WC846/.223, please enlighten an ignorant redneck.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I'm loading up some .223 loads for my AR15 using 55 grain FMJ's and WC846 powder.

I started at the minimum load listed for BLC2 per the advice on the surplus containers I received and went up half a grain at a time, loading ten cartridges.

Speer lists 25.5 and 27.5 as their min and max respectively. Lee lists 25 and 27, so I decided to go with Lee's more conservative range.

When I got to 27 grains, the powder was up in the cartridge case to the point I'll have a compressed load if I seat bullets in these.

Can anyone advise? I not familiar with this powder and don't want to push it.

Thank you,

Dave

[woody1]

I'm loading up some .223 loads for my AR15 using 55 grain FMJ's and WC846 powder.

I started at the minimum load listed for BLC2 per the advice on the surplus containers I received and went up half a grain at a time, loading ten cartridges.

Speer lists 25.5 and 27.5 as their min and max respectively. Lee lists 25 and 27, so I decided to go with Lee's more conservative range.

When I got to 27 grains, the powder was up in the cartridge case to the point I'll have a compressed load if I seat bullets in these.

Can anyone advise? I not familiar with this powder and don't want to push it.

Thank you,

Dave

Dave, are you chronographing these loads? IMO we prob'ly shouldn't mess with surplus powder w/o a chronograph unless using established loads from the same lot of powder. Check out castpics http://www.castpics.net/RandD/load_data/223/223_rem.htm
for some 223 data using 846 from Buckshot. Looks to me you're at the limit. Regards, Woody

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Woody,

I've not attempted or thought about shooting anything yet. Thanks for the link. That's what I was thinking and why I posted seekng information, because the information I had wasn't quite jiving with what I was finding with the reloads.

My plan now is to back off the max to 26 grains and start working up from 22 grains instead of 25. I'm looking for accuracy, not "full power" and was suprised when the case got full at 27 grains. I'm hoping to find something at the lower, rather than higher end in order to conserve powder.

Regards,

Dave

[Nickle]

22 sounds like a decent starting point.

Watch your primers closely for flattening out, that's a decent judge of pressure in a high pressure gun, which the AR is.

[Buckshot]

............That data was worked up in a Savage M112 with LC83 military brass. A rather moot point now that WC852 is no longer available, but the bottom line on that data is WC852 (slow) with the Sierra 63gr semi pointed soft point. Accuracy remained superb and I went up in 1.0gr increments until I had the case stuffed :-)

Each grain of powder raised the POI about 1/2" above POA of the previous load, very consistantly. I was using a 2x2 paster with a 1/2" white dot in the center and the groups just marched straight up the paper. Velocity increases were linear and never varied to a full case. What a lovely powder that stuff was!

................Buckshot

[mechanic]

I'm loading up some .223 loads for my AR15 using 55 grain FMJ's and WC846 powder.

When I got to 27 grains, the powder was up in the cartridge case to the point I'll have a compressed load if I seat bullets in these.

Can anyone advise? I not familiar with this powder and don't want to push it.

Thank you,

Dave

i use wc-846 with 50, 55, and 60 gr' Hornady spire points in Rem' brass usually with either Rem' 7 1/2BR primers or Win' WSR's. i load 27.1 gr's max' with the 55 gr' bullets. they are FAST, i believe. i load approx' 26.7 with the 60 gr' pills, and 27.6 with the 50's. i would start at a min' of 25.5 gr's just like Speer said.

i would not use a chronograph to determine pressures. that's a fools errand.....particularlly as the throat in a rifle gets rough and causes the bullet to slow down even as pressures can rise with jacketed bullets especially. it just isn't safe to keep adding powder with a throat getting rougher and rougher trying to maintain the original or 'book' velocities. no insult intended; but a chrono' s best use is to determine that extreme spread and standard deviation of our velocity is acceptable and is improving as we experiment with a load.

take care,

mechanic

[45 2.1]

I got the following in an e-mail and will post here for your perusal.

In that thread for using 846 surplus powder for the 223 (especially for use in an AR15)..yes that powder was used in both the 5.56 and the 308, but 844 surplus (which is still available) was used mostly in the 5.56. Now it was Nickle I believe that said watch your primers because the AR15 is a high pressure platform. Wrong on both accounts. One..the AR doesn't run as high pressure as a bolt action rifle in the same caliber. Number two and more important, Most all AR15's in 5.56/223 (and there is a major difference) are ported too large on purpose to insure functioning the rifle using all different types of ammunitions, in all weather conditions, and with a dirty rifle. What that means is that the primes will always be extremely flat to the degree you think all the loads are overloaded. That's why David Tubbs, the big competition shooter, makes carrier weights for the AR15 carrier in 5.56/223 caliber. I made my own and it made a dramatic difference on the primiers. All normal loads have rounded primers now. Now as to the difference between an AR15 with the barrel stamped 223 and one stamped 5.56 Nato. 5.56 Nato is what the military is using. It has a Nato chamber, which basically is a little sloppier then a 223 chamber, but definitely has a longer throat. That's the important part. If you have ammo that is made to Nato 5.56 specs and fire it in a 223 chambered barrel in an AR15, you stand a good chance of blowing it up. You can fire 223 in the 5.56 Nato chamber without a worry. A match 223 chamber in an AR15 is almost a guaranteed disaster firing nato spec ammo.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

mechanic and 45 2.1,

Thank you for the additional information. Before I had a chance to create loads down to 22 grains, I had an opportunity to test the loads I'd already made. I opted to test from the 25 grain load to the 26 grain load. Examination of the primers shows no crating or "squaring up" of the rounded primer's edge with all loads, so far, so good. I'm not sure if best accuracy is achieved. It's been so long since I used anything but a paper plate for a target at 100 yards (milsurp toys), I can't remember the size of the bull one uses at 50 yards for zeroing or testing purposes. I made no attempt to zero the weapon at that range, but merely looked for group.

I should mention the rifle is a Stag Arms M4 type rifle with a flat top, 16" Shaw-manufactured 5.56 chambered barrel, a ARMS #40A2 rear back up iron sight and F-marked front sight. Chamber is on the tighter end of the 5.56 specifications, will chamber ammo resized on a standard RCBS x-die, but will not chamber ammo resized on a Lee FL die. (I suspect this has more to do with manufacturing tolerances than a problem with any of the dies.) The rifle will rechamber one of it's spent casing and has been headspaced. (A habit of mine, since I do part time gunsmithing and have access to the chamber gauges.)

Accuracy seemed reasonable with all loads, but my 47 year old dry eye problem vision is a great limiting factor with iron sights. I'm going to have to get a scope mounted to really wring out the accuracy potential of the weapon and find a good load. I'm also going to have to get or build one of those eye gadjets for helping your eye to focus on the front sight, get some "shooting glasses" with setup to focus the front sight. I'm also trying to find out the eye drop product the NRA mentioned in an article on older eyes, but my son caried the magazine off and I haven't been able to locate it. Otherwise, I can pretty much forget shooting with iron sights, something I much prefer not to do.

Regards,

Dave

[garandsrus]

Dave,

I shoot an AR and several mil surps with iron sights with eyes that are just a couple years younger than yours. I use different glasses for the AR and everything else though. A good on-line sight for lenses is http://www.39dollarglasses.com/. I have even ordered two lenses for one eye (my shooting eye) instead of a left and right lens. It's hard to beat their price on a polycarbonate lens!

With the AR and it's .040 peep sight, I use glasses that are meant to focus at about arms length. When looking at the targets without looking through the peep, they are pretty blurry! When I look through the peep, the targets clear up pretty well and of course the front sight is in focus.

When I shoot a Garand or any other iron sights, I use my standard distance prescription. The sight is far enough down the barrel that it and the target are in pretty good focus.

Assuming you have a hooded apperature on the AR, one thing you probably want to do is get a small piece of black vacuum or fuel line hose that can fit into the hood on the sight. This is just a "push in" fit, no glue or anything. The hose sticks out a little farther than the hood so that when the sight hits your glasses, it will be the rubber and not the metal touching them and will prevent the glasses from getting scratched.

John

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

John,

"I shoot an AR and several mil surps with iron sights with eyes that are just a couple years younger than yours. I use different glasses for the AR and everything else though. A good on-line sight for lenses is http://www.39dollarglasses.com/. I have even ordered two lenses for one eye (my shooting eye) instead of a left and right lens. It's hard to beat their price on a polycarbonate lens!"

Thanks for this link. I'll definately be working on buying a pair or I've got an older pair I could just order a lens for the right eye for and use those for shooting purposes.

"With the AR and it's .040 peep sight, I use glasses that are meant to focus at about arms length. When looking at the targets without looking through the peep, they are pretty blurry! When I look through the peep, the targets clear up pretty well and of course the front sight is in focus."

I'm thinking of using a lens such as you describe for the right eye and use the left eye with a normal lens so I can navigate around the range without killing myself. My mind is pretty good at handling lens changes. Do you think it's a good idea?

"When I shoot a Garand or any other iron sights, I use my standard distance prescription. The sight is far enough down the barrel that it and the target are in pretty good focus."

It's been a while since I've shot my Garand. I'm going to have to check it out. The M4 is darn close to the old eyes, dag nab it. Maybe I shoulda gotten an AR15A2 instead. Though that is my next planned purchase.

"Assuming you have a hooded apperature on the AR, one thing you probably want to do is get a small piece of black vacuum or fuel line hose that can fit into the hood on the sight. This is just a "push in" fit, no glue or anything. The hose sticks out a little farther than the hood so that when the sight hits your glasses, it will be the rubber and not the metal touching them and will prevent the glasses from getting scratched."

The rear apperture on this rifle is very similar to an A2 in that it has a short range aperature and flips to a longer range aperature. There's no elevation adjustment, just a horizontal one. The sight flips up into position when a hook is released. I don't think the hood is big enough to hold a section of hose, though I may be wrong. My son has a AR15A2 with National Match sights, but I can't even see through the hole in that one any more. My eyes have changed a good bit in the last year or two and dry eye issues is hurting me a good deal.


I greatly appreciate the information on the glasses and that link. I really needed a money saving place to get some range glasses.

Regards,

Dave

[PatMarlin]

Great thread, great info. I need to work up some P-dog loads for my AR-15 out to 300yds. Have it scoped though. I've pretty much bought scope for everything cause I got the 47 year old eyes too.. :mrgreen: , but have some iron sighters.

[shae marks]

I'm looking to load up some .223 with 55 grain FMJ's. The WC 846 jugs I have say to use BLC2 data. My Speer manual calls for magnum primers with BLC2. Has anyone found it necessary to use magnum primers with the WC846? I didn't find another listing calling for magnum primers except Speer.
can't tell ya about 846 or BLC2. I've been using 2230-C (load like AA2460 which is right next to H335) in .223 with 55 gr Midway Dogtown bullets and they do just fine. Primers are small rifle. I've seen listings for H335 for mag primers. I say, if you can make a load work with standard primers, better. .................I've used lots of WC846 in 223 out of my M112 Savage with std Win SR primers. No magnums. Ditto, partial to full caseloads in the 35 Rem under 200gr Saeco's. No magnum primers. I don't see how mag primers could have tightened up the groups I got.

Long ago I'd heard it said that if you go to a ball powder use magnum primers. I don't know if that was because the ball propellants had more deterrant used or if it was because they loaded denser? If you check castpics load data for surplus, any marked as "Buckshot' were all loaded with Win Std primers, either rifle or pistol. I think the only magnum primers I used was with WC820 in the 357 magnum. And that was only as I was doing direct load for load comparisons with H110 and W296 and they used mag primers.

[vernm]

Dave,

My lot of WC846 is 406289. I shot test loads at 25.5, 26.0, 26.3 and 26.6gr. My AR varmint, 24" barrel from WOA, Wylde chamber liked 25.5gr best. My Ruger bolt gun in .223Rem liked 26.3gr best. All loads used 55gr V-Max and WSR non magnum primers.

If you have that same lot of WC846, you could safely start at 25gr. I think you will find the best accuracy there or a little higher.

How's that 03 Springfield shootin' ?

vernm

[trickyasafox]

I use 846T in my 223 AR-15 loads- my lot burned a bit faster than BL-C(2) and was recommended at BL-C(2) - 10%.

[megaman10]

I use 24.5 gr behind a 62 gn FMJBT

[PatMarlin]

07, 09, 10. Darn shure would like to travel back and get those 3 years back ...:mrgreen:

Well on second thought- no. Don't want to go through all that work again.

I sold my upper and kinda like my Mini-14 more. I'm not that big a fan on Black rifles. Maybe if I had a real nice one.

[StarMetal]

According to a burn rate chart I have that includes the military powders, 846 is one step slower then BLC2 and 844 is one step faster. I know the data given for 844 is H335 data. 844, H335, and W748 are all very similar. Another thing I researched is that 844 is more suited to the 5.56 then the 846. That's not saying 846 won't work by no means.

[JIMinPHX]

I haven't used any 846, but I ran into compressed powder trouble when loading RE-15 in the .223. I just could not fit a max charge in the case no matter what drop tube I used or how hard I crammed the bullet down on top of it. That was with LC or Winchester brass.

There are other types of .223 brass that have considerably smaller case capacity. PMP & RORG headstamp brass had capacities that were so small that I had to use more than a full grain less powder in them to be able to fit the same bullet on top.

The compressed charges of RE-15 burned dirty & were a little sluggish at the muzzle, but they gave me my best accuracy ever in that single shot gun. 3/8" @ 100 yds.

[Shiloh]

25.3 grains gives about 2960 FPS in an AR.

Shiloh

[wiljen]

I like 844 a tad better than 846 in the smaller cartridges velocity wise (.222, .223) but 846 has been extremely consistent shot to shot at slightly less velocity.

[Blazin]

Good info on 844 and 846: http://www.223reloads.com/home/223-5-56-info/223-5-56-reloading/wc-846-loads

[Jason.223]

few other calibers with WC846

30-06 150 sp. 48.5 win. win LR. 2654 fps. slow light load
45-70 405 sp. 62 win. win LRM. 1882 fps
45-70 350 sp 65 win. win LRM. 1935 fps
303 brit. 147fmj. 46 win. win LRM. 2550 fps
243 70 sp. 41 rem. win LRM. 3497 fps....TO HOT IN MY RIFLE


this is from that web site....but That is my data that I have posted in other forums over the years...how funny

Jason

[MtGun44]

I have to strongly diagree with "chronograph is a fools errand".

This is dangerous information. Using a chrono to compare your velocities obtained with
known loads or factory ammo and your loads with similar bullets is extremely useful to
ensure that you are not exceeding normal velocity limits with similar powders and
bullet weights.

There is no free lunch, if you see that the listed max load for a canister grade powder
with similar burning speed to your surplus gives you 3100 fps, and you are getting 3300
fps with your surplus powder and the same cases and bullets, you can bet you have
higher than max pressures even with no pressure signs. Velocity does not come for
free magically.

Bill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

this is a great old thread.
I recently purchased some WC846
8 lbs for $94
hi-techammo.com

[Shiloh]

25.3 grains of WC846 gives 2970 fps from Federal brass, out of a DPMS 20" barrel, with Hornady 52 gr. BTHP bullets.

Shiloh

[Shiloh]

this is a great old thread.
I recently purchased some WC846
8 lbs for $94
hi-techammo.com

It's where I got mine. Down to the end of mine.

Ripsaw

[swheeler]

JonB; just remember lot to lot variation can be quite large. All the lots of WC846 that I have used were faster than cannister BLC-2, even if marginally. It is a very good powder for many cartridges and was a deal at 64.00/8#

Anywhere from 25-27 grs should be fine with 55 gr bullet, as always start low and work up. Heres some 10 shot strings from 3-9-03, 20*F

55 gr WWfmj,LC brass, wsr primer

27.5 gr blc-2 2972 fps
27.5 gr wc846 3168 fps lot ra-l-85059
26.0 gr wc844 3044 fps, 27.0 gr 3155 fps lot tali 01-42

9-8-2004, 54*F 52 gr Horn bthp match, ww brass, wsr primer
26.5 gr wc846, 3275 fps lot 50/50 blended

9-8-04 , 40 gr speer, ww brass, wsr primer
27.5 gr wc846, 3411 fps

6-20-06 64*F, ww brass, cci 400 primer
70 gr speer, 24.5 wc846, 2707 fps

[MK111]

I have been using WC846 for over 20 yrs. Always used load data on BLC2. Shoots less than 1 MOA in my custom AR's. It shoots even better in my custom AR15 223AE. In the 223AE I got a 300 FPS increase. That is mid-range 22-250 speed and in a 13 lb. auto rifle with basicly no recoil there is no followup lag on 2nd shoots on PD's.
The same load in my Rem 700 shot around 1/2-3/4 MOA.
When I bought my last batch of WC846 I keep 100 lbs and the military sealable keg it came in. In those days I probaly brokered 400 lbs for our gunclub members. No one had a problem with it.
Now the magnum (H110- W296) pistol powder was another problem as some cheap SOB's were told a 100% load was required ( as with W296) and they went cheap and tried reduced loads on the $1.50 powder to save money. They had stuck bullets in the barrel. Luckly those guys went together on a batchs and I wouldn't return any money as I didn't sell it to them directly.
The pistol powder worked great in the 357 Mag and 30 carbine. The 30 carbine would shoot the RCBS 30 SIL 165 gr. bullet at 1500 FPS in my TC Contender at less than 1 MOA. This was off the bench with a 8 power Weaver rifle scope I used for 100 yrds.
Frank

[Shiloh]

I like 844 a tad better than 846 in the smaller cartridges velocity wise (.222, .223) but 846 has been extremely consistent shot to shot at slightly less velocity.

I ordered the 844. There was a mix-up at Pats. They sent the 846.
He offered me 50% refund and apologized profusely.
It worked for me, I have done further business with them, and the rifles don't know the difference. My only complaint, and neither Pats or Bartlett have any control, but the glory days of cheap quality powder are for the most part, gone.

Shiloh

[Franklin Zeman]

I use a Ruger #3 for my .223 loads. Use 846 with CCI450 and R-P cases. For the unfamiliar, a Ruger #3 is a single shot, very strong action, with a 22 inch barrel. It is quite similar to the Ruger #1, but the cheaper/plainer carbine. No longer offered by Ruger. Using a Hornady 55 gr soft point see below. My Chrono on the 846 loads.
846 26gr-3100 fps
26.5grs-3182 fps
27gr-3322fps
Hodgon lists 748-27.5grs-3309FPS
BLC-2-27.5grs-3313fps
Lymans lists AA2460-26.3grs-3182
748-27.8grs-3228fps
H-335-27grs-3270fps

The Lyman and Hodgdon loads are all max!!!!!!!!!!!!! It seems like 846 is in the same general area as the other powders, but lots DO VARY, so work up from below!!!!!!!!