Which of THESE Shotguns?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

thoughts?

[odfairfaxsub]

honestly just me get a 870 tact like the 1st one. you can't go wrong with remington quality, keltec quality is real bad (ask me about my p90 i sent back 3 times), pumps are ultra reliable i can pump mine almost as fast as my shot control with a auto. the siaga does not function the birdshots 100 percent of the time, the 877 if you pull the pump back when you pull the trigger the gun will not strike the primer. i have bought alot of shotguns and talked to alot of shotgun owners and seen a good bit about it. if you don't mind me telling you one personal opinion on what to buy buy a benelli m-2 with either standard sight or combat sight. i pefer the combat sight myself. they eat anything even my 6 pellet 000 buck loads ontop of 23 gr unique which is about as gentle as a tree fart.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello 123 DieselBenz, I like the #3 from Remington!
Triball loads from Dixie and OO and OOO buck shots and if you ever feel you need to shoot
sabots then simply buy this rifled barrel extension a 8 inch long just like the old Paradox guns of yesterday!
http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/store.php?crn=209&rn=641&action=show_detail
Time for fun, be sure to post some pictures here.
Ajay
Video Memories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[35remington]

The ported chokes are a liability with Federal's Flite Control wad, as they strip it from the shot and patterns open up.

Just thought you might want to know before shooting the most tightly patterning (and fairly pricey) buckshot on the market. It will easily outrange a choked barrel with conventional buckshot.

Replace the ported chokes with a nonported, straight cylinder choke, as ported chokes and tight chokes actually open up the pattern with Flitecontrol.

I am a fan of non gimmicky shotguns. I cannot see where the 887 "armor" will do anything but add weight and bulk, and unless you are in the habit of bouncing the gun like a basketball off of concrete all the time I would pass.

With the 870 series, perhaps you would be better advised to go with the more expensive Police type models that have fewer MIM parts instead of going for all the spraypaint and plastic on the Express variants.

Cannot comment on the Saiga. Never had one. A bit bulkier looking, but "tactical" is where it's at. Trouble is, an instinctive swing and point is needed for buckshot shooting on moving targets, and I can't see these being able to deal with, say, targets on a skeet range.

Now, some might say they aren't planning to skeet shoot, but in an arm that is often pointed rather than aimed, handling counts for something, and a conventional pump is better for hitting fast targets due to superior balance.

And in combat, the combat shotgun with buckshot is, in fact, pointed rather than aimed when your opponent is moving, as they often are. FWIW. But then having lots of spare capacity and quick reloading might help if poor balance makes it harder to hit a moving target. I'd rather hit sooner with a less bulky shotgun.

[UNIQUEDOT]

My vote is for any version of the 870 that appeals to you. My personal defense shotgun is an old wingmaster with a 21" barrel. The 870 will digest any ammo within of course a certain range of length without fail. I have had people tell me that they would rather have an semi auto because they need only to put the bead on target and pull the trigger without the fear of either short stroking the gun or even forgetting to manipulate the action, but i would rather have a gun that will digest anything. If one is practiced with a slide action gun the action is always manipulated without thought... it's "automatic" and without fail.

[dogbert41]

Since you are talking crazy talk, I'd go for the Saiga and get me one of them bumbfire stocks for the AK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_W1pLT7xSA

[tommygirlMT]

For a "working gun" --- Either the Saga-12 or your choice of the Remington pump guns will work just fine --- dont underestimate the Saga-12 although not technically as reliable as a pump gun it is probably one of the best semi auto shotguns ever in terms of reliability --- same action as an AK-47 and just as reliable in the field --- far better then most semi auto shotguns to the point where it holds its own against pump guns in the field in terms of reliability

The Kel-Tec --- is a "toy gun" --- not a serious "working gun" so only buy it as a toy not as a work horse

I really wish they would import the Soviet special police edition of the Saga-12 to the United States --- it is a hybrid auto/pump just like the jungle gun such that the fore-arm is linked to the bolt through an overrunning slide assembly so that it can be pumped manually just like a regular pump gun if it should happen to jamb or when using ultra light loads that wont work the auto gas system --- now the S-12 runs almost all ammo without trouble and you really have to work at it and try to make it jamb to make it jamb --- but still the jungle gun type hybrid system where you can pump it manually if needed or so desired is the ultimate system that is better then any semi auto or pump shotgun giving the best of both worlds and they do make them that way specifically for the law enforcement community in Europe --- but they dont import that model to the US

[tommygirlMT]

Oh yah --- you asked about who had owned/shot the guns in question

Own a Rem 870 (not sure exact model)

Own a S-12 lightly moded to be very AK-47 like with all the AK wood furniture

Have handled and fired the Kel-Tec weird pup gun

Have handled and fired the S-12 police model --- couple years ago in Siberia --- our native hunting guide used one as his guide gun and was very proud of it --- The guns supplied to us as the hunters (cant bring your own if you want to hunt Siberia) were standard S-12 and S-410 models and a couple modern hunting type high powered rifle cartridge bolt guns that were specially licensed by the soviet-gov to the company he worked for --- apparently the gov up their has no problem with private people owning just about any shotgun with smooth bore barrel that they want but anything with rifling in the barrel is a big headache and a bunch of special permits and paper work plus money under the table to the gov guy behind the desk

[jmsj]

I have an 870 similar to #1 but is a turkey shotgun and not a tactical shotgun and it is great for turkey and target shooting with slugs but not so great at wingshooting.
I also have an 870 similar to #2 w/ a 23" barrel and it is my everything shotgun.
I have not shot the Saiga so I can't comment on that one but we keep an 11-87 w/ a 18 1/2" barrel with one of Wiljen's flashlights mounted to it at the backdoor. In fact there is a 12 gauge near every door in our house and in my bedroom. I know some of the experts don't reccomend the 11-87 w/ 18 1/2" barrels for home defense because of reliability issues. This 11-87 was my primary bird gun for nearly 20 years w/ a 26" barrel and is well broke in and utterly reliable.
I once heard that the most important thing about a shotgun is "BOOM, BOOM, BOOM". So I would reccomend for home defense one that you KNOW will fire and feed every time. One of the 870's would get my vote. Just my .02 cents
Good luck, jmsj

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Turn . . .

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

870's require both hands to recharge.
Autoloaders just need one.
I have a "Zombie-ized) 1187 Special Purpose 3" mag, 8shot extension and rifle sights.
I am going to add a Saiga 12 gauge to my vault in June, after I get back from Africa.

My local guy has a couple of the SAIGA 12 gauges. We went out and shot one. You cannot imagine the fun of dumping that 20 round magazine, alternating slugs and buckshot on steep poppers...

[UNIQUEDOT]

Somebody on another forum suggested a used Wingmaster, and chop the barrel and get a mag extension . . . hmmm . . .


That's good advice. One thing an experienced shotgunner does not want is the clumsiness of a magazine or drum sticking out the bottom of the gun when he/she is swinging on a target. If one were to attempt to swing a clumsy gun on an experienced gunner it probably wouldn't end too well for the person holding the clumsy gun.

Any time a shotgun is called upon it's because it fits a close range need and while a rifle like shotgun might look cool it would be impractical as a defense weapon although an excellent ambush weapon it may be.

[35remington]

Idaho, I can reload the 870 while it is still on my shoulder and pointed at any threat.

One handed.

One hand keeps the gun on target. The free hand accesses the rounds in the butt cuff.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Idaho, I can reload the 870 while it is still on my shoulder and pointed at any threat.

One handed.

One hand keeps the gun on target. The free hand accesses the rounds in the butt cuff.

Yeah me too, i didn't understand what he meant by "two hands". I've hunted with pump guns for so long that after the shot is away i have pumped the gun returned the safety and reloaded before the gun has reached the rest position without realizing any of it. It actually takes longer to reload an autoloader that is completely empty since you have to fumble for the release button. An autoloader with magazines are another story though, but if you don't have spare mags for it, it takes longer to load them than it does to simply slip rounds in a tube. When a jamb occurs with an autoloader you are probably getting shot while you're fumbling with both hands and having to lok at the gun rather than the threat to clear it.

[plumberroy]

Since you are talking crazy talk, I'd go for the Saiga and get me one of them bumbfire stocks for the AK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_W1pLT7xSA

We have done banned those at our gun club the average person is over the backstop by the 3rd or 4th shot

[tommygirlMT]

For the S-12 the big drum mags are indeed a little unweildy --- I have two of them mainly just for kicks that I keep loaded with cheap walmart bird shot loads just for kicks to tear up the range --- for real work I have a whole bundle of the U.S. made plastic 10 round stick mags loaded with OO buck and slugs --- those are my "main" mags for the gun --- Also have a couple two round "hunter" mags (they are really hard to find/get) that make the gun legal for bird hunting with if one so desire and they stick out not so much from bottom of gun compared to all the other mags --- plus I have the original mag that came with the gun that like holds four or five rounds

So far the only real blood it has drawn have been a couple deer with Brenneke slug loads and a few turkeys --- have the original external thread choke tubes --- no need for a fancy looking muzzle brake that dont do much but look cool --- use the thread protector ring for most everything normal that makes it just a straight cylinder bore --- and then have a tight choke tube for using it as a turkey gun --- which it does make a good turkey gun with 3" handloads of hevi-shot and takes out a lot of the recoil and is compact and is easy to put a bead on a turkey and blow his head off when he is making a run for it when you pop out from behind the ground blind with the military iron GI type sight I put on it that are are basically a copy of what they equipped some of the sharpshooter Korea era M1-grands with

Have no doubt though that if the time came it would make a real bad day for a bad guy (or gal) stupid enough to do something bad enough to put them on the muzzle end of it with me on the butt end

[garym1a2]

I have a REm 870 wingmaster and its a great shotgun. The mossberg 500 and 590 are decent also. I like the new Mossberg 930 also.

[flounderman]

it's your money and you can throw any amount of it away for fancy gimicks. you can buy a mosberg 500 and a barrel or two for a lot less than everybodys talking and have a usable all purpose gun. unless the chinese army invades, you don't need extended magazines. you want a well balanced, natural pointing shotgun, something fast to swing and lite. a 20 ga will handle anything that needs handling and with a 20 inch barrel, it's enough gun without being too much gun. a normal stock is all that you need and just in case you want to hunt with it, you can. when you get in pressure situations, simpler is better. and, everybody knows the sound of a pump shotgun being racked. the amount of intimidation, is equal to the square of the bore you are looking down. you can find an 870 or a 500 in about any pawn shop you walk in to. rather than keep them until the fall season, they will negotiate this time of year. a short barrel, with choke tubes will cover any situation

[legend]

the 870 will not fail you,i have owned several.

[Finster101]

Has anyone layed hands on a Kel-tec yet? I can not find one anywhere in my area. Yeah, I know they are toyish looking. The main reason I'm interested in one is that it will fit in a Harley tour pack and still be legal.

[para45lda]

I'm going to go with the Benelli also. Just a real slick gun.

What are winners shooting in 3-gun matches? Talk about reliability perfectionists!!

Of course I can't really say anything bad about the pump gun either: my go-to is a Winchester '97.

Wes

[W.R.Buchanan]

Shawn: good to see another refuge from the 4BT site.

Either a Mossberg 500 or the Remington 870. The Saigas are too expensive and pretty picky about ammo.

Then new FN /Winchester auto is another good one.

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well here I go again! I have an older 50's Browning Auto 5 that I am working on now as it had about 6 holes in the reciever where an idiot had drilled and tapped it for a telescopic sight! I filled and tigged those in and I'm going to bead blast and slow rust blue it. I bought an original Browning plastic stock set and I'm going to make a waterfowl/duck gun out of it. I was going to make a defense gun out of it but it is a Browning and I can find a Remington 11 for that. I want to add a Rem.870 extension like the pic here to the Rem.11 and I then will have probably the most RELIABLE defense auto EVER made!

[Mk42gunner]

Somebody on another forum suggested a used Wingmaster, and chop the barrel and get a mag extension . . . hmmm . . .
Another vote for a good used Wingmaster. I think the blued Wingmaster from before they started making the Express version is the best pumpgun around. I would not buy one with a J-lock if I was contemplating using it for defense.

Spare barrels used to be fairly cheap for 870's too, don't cut down one of the trapgun barrles.

Robert

[UNIQUEDOT]

Hi,
Well here I go again! I have an older 50's Browning Auto 5 that I am working on now as it had about 6 holes in the reciever where an idiot had drilled and tapped it for a telescopic sight! I filled and tigged those in and I'm going to bead blast and slow rust blue it. I bought an original Browning plastic stock set and I'm going to make a waterfowl/duck gun out of it. I was going to make a defense gun out of it but it is a Browning and I can find a Remington 11 for that. I want to add a Rem.870 extension like the pic here to the Rem.11 and I then will have probably the most RELIABLE defense auto EVER made!

Nice gun! one of my 870's is an 870 special with 23" fixed full choked vent ribbed barrel. It has the straight grip stock and when i bought it years ago off the used rack it had three spots on the left side of the receiver where it looks like some nimrod attempted to drill and tap it, but gave up before completing the project.

It aggravates me to the core when someone hacks up beautiful weapon such as your humpback or my special. BTW my 870 special won't take any other 870 barrels, but the gun serves a "special" purpose and is a turkey killing machine.

[seagiant]

Hi UD,
I have nothing against pump shotguns but something to consider is muscle memory.This means your brain and your body are going to do what it is used to doing especially under stress! I am used to over and unders or auto shotguns. When I get in a situation where I have to protect myself I want to use the system I'm used to.

The Browning auto 5 and clones do this for me and are known for being ultra reliable. I just think that a guy wanting a defense shotgun could do no better and the Rem.11 guns are plentiful at a good price! One thing I remember as a kid when older guys were going to Nam, I heard of guys buying the auto 5 and using it in the bush! Thats about as high a recommendation as a shotgun can get!

[UNIQUEDOT]

Hi UD,
I have nothing against pump shotguns but something to consider is muscle memory.This means your brain and your body are going to do what it is used to doing especially under stress! I am used to over and unders or auto shotguns. When I get in a situation where I have to protect myself I want to use the system I'm used to.


I used to use the auto 5 and i still love the design. A couple of decades ago i started buying and using over unders and of course side by sides well before that, but i ended up going back to pump guns and don't even own an OU today. It's just a personal preference, but one thing that some don't consider when using semi auto's is that the weather can dictate what loads you use or at least that was my experience in the field with them. Loads that worked well in fair weather wouldn't reliably cycle the action in freezing temperatures even with Winchesters 1400's. I don't know what has changed with semi's today, but i have been looking at some of the newer guns recently.

[bowfin]

New manufacture Remington 870s are on my "do not buy" list. We have had two in the family the last few years and both have suffered from broken ejector springs in less than 200 rounds.

Here's what we get to look forward to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdA1tFQpJRo

I don't know why the old 870s never had any problems with broken ejector springs or shells sticking in the chambers, but I think it has to do with manufacturing towards a price point rather than the customer.

[smkummer]

I have fired 2 saiga's and they are really fun! One was a factory 410 that we soon ordered a mec loader as it got expensive really fast. Very reliable but it thew the empties about 40 feet away! The other was a alliance armament enhanced 12 gauge with both stick and drum magazines. We had only one falure to feed in 4 or 5 boxes of both cheap promo shells and reloaded 1 oz. AA hulls. The kick is OK with 1 oz. loads. One can throw a empty 1 gal. milk jug straight up in the air and keep it airborn until the mag. is empty. For home defense, the 5 shot mag. would be best but I would agree that the tubular magazine of a pump or traditional semi would be better suited. Older used 870s with 2 3/4 chambers and finish issues are still around for 200 or less. Shooting a 3 1/2 12 gauge off hand would get old really fast.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I also have a Browning A5 from the 50's I bought specifically to chop. I has a Cutts Compensator on it right now and they didn't do a very good job of installing it, so it has to go.

I bought a Choat extended mag tube for the gun from a guy here but it didn't thread on very well. It will go on my 1965 A5 but not the older one. I guess mine will end up with a 5 rnd cap.

My gun won't hold the bolt open after the last round. I have the parts to fix it but this gun is not easy to dissassemble at all! I have had it apart 1/2 way about 15 times but going deeper is not that easy.

Maybe someday I will fix it. Low on the list right now as I have a Mossberg with a long mag for the house.

Alot of the Saigas I have seen on TV don't seem to run that reliabily. For the house I would want something that is as close to dead reliable as is possible. If my wife is going to use it, then my Stevens 311 double barreled 12 ga is the tool of choice, although I have to get around to disabling the Auto safety feature as she would never figure it out on her own.

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi Randy,
I understand what you say about the Browning A5! I wanted to learn the shotgun so bad that I bought the AGI gunsmithing DVD on it and once I saw someone taking it apart,it became pretty simple! I still have to finish fitting my factory stock to it and get it working correctly. My ejector is gone on the barrel and I'm missing some screws but hopefully that will be no big deal.

Supposedly the mag extension that you can make work is the Rem.870. I want to find an orphan Rem.11 for a combat build and will then sale the Maverick 88/Mossberg 500 combat that I have! John Browning said that his greatest achievment was the Auto 5! Interesting coming from a man that developed the 50 BMG,1911 pistol,that by the way is still used to base 90% of todays auto pistols off of! Not to mention the HP35,BAR,ect,ect,ect!