Convince me that swaging fired-brass into bullet jackets is better than gas checks

[Sturmcrow]

I've been reading as much as I can about using fired brass as bullet jackets and I have a few questions. I would likely be using these for 454 Casull and 10mm Auto.

The biggest question I have is, how is this better than just using the proper lead alloy for the expansion you want, and adding a gas check if the velocity is high? I know you would have to lube them, but that seems far easier than this process. It seems funny that a website devoted to getting away from the pernicious bullet jacket has a section dedicated to making alternative jacketed bullets.

To add to that question, I have not been able to find a definitive answer about how fast you can push gas-checked bullets. Can you push a 40gr gas-checked .224 bullet to 4000 fps? Would I have leading problems with a pure lead, gas-checked 300gr bullet lubed with liquid Alox traveling 2200 fps out of my 454 carbine? Thus far, I have only been using wheel-weight, but want to move to 25% ww, 75% pure lead.

The other question I have regards performance. I read accounts that these perform well on game and sometimes form perfect mushrooms when tested, but I cannot find any photographs to back that up. Does anyone have a link to some?

Right now, the only mold I have that is even close to working for this is a .452 300gr Lee 2 cavity. I've been sizing down annealed 45ACP brass to .452, belling the mouth, and jamming the case and core up into a 243WIN sizing die with the expanding ball removed. They come out around 396gr, which is a bit heavy, but there is no lead on the bore-riding surface. If I find that I like this, I'll likely invest in a 250gr mold. For the 10mm, I will likely invest in a 125gr mold that I could use to make cast bullets for my 9mm too.

[clodhopper]

You bring up many points in your post.
I will just address the second paragraph and leave the others for more informed people to respond.

Jacketed bullets were devoloped when bullet velocities started to exceed the the abilities of lead, and lead alloys to travel down a barrel and remain un smeared to the barrel.
Even though many here speak bad of jackets, the real attraction here is making something yourself, and saving money, some of us also suffer from the need to do something fun.
Making bullets, loading bullets, and shooting bullets keeps this crew entertained

[BT Sniper]

40 cal/10mm jacketed bullets from 9mm brass


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1050555.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060026.jpg

I don't think there is any hard feelings on cast vs. jacketed. Who can complain about shooting projectiles for less then the cost of shooting 22lr? Now if someone compares shooting cast to buying commercial jacketed bullets then that is obvious. Dosn't matter if it is lead or jacketed to me. I simply shoot brass jacketed bullets just because it looks cool and not many others in the world are doing the same thing, plus I have all the tooling for jacketed vs. lead.

Both lead or jacketed projectiles will make a hole in a piece of papper, or whatever else you chose to shoot at. Goal is to do it for less then the cost of buying commercial and have a bit of fun while we are at it.

I don't think there is anything to prove one way or the other simply because it is a matter of personal opinion and personal prefrence so long as the shooter is happy with the resluts.

Personaly the only lead I have shot is 22LR :) I don't think I have chosen any side, and I certainly don't wish to, but I have had plenty of success shooting brass jackets up to 3500FPS or down to 900fps and you can bet I am happy :)

You might check in with some of the cast boolit shooters as I'm sure they will have better answers for your gas checked and mixed alloy questions.

I say good shooting and Swage/Cast On!

BT

[a.squibload]

If you swage you need cores so you get to cast too!

Not sure about gas check speed limit, probably lower than jackets
due to lead contacting the barrel.
BT just launched some of his 9mm case/jackets at 3100 fps.
(Posted in another thread, but he won't tell us what cartridge!)

Spent cases are about the same cost as gas checks, maybe less.
More work though.
Haven't heard of barrel fouling from these, as opposed to copper jackets.

If your semi-auto has a gas port, jackets are a good idea.

Polygon barrels can use cast boolits, but supposedly are susceptible to
higher pressure if not sized properly, right alloy, etc.
Jacketed loads are easier to work up for these.

I'm sure there are pics posted of expanded swaged boolits,
at least one thread, but it's getting late so here's one shot.
40s&w dug from dirt after hitting a gallon water jug. One jug ain't enough.
NOT hot loads either.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6k925WV73TE/Tj7EvJI9KwI/AAAAAAAAAQQ/V4QevXSGjsg/s426/40rounds%2520recovered.JPG

[taminsong]

Even though many here speak bad of jackets, the real attraction here is making something yourself, and saving money, some of us also suffer from the need to do something fun.
Making bullets, loading bullets, and shooting bullets keeps this crew entertained

+1 on this idea. For me, this is the ultimate dream, lol! I just can't explain it, but the urge or desire to be able to make a jacketed bullet that I can called my own, is the most satisfying feeling one can have!

If something can't make you sleep and force you to save your pennies so that you can have the tooling you need, then I think it is a real force to be reckon with!

[Reload3006]

the why do it question has been answered almost completely. But for me it was the shortages right after BO got elected and I had a Ruger Deerfield carbine that they specifically warned you not to shoot lead bullets in. So (I know the debate rages wild) I choose not to shoot cast in that rifle. So if you decide to roll your own and cast is not the answer you have to swage.

Now I Both cast and swage and I have to admit I get equal satisfaction from casting and swaging I shoot what I want the way I want it and I am not beholden to the market to sustain the components I want. With the exception of primers and powder.

[runfiverun]

swaging is just another part of the hobby,
i make swaged 44's with jackets, i swage hollow points in some of my cast boolits, i reform others in the die giving me a gaschecked hollowpoint of soft alloy weighing 280 grs that will work in my leverguns.
i also cast 4 other boolits for the same caliber one with a gas check.
i make swaged 223 bullets for my ar's i also cast for my 223/22-250/220 swift
i also use the swage diies to modify the 22 cast boolits for a better fit and flatter nose for hunting.
pushing them along at 27-2900 fps with groups better than i get with most jaxketed bullets for less than half the cost.
i will be doing 308 swaging in the future, and possibly ordering a larger diameter point form die for reshaping some cast/jaxketed i already make too.
swaging gives me options, not only for making jaxketed but it enhances the casting side of it too.
they are more tools.
look around here at those who are involved with other ideas like paper patching [yep do some of that] and i am involved in an extreme lube experiment too.
what you learn from one thing can be carried over to another aspect or enhance it's capabilitys.
what else are you gonna do with that varmint/deer rifle once you have the load it likes figured out?
load some rounds and maybe take it out once a year?

[Sasquatch-1]

I have a Desert Eagle in .44 mag. I cannot fire cast through it at the velocities needed to work the action. The polygonal rifleing will not grip the bullet, with or without gas checks. Also, I have noticed a marked improvement in accuracy since I started using the brass case jackets. Although that may just be psycological.

The down side I have noticed some jacket seperation and the prep time is considerably longer.

I bought 2000 rounds of 40 S&W range brass form a member here for $47.00. I don't know if I could have bought gas checks for that price.

:swagemine:

[Whistler]

Sasquatch-1: My Desert Eagle worked fine (I sold it some time ago) with cast bullets, especially the Lee 310gn RF. You gotta size it to .430 and the harder it is the better it grips. I used water cooled WW and alu gaschecks, worked like a charm and I shot several hundred loads with no ill effect. Lube was Carnauba Red (don't tumble lube, it messes up the gas channel).

[GRUMPA]

I'll chime my .02 worth on this. I do the swagging because I'm a tight SOB, I have mostly GC type moulds and for what they get just for the GC's already doubled the price per already. Most of the pure lead I have is through trades which in the end works out to anywhere from .25-.60lb. Figuring core weights and such the average cost per is .01-.02ea and unless you get a check maker (for GC's) and do it your self you can't get much cheaper per round.

Granted the initial cost for equipment is higher, but the upside is with care they will last forever, and that goes for most of the tools of the trade actually. Now I figure in access to materials in there as well. Lead we can see through pricing isn't as easy to get in all areas at a price we all want to pay, so we as casters and reloaders have a tendency to stock up on most if not all of what we use. Besides cutting out the middleman for what we want we become somewhat creative in doing things we like. For me things like 9mm bras are so abundant that it isn't a concern for me, pure lead for me to get isn't all that hard to obtain either.

It basically boils down to the individual, if your happy with what you can do with cast then stay with it. If a person wants to expand on his/her abilities, learn swagging and find out first hand if it agrees with you. Me it's all about materials and the cost, time doesn't fall into my math on this.

[buck1]

40 S&w made in to .44 mag.

[Reload3006]

being better i can give you 2 reasons.
1) Gas checks do not protect your bore from leading they only slow it down some
2) While gas checks allow you to push bullets faster than plane base cast you still have velocity limits
3) Gas checks cost now about 40 - 60 dollars a thousand. Range pick up is free also less than a box of checks depending on the cartridge case


Cartridge case Free Checks $
Speed limits gas checks ... no speed limits on swaged
Possibly leading with gas checks.... No leading with swaged... can have brass/copper fouling

[Lizard333]

being better i can give you 2 reasons.
1) Gas checks do not protect your bore from leading they only slow it down some
2) While gas checks allow you to push bullets faster than plane base cast you still have velocity limits
3) Gas checks cost now about 40 - 60 dollars a thousand. Range pick up is free also less than a box of checks depending on the cartridge case


Cartridge case Free Checks $
Speed limits gas checks ... no speed limits on swaged
Possibly leading with gas checks.... No leading with swaged... can have brass/copper fouling

Is that your kind of fuzzy math??:drinks:

[Reload3006]

lol I came up with another while I was typing

[Ballard]

A much better question would be why use recycled brass for jackets, when REAL jackets dont cost that much. I love the idea of being able to fashion a jacket from used brass. I do it myself on occasion. .22LR to .224. But when I seriously want to make a gun shoot to its potential, I reach for J4 jackets. Sierra a distant second.

[BT Sniper]

You'll have to be more specific Ballard. Riffle bullets or pistol bullets?

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[Ballard]

Oh, sure. I was speaking rifle bullets.

[BT Sniper]

No prob.

Good shooting

BT

[Sturmcrow]

Thank you for all the great reasons. I had not even considered the polygonal rifling issue. I bought an aftermarket barrel for my Glock for that reason... could have gotten a decent set of swaging dies for less cost. Of course, I do like the full chamber support.

I was being somewhat self-centered in my thoughts on this subject. I was thinking more about turning 45ACP brass into 454 rounds, than about turning 9mm into 40 cal. I hardly ever find free 45ACP brass, and I never see them for sale for less than double what I paid for gas checks.

Lastly, I want to thank you guys for your courtesy. I was a bit worried that I would get a bunch of, "Use the search function!" I did try that of course, and could not find a satisfactory answer.

[BT Sniper]

You welcome anytime.

Good shooting

BT

[Reload3006]

Thank you for all the great reasons. I had not even considered the polygonal rifling issue. I bought an aftermarket barrel for my Glock for that reason... could have gotten a decent set of swaging dies for less cost. Of course, I do like the full chamber support.

I was being somewhat self-centered in my thoughts on this subject. I was thinking more about turning 45ACP brass into 454 rounds, than about turning 9mm into 40 cal. I hardly ever find free 45ACP brass, and I never see them for sale for less than double what I paid for gas checks.

Lastly, I want to thank you guys for your courtesy. I was a bit worried that I would get a bunch of, "Use the search function!" I did try that of course, and could not find a satisfactory answer.
instead of using 45acp brass for 454 40S&W would be a free choice and readly available and will give you what your looking for.

[runfiverun]

you beat me to it.
i had a sizeable amount of 40 cal range pickup brass and instead of buying a gun i had no use for, i spent the money on the swage set for my 44's which i do have.
i have thought about a 45 point form die and just squeezing the 44's up in it.
change the core weight down 10 grs squeeze in the 44 die and roll the nose over for the acp.
add a 10gr heavier core, leave a little exposed on the 44's nose and finish off in the 45 die for the 45 colt or just hollow point in the 45 die with the same core weight.
once you got the tools it's just a matter of figuring out lengths and weights and order of die use.
mess a couple of bullets up and adjust.

[Sturmcrow]

instead of using 45acp brass for 454 40S&W would be a free choice and readly available and will give you what your looking for.

The only problem with 40 S&W brass is that they are bit short for the heavy bullets I want. They seem to be fine for 45ACP, where the 240gr range is optimal, but I'm looking for more like 300gr or more.

Of course, the downside to those heavy bullets is that even with the big 454 case, I am running out of powder room. I bet these would be great in something like 45-70 or 45-110 where there is plenty of room for smokeless powder. Maybe I really should consider bringing my weight down to 250gr to allow more powder room, free jackets, and just use them as plinkers.

[khamill2000]

Lots of 7.62x39 berdan brass out there. That should get you any weight you want.

[Sasquatch-1]

The only problem with 40 S&W brass is that they are bit short for the heavy bullets I want. They seem to be fine for 45ACP, where the 240gr range is optimal, but I'm looking for more like 300gr or more.

Of course, the downside to those heavy bullets is that even with the big 454 case, I am running out of powder room. I bet these would be great in something like 45-70 or 45-110 where there is plenty of room for smokeless powder. Maybe I really should consider bringing my weight down to 250gr to allow more powder room, free jackets, and just use them as plinkers.

I'm not sure what I am about to say is relevent, but I use the 40 for 44's and have to cut the case in half to be able to fit my semi wadcutter that comes out between 250 and 260 grns. I am sure I could easily produce a 300 grain slug using a full case. Now if you are looking for one of the rounded over softpoint or hollow points this may not work.

[runfiverun]

i have made up to 350 gr bullets for my 445.
i really like the 315 gr ones.
there is some exposed lead but thats mainly because of the hollowpoint.
there is maybe, 1/8th inch exposed at this weight with a flat nose.
one thing that works well is to half swage with a hollow, then swap tips and fully form the flat point.
this leaves a small cavity and a small @ 1/32nd hole in the center these do upset rather well in dirt.

[Baryngyl]

How far down can you swage an annealed brass case?
I was wondering if you could swage a 45acp down to use as the jacket for 458 Win Mag, my book says the 45acp brass is 0.480 across the head and it would need to go to 0.458 that would be 0.022, I think that is a lot more then could easily be done, what do you think?

Thank You
Michael Grace

[DukeInFlorida]

When we are swaging this stuff, the head end, especially the rim, doesn't get bigger. The web is too strong to really push that end of the case outwards much.
The .40's, for example, that I swage into 44 mags and 45 acp's, come out looking like wanna-be boat tails.

On the other hand, when I am pushing 5.7X28 FN brass through the reducing die, to get below .308 diameter, it does require a bright anneal, and the brass comes out to the diameter I need.

Please know that you have to swage REDUCE to a size smaller (by a few thousandths) than the finished size, in order to properly form the point form correctly. The ability of the reducing die to do it's reducing is determined by the amount of work hardening which happens to the brass while being reduced.

Examples:
57X28 FN (.311" max diameter) gets reduced to .305 easily with an anneal as a first step.

Your 458 win mag bullets should end up at .458. Bullet weights are in the 300 grain to 500 grain range. Using a 45 acp case, you'd have enough case volume to get into that range. The body diameter of a 45 acp, above the web is approx. .475", and as you point out the rim is .480". So, you would want to anneal first (brass only, no nickle plated!), and then reduce the case to about .455, prior to final point form. There will be some force to do this .025" reduction, even annealed. It might be easier to do the reduction in two steps, with an anneal in between. The nice thing is that a final reduction die could be built, and tested, and if the pressures are too high for normal swaging, an intermediate die could be quickly built to take the pain out of the process. The case, when reduced, gets longer, therefore preserving most of the case volume (weight potential)

Do-able? Yup. Custom die set? Yup.

Tell BT what you are wanting to get to, and what you want to use as raw material, and he'll design a set to get you there.

[BT Sniper]

How far down can you swage an annealed brass case?
I was wondering if you could swage a 45acp down to use as the jacket for 458 Win Mag, my book says the 45acp brass is 0.480 across the head and it would need to go to 0.458 that would be 0.022, I think that is a lot more then could easily be done, what do you think?

Thank You
Michael Grace

No problem at all. I use 45 ACP allready to make .458 bullets with perfect results. It is actually easier to reduce teh 45ACP then other brass cases simply because teh 45ACP has a thinner web, meanes there is less solid brass to try and reduce. I assume that is because the 45ACP is a lower pressure round then others.

Simple fact is that anythign is possible and reducing teh 45 down to .458 is one of the easier reductions.

I've posted pics of the .458 bullets made from 45ACP here before.

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Here's Brian's thread on the subject of the .458 bullets from 45 acp:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=158955&highlight=458

You're welcome.

[rbuck351]

For my hand guns I use only cast and have no issues. For my rifles I hunt with I usually use jacketed but I don't shoot enough jacketed to even begin to pay for the swage dies so I use store bought bullets. I would like to have swage dies in a few calibers but I doubt I would ever shoot enough jacketed to break even. I made my own GC makers so the cost of GCs is nil but it would be nice to be able to make my own jacketed bullets if needed.

[Lizard333]

A lot of the guys here do not swage as an economic means to make jacketed bullets. They swage, like myself, to have to the freedom to make a better jacketed bullet than what you can buy from retailers. This also gives you the ability to make a jacketed bullet, despite what the government has to say about it.

[midnight]

I have a jacket maker from Richard Corbin to make .458 jackets from 30-06 or similar cases. I havn't made bullets with it yet because I have no dies but the sample jackets that came with it look great. Should solve the bullet weight problem. You can make some really long jackets from 30-06 brass. Also Richard sends a core seat punch to match the jacket. Now all I need is dies.

Bob

[Sasquatch-1]

For my hand guns I use only cast and have no issues. For my rifles I hunt with I usually use jacketed but I don't shoot enough jacketed to even begin to pay for the swage dies so I use store bought bullets. I would like to have swage dies in a few calibers but I doubt I would ever shoot enough jacketed to break even. I made my own GC makers so the cost of GCs is nil but it would be nice to be able to make my own jacketed bullets if needed.

I was like you for a long time. I thought for the amount of jacketed bullets I shot that I could always buy them. Unitl just recently. I wanted some 240 grn jacketed in .44mag. for my Desert Eagle. I looked on line in all the stores that sell them in my area and all I could find were 180's. They will work in the DE but it prefers the heavier bullet.

That is when I decided to bite the bullet (what ever on the pun) and started looking for the equipment. As you said, I will never recoup the cost of the equipment, but then again, how many wood workers ever recoup their tool cost? You do it for the pleasure. I can also make any weight bullet I wish. I have made some 310 grn and as low as 180 and everything in between using 40 S&W and 10 mm brass. I could probably go well into the 400's with the 10 mm.

I just wish I had done this 30 years ago.

[475AR]

Do not forget that 6.8spc brass can also be used to make super heavyweight boolits also.

[rbuck351]

Yep, I'd like to have swaging dies in 22, 30 and 35 but the $2500/$3000+ it would take to get set up would buy enough bullets to last the rest of my life and the wife would still throw out half or more when I died. Yes, you can make a better bullet than store bought but for me there is such a thing as good enough.

Another fellow on this forum showed me how to make jacketed bullets without using the normal swaging dies. I am currently making a 270gr jacketed bullet for my 41 mag using reloading dies and a push through sizer from 40S&W cases. They are not as pretty as BTs bullets but they do work. I also have a bunch of 35cal made the same way that I'm getting ready to try.

I have been looking at the various dies for about 35 years and the price has always been to much for me to justify. I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of swaging as there are some advantages but unless I can make my own dies it's not for me.

[SquirrelHollow]

A little late to the thread, but his is my reason:


.40 S&W case wrapped around 195 gr pure lead, for .4315" diameter, 275 gr, fired at 2,200-2,400 fps in .444 Marlin.

A gas-checked bullet soft enough to expand like that would have been too soft for the chamber pressures I'm reaching.
But, a gas-checked bullet hard enough to hold up to the chamber pressure would have fragmented upon impact and "trimmed" itself down to a conical projectile with little to no expansion, if it held together at all.

These did shed some weight, but retaining their shape meant for straight-line penetration. (Lowest recovered weight was 138 gr.) None of them veered off course like commercial bullets tend to do.

http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_6_1.JPG
http://crankylove.net/other/Swage44_5_1.JPG

I've improved my bonding process and modified the alloy since that first test. They retain more weight now. ;)

[MIBULLETS]

SH, those look picture perfect! Without the added bonding, the cores would have poped out of the jackets for sure.

[BT Sniper]

Those do look awsome! The middle one in the lower pic looks great!

BT