Why does my Kimber CDPll lead ?

[mulespurs]

I cast with a Lee 230 gr TL TC six hole mold. Wheel weights not sized not quenched , lubed with Lee Alox or Rooster Jacket.
Loaded on a Dillon 550 with 5 gr Red Dot and range brass.
Acurracy is less than desired.
Leading is irritating.
I don't want to size any more.
I want the leading to go away.
Do I work on my mold or my barrel?
Or get a different one?

Thank you for your support.
RB

[462]

Where, in the barrel, is the leading?
What is the barrel's groove dimension?
What are the boolits sized to?
Do you measure with a caliper or a micrometer?
What brand is the seating die and/or crimp die?
Do you seat and crimp in one step or two?
Have you loaded dummy rounds to verify that pulled boolits measure the same as they did before seating?

Just some of the critical information that is needed before accurate answers can be given.

[44man]

Water drop, age and pan lube with Felix. :bigsmyl2:

[Moonie]

I cast with a Lee 230 gr TL TC six hole mold. Wheel weights not sized not quenched , lubed with Lee Alox or Rooster Jacket.
Loaded on a Dillon 550 with 5 gr Red Dot and range brass.
Acurracy is less than desired.
Leading is irritating.
I don't want to size any more.
I want the leading to go away.
Do I work on my mold or my barrel?
Or get a different one?

Thank you for your support.
RB

Are you using a Lee FCD?

[Grandpas50AE]

I have 3 Kimbers that experience no leading at all...none. I size them all at .4515 and load mid-range loads, and use BAC lube from White Label lubes. Accuracy is superb at the ranges I've shot it at.

[ShooterAZ]

A little bit of leading in the first 1/4-1/2" of the barrel is pretty normal. Slugging your barrel would give some insight on your sizing issues. Also might want to try a different powder as well. I like Clays in .45 ACP target loads.

[captaint]

While I do use Red Dot in my 45's, I load more like .42 grs and a 200 gr boolit. You're getting a pretty hard launch with that charge & boolit. Might want to try reducing that 5.0 a little or going to Clays - It works well, also. enjoy Mike. PS Other than that, I would look to diameter for solutions.

[badgeredd]

Where, in the barrel, is the leading?
What is the barrel's groove dimension?
What are the boolits sized to?
Do you measure with a caliper or a micrometer?
What brand is the seating die and/or crimp die?
Do you seat and crimp in one step or two?
Have you loaded dummy rounds to verify that pulled boolits measure the same as they did before seating?

Just some of the critical information that is needed before accurate answers can be given.

YES...There it is!!!!!

Edd

[mulespurs]

I measured with a micrometer. The barrel slugged with soft lead measures .451. Bullets as cast from.449 to .453 depending on exactly where you measure. I have a set of Lee loading dies that I am using. One die seats and one to crimp. Feeding is not an issue.
The leading starts in the first inch of the barrel. My rifling where it stars after the chamber seems to start abruptly not gradually. Soft bullets lead 25-1 tin, lead badly and will not stay on a plate at 20 yds. Harder cast bullets are more accurate but still lead some.

[runfiverun]

this is nothing new.
read around, there has been three threads dealing with leading in the 45 acp in just the last week.
don't use the fcd.
449 is smaller that 451
lla sucks. yeah, i said it.

and james, stop that, it was funny though.

[fullofdays]

dont use the FCD or the CDP? :Fire::Fire:

[mpmarty]

Throw out all LEE pistol crimp dies. Worst piece of junk they ever made and they are famous for their junk.

[geargnasher]

Ya, 44Man always gives good advice regarding LLA: I'll pass on a little advice he gave me about three years ago when I posted almost exactly this same thread: "Liquid Alox works best under your fenders". I still get a kick out of that. :smile:

SO, you have boolits that are undersized in one dimension, lube that sucks unless things are perfect, a hot charge of fast powder, mushy alloy, a crimp die that's swaging your undersized boolits even farther down undersized, and probably a razor-sharp step in the throat between the end of the chamber and the origin of the grooves. (yes, orgin of GROOVES). Many autos have two steps before groove diameter, one from chamber to throat, where the case mouth supposedly headspaces, and then another sharp step up to groove diameter, then the land taper. The second step shaves the boolit to groove diameter rather than swage it, and the shavings get ironed onto the surface of the barrel like gold leaf. Reamers are available to fix this.

The real question here is what was going RIGHT? Boolits exited gun, gun stayed together. That's about it. Do scroll through the last couple of weeks of threads in this section and you'll find the threads Runfiverun mentioned, there are some good pics to show you what can happen with the abrupt throat. Also search "FCD" and you'll find out why we hate the pistol version so much. Rifle version is great, the pistol version not so much because the carbide post-sizing ring is made for J-bullets, not our larger, softer cast boolits.

Gear

[x101airborne]

Just sell me the weapon and all your troubles are over!!

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Some answers and suggestions in red below.


I measured with a micrometer. The barrel slugged with soft lead measures .451.
A pretty standard dimension, so you know a .452" to .453" slug should fit and seal the bore.

Bullets as cast from.449 to .453 depending on exactly where you measure.
This sounds like your bullets either aren't filling out the mold, the mold is defective or you're measuring in the wrong place. Try measuring just the base or "rear" of the bullet where it's going to have to seal to prevent gas cutting.

I have a set of Lee loading dies that I am using. One die seats and one to crimp. Feeding is not an issue.
Feeding should not be an issue. But I agree with the other gentlemen in that if you're using a Lee factory crimp die, the crimp die may be sizing your lead bullet down further in diameter. This is NOT desireable. Use your calipers to measure the carbide ring at the entrance to the factory crimp die. If it's dimensions are too small, you may want to do one of the following: 1. Grind enough off the carbide ring so it no longer sizes your bullets down. 2. Replace the die with another crimp die that does not size down your lead boolits. Of the two solutions, I prefer solution 1, but I have the tools to correct this issue.

The leading starts in the first inch of the barrel. My rifling where it stars after the chamber seems to start abruptly not gradually.
Pay a visit to your local gunsmith and have him correct the sharp throat for you. This is a simple procedure and won't take a long time to do. Be aware he may take a while to get to your pistol though, due to work load. Or you can ship your barrel to someone not so close who may have more employees to do work and may be faster. Call and get time estimates.

Soft bullets lead 25-1 tin, lead badly and will not stay on a plate at 20 yds. Harder cast bullets are more accurate but still lead some. In addition to the above items, I would suggest changing powders as well. You might want to try Winchester Super Target, Clays or Bullseye. The first two are very clean powders, the third, not so much, but very accurate in the .45ACP.

[Crash_Corrigan]

My go to loading for a .45 ACP

4.5 gr of Clays
200 Gr SEC lead boolit of straight ww's Water dropped
any large pistol primer
clean brass

Yeah I could cut down on the powder but I am trying to duplicate a factory loading for a carry round and they do recoil. So I practice with a more than comfortable recoiling reload to duplicate reality.

[MtGun44]

I'm not certain he has the Lee pistol Factory Crimp Die, it might just be the seater die.

In any case, LLA is potentially problematic.

Fit is the most important issue - you should be .001 over groove diameter to ensure that
any out of round in the boolit is accounted for. Next is a good design. For the .45 ACP
cartridge, a design like the ubiquitous H&G 68 (200 gr long nosed SWC) is the absolute
gold standard of feeding and accuracy balance. It uses a conventiona lube, not the tumble
lube. TL is convenient and low cost, but my standard comment is "Some swear by it and
many swear at it." Actually, it should have a reasonable chance to work in .45 ACP if all
else is correct.
Air cooled wwt alloy is entirely adequate for all .45 ACP loads, water dropping for hardness
is unnecessary.

So - what to do?

First - pull a boolit from a loaded round and measure it with a micrometer. It needs to be
delivered to the grooves at .452 or .453 range. If the brass or the crimp die is reducing the
diameter, or some are just cast too small (measured across the base) then this is the
problem. FIT is critical, and totally unforgiving if undersized. Oversized is just fine, as long
as the round will chamber.

Next - double coat your LLA, or switch to LLA and Johnson's paste wax mix which some
have had great success with.

If this doesn't work, the most certain route to success is to purchase a H&G 68 clone mold,
use pan lubing initially because it is very inexpensive to start with and us a known good lube
like NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue. There are many other lubes that are great, but let's try to
keep the number of variables low until you have a working load. IMO, the most certain
success will be with a convential lube boolit design, although many have had success with
the TL designs. It seems that TL is a good bit less forgiving, but quite attractive at the
beginning because of low entry cost for equipment.

A .452 to .453 H&G 68 lubed in a lubrisizer with NRA 50-50 is almost guarenteed to be
a reliable feeder (at LOA 1.255) and accurate and not lead. As you deviate away, there
are many other things that work some of the time, but also much 'quicksand' out there.

Use a light to moderate taper crimp with a separate die - NOT a Lee FCD by preference since
these frequently size the whole case down, and result in a properly sized boolit becoming
an undersized boolit. IMO, the Lee pistol type of FCD is an answer in search of a question.
TC should measure about .470" across the extreme edge of the case. Sometimes the brass
or TC can be reducing diameter of extremely soft boolits, but this won't happen with normal
wwt alloy.

Hope this helps.

Bill

[462]

For what it's worth, this works for me:
1. Lyman 45260 200-grain SWC, cast of air-cooled 2:1 wheel weights:lead, sized to .452" and lubed with a mixture of Jake's purple ceresin and 50/50.
2. Various published Bullseye loads.
3. Seated and crimped in two seperate operations using non-Lee dies and a dedicated taper crimp die.

The above works with Lyman's 452473 225-grain ball clone, too.

[fredj338]

My vote goes to the TL design & undersized bullets. Many complain about leading regardless of lube type w/ TL bullets. If you are shooting mixed sized bullets, the smaller ones are likely causing the leading @ 0.449". The LFCD also makes things worse. The leading early tells me the bullet is undersized, either by casting or the LFCD. I use a very soft 50/50 alloy of pure & clip ww or range scrap, no leading to 900fps even w/ fast burning RD. All bullets are sized to 0.452" & lubed w/ various lubes, but I like CR or BAC for commercial.

[fredj338]

My go to loading for a .45 ACP

4.5 gr of Clays
200 Gr SEC lead boolit of straight ww's Water dropped
any large pistol primer
clean brass

Yeah I could cut down on the powder but I am trying to duplicate a factory loading for a carry round and they do recoil. So I practice with a more than comfortable recoiling reload to duplicate reality.

FYI, that load is well over max & Clays is known to pressure spike @ max levels. From Hodgdon:
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.225" 3.6 759 11,800 CUP 4.3 888 17,000 CUP
Lyman also puts 4.4gr as max. Caution!!!! You want higher vel, switch to a more apporrpiate powder; WST, W231 or Unique.

[MtGun44]

Clays is a poor choice for .45 ACP, runs into pressure limits prior to reaching normal
velocities. I have 8 lb of it and use it for .38 Spl, never for .45 ACP. I have several
friends doing this same thing, and will not heed warning that they are well past safe
SAAMI pressures for the cartridge and are beating the gun to pieces.

Bill

[ShooterAZ]

Clays works VERY well for me using light boolits (155-200 gr) in the .45 ACP. I agree though pressure does and will spike quickly, especially with heavier boolits. I never use it for anything other than target velocity loads 750fps +/- with light boolits. I go to 231 or Unique or even AA5 for heavier boolits or to make major. One of my all time favorite loads is 4 grains of clays behind a 175 gr cast SWC. It shoots well in every .45 I ever tried it in. It is very clean burning as well.

[MtGun44]

Agreed with light boolits and low vel, the problem is many insist on making full power
loads with 200 and 230 gr boolits, which is not safe. And it IS very clean burning.

Bill

[fredj338]

Agreed with light boolits and low vel, the problem is many insist on making full power
loads with 200 and 230 gr boolits, which is not safe. And it IS very clean burning.

Bill

With Clays & other uberfast, but Clays in particular, like being a little pregnant, there is no such thing as a little over max.:shock: Pressures can & have gone vert. crossing that threshold. I don't even like Clay sin bunnyfart loads, which is realy what it is for.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive said it before. A little lead wash in a barrel hurts nothing as long as it doesnt build up to the point it effects accuracy. Ive got guns that have had the same light lead wash in them for 5 years now. Personaly i think 44man had the best answer. Run your cast bullets sized to 452 use a good lube like felix. lbt. javalina ect and cast them out of an alloy around 15-18 or water drop to get there. Ive shot vertualy tons of acp bullets with aa2, bullseye, titegroup. clays and a few others and have seen no differnce in leading between them.