (and
Some "hot" 350 grain
solids) just for the heck of it, and managed to
Draw and snap shoot
(pointed, never even aimed!) from the hip! Total
Luck shot!"

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv72/gearchecker/just%20stuff/abear2.jpg

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv72/gearchecker/just%20stuff/abear1.jpg

[bearcove]

Yeah, could of been a sbh. That sounds right.

LOVE the claw picture! Puts it into perspective.

[runfiverun]

that bear looks pretty gaunt, muscle mass missing from the shoulders and neck.
looks early spring, that bear was desperatley hungry.
i give up a little bit of easy carry for the extra control, i have walked up uncomfortably close to two black bears while hunting,[ one instance would not have been pretty if it were a female with cubs] and have seen a few grizzlies north of here.
i carry my 445 with the 6" bbl when just hiking or hunting, and with the 4" bbl if backpacking or carrying my hip packs.
300 gr flatnosed swaged brass cases with ww+ tin bonded cores, over aa-1680.
not a long range set-up, and not target accurate.
but i can handle it and shoot it in double action pretty well.

[olafhardt]

My dad shot a hog with a rock from a sling shot and it rolled over and died. I once chopped a guinea fowl's head completely off, it jumped up and attacked me. I had to fight it off till it quit. I once shot a squirrel five times at fairly ciose range with a 16 gauge, all of its legs were broken so I finished it off with the butt stock. I find these memories un pleasant. I expect most of snot noses braying about handgun stopping power have never killed any thing.

[tek4260]

I find it funny that people will take a condescending tone when it comes to bear protection and the firearms used, all the while carrying a high cap semi, 3 mags, and a BUG to go to the grocery store......:roll:

[Slam'n Salmon]

Don't know what you mean. I just take my wallet.

Don't own a semi auto anything

Don't know what a BUG is

[tek4260]

I guess the point is that someone is called "prepared" when carrying all that stuff daily around town that I mentioned in the earlier post. Then when someone asks an opinion on what they are carrying for bear, or say what they are carrying, people jump out of the woodwork to tell them what they have is wrong and all options are wrong.

[tek4260]

And it makes a good noise maker, hopefully when you miss that point blank shot the muzzle blast and noise will be enough to turn him around. LIke with these guys...


http://youtu.be/uMbnmLLnsfw



I'd be willing to bet he didn't shoot the water.... or at least he wasn't trying for the water..... :)

[bearcove]

When it first came out, it was just a miss.

Guess it sounds better to say you were trying to miss.

[bearcove]

I guess the point is that someone is called "prepared" when carrying all that stuff daily around town that I mentioned in the earlier post. Then when someone asks an opinion on what they are carrying for bear, or say what they are carrying, people jump out of the woodwork to tell them what they have is wrong and all options are wrong.

I think it is more "paranoid" than prepared.

Unless you have a good reason, like carry large amounts of money, or something like that. Only time I've carried in town is when I used to collect rents. Always on the 1st and 2nd of month sometimes more than $5000 in cash and people knew what I was doing.

[ole 5 hole group]

I have trouble believing that 454 Casull guy with how it went down but he did shoot that big boy and the trooper didn’t give him a ticket, so enough said by me.

I have been within a yard of a blackie in the great outdoors twice in my short lifetime and I can say with absolute certainly that they are fast and hit with authority. They will cover 30 feet from a dead stop before you can clear leather and they will flatten pine pecker poles without breaking stride when on a mission and yet can slide silently across a gravel road. I would think when contact is made you'll be dazed from the impact, so the 1st couple of bites shouldn't hurt much.

I have had several encounters with blackies and the two mentioned above were complete surprises and scared hell out of them and they turned and burned and you really need to experience it, as seeing them run flat out at distance just doesn’t cut it.

The experiences never affected me, as everything happened so fast and he was in full retreat, so I didn’t get a chance to be afraid – just a little more cautious for the rest of the trip climbing up rock ledges off the lake to stretch my legs & take a leak. We also made sure to talk and put the canoes down on the rock, so a sleeping bear could hear us if he was within a half mile.

If a brown or black puts on an all out charge on your sick **** at 50 feet and you had no indication of his presence prior to the charge; I’ll put my money on the bear to knock you to the ground and chew on ya a bit before walking off doing what he was doing before your arrival and I don’t care what type of revolver you have in your holster or rifle slung on your shoulder.

We are just plain lucky they don’t hate us.

[Southern Shooter]

bearcove,
Have you ever worked closely with the criminal population? I can promise, that a person does NOT need large amounts of cash to become a target of crime/assault/robbery.

Paranoid? No. Frankly, the general population is naive when it comes to criminal thinking and the ease at which it pushes certain persons to random violent behavior.

I don't carry an arsenal around with me. But, I am "prepared".

[x101airborne]

I have to say..... The taurus Tracker 44 is what I would carry if I were goin into bear country. It is light, small, easy to carry....... POWERFUL and fairly reliable. Now, shooting full power loads, I did have to return the revolver to the factory for replacement / rebuild every 1000 rounds or so. But I had to do the same with my model 29 smith. and at almost twice the cost!
My only hangup with the Taurus is the ported barrel. I loved shooting it from the bench and range with plugs in, but the first time I shot without..... DANG THAT THING WAS LOUD!!!
Now that could have been the full power 240 grain loads, or that could have been the weapon. Whatever. My left ear still rings. But I could hit a 12 inch bull at 100 yards fairly quick with all 5 rounds and did several close range drills shooting from the hip at 10 feet. I was satisfied with the grips and the weapon till I got to round 950 or so.
To do it all over again...... I would go the taurus.

And no, I cannot throw a ball and hit it coming to or going away from me. But that is what I would carry.

[Bret4207]

I don't live in Grizzly/Brown/Polar bear country, so I will restrict my post to the carrying part. I imagine that I've carried more than most folks here and a heavier load than most other who didn't work in the LE arena. Those that find that ol' hog leg becoming a nuisance, dragging your trousers down, making life difficult, need to get a proper belt. Get a real gun belt and don't hitch it to your pants. It may not be cool, but it's a lot better when you're packing 5-6 lbs of gear on a belt.

[44man]

I don't live in Grizzly/Brown/Polar bear country, so I will restrict my post to the carrying part. I imagine that I've carried more than most folks here and a heavier load than most other who didn't work in the LE arena. Those that find that ol' hog leg becoming a nuisance, dragging your trousers down, making life difficult, need to get a proper belt. Get a real gun belt and don't hitch it to your pants. It may not be cool, but it's a lot better when you're packing 5-6 lbs of gear on a belt.
I agree. I never said anything about the gun choice or caliber on the other post though. Just using what you feel good with but to make sure it works and don't feed it wrong.
I did infer you need enough gun and to have 14 rounds is kind of a joke for bear but the whole thing was too many wanted to use way too heavy a gun but shorten the barrel to nothing or use too light of a gun and stuff it with a bullet 3X too heavy.
All is different then being on the street.
The point was that if you can't keep a gun running on the target range and hit what you shoot at, get a better set up.
Like the bear picture, you might just have enough luck to get off one shot and without being able to aim, it better work.
It is a fact that a lot of the guns used for BG's are not the same as anyone will hunt large game with. A nine with the proper bullets, a .357 or a .40 is what you want and at the heavy gun end, a 1911.
The .44 was proven to be a poor BG stopper, too much and fast penetration. The mixing of what you would carry on the street to what makes a bear stopper gets out of hand.
Now think of the guy that wants a .500 X frame but cuts the barrel to 2" because the gun is too heavy and carries 700 gr boolits! Next is the guy with a 329PD with 320gr+ boolits. How about 14 quick expanding bullets from a Glock?
You have to find that stuff funny! :mrgreen:
I said if you have a good gun but it is 2oz too heavy, leave the candy home or take the change out of your pocket. Flames flew! [smilie=1:
This always turns up with what is carried on the street is applied to what you would carry for a bear attack. Without ever being in that position, I think a big brown or griz is 1,000,000 times more dangerous then a crack head in a hoody. He will point a gun sideways at you but the bear has speed, claws and teeth!
Bret has said it right, if you can't carry, get a better belt and that might be the best answer that I ever seen.

[saz]

I always have my 4 5/8" SBH 44mag in a simply rugged pancake holster set up for crossdraw with a GOOD belt. Lee 310 over Lil Gun @1200fps. I have never felt "undergunned".
On the occasion I am doing something that allows me to sling/carry a rifle I have a 16.5" barreled 454 Puma. GB Hammer boolit (old style Lee 300- drops about 330gr) over Lil Gun @1750fps. I have pushed it up to 1900ish but accuracy goes away and recoil becomes pretty bad- cant even keep the forearm in my hand when you light it.
Granted there are plenty of guys on here that spend more time in the woods than I do, and this discussion can be argued to death. My recommendation to people that are not too firearm savvy, (I get asked a lot- poeple that get stationed in AK) is carry the largest thing you can shoot accurately. Then if they want I take them to the range with me and let them shoot some of my guns to get an idea of what they might or might not like. Granted, a 9mm isnt exactly an ideal choice, but it is better than throwing grapes or harsh language. Like the old saying goes, a 380 in the pocket is better than a 45 in the glovebox.

[Bret4207]

I agree. I never said anything about the gun choice or caliber on the other post though. Just using what you feel good with but to make sure it works and don't feed it wrong.
I did infer you need enough gun and to have 14 rounds is kind of a joke for bear but the whole thing was too many wanted to use way too heavy a gun but shorten the barrel to nothing or use too light of a gun and stuff it with a bullet 3X too heavy.
All is different then being on the street.
The point was that if you can't keep a gun running on the target range and hit what you shoot at, get a better set up.
Like the bear picture, you might just have enough luck to get off one shot and without being able to aim, it better work.
It is a fact that a lot of the guns used for BG's are not the same as anyone will hunt large game with. A nine with the proper bullets, a .357 or a .40 is what you want and at the heavy gun end, a 1911.
The .44 was proven to be a poor BG stopper, too much and fast penetration. The mixing of what you would carry on the street to what makes a bear stopper gets out of hand.
Now think of the guy that wants a .500 X frame but cuts the barrel to 2" because the gun is too heavy and carries 700 gr boolits! Next is the guy with a 329PD with 320gr+ boolits. How about 14 quick expanding bullets from a Glock?
You have to find that stuff funny! :mrgreen:
I said if you have a good gun but it is 2oz too heavy, leave the candy home or take the change out of your pocket. Flames flew! [smilie=1:
This always turns up with what is carried on the street is applied to what you would carry for a bear attack. Without ever being in that position, I think a big brown or griz is 1,000,000 times more dangerous then a crack head in a hoody. He will point a gun sideways at you but the bear has speed, claws and teeth!
Bret has said it right, if you can't carry, get a better belt and that might be the best answer that I ever seen.

I don't believe the 44 Mag was shown to be a poor stopper, but rather that it was hard to recover for follow up shots and that over penetration was a concern. Politics also played a part in it I'm sure. It's part of the same reason the 357 wasn't issued by many depts, hollow points too. And the recovery issue is why the 9 was chosen often over the 45.

[44man]

I don't believe the 44 Mag was shown to be a poor stopper, but rather that it was hard to recover for follow up shots and that over penetration was a concern. Politics also played a part in it I'm sure. It's part of the same reason the 357 wasn't issued by many depts, hollow points too. And the recovery issue is why the 9 was chosen often over the 45.
It was a long time ago with the original factory loads. But it did come down to recovery and over penetration and is the same reason the .41 never took off for the police carry. At that time the .357 was best and the .38 could get you dead. Original nine bullets were as bad as the .38.
But components and loads change.
Yet what is good for BG's is totally wrong for a bear where you want penetration and energy, BOTH.
Personally, if I was in big bear country I would want my .475 or .500 JRH with the same loads and boolits I use for deer. Next would be the .44. I do not want a .40 with 14 rounds.
For BG's it would be a .357, .40 Glock or a 1911, I still do not like a nine.
For war I want a real gun too. The M1 would kill someone behind a tree but the little .223 is a huge waste of ammo and only good for the enemy in the open. Shoot a million rounds to keep them down but kill none of them. Look at statistics of rounds fired for each kill---SAD!
Bouncing bullets off a bear's skull or going through the entire bear is the choice you need to make. It will never be the same as defending yourself from a crackhead.
I told all of you about the guy that worked White House security that was here shooting. Puffed up important guy. Could not keep rounds on paper at 10 yards. My friend took his gun and poked the center out. The guy watched me shoot 1" targets at 100 yards with a big revolver but refused to shoot my gun, scared hell out of him. He never came back. I hope he is protecting Obama!
LEO's are not the same, some are super but many can't hit their own foot and recoil scares hell out of them.
It always comes down to the individual shooter.

[ole 5 hole group]

Probably should have just stayed out of this thread but since I didn't I'll just add this and shut up. I just don’t see anyone stopping a full-on charge from a black or brown at close range with a revolver unless Lady Luck is at his beck & call. I think you might turn them and that is just as good but in any event you better have a lanyard attached to that revolver/pistol.

I carry when I venture into the backcountry and I know it’s mainly for my peace of mind but if I ever unknowingly venture into Harm’s Way and get the time to come on target – I’ll make it count, so if he sends me to my Maker first, I’ll know I’ll have company shortly thereafter.

On that 1st nose to nose encounter I spoke of in the above post; that blackie snapped and bowled over 3 to 4 inch diameter pecker poles in his haste to get away from me and he didn’t go 300#’s. You could hear him for a good 5 to 10 seconds crashing through the vegetation, so all I can imagine if he made contact with you is - whatever might have been in your hand a split second before contact, probably wouldn’t be within reach for the duration of the scuffle without a lanyard.

Bret4207 is correct about the 44, as it’s a terrific BG stopper if you place the bullet correctly. A few guys in BP & BNDD carried it before the suits made policy against carrying it on duty.

Any of you LE guys ever light off a 357 within a vehicle with the muzzle rested on the door window? – ever done it twice??

Jim – LEO’s are just regular type guys – today the majority reporting to the academies have never fired a handgun and few have ever fired a rifle or shotgun. 99% will never fire their duty weapon in anger and a lot of them don’t really care about marksmanship beyond a 30” target at 30 feet and their big bitch about qualification day is they have to clean their pistol. The vast majority of big city LEO’s never hunt or shoot for enjoyment – like most big city folks – no difference. Now there are some who take a real interest in shooting and marksmanship and they are as good as anyone out there and then there are a few standouts in some of the SWAT or rapid response units and they are damn good. Police departments have a lot of taxpayer bullets and some reponse teams or patrol units send a bunch every chance they get, so take good cover if you’re behind the BG, as a ton will be comin’ your way in short order.

[Larry in MT]

I don't mind carrying a heavier handgun (the right belt helps a lot). When we horsepack into the Bob Marshall I carry a 5" 629 Classic. My handload is a 285 grain BearTooth hardcast bullet @ 1235 fps. This combo is very quick on the 2nd (and 3rd) shots and the accuracy and ease of operation make me very confident in it.

In NE Oregon this Fall, where we've had problems with Black Bear but Griz are absent, I'll be packing a 44 Special. My handload in that one is a 255 grain hardcast Beartooth bullet @ 1060 fps. NE Oregon BlackBear are mostly smaller than what you seem to produce in the NE USA.

[44man]

Long ago I had an old 41 Ford with mechanical brakes. We were going chuck hunting and had our varmint rifles and I had my .44 flat top too.
Some woman jammed her brakes on and I could not stop so I had to go around her over the yellow lines. Scared hell out of me.
I was pulled over by the Ohio state patrol. He seen the .44 and was scared of it. I said it is OK, it is not loaded and I hunt with it. He was a nice guy and let us go after I explained about the silly brakes and the dumb woman. But I still remember his big eyes when he was holding the .44!
Today you get smashed to the ground, pepper sprayed and tossed in the lockup. You lose your gun.
Small town cops were another story. Go 1 mph over and you got a ticket. They had no duty except to make money. If they ever needed a gun, the BG could defeat him with rocks!
Beware entering VA, it is a police state! Or should I say common wealth? No problem seeing 5 departments with radar in a mile. I had an illegal detector going to work and it never shut off. I never drove fast there so I put the thing in the basement. There must be 2 policeman for every resident. Even back country roads will have radar traps. I was stopped three times a month at road checks to see my license and safety sticker.
You will see a large sign entering VA that says radar detectors are illegal. They used a trick with one radar unit and then another a little farther. Pass one and think it is OK so you speed up again to find you will be caught real quick. I was on to that junk.
You lose respect for LEO's when their primary function is to make money.
We have a spot at Harpers Ferry with a steep hill, state highway. It is 45 mph and you can't coast that slow so you need to ride your brakes all the way. Better stay at 45. The stretch of road supports the town.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
44 man , you were on GB O again, & got banned (partially again).
They are a bit touchy ,huh?
I agree your points are valid.
I was a LEO, when I went through the academy (1975) only 3 of us had ever shot a gun ( pretty sad).
I had to carry a 38, (ugh). Felt it was suicide,for law enforcement .
I later Qualified with my 44 mag.
NOT BRAGGING, I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.
I shot a 98% with it the first time.
But you see I like to shoot a bit.
Drawing a 7&1/2" Redhawk, firing 2 rounds in less than 2 seconds into a 3" circle , multiple times. Distances varied. 50 rounds. So 25 sets of draw & fire.
Not saying I could hit a bouncing ball.
Have to work on that one a bit.
Can not do a 1" at 100s. either. But still trying.
Prefer a rifle for a bear, but my 44 is with me even when I am squatting to take a poop. :Fire::Fire:

[waksupi]

44 man , you were on GB O again, & got banned (partially again).
:Fire::Fire:

Only once? I think I've been banned there four times! Catch up, slacker!

[Bret4207]

P

Any of you LE guys ever light off a 357 within a vehicle with the muzzle rested on the door window? – ever done it twice??

.

Yup and yup. No one ever said I was smart, or could hear good.

[44man]

Only once? I think I've been banned there four times! Catch up, slacker!
Yeah, funny place. I was VEEEERRRRY careful too and did not post but a few things, one was praise for GB too.
I was told I do not fit in! [smilie=f:
I was later told by a member with E mail that it was a picture I posted. Answered a question about lead too soft for the pressure and showed the badly slumped boolit. Not my picture either but out of a gun rag.
They are too touchy for me! :holysheep

[44man]

HI,
44 man , you were on GB O again, & got banned (partially again).
They are a bit touchy ,huh?
I agree your points are valid.
I was a LEO, when I went through the academy (1975) only 3 of us had ever shot a gun ( pretty sad).
I had to carry a 38, (ugh). Felt it was suicide,for law enforcement .
I later Qualified with my 44 mag.
NOT BRAGGING, I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.
I shot a 98% with it the first time.
But you see I like to shoot a bit.
Drawing a 7&1/2" Redhawk, firing 2 rounds in less than 2 seconds into a 3" circle , multiple times. Distances varied. 50 rounds. So 25 sets of draw & fire.
Not saying I could hit a bouncing ball.
Have to work on that one a bit.
Can not do a 1" at 100s. either. But still trying.
Prefer a rifle for a bear, but my 44 is with me even when I am squatting to take a poop. :Fire::Fire:
Hi Boom boom, good to hear from you.
Yes, I dearly love the .44 too. It is getting harder for me to get those small groups, went to the Ultra Dot and even it is getting hard to see. Thank God, deer are large enough! [smilie=l:
But I could not draw a gun of any kind in less then 2 minutes! :holysheep My fast shooting went somewhere 40 years ago. I never want to be near a big bear either without the gun in my hand. I might still get ate.
We do continue to test on my range and some of the stuff guys think works is so sad I would never even shoot them at a deer.
The 405 gr boolit for the .44 is one, touted as a super killer. It turns sideways on the targets. Lacks penetration and turns to exit at funny angles. The 700 gr in the .500 S&W is also a strange animal.
S&W guns fail once boolits get too heavy. Guns with boolits at the very end of the cylinders fail. Even factory cast loads have failed.
It gives me a perspective on what to use, stay away from the weird stuff and use normal, proven loads. Don't carry a gun made from magic metal because those heavy boolit rounds will not stay in the brass because of the recoil. Don't worry about recovery for a second shot because the gun will fail first. Shoot the light gun with the right loads.
My opinion is what got me in trouble! Then I got a flood of E mail asking for more information and if I would post more. I said no, just mail me. I have not been booted from AR but I think some of my posts were deleted. Common sense answers to maybe save a life.

[tek4260]

Good thing I don't have any bears to shoot! Because I have them too light

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0824.jpg

That pulls boolits

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0817.jpg

And I load the 480 Vaquero too long

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0616.jpg

And the 44

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/101_2810.jpg

And the 45

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0747.jpg

, but shorter OAL's cut into my powder space :)

Even tried some of them 700gr 50's

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/101_0265.jpg


Yep, I'd be bear poop for sure [smilie=l:

[starmac]

Ok I am going to show my ignorance here, but what is the advantage of loading long enough or loading a bullet that won't stay in the brass, to where it has the potential to lock up the cyl, is it just trying to squeeze a little more umph out of a heavy bullet.

[tek4260]

Ok I am going to show my ignorance here, but what is the advantage of loading long enough or loading a bullet that won't stay in the brass, to where it has the potential to lock up the cyl, is it just trying to squeeze a little more umph out of a heavy bullet.


Because folks on the internet said it was better.... of course!

[subsonic]

The internet is never wrong. People on the other hand....

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
TEK 4260, those HP bullets look like Hollow base wad cutters I used to experiment with in the last 1960's.
Anything to make the stupid 38 special (SUICIDE SPECIAL) more effective, back when we had to carry it.

That 98% was shot on the old Law enforcement Practical police combat course. ranges from 7' (I think) to 50yds., I dropped 2 points as 2 rounds were just out of the X ring.
right & left hand shooting, right & left barricades.
If you will shot a bit:Fire::Fire: most folks could do it.:Fire::Fire:

[pmer]

One thing I never hear about on these bear food threads are the use of dogs. I don't really live in bear country so I don't know and am just asking the question. There is a little bear hunting north of me and seen a bear once on the farm in 46 years. It was a 1/2 mile away and I thought it was a big dog till I got the binocs out.

I'm not talking a upland game dog that is working out in front of you. But something kinda big that's bred for protection and trained to stay close.

Like that lucky guy with the short barreled DA on the bottom of page 3 of this thread. I would guess he walked by that bear while it was waiting for the right time to charge. A good dog could have alerted him to danger in the area giving a chance for avoidence.

I had a dog that was great for that on night time walks.

[44man]

Ok I am going to show my ignorance here, but what is the advantage of loading long enough or loading a bullet that won't stay in the brass, to where it has the potential to lock up the cyl, is it just trying to squeeze a little more umph out of a heavy bullet.
Pull is something to consider. A friend brought out a .454 and some cast factory loads. I looked at them and asked why the super strong full profile crimp? It only took two shots to lock up the SRH.
Another friend has a Freedom .454 that I loaded some of the same boolits that were in the factory loads. I used a mild roll crimp and never had a boolit pull even when I was testing primers and took the loads to 55,000 psi.
Now why didn't my loads fail even in the lighter Freedom?
Yeah, I sat at the bench and stared at both loads with no explanation, only that I would take my loads any day.
So you see that you sometimes can't trust what you buy and they should be tested good before you go to bear country.
I screwed up making my .44 mold and it came out too heavy at 330 gr. I can keep one in the cylinder and run a dozen other shots without boolit pull. Just a roll crimp! My .44 has a 10" barrel and an Ultra Dot so it is heavy. You sure do not want to feed these to a S&W!

[bowfishn]

We have Blackies here and some that go 600 lbs although they would be rare, most taken are between 150# and 300#. They seem to be more scared of 2 legged creatures then we are of them, but it only takes one that attacks you to spoil your whole day. I also realize that if a Bear attacks the only way to stop it dead in its tracks is with a shot to its central nervous system, other than that it will take time, even if only a few seconds for it to expire with a well placed shot through the Heart or other vital. That will leave a period of time the animal could do you in or cause serious injury. That is still better odds than a Bear having all its steam tearing at you for as long as it takes to do you in. Just being realistic, as no handgun or rifle short of a bazooka has the killing power to cause instant death or stopping power shy of a central nervous system hit. Yes some times an animal will drop from a shot through the vitals but that is not a certainty, as the animal still has to die from lack of blood pressure.
My loading for my 44 mag SRH has proven very reliable, always goes off, never pulls a bullet and locks up. It shoots a cast 300 grain gas checked bullet at 1500 fps and I would trust it to kill almost any animal I would come up against with a well placed shot, just what may happen to me after the shot is up in the air if the animal is close enough to get physical while it expires.
I had a 454 SRH that did have bullets pull and lock up while working up loads. My most accurate load from that gun was with a 308 gr cast gas checked bullet using 32.5 grs of h-110 small rifle mag primers and starline brass. That load was reliable, but increasing powder up a few grains over that would always lock up the cylinder within 6 or less shots, also it was less accurate. The shells at the higher loading still ejected with ease and no flattened primers.