"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest... [Archive]

geargnasher

03-27-2012, 03:03 AM

Some discussions elsewhere recently made me think this topic deserves a thread of it's own, so here goes.

The mission is to develop a temperature-insensitive boolit lube primarily for hunting rifles with a goal of accuracy on par with the best lube formulas currently available in for temperature extreme, from below freezing to 100+ degree Texas (or anywhere else) heat, and in the temperate zone between the extremes as well. The lube needs to address, specifically, the common phenom of first-shot or "cold barrel" flyers while also being relatively immune to "lube purging" or progressive layering and purging in a barrel, and also be consistent through long strings of shooting and cumulative barrel heat.

Some lube formulas are excellent at either temperature extreme and some only in between, exhibiting all of the desired properties outlined above, but none that I'm aware of will perform to my satisfaction in all temperture ranges.

The problem in achieving a universal "wonder lube", from my limited perspective, is twofold: First, the "carrier" in most lube formulas has a narrow range of temperature for ideal performance, and second, very few people, least of all me, seem to have a good grasp of exactly what a boolit lube actually DOES. It's very difficult to manipulate a substance for certain attributes when one doesn't know exactly what mechanisms are at play which affect the outcome. This thread is intended to explore these mechanisms and hopefully lead to not only a better understanding of current formulas, but perhaps to better formulas themselves.

I'd like to postulate on the properties of a good boolit lube and the things that do work to achieve them, along with some theorizing of what lube is really doing. This is not presented as absolute fact, but only as a sort of summary of my own understanding of what's going on with boolit lube.

I believe that a boolit lube does two basic things to assist a cast boolit from a piece of fixed ammunition to its target: It provides a delicate and dynamic gas seal between the boolit and the barrel, thus preventing lead deposits from microscopic (or worse) powder gas leaks and the resulting gas abrasion of the boolit. The lube also acts as a film lubricant, preventing metal-to-metal contact in the rifle's bore. This last may appear simple, but lots of shooting with various lube formulas and bore conditions has proven to me that the surface upon which a boolit rides is absolutely critical to accuracy, and the ability of a lube to leave a consistent bore condition under extreme conditions and through long strings of firing is a key attribute of a good lube.

So, from cartridge case to target a lube must seal the bore like engine oil seals compression in a reciprocating engine, it must provide a consistent runway surface (for consistent friction), and it must either remain in the grooves all the way to the target or leave the boolit immediately and completely upon muzzle exit once its job in the barrel is completed so it doesn't affect the balance of the boolit on the free path to the target.

In order to do this, a boolit lube must:
1. Have the correct viscosity to match the pressure sealing requirements of a given load and alloy,
2. Have the correct amount of "drag" each shot, which may be a factor of both viscosity and lubricity,
3. Have the correct lubricity to maintain consistent bore surface,
4 Maintain the correct viscosity and lubricity through temperature extremes of both atmosphere, chamber, and barrel,
5. Have enough tack to stick to a boolit during handling, storage, and loading,
6. Not have so much tack that it only partially jettisons in flight.
7. Some other things that strike me as important are the ability of a lube to be left in a barrel without danger of corrosion, no "weeping" of oils in the heat to contaminate powder, no bad reaction with the cartridge brass during long-term storage, immunity to humidity, and compatibility with standard lube application equipment.

Traditionally, it seems that the trend in recipes has been to start with a "carrier" which is a foundation for the lube, usually a wax of some sort, which will absorb lubricating oils within its structure like a sponge and deliver them to the barrel while providing some substance to the liquid oils such that they can be installed in the grooves. This "substance" is the overall viscosity which also seems to aid the "stop leak" attributes so necessary to a good lube formula. Other things are added to modify the properties of these two general classes of lube ingredients or to add desireable properties of their own, such as graphite, carnauba wax, moly disulfide, etc. Some additives, like metal or organic soaps, are almost a third class unto themselves that I would call "binders". The various Aloxes and many EP greases contain calcium soaps, and the lithium soaps also make the greases sometimes used in lubes a carrier/lube combination unto themselves. Stearates also apply to this class, sodium stearate and stearic acid come to mind, there are others. These soaps provide lubricating properties of their own, and also can serve to bind lube ingredients together in a robust, homogenous mix.

The big issue for me has been to get all the properties of the 1-7 list in a lube with the commonly used and understood lube ingredients, and here's where the discussion gets interesting. What does each ingredient do, what is the failure point, how does it fail, and how can a formula be put together that will offer better all-season performance than the usual suspects of lube recipes?

Let that soak in for a minute and I'll start another post with a discussion of some formulas I use and why I think they work, and why they have limits.

Gear

geargnasher

03-27-2012, 03:37 AM

Some observations about lubes I've used. I primarily use what is essentially Felix lube for most of my shooting because it does what I need it to from .45 ACP plinking loads all the way to 2700 fps paper-patch lube, and particularly it provides the best, most consistent accuracy in my regular cast boolit rifle loads in the temperatures I most commonly shoot, from 50 degrees to well over 100, and will put the first shot in the same group as the last, be it the only shot or one of fifty or more. All this through hundreds of rounds without significant barrel cleaning. By significant, I mean I might push a clean, dry patch through it for a month or two of storage, only to remove the hygroscopic surface powder dust and prevent rusting. No other lube I've tried can do this quite as well, proof that Felix knew what he was doing when he invented the stuff, and I'm most grateful that he shared his formula with us and has offered so much "tech support" over the years.

I wish I knew exactly why Felix lube works so well, and I have learned volumes by tweaking it and observing the effects, but still it's basically a mystery to me. I know it does 1-7 of the previous list, but there are two things I've found through a variety of testing that it doesn't do quite as well as I'd like unless I adjust it: First shot, cold barrel flyers, usually high and to one side, about 1-2 MOA out of the group, when it's cold. I mean below 50 degrees, really below freezing for it to show up in a bad way. Adding Vaseline or more lanolin tends to fix this, but also tends to cause purge flyers in hot weather. The other thing is it just isn't quite as accurate in cold weather, even from a warm barrel, as it is in the heat. Adding more of the lubricating oils fixes this and make it shoot great again, but blows the groups in hot weather because, as is said, "it's too slippery". Obviously a balance must be found and maintained, but I want ONE lube to cover all the bases. I'd also like world peace and to live in a country governed of, by, and for the people, which might be more likely.

I've mentioned it before, 357Maximum's formula "MML", was developed for cold weather shooting, my understanding being it specifically addresses the cold barrel flyer syndrome. I've made it and tested it and it does very well. In the cold. Much above 80 degrees it starts the purge flyer thing, which goes away if you dry-patch after every shot and don't let your ammo sit in the sun. Great stuff for what it was designed for.

Alox is something I fundamentally don't like. I used Lyman's version of the NRA lube for 15 years before I figured out there was better stuff. The problems seemed to stem from the residue it left in the barrel. Even liquid Alox leaves an ash residue in the barrel, and with any formula containing Alox seems to require frequent barrel cleanings to maintain accuracy. It makes cast boolits act just like a target rifle does to copper fouling accumulation: Groups just start getting bigger and bigger until you clean it with a solvent and patch, then it's back to normal for ten shots or so. I attribute this to the high calcium soap content leaving a cumulative residue in the bore, but I could be wrong. One member here makes so much noise about Javelina Alox that I bought some and tried it in a new-to-me Lyman 45 I'd just cleaned up. It does the same thing the Lyman stuff does in rifles, so I lubed a bunch of pistol stuff with it and it's gone now.

White Label Carnauba Red does the same thing Felix lube does, but is even more pronounced at lower temperatures. It responds favorably to similar modifications for cold weather use. I call it a "high temp, high pressure, high velocity" lube, and it's very well suited for what it does.

I've tried a variety of lubes in rifles and handguns and done lots of reading about what others have experienced, but all the formulas seem to have their ideal window of use, and none encompass the range of shooting weather I and many others endure. Many commercial and home-made concoctions do much worse than the three I mentioned above. There are quite a few I've tested, but not thoroughly enough to draw any conclusions. Among these are Bullshop's Speed Green and Lotak, the LBT lubes, Randyrat's lubes, Jake's and White Label 2500+, but perhaps others have. I'd like to hear from everyone, see what experiences they have with these and any others I haven't mentioned.

I'd love to just mix MML and Felix lube together and be done with it, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way, although it does make a very good lube unto itself for mild-weather shooting!

Gear

runfiverun

03-27-2012, 03:42 AM

i got your p.m.
i will comment on your other thread and let this one run it's course.
we are both working in the same direction.
as i done some other stuff like you mentioned in the p.m.

let's put on our thinking caps here guy's.
the only thing i will add is that E.P. greases get thier ep rating because of the solids added to the calcium soap.

357maximum

03-27-2012, 05:17 AM

If you ever get a lube to: WORK PERFECTLY, EVERYTIME, FROM SUB ZERO TO 110 DEGREES WITH GREAT ACCURACY AT EVERY IMAGINEABLE SPEED WITH NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER.

call me customer Numeral Uno please. :wink: I will take the first 10lbs of the stuff off your hands........I await your PM:kidding:

In all seriousness I wish you luck. I have found that just as in life, lube also requires some compromise. What works for me on cool November mornings in Michigan most likely ain't gonna work so well in Death Valley in July. The only thing I have found that would do that is wrapping the cast boolit with paper, but you may want "THE QUEST" worse than I did. I spent 5 years and about $600 before I settled at "CLOSE NUFF FER ME" .

btroj

03-27-2012, 07:18 AM

I really think that a lube needs to lay down a consistent "bed" on the bore to maintain good accuracy. The problem with Carnuba Red for me was the cold barrel flyers. It took me aout 5 rounds in my Marlin 32-20 to get it to settle down at temps below 50 degrees. After that it was fine, unless it sat long enough for the barrel to cool back down. Seems to me that the lube remaining in the barrel must get just stiff enough to cause a problem when it cools down enough. I also think the low velocity, light bullet made it worse. I have not noticed this in my 45-70 at all.

I think the carrier is much more of an issue than the lube part is. We know of many, many good oils and stuff to add for slipperiness. When you look at the various lube recipes they use only a small umber of carriers. Most are beeswax, paraffin, or micro wax based. I think our Holy Grail lies in finding a carrier, or mix of carriers, that give the properties we need.

I will soon be testing MMl in the summer heat. I have liked it so far for cool weather. I may need to do some accuracy testing along with rapid fire work to give it a good test in extremes.

btroj

03-27-2012, 07:52 AM

Hey 357 Max, did you ever try a mix of beeswax and microwax in your lube? Just wondering if it might adjust the melt point and give a viable hardness over a wider temp range. I know the microwax has a very specific, sharp melt point. Wondering if adding beeswax might stretch that point over a wider range giving a lube with a wider range of useful temps.

Just thinking out loud.

felix

03-27-2012, 08:08 AM

Are we are saying in this thread that we need a "paper" jacket that is easy to apply? Lube with cellulose as principal component would be the cat's meow. The paper jacket represents immediate purging, and that is the primary result of the lube we are after. ... felix

geargnasher

03-27-2012, 11:21 AM

Mike, I'll put you first on the list! The paper jacket indeed eliminates all the BS, and allows a 50% velocity increase in a 10"-twist .30 caliber without loss of accuracy, but I also still like to shoot greasers and I think there has to be a way to at least reduce the compromise.

Brad, I also believe the carrier, or the overall viscosity of the lube changing with temperature, is the culprit. R5R and I are pretty much after the same thing by trying to find a thermally stable carrier. Mike also adds some beeswax to one of his formulas for the reasons you mention.

Felix, I've thought about that a lot too. Operating from the premise that paper fibers and gun metal have compatible friction characteristics, I've sought a cellulose-based thickener or lube base that would be thermally stable and hold some oil, but haven't found anything that works yet. So far I've tried cornstarch, baker's flour, whole wheat flour, Metamucil, Benefiber, and a few other things including polyethylene powder, talc and graphite. Pulping paper without water has been an issue. Last night I shredded some Viva paper towel material and mixed it with various things to try to get it to stick to the grooves, but haven't found anything worth trying to shoot yet. If some sort of wax or grease-based substance could be used to bind the paper fibers I think it would make an outstanding stop-leak and wouldn't need to be as viscous or sticky as traditional lubes to help the seal, therefore could be formulated to "let go" much better. I don't expect any traditional lube to be able to perform as well as a paper jacket simply because lube can't strengthen the driving bands like paper will, but it could be made with paper fibers or wood pulp and possibly improve the overall quality of traditional lube.

What I'm playing with now is a two-part formula using simply Ivory soap as a "carrier" and various synthetic oils as "lubes" and viscosity modifiers. The soap is fairly temperature stable, has some interesting lube qualities of its own, and the synthetic oils are viscosity-stable as well. It's tough to make the stuff, but I'm ending up with cookie-dough-like stuff that is sticky enough but not too sticky, does a good job of filling the grooves, seems to be the "right" consistency, and might just survive humidity issues. If it doesn't corrode steel or brass and doesn't suck up too much water once laid down in a gun barrel, and if it shoots worth a darn to begin with, it might have some promise.

Gear

nanuk

03-27-2012, 02:49 PM

this is why I love this site

I will be watching with interest

I expect we noobs will be able to learn more about the mechanics and characteristics of lube from this thread, added to the many others, than we could ever on our own by reading books

the dynamic nature of the "Forum" environment is spectacular for these types of discussions.

375RUGER

03-27-2012, 09:26 PM

What do you think of posting the lube recipes we know have particular characterics we like. GEAR has already given the pros and cons of MML and FWFL.
Seems it would be easy to follow and/or understand what we know and what we don't know if we can reference quickly the particular recipes of the lubes that have those desirable qualities and the cons, especially for those of use who are just following along and trying to pick up the mechanics of the whole thing.

randyrat

03-27-2012, 09:53 PM

{ GEAR Wrote
Felix, I've thought about that a lot too. Operating from the premise that paper fibers and gun metal have compatible friction characteristics, I've sought a cellulose-based thickener or lube base that would be thermally stable and hold some oil, but haven't found anything that works yet. So far I've tried cornstarch, baker's flour, whole wheat flour, Metamucil, Benefiber, and a few other things including polyethylene powder, talc and graphite. Pulping paper without water has been an issue. Last night I shredded some Viva paper towel material and mixed it with various things to try to get it to stick to the grooves, but haven't found anything worth trying to shoot yet.}

I think your crazy, but in a good way. Your not thinking in the box at all. I think your looking for a very short grain pulp fiber and something that will break it down. Dry it into a powder and then mix a "kind a lube" with it..I think you may have a great idea there. We need a paper expert, or a paper/pulp scientist.

all (I think) you need is to cut or shred paper against the grain in very small pieces so you have very short grains of pulp, mix it while it is drying then find a binder that is a lube, mix and apply...I'll bet you could apply it with a lube sizer. the paper content could be used in different proportions until a balance is found.

OR
Just buy my lube it works down to -10 degs F....Any colder I have not tested it. the strong urge to warm up is stronger than the urge to test.

geargnasher

03-27-2012, 10:05 PM

True, 375, I'm assuming a lot here on the part of the reader. Some of the recipes we reference are known, others are trade secrets, and some of them are very subjective depending on the grade of components used. Most of the recipes like FWFL, MML, Darr, Saeco Green, Emmert's, and dozens of others are listed in the lube recipe sticky, although, like you say, it isn't exactly a quick reference.

The thing is, with most of the commonly used ingredients, like Mike explained, you can't get "there" from "here". Just about every conceivable combination of beeswax, soy wax, natural oils, paraffins (liquid and solid), grease, other waxes, soaps, etc. has been tried, and none of them are quite it yet for all purposes, although some are very close to perfection for wide ranges of precision shooting.

It's time for a fresh look at things.

Gear

btroj

03-27-2012, 10:25 PM

Randy, a lube that works well down to 10 below isn't tough to find. It is getting that same lube to work well at 100 degrees too that is a problem.
I don't know about paper as a "lube". It would need to be easily applied with normal lube sizers or simple tools. I eagerly await Gears testing in this area.
What we need is a wax that exhibits the charecteristics of a multi viscosity oil. Something with a wide range of useful viscosity and no tendency to get stiff at 0 F and runny at 100 F. Anybody know a 10W40 honeybee?

geargnasher

03-27-2012, 10:30 PM

....
What we need is a wax that exhibits the charecteristics of a multi viscosity oil. Something with a wide range of useful viscosity and no tendency to get stiff at 0 F and runny at 100 F. Anybody know a 10W40 honeybee?

You got it!

DuPont makes some interesting synthetic wax that might fit the bill, but you have to buy it by the container load.

Gear

btroj

03-27-2012, 10:56 PM

I am not gonna honcho that group buy.
We need something that goes against normal logic. Something that gets softer as the temp goes down. That is going to be a pretty unusual substance. Then to ask it to be safe to handle, non corrosive, and that it has properties that allow it to "work" as a fluid gasket in our bore.

DrCaveman

03-28-2012, 02:49 AM

Though they melt at low temps, I haven't really heard any mentions of animal fats or renderings. Maybe mixed with a 2-cycle oil & candle wax you have a lube covering more range?

I have not tested this, but maybe it sets some wheels spinning for concoctions.

runfiverun

03-28-2012, 03:31 AM

gear: cotton or wool....
length will be your biggest obstacle, but either will take the lube the carrier will take them too.
i'd bet cattails would too and might be easier to work with.
we don't need a multi visc carrier we need a non changing modifiable one.
i did get some testing with the "j"- lube today, it's a synthetic grease and glycol solid lube.
it did excellent.
pushing a 190 gr boolit with 18 grs of 2400 and 18 with 1.5 grs of filler through my 8x57.
the 18 had a cold bbl first shot three times in a row that was within a half inch all three times.
twice high and once low.
the fillered load done no better and at one point i fired 20 shots in a row, i had a couple of flyers one was definately me.
and the other had to have been a bad boolit or case as i had a hard time chambering the round.
this is not a target rifle it will be used for hunting this year with this boolit.
it is just a rem 700 in 8x57 with a 3x9 leupold bdc scope.
the alloy is 7 lbs of plain 22 lead and 1 lb of linotype waterdropped.
50 rounds of this was fired with no leading whatsoever and no surprises. i could tell that i have 4 lands in the bbl though.
i now have a baseline to work from.
the air temp was right at 50f.
i shot two other lubes also today, my normal winter mix. [no surprises here it did what it does]
and my 50/50-50/50 [60-40] 25/1 quick drying tumble lube.
an interesting note on this one following the 20 fillered rounds.
the boolit holes started out right of my aiming point, come left across the aiming point slightly, then back to the aiming point, and stayed there making a very large hole in the target.

150 rounds of 8mm today and well over 100 from the 223 waiting for the 8's bbl to cool off.
plus assembling new 200 yd and 100 yd backstop frames at the club made for a long day.
anyways there's a first report.

Reload3006

03-28-2012, 08:57 AM

when I was in the Navy we used to have to do PM on lots of stuff and if it had a wire rope Cable we used to grease it down with this stuff that was a grease and it also had a lot of fibrous elements to it I wonder if it would be a good lube base for boolits.

runfiverun

03-28-2012, 10:10 AM

it might. i know on aircraft carriers they go through something like 200 gallons of grease a day.
everything from greasing the cables to oil for the launcher.

Grandpas50AE

03-28-2012, 10:19 AM

Gear and R5R,
years ago I read an article in G&A about powders, and an interesting point in the article was about the celluloid material used as the base. Before WWII it was cotton linters, then the production volumes for WWII required a cheaper source of celluloid, and the powder manufacturers (OLIN was first if I recall correctly) found wood pulp to be their best substitute. I don't remember if it was in the same article or something I came across later, but it seems that the wood fibers were ground to a pulping-friendly fiber size, and soaked in an alkali solution to break the fibers down to usable size (much like hominy is done). At some point the alkali was probably neutralized, then the rest of the process begun to turn the pulp into nitro cellulose. Not sure what it would take to approximate the first part of that process, but that may be worth looking at. Hope this info helps.

runfiverun

03-28-2012, 12:57 PM

p.h. is easy, i believe we discussed that on another thread.
any ways some of the recent powders that have been going through changes and becoming cleaner burning through the addition of nitroglycerin etc is just now getting the cheaper saw dust base.
at one time right as smokeless was coming out, there was an invention called brown powder which was made from oatgrass charcoal [airc] which was finely ground before being made into charcoal.
this new powder was much better than black, it burned cleaner and smoked less.
but not quite as good as smokeless.
rush ahead 100 years and we now [recently] have about 6 different "better" black powder formulas.
when a better one has been there the whole time.
i am sure what we want is available it's just finding it,or the closest thing for our purposes.

Marlin Junky

03-28-2012, 01:24 PM

Has anyone tried substituting microcrystalline wax for beeswax; i.e., completely remove the beeswax?

You're probably still going to require lubes of varying viscosities depending on velocity and ambient temperature, but why not start with a base (or carrier) that comes from the vendor in different viscosities vs. adding stuff to beeswax to accomplish the same goal?

http://www.blendedwaxes.com/index.php/products/microcrystalline-waxes

The melt point of even the softest micro wax is at least 20F higher than beeswax and by design, these waxes bind to oils more vigorously than natural waxes.

MJ

geargnasher

03-28-2012, 01:30 PM

Yes, MJ, that's been done quite a bit. 357Max has taken Microwax base to full maturity, I believe.

R5R, those results are certainly encouraging, maybe heavy, synthetic grease is going to work after all. I see you didn't need to add any carnauba to reduce the tack? Just the PEG?

Gear

Marlin Junky

03-28-2012, 01:39 PM

Yes, MJ, that's been done quite a bit. 357Max has taken Microwax base to full maturity, I believe.

Gear

I think Mike has only experimented with mirco/beeswax blends... what say you Mike?

MJ

geargnasher

03-28-2012, 01:54 PM

Response to your editied post #22, that is precisely what I'm trying to avoid. I have excellent recipes that do exactly what I want them to at different temp ranges, even with considerable overlap, but some of us are trying to improve on that. Conventional thinking won't get you there, and like I explained before, the melt point of microwax plummets the instant you start adding oils to it.

Gear

btroj

03-28-2012, 03:20 PM

My understanding was that 357 Max used strictly microwax in the end product. I think he made a different for USA for guys that use the Star and it contained some beeswax to make it have "slush" phase rather than go from solid to liquid in a hurry.

Like gEar said, the micro waxes have been used for many recipes, I don't think they are the answer.

I think this is going to take an entirely new thought process.

If I understand what Run is tryig is to use a heavy grease and modify the hardness rather than adding an oil or grease to a carrier. I don't know enough about greases to amount to anything, I will, however, eagerly await the results. I will also be more than happy to test any recipes that are dreamt up.

Marlin Junky

03-28-2012, 03:44 PM

...and like I explained before, the melt point of microwax plummets the instant you start adding oils to it.

Gear

Gear,

Have you tried combining red lithium grease and mirco wax? I didn't suggest adding oil to micro wax (I should've been more specific than simply saying "stuff"). Red lithium (high pressure/temperature grease) will combine with Vaseline (melt temp approx. 165F) to form a gel that is soluble in beeswax which shoots very well. I haven't actually got around to purchasing micro wax but have received two different samples from BW and couldn't tell much difference between them in terms of hardness.

MJ

runfiverun

03-28-2012, 04:03 PM

it is a synthetic grease with propylene glycol solids in it. and of course calcium stearates.
it has a lot of tackyness.
it is malleable after being in the microwave for 3 minutes and after being in the freezer for 24 hrs.
the tackyness might have to be backed down some with carnuba.
the lube starts flowing instantly when under pressure.
i could feel it on the front part of the necks of the case [another reason it might need the carnuba]
i found none anywhere on the target even looking at the holes on the target under a magnifying glass.
i could not find any of the boolits or any part of them and i looked and dug in newly poured berm.
but this could also be due to the velocity 1900 or more from the regular load.
and the dacron filler had to bump me over 2000 by quite a bit.

this is a commercially made grease stick and there are other variations but i am not sure of it's cost.
if it pans out i want to search out easily found ingredients so it can be duplicated from the walmart or autozone.
this is one of the two directions i am looking at, the other is gonna take longer to check out, as it needs to keep on evolving.

largom

03-28-2012, 08:56 PM

Marlin Junky

03-28-2012, 10:30 PM

This grease sounds interesting (kinda pricey though):

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/gxc.aspx?zo=530293

MJ

geargnasher

03-28-2012, 11:19 PM

Do to my location I do not hunt in extreme temp. variations. With that said, my FWFL has performed flawlessly but if there was something better I would surely want it. I just wish I had enough smarts to be able to contribute to this thread. I will follow it and think it is going to be one of the most imformative that I have seen. If anyone can accomplish this goal it will be the folks on this forum.

Larry

It's tough to beat what you use. If we can find something that equals Felix lube at normal temps and works equally well at either extreme then we'll really have something.

I'm off to the gun room in a minute to hand-lube and check some more Lee 312-185s so I can see how this soap/atf concoction I've been working on shoots.

Gear

geargnasher

03-28-2012, 11:24 PM

MJ, I looked at that recently too. I think you might be on to something.

Gear

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 02:55 AM

thats similar to what i am using, but no aluminum.
M.J. that kind of stuff is what we need.

Larry and others:
contributing can be as little as encouragement or researching greases or sights with greases that might help.
the ability to cross reference what i have plus the information gear has, versus what else is available might be what WE need to put the final piece together.

amsoil,chevron,royal purple,lucas oil, chemec. and dozens of other companies have engineers that make thier living dealing with valve greases,equipment needs,cold temps,pressure seals made with grease,etc every day.
we can track down thier comments or specifications put four or five middle of the road things in a group and make some good estimates on what they are doing.
we will have to test and stuff and it might take more time but we have numbers [a lot even have available time] and more brain power here especially if focused on one thing.

you all should see the garage here, i have little groups of lube and some control groups and two different note pads scattered about the place.
a lot of them have 3-4 lubed and sized boolits sitting in front of them..

i have had to clean my microwave out twice in the last week [POP! ahhhh ****]
polymer,carnuba,and parrafin is slippery, nu finish makes jpw melt real fast, it also makes it boil and spit out of a cup even with the lid set to just let the solvents vent.
adding mica to trewax makes a sandy looking slippery that shrinks as it dries, hopefully it will stabilize when finished and can be remelted without it doing it again.

lavenatti

03-29-2012, 07:51 AM

The krytox family of lubricants:
http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/products/Products_Greases.html
May prove helpful. The temperature range is quite broad.

Since it uses PTFE as a thickener, you may be able to add a little more PTFE powder to the grease to get it to a usable consistency, eliminating the need for a temperature sensitive carrier like beeswax.

Powdered PTFE is easy to find, I've seen it on ebay.

The cost, I'm sure, is going to be higher than most common lubes. The toxicity of PTFE when exposed to temperatures over 500 degrees F should be considered but should be minimal when used outdoors.

bowfin

03-29-2012, 01:14 PM

I am reading this during lunch, but I am going to stop for now and come back when I can give it more time and attention.

This is going to be one of those threads a guy will have to study!

geargnasher

03-29-2012, 01:55 PM

The thing about using grease is that it's already set up to do a certain job or range of jobs: It's a base oil, thickener, and possibly EP additives too. When we modify grease to make boolit lube, we're monkeying with a pre-engineered formula. Wouldn't it be nice to just order up what we need?

Turns out there's a name for lube cooks, Tribo-Engineer. One who studies and practices tribology, the art of making grease. If you want to know how to engineer a grease for a certain purpose from scratch, check this out. But only if you really wanna know! http://www.klubersolutions.com/?gclid=CIqb8I-ji68CFS-htgodtGIrmA Scroll down to the article header "Tribology, the key to proper lubricant selection". It's a PDF.

So I learned a couple of things about grease that might be helpful. First, the NLGI rating for hardness. "zero" weight is almost an oil, 1-3 are typical chassis and axle grease weights, 4 is a firm grease, 5-6 are very firm greases, almost solid, and 7-8 are called "block grease" because they are formulated to be so hard. We don't have to take an NLGI#2 Amsoil grease and thicken it with who-knows-what to make boolit lube, we can get grease already thick enough, like the stuff R5R's playing with (valve grease). I know that's pretty basic stuff to some, but new to me. Even after 20 years of professional automotive training, an AAS in automotive service, and most of the way to an ME degree that little tidbit somehow escaped me. According to some charts the wonderful internet and search engines found me, we're looking for an NLGI#5 or 6 grease for boolit lube.

Something else I discovered was the vast variety of grease thickeners. There are metal soap thickeners, of course, like Calcium, lithium, complexes of each, aluminum, barium and other metals. There are organic thickeners like bentonite clay, and polymer thickeners like Teflon and UHMWPE. Simply making a paste from certain solids with lubricating base oils seems to work, and as far as I can tell is THE way to go for boolit lube because it's even less affected by temperature than the soap-thickened greases. The polyethylene powder thickeners seemed to be the best thing imaginable for a boolit lube, but the stuff burns at something around 500F so I wonder if it will hold up. According to Wikipedia (has to be true, right?) there are some reactivity issues between UHMWPE and organic acids (Nitrates particularly), which makes me wonder how it and smokeless powder or residue will react.

Like Lavenatti mentioned, you could find a grease that fit the bill but was in a more "normal" viscosity range (like the stuff MJ linked, the food-grade, extreme temp. aluminum soap synthetic that Amsoil makes) and add more of the same thickening agent to get what we want for boolit lube. Obviously this would be easier with solid, intert thickeners than with the soap complexes. PTFE might be one way to go, but I still shy away from the stuff due to the heat decomposition. It does work on frying pans, though, I have to give it that.

Gear

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 02:01 PM

gear. the ivory is causing me some problems.
i had it bleeding water in some applications, even after the heat fizz stage.

geargnasher

03-29-2012, 02:11 PM

I keep my Ivory on top of my water heater, some of it has been there for years. It's exactly the consistency of sheetrock, I shave it with spice grater and it turns to powder, only just a little foaming and then it settles down. I never saw water bleed from it, is the final mix weeping or sweating after it cools? The stuff I made a couple of nights ago is calming down and getting to where it sticks to itself better (I forget the term for that), but still not too tacky. Moisture might prove to be a problem with it though. Weather and construction is going to keep me from the range today, maybe tomorrow or Sunday.

The more I study about greases the less I seem to know! One thing's for sure, there's stuff out there today that Col Harrison never could have dreamed of. That's why I feel it's time for a serious rethinking of this lube thing, we've been compromising for years with the same old formulas while technology has been improving grease by leaps and bounds.

Gear

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 02:22 PM

i have been trying to find over the counter #4 or #5 stuff that can be modified so we can target a specific viscosity.
i am still not 100% sure a calcium grease is what we want.
my f.i.l. has an old grease that first started me on this path.
it isn't made any longer of course, it was stiffer than anhydrous lanolin but was not an e.p.
there would be a couple of ways to do this, harden up a #4-5 or soften down a #7 [this poses it's own set of problems]
i did get the "j" lube to thermally break down last night trying this.
it was so hot that it melted a plastic fork on contact and the pete cup it was in. the two stroke in the wave with it was fine.
that had to be quite a sight, me trying to get the hot stinking crumbling grease in a melting cup
with oil running out and a fork melting in it out of the garage and into the garbage can in the middle of a blizzard with no shoes on at 3 a.m.

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 02:35 PM

this is stuff i have had sitting in the basement in the dry room for a couple of years the outside powdered up by scraping a knife down it's edge the inside is still soft and there is a definate line there.
it was some slippery water though and didn't seem to evaporate quite as quick as water.
it sweat out of the paste i was making as it cooled and clumped.
i re-heated it and it done it again.
it might have come from the nu-finish ivory combo i was working on i wanted them combined and dried so i could powder them. and add them to a grease.
it's making more of a soft soap combination.
i might just lube boolit up with it as is.
adding lucas oil additive did not respond too much to being thickened up by this.
but this combo would make a decent lube with a traditional carrier.

geargnasher

03-29-2012, 02:48 PM

The biggest problem with modifying existing greases is knowing what's in the grease to begin with so you know what to add that will be compatible. A good synthetic base oil and a lot of thickener should do it. I don't know that any EP additives are really necessry, and I don't like calcium soaps. Good grease, not so good with the junk it leaves in a rifle barrel.

You mentioned Lucas, which reminded me about the "friction modifier" we discussed earlier. I have a variety of that stuff in the garage, from the various Mopar additives to the Ford stuff, and some BG and Winn's modifier, and of course the classic AC Delco limited slip additive. I wish I could tell you that it's an additive package that reverses the viscosity trend with regard to heat, but I don't think it is. Just stuff to keep the LS clutches from chattering on turns. I was always told that the Ford stuff was "sperm whale oil" and it might have been at one time, just a good film lubricant.

I wish I knew more about UHMWPE powder, I'll have to do some more research.

Gear

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 04:30 PM

Marlin Junky

03-29-2012, 06:00 PM

...We don't have to take an NLGI#2 Amsoil grease and thicken it with who-knows-what to make boolit lube, we can get grease already thick enough...

Gear

Gear,

If you notice the "Technical Properties" of AMSOIL X-Treme Synthetic Food Grade Grease, (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/gxc.aspx?zo=530293) the first thing they list is a "Thickener"; i.e., "Synthetic Aluminum Complex". What would be an example of a "Synthetic Aluminum Complex"?

MJ

P.S. Check out this link:

http://www.opti-lube.com/

geargnasher

03-29-2012, 06:31 PM

Bentonite is used to thicken some greases for use in stupidly hot enviroments. It also doesn't provide the viscous drag that lithium and calicium complexes do, or not as much. When combined with a synthetic oil, it leaves a thinner lube film behind, according to an article I read the bentonite will leave a 50% thinner film behind than the base oil alone will. This could be good for gunbarrels, bad for bearings. Other carrier/thickeners can have the opposite effect, leaving almost twice the film layer of the base oil alone. Interesting stuff. Bentonite grease, like everything else, has advantages and disadvantages in industry, but it might work as a good boolit lube. I do know that bentonite is incompatible with many common grease thickeners.

Gear

Marlin Junky

03-29-2012, 06:48 PM

Gear,

It looks like block greases can range from NLGI#5 to 8+. They are also reasonably priced.

Attached is a spec sheet (I didn't bother to format it) for a lithium/mineral/moly block grease. If it isn't the proper viscosity (i.e., too hard) can it be adjusted with mineral oil? According to the spec's, it melts at 365F.

MJ

geargnasher

03-29-2012, 07:35 PM

MJ, I looked at that and a few others at the opti-lube site a few days ago, I was particularly interested in the synthetics but couldn't find a link to more info from their site for those.

Here's another one I've been pondering. It's probably similar to the valve grease mentioned by some of the members before in the other thread. http://toyointernational.com/eaj-600-bentone-high-temp-grease/

Gear

Marlin Junky

03-29-2012, 07:59 PM

Gear,

It looks like opti-lube's synthetics are grade 2 with a very wide operating range:

http://www.opti-lube.com/synth.htm

I wasn't able to find an operating range for the block greases.

MJ

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 08:01 PM

mineral oil is listed as one of it's ingredients.
i didn't see it's number.
i went and looked at some greases and such today at our local distributor.
just as a comparison #2 is what we use for greasing front ends on cars and such.
#1,#1-1/2,and #2 are easily located here.
#2 is the easiest to get of course.
i put out some feelers on number-5 a whole box [12 tubes] is about the lowest number they want
to order in.
it might not come that way but they didn't know.
even with the mine here, they had a pretty good selection of different #2's and a few specialty ones, but nothing suitable.
the guy asked what i was gonna do with it. i told him i was going use about 1 thousandth of an thick seal of it to hold back 45 thousand k of pressure.
that got me a raised eyebrow.
i then chuckeled and said i was gonna make a specialty boolit lube for my rifle.
he says allright and climbs down from where he was, led me into his office took my number down and is gonna make some calls.

softpoint

03-29-2012, 08:11 PM

I have 2 tubes of grease here at the shop that is used to pack plug valves and such in high pressure well fracking. It is already nearly as thick as most "soft lubes".I have thought about this stuff before as a bullet lube, it is pretty sticky, and one of the characteristics of it is that it cannot thin out too much in heat,or the valves will leak, and cannot thicken too much in the cold, or the valves will not operate. I am going to see if I can find some more information on it. It comes in standard size tubes, but requires a special "grease gun" because it is too thick for a regular automotive type gun. :redneck:

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 08:16 PM

this more like it.

http://www.chemola.com/product-detail.aspx?cid=1&sid=4&i=18

-20 to + 450 is a typical useable temp zone for most of these things.
but if these two different lubes i have are a number 3 anything over that is super stiff.
i can't find a grease number on either box i somewhat assumed it was a number 5.
as they are double the hardness/visosity easily of #2.

geargnasher

03-29-2012, 08:20 PM

[smilie=l: Sounds like something I'd say. The somewhat nervous UPS dude dropped off a 64-pound box of "flammable and explosive" stuff from a reloading supply house at my door this afternoon, he asked me if I was making bombs, I asked him if I looked like a friggin' towelhead. I told him he should have delivered it to me first rather than have to have all that dangerous stuff riding around in the back of his truck all day! I opened the box in front of him just to show him what it was. I'm sure he expects to seem me in the news.

I don't think we'll find what we want at the autoparts store, unfortunately, but the industrial stuff can be had, for sure.

Here's what I'm leaning toward at this point, see if any of you know something close:

NLGI 6 or so hardness
Bentone, aluminum, or calcium sulfonate thickener? A "no drop point" grease may not be the way to go, it would be tough to get a hard, block, non-melting grease into a lube-sizer you know!) I'm thinking bentone grease would be a great stop-leak, though. Just not sure what the best thickener (gelling) system will prove to be. Input???
Synthetic base oil with heat-stable viscosity, perhaps a silicone or POA?
If we can find a product with the above qualities, I think EP and non-dropping properties might prove to be "overrated" for boolit lube. Definetely need a synthetic base oil for thermal stability, perhaps even the lithium thickeners would do in that case. Moly would be a nice bonus to deal with the high-pressure of the land edges in tight twists/high velocity, not sure how much it's needed though.

Gear

Marlin Junky

03-29-2012, 08:21 PM

geargnasher

03-29-2012, 08:24 PM

I only have one reservation about the valve packing greases, will they stick too well to the boolit? Also, I'm not sure what the "speed rating" is, these seem to be formulated to stay put and resist just about any kind of enviromental assault possible. Not sure that speed rating matters too much really, we exceed the speed rating of most greases several dozen times with typical cast boolit shooting.

Gear

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 08:25 PM

softpoint.
i'm guessing amber colored.
about 1-1/8th inch across,and about 10" long.
the grease gun they go into is an air powered pump.
i have some here,and the moly equivelant which i use in my regular everyday lube.
i have used the amber straight, by applying by hand.
it is what i was writing about in the earlier testing.
it works, but i can see there is gonna be some changes needed.
even chemola shows temperature extreme lubes, one for hot, one for cold.
hopefully our narrower window won't call for that.

Grandpas50AE

03-29-2012, 08:28 PM

bentonite clay hmmm
airc this is either in kitty litter, or is the binder in papers.
it might be used in both.
the kitty litter does soak up oil.

the cotton and reduced jpw with mineral spirits might prove out as an excellent lube cookie.
it might be able to be added into something else but don't think it would do so in anything other than clumps.
paper has binders in it which i think will create the same problems, and papers with titanium dioxide are really abrasive.
a suspension of wood would have to be dry wood pulp but getting it on the boolit would be the obstacle, paper is almost a boolit lube in it's make up. with carriers binders and modifiers.

the modified greases or a tumble coating are the two best solutions i can come up with so far, especially after all the testing i have done.
the ingredients and balances will not be the normal things we are used to.
i don't have an issue with pulverizing kitty litter instead of reducing jpw.

R5R, if you are still wanting to find a way to use a wood-pulp base carrier, give this a thought: RV toilet paper is designed to dissolve and break down quickly in a liquid solution, so it may be easy to dissolve it into melted grease and then let the solution cool where the dissolved paper now becomes a carrier/binder. Not sure what proportions of grease to paper would be necessary, but there are usually no additives or other chemical compounds in RV toilet paper so that it will not clump up while in liquid solution.

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 08:46 PM

http://www.piper-oilfield.com/
thier distributor or one of them anyways.
there seems to be so many makers of the stuff i am working the local backwards.
once i find out what they have [what i can get] then i am gonna research the best option available.
i am thinking that any sort of e.p. is not necessary for the application we have in mind, and might make it harder to modify the base ingredient.
it hopefully will be something we can add to without the chance of burning or ruining the base.
too hard and we might be able to get it to take an oil.
too soft and we will have to add smething to get it right, that may affect the temp effectiveness.
so we need something close right from the start that can be changed with a simple oil/fluid addition.

longbow

03-29-2012, 08:52 PM

Gear:

I have to ask a question here and trust me I am no expert so bear with me.

I haven't read every post so if it has been covered already then my apologies.

I agree with what I am reading about grease with various metallic soaps and such and other additives that may be difficult to deal with or build up in rifle barrels. etc. but what about making your own grease?

Soaps/greases can be made from mineral oils, vegetable oils or animal fats. You use pure oil or fat and caustic or similar. For instance here are some simple grease recipes:

- 4. Ball-Bearing Grease
Ingredient Kgs.
Stearic Acid 20 Paraffin oil, white 180 Lime water 4

- 9. Mixed Base GreaseIngredient Kgs.
Tallow 135.00
Lime water 0.525
Caustic soda 1.500
Water 0.200
Paraffinox oil, pale yellow 84.275

-11. Grease for High Speed Wheels Ingredient Kgs.
Soap 2
Rope oil 2
Water oil 10
Talc 4

- 12. Axle Grease Ingredient Kgs.
Palm oil 7.0
Anthracene oil 11.0
Rosin oil 5.0
Soap 0.5

- 13. Transparent Grease Ingredient Kgs.
Spindle oil 50
Aluminium Stearate 3
Vegetable tallow 2

Alternately, could extra Ivory soap or stearic acid be added to thicken an oil rather than using a grease in lube? I think it is Starmetal that talked about his soap lube and he was reporting high velocities ~ not sure about hot/cold performance though.

Anyway, just a thought about making your own grease or using soap/stearic acid and oil to make a lube without a bunch of other additives. It might even work with a synthetic oil.

My lube has a relatively high soap content and so far I am happy with it but I have to say that I am easily pleased and I have not wrung it out in extreme temperatures or really checked thoroughly for varying group sizes/fliers from cold barrel to hot barrel. Until it fails me I am too lazy to try anything else. However, now that I have a scope on my Lee Enfield I may see errors in group size not due to old eyes.

If you make your own grease, you have total control of what is in it. I have seen some of the old bearing greases that were clear amber and as thick as some boolit lubes. I don't know but I bet they were oil and something like stearic acid. They couldn't have had any solid fillers or additives as they were clear amber.

Just a thought.

Longbow
Longbow

Quigley284

03-29-2012, 08:56 PM

I have to say the willingness to share information this forum is beyond belief. As a professional lurker and a new caster, I have learned so much from all off you. Being able to do the right thing the first time sure makes things easy. Just wanted to send out a big THANK YOU to all the folks that make this forum what it is. Thanks again, Mike

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 09:01 PM

gear the sticky is quite a bit less than say lucas oil additive it has tacky but not the thready high visc tack.
more than say, a lube with lanolin,but less than regular lanolin.
i am trying to figure out how to get some [and how much] white lith into the mix to offset the tack.
the rounds i fired the other day didn't seem to be affected by the tackyness but it might be different in the cold.
i'm okay with that but then the lith will be my bbl coating,fine in the cold,but a titch thin in the hot.
so i gotta be careful here.

softpoint

03-29-2012, 09:06 PM

I went to that link, then I looked at the stuff i have. Could be very similar. This stuff is called Liquid O Ring, #155, from Oil Center Research, of Lafayette, La. :Fire:

softpoint

03-29-2012, 09:17 PM

Run5...

How is Desco Valve Lubricants and Sealants : High Temp : 1055 purchased?

Opti-Lube as per pound pricing and they appear to be based in NM (505 area code). Their website says they'll customize (http://hardgrease.com/) and also ship online orders daily from their Utah warehouse. Granted, their online presence isn't very organized but I don't see that as a problem.

MJ
Most of these places have sales reps come to the various oilfield and fracturing yards here, hence they don't put too much emphasis on websites. i've noticed that with other oilfield suppliers as well.

runfiverun

03-29-2012, 09:24 PM

the paper/cotton thing is a sideline just me looking for a paper patch shortcut.
but also as an answer to lube "alternatives".
ivory soap is mostly a stearate [sodium stearate], it is used to harden [change the viscosity] parrafin/beeswax lubes, and is also a good binder to keep a lube in the carrier.
i was out in the garage till 3 a.m. last night adding ivory to a couple of other things.
it will change the viscosity and add lubricity to some oils [castor,two stroke,and even lucas oil additive]
i think that stearic acid might do a better job mixing in with the oils [lubes] themselves.

and i am beginning to think that there is a big difference between direct heat and the microwave for heating some of this stuff up.

softpoint

03-29-2012, 09:35 PM

There is a difference in direct heat and microwave heat on melting lubes, I've discovered. Idon't know what it is, but I have noticed that even re-melting Felix lube to pour in the sizer. Takes a lot longer it seems in the microwave than stovetop.

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 12:08 AM

"Liquid O-ring" sounds like a good boolit lube!

Longbow, that's an interesting approach, one I'm sort of messing with anyway with soap-based lube. Part of the problem with Ivory soap is that it isn't pure sodium stearate, it has a bunch of other stuff in it we don't want like water and table salt. It also has a very high melt point, around 450F. Pure SS has a melt point closer to 500F. This stuff is tough to melt without scorching, and its melt point is well above the smoke point of most automotive lubricants. Stearic acid, from which sodium stearate is made, has a melt point slightly lower than beeswax, not ideal for what I'm trying to do. Sodium stearate and stearic acid are emusifiers also, capable of absorbing both hydrocarbon oils and water. I don't want the water absorption part. Most regular chassis grease is bad about absorbing water, so it's important to look at the water washout rating when considering grease for boolit lube. Bentonite is also super-absorbent, but when grease is made out of it I've seen very good water-repellent ratings.

R5R, I agree about using straight SS rather than the soap, would probably work better. I messed with stearic acid and all kinds of stuff in the past, it's no good with #2greases and liquid oils for sure.

I have a feeling the hard industrial greases will get us where we're trying to go, especially if we can get a good understanding of what's in a particular formula and how to manipulate the tack or lubricity with compatible substances if we need to.

Gear

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 01:03 AM

well, i can see we are making some progress.
we have moved into using #'s that i didn't know even existed just a short while back.
we are also now debating the make up of what we want.
we still have a way's to go.
we have even come close in what number grease we think is needed, with no surprise that i picked a number lower then gear :lol:
i still don't have a clear picture in my head of the viscosity of each number.
and exactly what would do what [good or bad] in each different recipe.

popper

03-30-2012, 01:09 AM

Ivory (lye soap) creates little micro-bubbles around grease (fats) and water. The micro bubbles stiffen the lube and will leak water easier than the fats. Glycerol type compounds are used to soften the soap. Lanolin was aded to be milder to the skin. Gramma used to make it from fat and wood ashes. I've used amsoil 80 wt axle lube with the 45/45/10, makes it 40/40/10/10, smokes like the dickens. Takes a long time to dry but doesn't get tacky winter or summer. I don't see any more or less leading with it. It's a long chain high presure molecule, like marvel mystery oil of old. Wife has a cousin that made a fortune from designing aircraft lubes and then went into the auto additive market, maybe I can pump him for info.

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 01:38 AM

I think we're making progress for sure. This is one of those things where some research and ejumication are needed as much as 'spearmintin'. I sure appreciate all the input and help. So we're speaking the same language, here's a somewhat objective NLGI consistency number explanation from Wikipedia:

NLGI number...ASTM worked (60 strokes)....Appearance....Consistency food analog.
......................penetration at 25 °C
......................tenths of a millimetre.

000................445-475......................fluid.................... .cooking oil
00..................400-430......................semi-fluid.............applesauce
0....................355-385.....................very soft..............brown mustard
1....................310-340.....................soft.....................t omato paste
2....................265-295...................."normal" grease.....peanut butter
3....................220-250.................... firm.....................vegetable shortening
4....................175-205.....................very firm..............frozen yogurt
5....................130-160.....................hard....................sm ooth pate
6.....................85-115......................very hard.............cheddar cheese

I had to look up "pate". I suppose it's about like Philadelphia cream cheese at room temp.

Gear

largom

03-30-2012, 09:37 AM

Many years back, I had a mobile power wash business. I was always looking for a better & cheaper soap supplier. I bypassed the middle suppliers and contacted the manufactures requesting small samples with MSDS sheets. I offered to pay for the samples but received all free of charge. I received so many samples that I did'nt buy any soap for several weeks.

I am thinking that if one contacted the grease manufacturers and requested samples & MSDS sheets it may speed up this process. However, unless the manufactures think there may be a good market they may not be interested. I would not suggest telling lies but we are boolit manufactures and as such could use a good quanity of material purchased from suppliers.

The purpose of the MSDS sheets is to tell us what is in the grease and if it is harmful to health.

Larry

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 02:48 PM

i know pate, but now i have to go buy some frozen yogurt. :lol:
iv'e thought about playing the sample angle.
i don't know if i could tell them about 20k potential customers though.
but #5 sounds like what i am using now.
it's the modifying it i gotta work on..
and do i do it with white lith,atf,or some type of oil.
if it needed tack i would try lucas oil supplement.
atf sounds the most temp stable right now and would hopefully give me what i want.
it will also help with boolit release.
a 4-1/2 like consistency should flow through a lubrisizer easily. [with a little heat]
it will soften too as it's put under pressure.
so a 5 or 6 will be good.
i don't think i want metal solids, and a low calcium content would maybe be best.

Marlin Junky

03-30-2012, 04:08 PM

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 06:19 PM

Well, my turn for range time finally.

I loaded some for the .30-'06 test mule, 10 with FWFL and 10 with the Ivory/ATF stuff I made. I even hand-lubed the FWFL on these and shoved them through the push-through, same as with the soap-lubed boolits to ensure they were identical.

The first target in the pic is of a 50-yard target I shot the other day with Permatex Ultra disc brake lube, I mentioned this earlier in the thread but didn't post a target. The second pic should have all the vital data on it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094f762eeb4915f.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4631)

Notice the chronograph numbers on the second target. I shot the ten FWFL boolits first out of the cold, clean barrel and got the expected slight flyers, although it usually only flings one, maybe two after a cleaning, then it settled down for a normal sub-1.5 MOA group. This gun, boolit, lube, and shooter are very good at printing 1.25-1.5" ten-shot groups at 100 yards in just about any conditions you'd ever want to hunt in in Texas. Not a target rifle, but a meatgetter for sure. There was zero leading, zero muzzle lube star. I patched out the hot barrel, put a haze of oil on it, and fired the next two with the soap lube. Wow! gained 60 fps! Both went into the same hole! Then the third one flew low and left, and the fourth low and right, way out of the group. I checked the muzzle end of the bore and found some light leading (and some antimony wash). I patched out and most of the wash went away, but some streaks in the middle of the grooves and both sides of the lands remained. I went ahead and shot the remainder of them, and the last three went right back where the first two did, and the leading didn't get any worse although it moves around and I don't like it at all.

This is a perfect example of "lube matters to accuracy" for those who are still wondering why we bother to get so deep into this. Still haven't found an equal to FWFL, even counting the clean-barrel flyers.

Gear

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 06:23 PM

Run5,

Are we still talking about a grade 5 block grease? If it's mostly mineral oil based, why couldn't the viscosity be lowered by cooking it with a little mineral oil? Seems to me though, a grade 5 is just about right and readily available. Am I overlooking something? The product I'm looking at contains 18-22% Lithium 12 Hydrostearate and I'm not sure I like the sound of "Hydro" for carbon steel applications.

MJ

The only problem I have with that block grease is the base oil is a mineral with a huge viscosity swing. If we could get #5 block grease with a synthetic oil base and the lithium complex soap thickener (or even straight lithium stearate), I'd like to be first in line to try it.

OH MY! Look at this stuff: http://www.chemola.com/product-detail.aspx?cid=1&sid=5&i=77

Gear

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 07:30 PM

mj:
mineral oil based suggests parrafinic, the hydro stearate does mean it's waterbased.
there are quite a few greases that contain water.
it is usually less than 0.25% though.

bam, you got it right there
synthetic based and lithium [i like the complex it's a longer chain]
it's simple.
it would be fairly easy to manipulate to the thinner side [with brown lith #2]
if it could be gotten to a viscosity of a number 3 with some heat.

talk about high pressure stuff, that is for packing high pressure pumps.
it goes behind the supply side of a fluid around a spinning shaft to seal it.
but 10k pressure application... man.
to put this into perspective the "j" sticks i am using takes only 3k pressure to pump.
i can however apply it by hand to a boolit.
that synthetic fiber thing has my attention though, that could insure that lube [all the lube] comes off instantly, as long as the viscosity were low enough at the muzzle.
you could just about get away with a boolit thats too small and use the grease as a piston ring.

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 08:01 PM

k. after a little test the lithium might need a rethink.
i wanted to reduce the tack in my j-stick.
and debated the lithium v.s atf for a bit and went with white lithium.
so i broke off a chunk about 4" long and mushed into a taco shape.
i then run a bead of 105 white lith down the middle and kneaded it in, at first i wasn't sure but then it started to toughen back up.
the tacky come back so i added a little more getting up to about 20% by volume.
the lube took it,but the tackyness seemed to increase as did the hardness.
not at all what i expected.
i think i increased the molecular chain.
this grease thing is reminding me more of an alloy than a lube.
we are going to have to start looking at additive percentages.

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 08:30 PM

You gots to be careful when mixing greases with different thickener formulations. I was reading that most of the time when you intermix greases the resulting viscosity and film strength decreases because the thickener/base-oil bond unravels. But this is not always the case, sometimes it gets HARD.

I'm really intriqued by that packing compound, my ears perked up too when I read the part about fibers in the base thickener. The temp range is ridiculous, too. It doesn't appear to have a lower limit. I don't know how you'd get it in the sizer, but once you did, you could shoot medium-pressure .45 ACP, .38, or .45 Colt with boolits probably a thousandth undersized and not have leading. Ballistic stop-leak on steroids. Now, if it would do the rest of the chore we need boolit lube to do, we might have a winner.

Gear

bruce381

03-30-2012, 09:37 PM

You got it!

DuPont makes some interesting synthetic wax that might fit the bill, but you have to buy it by the container load.

Gear

gear PM me and we can talk I can get what ever you want to try.
38 year as a lube formulator I should be able to help but area is industrial and automotve NOT boolit lube but I can get about any additve you want.
bruce

bruce381

03-30-2012, 09:44 PM

bruce381

03-30-2012, 09:47 PM

depending on what the valve compound is used in they are made from vegetable or hydrocarbon or wax bases

bruce381

03-30-2012, 09:49 PM

block grease depending on soap type is just a higher percent of soap thickener as in
a #2 may take 7-10% soap a number 5 may take 20% or 25% soap.

Marlin Junky

03-30-2012, 10:16 PM

The only problem I have with that block grease is the base oil is a mineral with a huge viscosity swing. If we could get #5 block grease with a synthetic oil base and the lithium complex soap thickener (or even straight lithium stearate), I'd like to be first in line to try it.

OH MY! Look at this stuff: http://www.chemola.com/product-detail.aspx?cid=1&sid=5&i=77

Gear

From Chemola's website:

"Pumpable with a high pressure (10,000 psi) lubrication handgun."

It's neither going to melt in my microwave nor flow through my Lyman 450. I suppose I could try it as a pan lube melted on my hot plate. :confused:

MJ

P.S. The problem with it's high melting point is that it'll anneal HT'd Pb alloys; therefore, pan lubing is out as well.

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 10:38 PM

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 10:40 PM

Well Bruce, it may be time for that. What we need here is a real, bona-fide lube engineer, and now that the synth greases look like the direction to go, we could sure use your help.

I might have learned enough now to at least understand some of the basics of grease construction, but not enough to tell what might be best for boolit lube.

Let's try to figure out what we need, then how best to make it. Boolit lube has some unique needs as far as greases go, the speed rating is astronomical but it only has to hold up for a couple of feet and a few microseconds. The rest of the time it needs to be really good at staying put and not bleeding, even at temps of 200 degrees (think cartridge sitting in a hot chamber after a long, rapid-fire string). Even regular lithium auto grease will withstand the pressures involved with shooting cast boolits provided it's captured in a carrier like beeswax.

Could you give is a layman's description of the common thickeners and how they might stack up against the job of being in a boolit lube? I know there's the metal soaps (calcium, lithium, aluminum, etc.), then there's bentone, Teflon, UHMWPE, what have I missed? Inert gelling agents like bentone and the polymer stuff are attractive because they are virtually temperature impervious and it seems like the formulation would be simpler.

I think a grade 5 synthetic base oil would be good for a lubricant, but I don't know what else is out there. Silicones might work too.

If we can't get a hard grease that will melt easily, it can always be pressed into hollow sticks with PVC pipe and all-thread rod.

So back to a thick, synthetic grease, that's all we really need. The question is does it already exist, or do we have to make it from scratch?

Gear

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 11:12 PM

we want hydrocarbon.
so just the soaps are available. [calcium or lithium?]
that could make things much easier as then we could talk specifics.
like so and so's number2 and 15% more lith soap plus x amount of carnuba.

i'm gonna let it sit for a couple of day's before passing judgement.
the tack increased but the string decreased in just 2 hrs.
so we'll see.

I'm hoping all the common gelling agents are available by themselves, I'll bet they arrive at the grease factories in component form, although some compounding might have to be done on site, I get that not all greases are a "just mix it together" process.

Being able to get a common #2 grease and add more gelling agent to adjust the thickness instead of using waxes to "thicken" it!! and then deal with the tack issues if necessary would be a really good way to start experimenting.

What should we start with? How about Mobil 1 tube grease? Add some more thickener and give it a go?

Gear

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 11:13 PM

polymers show promise because they don't shrink or expand.
i don't know about burning but our time, like you say, is very short.
we know it has to be thin enough to fling off the boolit [or stay, all of it]

we gotta start somewhere.

i'd like to know more about adding soaps to say a #1 or #2 and what is involved.
then a poly,or synth,or moly could be modified to the correct visc with a [lith or calcium] soap and other things could first be added because of the lower melt point.

i am positive that a number 4 will flow through a lube sizer as is, and a number 5 should with some heat.
the pressure will make it flow more than most people think.
the melt point is something else though.

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 11:23 PM

Here's the dope on Mobil 1 grease, looks like a simple lithium complex thickener and synthetic base oil, NLGI #2, -40 to 302F and it's widely available. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENGRSMOMobil_1_Synthetic_Grease.aspx

It looks like the base oil does thin considerably at 100C, but that's above the operating range I think we can expect from boolit lubes, and isn't NEARLY as bad as the viscosity changes I've seen listed for the conventional base oils in other greases at the same temperature differential.

So where to get some lithium complex soap?

Gear

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 11:25 PM

does a synthetic #2 have a higher melt point than #2 standard ?
i know that a melt temp of 350 is workable, one of 550 doable too, but things get difficult and losing the bonds gets perilous at that temp.
a melt point and auto ignition could be like 10* apart when you get that high.
tack is going to be unavoidable with synthetic greases, controlling it will be through testing something simple like a mica/silica/moly could reduce that.

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 11:30 PM

Off the top of my head, it isn't the high end that makes the synthetic base oil appealing to my way of thinking, it's the COLD properties that make it more desirable compared to conventional oils. Look at some base oil specs on some common greases, you'll see what I mean. The PAO stuff (like air-conditioning lubricants for R-134a) has some desirable properties as well.

BTW congratulations on that last post bringing you to 9K and another boolit! [smilie=p:

Gear

runfiverun

03-30-2012, 11:37 PM

that mobile-1 looks like it's in the range we want.
i particularly like the -40 rating that is very,very good.
bruce from page #4 says he can get the soaps and such.
he knows greases but not the boolit requirements, we can fill him in on those as we go along.
and he can help with the additions.
i wonder if by raising the visc it will raise the low end temps i can deal with 0 to 100 as shooting temps.
the soaps should be helping us with thier lubricity,lowering the tack on thier own.

didn't even notice the boolit thing

geargnasher

03-30-2012, 11:45 PM

That's the thing with having an extreme base that more than covers the extreme range of shooting conditions that the lube might experience, if we muck it up some with thickener or tack modifier, there's still a wide margin of error.

Gear

runfiverun

03-31-2012, 12:09 AM

like i said an alloy
get it about the same each time and it's un noticeable.
a bhn # or two, woon't alter the outcome.
and the starting base can be switched till we find the swing point between high and low.
[shudder]]]]]]]]]]
sounds simple to me.:lol:

i don't know how we done that, answering each other before we asked.
whomever reads this will need to know some of this was typed and posted at the same time. so the back and forth seems a bit jumbeled.
there was some real time pm's happening also.
and yes we were reading each others minds. :lol:

fcvan

03-31-2012, 01:23 AM

After reading the posts concerning the use of paper pulp suspended within the lube I have become quite intrigued. I've played with making paper by shredding recycled paper in a blender with water. The paper slurry is then strained through a screen and old fashioned paper is the result. I can't help but think that shredding the paper, straining out the excess water, and then adding that pulp to the boolit lube. the remaining water would have to be 'cooked' out but the pulp could be suspended within the lube.

I suppose the lube could be stirred while cooling to keep the pulp suspended until the lube thickens while hardening. That way the the semi-solid lube could then be put into a lube stick mold or placed into the lubrisizer. I'm sure pan lubing could also be accomplished so long as the pulp content was at least as deep as the lube groove. I'm going to have to play with this. Frank

geargnasher

03-31-2012, 01:42 AM

MIght work like you say, pulp it and add it to the melted lube oils/whatever while still wet and cook off the excess water. I played with a small blob of Felix lube and some hand-shredded paper towel fibers, I don't think it will pan-lube, too much drag. I also tried making a paste of just chassis grease and fibers, that might work but not as a pan lube. It looks like it would be no problem to inject into the grooves per a normal sizer, though, the bands and sizer die holes would shear any errant paper fibers.

Gear

bruce381

03-31-2012, 01:33 PM

softpoint

03-31-2012, 02:32 PM

From Chemola's website:

"Pumpable with a high pressure (10,000 psi) lubrication handgun."

It's neither going to melt in my microwave nor flow through my Lyman 450. I suppose I could try it as a pan lube melted on my hot plate. :confused:

MJ

P.S. The problem with it's high melting point is that it'll anneal HT'd Pb alloys; therefore, pan lubing is out as well.

This stuff I have from Louisiana has to have a high pressure gun like that, but it's not as thick as you might think. You could pack it in a lubrisizer by hand, and it would be soft. You are right about melting this stuff, though, I think it will stand 550f before it drops

softpoint

03-31-2012, 02:36 PM

if someone would like this tube of Liquid O Ring to analyze and maybe mix into something else, PM me, and I will ship it to you.

bruce381

03-31-2012, 02:37 PM

Ok How about this

I do not why cold barrels throw first couple shots unless it has to due with heat and the perhaps melting or release of oils in the lube not being "oily" enough when cold.

For a NON melting with minimal softeneing as a thickener use bentone or Silica or ploy urea. Only option for me is Silica and the bentone. Lithium Complex as well as the other metals all have melt or drop points of 500-550F where the non melters will just cook but not melt or RELEASE any of the base fluids, they just "dry out".

Some of the simple lime soap "block" greases are sodium based soaps made with oil fatty oil / acid is cooked and the the acid is reacted with alkali (sodium hydroxide, Draino) mixed in water when fully reacted and the water is boiled back out the cooled grease forma gel structure and this trype can be made at home but sodium grease mixes with water and has a low melt point 300F or so.

May end up with more thickener or gellant than base fluid to get disired consistancey.

For a base oil or a fluid to get the right amount of body and stickiness without a lot of THINNING as it gets hot you need a High VI try Poly isobutene (PIB) VI about 100 or a high vis Poly alpha olefin (PAO) VI about 140 or best a Poly Glycol (PAG) VI about 240.

For a non rusting or staining Friction modifier that has good HIGH VI to resist thinng try
Polyol esters (POE) maybe as the base fluid too. Also maybe PEG esters or carbo waxs but they have low melt point 50-60C.

Tackifiers, rust inhibitors, anti oxidants, copper corrosion inhibitors etc can be added at small amounts <1% to about any formula to tie up loose ends.

bruce

runfiverun

03-31-2012, 02:42 PM

yeah there was some wide swings in what was being looked at.
we are trying to narrow down what will and what won't work as far as a base and a lube.
it seems we want.

a synthetic grease.
a way to modify it's viscosity.
it has to be flung off the boolit at the muzzle.
it needs to be temp/viscous stable from 0 to 100
leave a very thin coating in the bbl that doesn't shrink or build up.

i know.
we aren't asking a lot.
but you got a mechanic and a redneck working on it, and there isn't a lot of reference material at the local library.

runfiverun

03-31-2012, 03:04 PM

bruce can you break down what the numbers mean for the base oil.
i can pick stuff out of your list that i think will work based on a conventional lubes needs.

we theorize the first shot is because the bore condition changes in between uses.
the lube or coating in the bbl is cracking [drying and shrinking] or thickening and we are reconditioning it with the first shot or two.

Marlin Junky

03-31-2012, 05:08 PM

I'll test anything the lube specialists come up with. I've got a few <1MOA loads for my '06 that start to open up at 1900 fps with BAC. I've also got a couple 350 and 444 loads that shoot nearly as well. Just let me know where to send the money.

MJ

runfiverun

03-31-2012, 05:46 PM

http://www.chemola.com/product-detail.aspx?cid=1&sid=3&i=13
finally found it.
this is the exact stuff i am using.
it surprisingly is a #2 as it is a malleable solid, far more so than a #2 chassis grease.
so the glycols [2% airc] are thickening this up?
the dry up you talked about is something this does when heated in he microwave.
it does flow through the lubrisizer with no heat and low air pressure.
if this is a solid #2 a #3 would most likely be a better option in this same type.?

geargnasher

03-31-2012, 11:28 PM

LOL after reading a few pages here you guys are all over as far as lubes go with so many questions It would take years to splan it all.

With wild guess as to lets mix this or that to make this or that. Im all for testing out stuff but keep it simple and start with 1 or 2 ideas.

Just cause pig fat works for boolit lube it is not an answer for all applications.

1 Define the application
2 then 4-5 properties that the lube needs.
maybe start with known product like LARS RED or the felix lube and go from there

Then i will can round up some test samples of thickeners and additves.

Gear i will get what additves and thickeners you want to try just go slow and ask 1 or 2 questions at a time because some questions asked here will take a book to answer.
Gear I will send a box of stuff next week to keep you busy.

bruce

I'm both a first-class Redneck and a mechanic, so that might 'splain a few things for y'all. I do have all 32 of my teeth, though, and they're straight, and I don't drink much beer or have any dogs, but the rest of the Foxworthy jokes more or less apply. "If you try to lubricate your bullets with the stuff your sister dug out of her dog's ear, you might be a Redneck."

I do appreciate the access to some real compounding stuff, Bruce, I'll see what I can come up with.

I also outlined, in the opening post of this thread, some basic properties of lube as I understand it, and I think I have most of it covered even if I don't understand it very well:

[snip] So, from cartridge case to target a lube must seal the bore like engine oil seals compression in a reciprocating engine, it must provide a consistent runway surface (for consistent friction), and it must either remain in the grooves all the way to the target or leave the boolit immediately and completely upon muzzle exit once its job in the barrel is completed so it doesn't affect the balance of the boolit on the free path to the target.

In order to do this, a boolit lube must:
1. Have the correct viscosity to match the pressure sealing requirements of a given load and alloy,
2. Have the correct amount of "drag" each shot, which may be a factor of both viscosity and lubricity,
3. Have the correct lubricity to maintain consistent bore surface,
4 Maintain the correct viscosity and lubricity through temperature extremes of both atmosphere, chamber, and barrel,
5. Have enough tack to stick to a boolit during handling, storage, and loading,
6. Not have so much tack that it only partially jettisons in flight.
7. Some other things that strike me as important are the ability of a lube to be left in a barrel without danger of corrosion, no "weeping" of oils in the heat to contaminate powder, no bad reaction with the cartridge brass during long-term storage, immunity to humidity, and compatibility with standard lube application equipment.
[snip].

After much cogitation and discussion, I think R5R has condensed it pretty well:

>The lube has to be something like a grease or putty in consistency.
>It must have a component that leaves a consistent film of "lube" in the barrel from zero to 110F.
>It must not contaminate powder, or leak oils up to (say) 250F
>it must not dry out in temps from -20 to 250F
>It must be adhesive enough to stay on the boolit until it's loaded, yet not so much that it survives the forces of decompression on muzzle exit and the "centrifugal" force of the boolit's spin.
>It must "wet" the bore steel the same way every shot, and leave a film behind that is stable for many days or weeks such that the interaction of the boolit/bore on the next shot will be the same as the last
>The biggest issue I can see right now is not knowing what the base oil viscosity must be, but the tips on the different oil types and VI's is a big help.

Me trying to figure this out is kind of like a pharmacist trying to find a cure for cancer with the drugs he already has on his shelves.

Gear

btroj

03-31-2012, 11:35 PM

geargnasher

03-31-2012, 11:51 PM

I forgot to mention, I think we know the limiting factors with Felix lube and Carnauba Red, it's the waxes that are used for thickeners/carriers. Beeswax is the best carrier common lubes have, it can be used to make a lube that works to -20F or 110F, but so far not both in one formula. Let's compare Speed Green to Felix Lube, because I know what's in them. Glenn puts something like seven different waxes in Carnauba Red, so it's tough to talk about that. Speed Green just has a very low-viscosity, synthetic lubricant added to the beeswax in about a 1:3 proportion. It works pretty well in the heat, too, but it just hasn't held up to the same hot-weather accuracy standards as Felix lube. Felix lube uses a small amount of polymerized castor oil and mineral oil as lubricants, together with a touch of lanolin for tack and pliability. Carnauba wax is extra, and detracts from it's cold-weather performance. There's also a small amount of sodium stearate to help keep the ingredients from separating as the liquid lube cools, and helps "bind the whole mess together" as Felix puts it. I don't know what the limiting factor really is with Felix lube, but I think the castor oil gets too "thick" in really cold weather and affects the lube "film" in the barrel. I'd stick my neck out to say that below 40 degrees I think Speed Green might have an edge over the Felix, but I haven't really shot either side by side in enough different guns to make a definite claim.

Now for another SWAG at it, I wonder how ISO 100 automotive air-conditioning oil would work mixed with beeswax, of better yet, fumed silica?

Gear

Gear

runfiverun

03-31-2012, 11:54 PM

the biggest obstacle will be the viscosity,and the oil in the bbl.
i am still confused by my sticks being a #2 and chassis grease being a #2.
unless that's just a base designation.

but i now have a good idea of the base, and the thickener [binder?]
it's now what is the best lube, and modifier.
yeah that's how i think of it still.

i am also wondering about being able to fit stuff like castor oil and carnuba into the equasion.
even reading msds sheets is not giving up the necessary information.
it's like all the company's want you to design a lube and they sell you something.
i come close to filling out one of thier sheets with the above specifications and drop in 180,000 rpm ,2700 fps,and 55k of pressure.
just to see if i got a response.

357maximum

04-01-2012, 12:01 AM

I really like where this is heading....fairly rapidly too.[smilie=w:

I have beat the proverbial microwax/wax/beeswax/grease/oil thing to death and back. The answer does not lie there IMHO. I could only get one or the other regarding cold/hot lube.

I have used the extreme HP gas valve greases back when I was on gas distribution. Some of them may work but I no longer have access to them to test. Most of the ones I handled were used to slow or stop a leaking gas valve until "real" repairs could be made. My lyman 45 lubesizers would likely balk at applying them....in fact I am pretty sure of it.

Personally I feel that the suspended microsized paper particle idea has more merit and a better chance of overall success for the home lubecook. The right chemist/lube engineer could prove me wrong.....I wish he would.

keep digging....we are listening.:popcorn:

geargnasher

04-01-2012, 12:02 AM

Sure, a pharmacist joke froma redneck mechanic. Thanks Gear.

I find this an interesting discussion. I have no knowledge on grease at all so I am in over my head. I would be quite willing to test any formula that comes along.

I can also say that a viable lube must be made from reasonably accesavle ingredients and be relatively easy to make. Complex ingredients or recipes tend to be the bane of the kitchen chemist. Well, outside of meth labs.

:bigsmyl2: I didn't want you to feel left out.

Complex ingredient lists and cooking instructions are the bane of meth labs, too, ask anyone from Missouri!

As soon as the smoke clears and R5R or I come up with something we think might work, we'll be heeding a bunch of second opinions, you're definetely on the short list in my mind, thanks for the offer.

Gear

geargnasher

04-01-2012, 12:18 AM

Michael, I'm not ruling anything out yet, but I agree the conventional wax+oil/grease is mature technology.

Paper can handle the speed, will stop leaks, and fling off, the question is, how to mix paper fibers with something to make it stick in the grooves. Just one more thing to think about.

Gear

runfiverun

04-01-2012, 12:33 AM

making the paper lube would be easy enough i cannot figure out how to get it to apply to the boolit so that it will do any better than a standard size/wrap/lube/size, patch.
i can wrap, i swage jacketed stuff too.

this is something completely different.
we might not find perfection, i am realistic about that.
if we can find something that works better than the "j" lube i have now.
we will be oh-so-close.
that would be an improvement over conventional lubes.
and once enough people start to use something, further improvements will be made.
it's just the way we casters are.

geargnasher

04-01-2012, 12:54 AM

The paper fiber thing was some of my earlier musings on finding stable oil carriers other than waxes, not so much a shortcut to a paper jacket. I know Metamucil doesn't work, though! Nothing we can put in the grooves will come close to a real jacket except for maybe powder-coat paint.

I think you're on to something with that thick grease. If the guys at Voodoo can make it work, so can we.

Gear

357maximum

04-01-2012, 01:50 AM

If a tuuupid yellerjacket can make paper with his mouth........I am pretty sure we could find a way to make paper congeal enough for our use. :veryconfu

I had thought about the paper pulp thing alot a few years ago I just never pursued it. Quite honestly when it hits anything over 85-90 degrees with our humidity I ain't doing much shooting. You will fine me in front of some form of machine with a big ol snowflake button on it. [smilie=s: How you all handle that 100 degree plus stuff is beyond me meager mind....yall is crazy I say. :shock:

BulletFactory

04-01-2012, 02:11 AM

they already have this any temperature, any gun any velocity lube. Its called

COPPER

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/hide.gif

....

BulletFactory

04-01-2012, 02:39 AM

just a thought on paper, you could try to clamp it in a vice, a book at a time, leaving a quarter inch above the jaws and grind it with a belt sander. When thats ground down, raise it another 1/4" and repeat. You'll probably wind up with a paper powder. Not sure, but it seems like it might be worth a shot.

runfiverun

04-01-2012, 03:33 AM

see that's the kind of thinking that got us [between the two threads 200 posts.] to this point.
and has given some ideas that would not have even been thought of.

probably a few people shaking thier heads at these two nut jobs too.

i have enough stuff on hand here to make something like 40 lbs of good quality lube that would cover probably 90% of my needs forever.
but...

with the help from bruce, with his knowledge some parameters and some shooting this can be done.
at the least i think we have identified why we have issues with the first shot,and over long strings of shots.
and will gain more knowledge of conventional lubes in the process too.
it has taken me a long time to get my moly lube set up to work properly and then along come cold weather, and i have to fix it, it's a good lube but not perfect.
heck we don't need perfect we just need a wider window.

btroj

04-01-2012, 07:54 AM

Yes, a wider window. I could live with cold arrel flyers below 20 as I shoot very little when it is that cold. It is the issues at 40 that irritate me. That eliminates a few months of potential shooting for me.
The various knowledge bases we have on this site amazes me. Then along comes a guy who may well have precisely the right knowledge at the right time?

On the paper pulp idea. Would a pulp lube need to be on the bands of the bullet or do you think it could work as well being in the grease grooves only? I just wonder ifmit almost needs to be more like a tumble lube to give full coverage to bearing surfaces like a paper patch does. Just wondering.

Armorer

04-01-2012, 10:47 AM

As far as the paper pulp needing a binder, what about something like guargum? I have used it to bind wood dust/pulp for making handmade incense. It is also quite sticky when wet. Not sure if it would be too hard when dry though and may crumble from the lube groove. Just a thought.

runfiverun

04-01-2012, 02:06 PM

guar gum forms a paper/plastic like substance when it dries.
it's benefits would be in the lube.
i think that a paper saturated in oils/lube stuff would work fine in the lube grooves.

geargnasher

04-01-2012, 02:10 PM

"Fiber-reinforced grease" was my operating concept for the paper-pulp lube. I wanted to try the really fine dust from the collector on my random DA orbital sander, but I worry about stray grit particles from the sandpaper.

Gear

BulletFactory

04-01-2012, 03:04 PM

you could sort that out of it by bathing the pulp, the grit will sink.

Marlin Junky

04-01-2012, 03:14 PM

I don't understand why you guys are considering paper fiber. The paper jacket works because the two metals (Pb & steel) are prevented from contacting each other along the major bearing surface. If you can get the paper fiber down to a size that will flow around tiny crevasses in the boolit/barrel seal, why not just use colloidal graphite which is a proven lubricant.

MJ

shooter93

04-01-2012, 07:33 PM

Has anyone experimented with lubes divided into 2 categories....all polar and all non polar ingredients and not mixing the two? Or has anyone used synthetic spermaceti to any extent as an ingredient? Charlie Dell at one time suggested to us that he thought it could have real possibilities but I never took it very far and I mostly looked towards all polar ingredients for several reasons and thought more in terms of "slider" greases and oils as opposed to high pressure ones? Or possibly Castor wax as a base or an addition to bees wax?

runfiverun

04-01-2012, 08:58 PM

scott:
the castor wax was one me and gear discussed at length, but as a replacement to beeswax,
then went to the whole synthetic side.
the last link i posted is a full synthetic i have used a couple of times that is showing promise, and there will be more to follow.
we are gathering some better materials to work with.

the paper thing is just that, a thing.
it's like pulping it and punching out cups then sliding them over the boolit and squeezing the whole thing together then letting it dry idea i have had.
but no real equipment to work with or the desire to really to follow up on it.

just like the copper coated stuff, i have enough of those laying around to wear out a couple of bbls in 4-5 calibers, but why bother.

i wanna push the boundarys with the plain ole boolit.
the synth speramcetti i take to be an atf like fluid.

Elkins45

04-01-2012, 11:19 PM

So why not paper dust (very short fibers) saturated with a low viscosity grease and blended to a consistancy that still flows thru a sizer?

Next question: how to make the paper dust consistently and in sufficient quantities?

runfiverun

04-02-2012, 01:17 AM

paper can be an abrasive depending on what is used to make it and how white it is.
not all papers are quite equal in thier wood content either.
using paper to thicken up an oil or grease could work, mixing it into suspension could be done the same way i mix my moly into the carrier mix.
too short and you then end up with a suspension and no benefits except as a filler.
controlling the size of the fibers would be crucial, too long and the lube chunks off unevenly.

paper patching works because the paper protects the lead core from the bbl, it is then ripped to confetti at the muzzle sending the lead core on it's way.
for smokeless applications the core is large enough to grab the rifling,and the paper is still lubed.

other than having not tried it.
i can't see any reason it wouldn't work. with a proper selection of grease as a lube, you could use paper as a binder.
will it work in a broad temperature range [dunno]
i know guar comes in a pretty consistent length, you have to control whether it is straight and relaxed or balled up with ph while it is in a liquid.

geargnasher

04-02-2012, 02:33 AM

I've been studying this to the point it's getting screwy in my head. Looks like there's more than one grade of fumed silica, and like I found out a couple of years ago, it can be a mild abrasive and is used in toothpaste as well as milkshakes. Having trouble now finding the article I read on it being used in EP grease as a thickener. I'm also starting to lean away from the PAO synthetic lube and more toward PAG lubes, although I think the PAG might be more susceptable to water absorption. I used a lot of PAG blends in automotive AC systems and it's good stuff. ISO 100 PAG refrigerant oil is about the same apparent viscosity at 0F as it is at 150F, all it needs is a compatible thickener and it could be tried. Still thinking about beeswax and PAG since I mentioned it a few posts back, mainly because I'm not so sure that beeswax is the limiting factor.

Some lubes with beeswax carriers are good to -20F and lower, and also work in 110+ weather in other formulas that don't seem to have a barrel temperature limit to their performance. It seems that the stuff we put IN the beeswax to make it slick has the narrow temp range that affects the barrel condition and overall viscosity of the ju-ju.

I'm going to try the stuff that Bruce is sending, I know the fumed silica they use is for lubricants and therefor couldn't be abrasive if mixed with the right oil, and the PAOs are really good lubricants too, only some real testing will tell for certain. I plan to try fumed silica and both PAO oil and PAG oil to see if I can make a decent paste, and the "wetting" agents might help too.

Bruce, is that wetting additive compatible with PAG-type oils, or is it formulated just for PAOs?

Gear

runfiverun

04-02-2012, 01:31 PM

well with beeswax being mostly alcohols it carries a broad range of oils and modifiers.
when i add lanolin to the mix to make it more flexible it lowers the melt point also.

i have been working on the use of carnuba with the grease and just what it's role would be in my head.
is it there to provide body to the lube, shine to the bbl,or as a binder because of it's fat content.
more than likely it's there to make the bbls shine and give the "look at it" factor.

i would think that even a fumed silica would be less abrasive than paper especially one with a higher clay/titanum content.
the silica is in a grease for the shock loads [pressure] i don't think we need to worry about heat as much as gas cutting.
i doubt the silica will be affected by that so much, the rest will act as a heat sink of sorts flowing and suspending the silica.
i am still looking at this as a seal,and the oil as a bore conditioner.

shooter93

04-02-2012, 07:01 PM

Lamar....are your synthetics organic based? I think I can get the temp range ok but how it really works out as a lube rmains to be seen yet. I actually don't think there is a wonder lube possible atleast not yet....to many varibles to cover ranging anywhere from bullet fit to barrel length. I do think it may be possible to make an "adjustable" formula that is realatively easy to adjust the quanity of one ingredient or another to cover the varibles.

geargnasher

04-02-2012, 07:35 PM

Shooter93, you're sure right about being able to make something that does the whole temp range and still not shoot. As far as "adjustable" formulas, R5R and I have posted numerous times the formulas we use to cover the whole temp spectrum, we have it down pretty much to one formula with one or two slight tweaks for winter or summer. His lube is very complex, I just use Felix lube with some slight modifications. They both work very, very well but don't cover the whole gamut without adjustment. I think the desire to have one think in the sizer for all applications, year-round, and not have to store two varieties of loaded ammunition is driving this quest the most. That and you can't leave Redneck boolit casters unsupervised with the internet and a shop full of odd automotive and industrial chemicals and not expect minds to wander....

Gear

runfiverun

04-02-2012, 09:39 PM

i can adjust now.
but like gear said, i think we can broaden the window some and not have to make the changes from winter to summer.
the stuff i am using is ready made, with a hydrocarbon base and glycol solids.
but it is one of the lubes that goes dry when heated [to 450 or so] instead of melting.
i have just started testing it in the rifle,but it works as a boolit lube, how far up and down is to be seen yet.
this home made stuff we will be doing shortly will have to be at least as good.
i am hoping to be able to modify a full synthetic at some point from some ordered stuff and off the shelf grease.

bruce381

04-03-2012, 12:11 AM

I will send you guys the powdered gellants and then mix into whatever base (syn, mineral, felix lube whatever) want, they will gell more the more you heat them or 'shear" them that increses the gelling effect.

will try to send in a day or so.

geargnasher

04-03-2012, 01:09 AM

Bruce, you're a gentleman and a scholar, thank you very much for your help and input.

One question keeps burning in my mind and I can't seem to find the answer: What's going to happen to the silicate thickeners when subjected to 50Kpsi and 3500F for an instant? This has me thinking the bentone gellants would be better, but I really don't know if my worries about the stability of the silica thickeners are well-founded.

It would be just too dang easy to mix fumed silica and PAG oil together for a lube, no worries about zinc and sulfur compounds and other additives breaking down and forming acids in the presence of the powder combustion byproducts.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-03-2012, 11:44 AM

bruce381,

Would your powdered gellants thicken a grade 2 Lithium Complex grease similar to Mobil 1 Synthetic and if so, how would one combine the gellants with the grease? Currently, I'm using said grease (it's actually a Wally-World knock off) in my wax based boolit lube; however, it needs to dissolved in Vaseline before I can easily blend it into the wax.

MJ

bruce381

04-03-2012, 05:44 PM

other than the clay (bentone) and silica and simple Al sterate all other thickeners are made in situ as in in the reactor blend tank they are not really avalible as a thickener only that you add oil there maybe but I do not know of any.

The thickeners I have are mixed into the "base" oil and then highly sheared to fully activtate the gelling effect as such 5-7% will take a 10wt motor oil to a #2 chasis grade grease BUT the shearing mixing is a problem to do in small samples.

bruce

Marlin Junky

04-05-2012, 03:50 PM

Just wanted to say thank you and I hope interest in this subject doesn't fizzle out. I'm running low on boolit lube but would like to see which direction this takes before I purchase a 10# slab of BW-431 (http://www.shopblendedwaxes.com/180F-White-Microcrystalline-Wax.html).

MJ

badgeredd

04-05-2012, 04:43 PM

Have any of you guys tried the grease (?) stick from the railroad know as Cooling Compound or hot box lube?

Edd

geargnasher

04-05-2012, 04:51 PM

MJ, the Mobil 1 has a lithium complex thickener system, and like Bruce said you can't readily just get the stuff and add more to the grease on your kitchen stove. Also, my understanding is that Bentone is not compatible with any other thickener, and that lithium complex and silicates might not get along either, although they'd probably get along better in grease than a calcium or aluminum stearate thickener would. You have to be careful blending greases, usually the non-compatible soaps react with each other and break down, making a thinner grease, but sometimes, as R5R found out, they thicken up and get crumbly.

This isn't dying by a long shot, lots going on behind-the-scenes, and a lot of the direction of the testing will depend on what concoctions R5R and I are able to come up with using some of the samples Bruce381 was kind enough to ship out a day or two ago.

If I come up with something that I like, I'm going to ask a few of you to try some if you like in known-good loads, just changing the lube. It would be nice to have someone in AK or somewhere it's still cold to do some tests before winter, I think I have the hot part covered for the next few months! Hopefully by next spring we'll at least know a lot more about what DOESN'T work if nothing else.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-05-2012, 04:53 PM

Have any of you guys tried the grease (?) stick from the railroad know as Cooling Compound or hot box lube?

Edd

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=104349

MJ

geargnasher

04-05-2012, 04:54 PM

EDD, they use block grease on the steam railroads, it's like an 8+ on the NLGI scale, hard as a rock and made from vegetable oils and sodium hydroxide. It's essentially lye soap. You can make it yourself quite easily, and make it as soft or hard as you want, but I don't think it's going to get us where we want lube-wise.

Good call MJ, you posted while I was typing. Your memory is obviously better than mine anyway!

Gear

runfiverun

04-05-2012, 05:16 PM

mj
that link you posted [i believe] is the wax 357 uses for his mml lube.
you can make a pretty decent lube from it though.
my o.d. slippery lube. [ icall it that because it either comes out o.d green or o.d brown depending on what candle color i use [blue makes green, and the tan ones make o.d. brown]
take a scented candle 20-oz [remove 6 oz's from the jar]
6 rounded table spoons of jpw [reduce to 3] and three table spoons [flat spoonfulls] of finely grated ivory [dry is best]
and two tablespoons full of lucas oil treatment [plasticizer]
throw the soap,and lucas, in the jpw and reduce it down slowly in the wave [go about 1 minute at a time and stir in between]
melt the candle [minus 4 oz's] with 4 oz's of beeswax [the beeswax can be upped or lowered]
then stir the whole thing while melted [i use a hand blender].
let it cool and rest for a couple of days, then check it's viscosity.
this has worked well in the colder weather, but i have only tested it up to 65* so far.
and you can store it in the jar with the lid on.
except for the part you took out i save that for later [3 runs gives me enough to make another batch from.
i use it as a dip lube, but i'd bet it makes a nice pan lube too.
it's a bit soft when fresh but gains a little bit of hardness after a couple of days, it stays in the lube grooves well and is flung off at the muzzle.

Marlin Junky

04-05-2012, 07:29 PM

r5r,

I don't want to take this thread in another direction because it is too important; however, Mike introduced me to Blended Waxes but I think he uses one of the softer blends and also adds other waxes to MML... I'll check the recipe to be sure. Nevertheless, I live in the desert and appreciate a little higher melt temp while don't mind having a couple formulae around for various ambient conditions... as long as they are visibly distinguishable.

Thank you for the recipe...

MJ

The JPW is used strictly for it's Carnauba content, correct?... please PM answer.

badgeredd

04-05-2012, 08:32 PM

The reason I asked if any of had used it is I have and I have a small supply. Since you've mention block grease I was wondering if anyone had thought about what the stuff is made of. My dad was a car repairman on the NYCRR and as a kid I used to go with him on many road trips. There were 2 different brands he used, one was a Phillips 66 or Union 76 product and the other was from Texaco. They were not the same stuff. If memory serves me the one from Texaco was a bit softer and he preferred it because it worked well regardless of the ambient temperature. Just a thought...

Edd

BTW... this stuff was used well into the late sixties...I was a fireman on diesel engines in 66 to 68...

bruce381

04-05-2012, 09:15 PM

2 boxes sent today to fool with to gear and run5run.
I put some notes in the box how about this:

add some silica or bentone thickener to whatever lube and let the high speed shearing of the boolit down the barrel thicken the grease film left on the barrel?
hurts your head huh LOL.
bruce

Marlin Junky

04-05-2012, 09:38 PM

runfiverun

04-05-2012, 10:11 PM

shearing [in this case i believe] is refering to incorporating air in the mix raising the viscosity,
because of the stringy tackyness.
i would rather have the reverse happen.
i have some ideas how to combat this [the poe] should help too.
this should help with loads that have high muzzle pressure though.

geargnasher

04-05-2012, 10:30 PM

Yeah. Try to get THAT to happen the same way every shot! :veryconfu

Gear

runfiverun

04-06-2012, 12:01 AM

less lube.
we'll have to run it on the edge.
fudge the lube to the wet side, and use less.
this might be where the carnuba comes in.
a lot of my molds are single lube groove, but there is the g/c area.
and sometimes that is all that's needed.
the thickening isn't all bad it would be somewhat self repairing.
and if it wants to stay on the boolit i got no problems with that whatsoever.

shooter93

04-06-2012, 07:40 PM

I believe that's correct Lamar. With available products/concoctions I think over lubing is very common. A lube purge if you will. With perfect fitting bullets bench shooters are shooting quite fast with only the area above the gascheck lubed. VooDoo lube is one particular lube that's working well much like the old Gray's lube. Another problem with a wonder or universal lube....how much for what bullet in what barrel length....lol. Lubricity with minimal build up makes sense to me.

geargnasher

04-06-2012, 09:13 PM

I really can't convince myself that a lube really is "used up" each shot. I think what's happening in good circumstances (i.e. no gas leaks) is that the lube pressurizes and just kind of floats in the grooves as the boolit goes down the bore, and that the surface of the lube ring slides against the microscopic film of lube/powder residue from the last shot. Any significant accumulation of lube from each shot should be wiped out by the next ahead of the boolit and a fresh film left behind. If too much is left, like Shooter93 said, it will make purge flyers every few shots. I've eliminated purge flyers more than once by dropping back on the number of grooves lubed, learned that here from the brains on the site before I even joined up and that remains one of the most valuble things I've come across for accurate rifle shooting.

The VooDoo lube does intrigue me greatly, I believe they have struck upon something similar to what we're trying to do here: A thick, synthetic grease base with a few modifiers thrown in to tune it for use as a boolit lube, particularly the "friction modifier" they use, which is probably a wetting agent like Bruce381 has told us about. That's probably the key to success with the lube, conquering the all-important "bore condition" monster that causes us so many headaches with our first-shot flyers when working up hunting loads. I still don't know what to think about the "anti-seize" stuff they're putting in it, not sure if it really works as such or if it fills micro-pits/machine marks in the barrel, or aids as a stop-leak, or all of the above, might have to experiment with some at some point in my lubes. Might also have to buy some VooDoo lube and try it out.

Gear

runfiverun

04-07-2012, 12:36 AM

my goal isn't to mimic a known lube.
i'm after a consistent viscosity in a 100* temp window.
this in turn should remain consistent in the bbl alleviating other issues.
i did have a chat with our local distributor again today.
and had to explain block grease to him.
i gave him a basic idea of hardeners and stuff.
he'll get back to me.

bruce381

04-07-2012, 08:52 PM

silica and bentone gellants activate when sheared IE the particle gets ground down by slidding against each other particle and the steel, the more it is ground down the more it gels the base fluid. same as in a barrel as a boolti sliding doen a bore with the grease lube in between.

runfiverun

04-11-2012, 12:16 PM

allright.
i put some of the box to use last night.

5% aluminum stearate [109 grns] weight
5% of the binding wax [102 grns] weight
1% of the cab-o-sil [20 grns] weight
1-1/2 tbs of the breox 1000 oil- volume
1-1/2 oz's of the micro wax- weight
in 5 oz's of white lithium grease [lubriplate assembly lube] weight

blended forever [over a half hour]
decided to add some to beeswax.
so i added 3/4 oz of the mix to 2 oz's melted bees wax
stirred that, re-melted, and stirred that into a nice playdough like consistency.
let it sit over night.
it does thicken up at rest, so be careful of what you think the mix is doing and want to add more gellants.
this morning the wax and lube are quite a bit harder.
not as solid as bees wax alone but stiffer than i like [it would still flow through a lubesizer]
a 50-50 ish mix would most likely be better.
it has good tackyness though and the b-wax is more like a component of the mix rather than a carrier.
i think i will re-melt it again and add another 1/2 oz of the mix to the b-wax.

the gelled grease also come up on the visc.
in 8 hours it went from a whipped egg white consistency to a thick frosting that forms nice peaks.

i still need something in the mix for a bore whetter though, i can feel it's missing in the base/mixed lube.

geargnasher

04-11-2012, 01:34 PM

I think the lithium and aluminum stearates are reacting with each other and changing the viscosity.

Still waiting on UPS, I think they forgot where I live!

Gear

bruce381

04-11-2012, 03:10 PM

I tryed about 1/4 HTO and 3/4 micro wax and that looked workable to me. also HTO and breox looked good and very high Vi or softneing when hot, gear box is out there somwhere maybe I can look up tracking number

bruce381

04-11-2012, 03:16 PM

Gear box is out for delivery today,ou must live in the sticks LOL.

popper

04-11-2012, 05:31 PM

Reading some lube research yesterday, seems like a Al/Mg/Si lube is really good, 80k psi, temp stable. PTFE is only 5k psi. Haven't found any info on how to use it. Supposed to be as good or better than molydisulfide but doesn't break down with high heat and become abrasive like moly.

geargnasher

04-11-2012, 05:40 PM

Gear box is out for delivery today,ou must live in the sticks LOL.

I do, but not far enough from my neighbors! Thanks for checking.

Gear

runfiverun

04-11-2012, 06:21 PM

bruce.
that was my next step.
micro wax and hto with some pao oil.
i wasn't gonna go quite that high with the hto.
but it looks like maybe i need to, to increase the visc.
i have to look at the cold side too.

upping the mix to b-wax ratio worked very nicely it is now the same consistency as my winter moly lube.
it flows through the lubesizer at 65* f room temp with about 50 psi air pressure.
i can add more of the mix to the b-wax to fine tune the temp window.
i have some boolits lubed up and brass being readied, so we'll see the intial shooting soon.

gotta go wash some grease out of my hair now..:lol:.....don't ask.

geargnasher

04-11-2012, 07:27 PM

Alright! Got your box o'goodies, Bruce, thanks. I read through the literature and I think I understand what I have, the HTO is the most interesting of all, basically "synthetic lard". I wonder how it would work in a black powder lube with beeswax and canola oil? I'll bet it would make one heck of a case lube additive as well, being that it's intended purpose is improving the lubricity of oil or oil emulsions for metal drawing purposes.

Thinking out loud some more, I'm also wondering how the non-compressible gellants like bentone and silica would work with the extrememly flexible fiber-matrix base that Lithium complex has. I noticed in some of my reading that the inert thickeners make a more "solid" grease whereas the soaps are more springy. Also, the intert thickeners can let go of the oils under extreme pressure or acceleration, like when a boolit is fired from a gun. It seems the inertia of the thickeners can physically separate from the base oils under these forces (I keep thinking of a centrifuge), which could be good for our boolit lube or bad, not sure either way.

Time for more 'spearmentin'.

Gear

runfiverun

04-12-2012, 12:54 AM

i was thinking of the long chain hto more as a binder much like mono ethyleny glycol [MEG],or poly ethylene glycol [PEG] is used.
anyway, you can see where i was going with the above mix.

not really sure what to expect from everything i went kind of conservative and worked up.
i have seen guar gel instantly to three minutes,break and re-gel even stronger.
i couldn't find any of my ph testing stuff, i wanted to see if the ph would make a difference in the gelling or if there was a change as it gelled.

a continous release of oil would be good as long as there isn't too much of it available.

i can't wait to see what you do decide to finally make.

bruce381

04-12-2012, 01:17 AM

I do not know how thease will work just stuff I had that coverd thick to thin, Soaps are stringy solids are not so much but how much slip or sealing they have is a question try all together or one at time in just beeswax, bye the way i have half a drum of the micro wax that I can maybe donate if it worked out also the base oils I have all the time.

Run, I do not think pH will make a dif in gelling with the solids (silica and bentone) as you can read it takes high shear to gell oils with them so maybe not worth a test or maybe the sliding in a barrel will gel?

Also as far ar cold barrle flyers vs warm could it be that cold the old lube is NOT wetting or letting lube out to lube the barrel till it warms/melts?

The HTO has very good high presure lubricating properties and will gell all the oils I sent to some degree.

email or let me know if any other thoughts come up.
bruce

bruce381

04-12-2012, 01:21 AM

case lube alcohol with the HTO replacing lanolin would work well I think.

I think I sent some boron nitride too didin't I

runfiverun

04-12-2012, 02:53 AM

you sent some baragel that needs the acetone [airc] it works on naptha also.
many motor cleaners have a base with napthene in them.

most case lube alcohols are rubbing alcohol.
which has a drying affect on the alcohols in beeswax, and solidifies the fats in some waxes [carnuba]
i have used the alcohol/lanolin case lubes to take the tacky out of b-wax carnuba lubes before.

the cold bbl issue is a big one we have theorized that the bbls coating is drying up,oxidizing, or thickening and the first shot or two is repairing the bores condition.

i can alleviate it somewhat by wet swabbing the bbl with the liquid i use in my lube before i shoot but controlling the amount put in the bbl without affecting the conditioning in it is kinda tricky.
we were hoping the pao oils would alleviate this to some degree [within reason, i don't expect it to last a year]

geargnasher

04-12-2012, 03:18 AM

I didn't see any boron nitride, but you sent some talc too, interesting stuff.

I made a "painter's pallette" tonight and mixed a few things, and also did some more research on some of the ingredients we've been pondering.

First, the thickeners. Like I've mentioned, not all are compatible. For example, you can't mix clay with lithium complex, so there goes my bright idea for thickening Mobil 1 grease with bentone. Not sure if the fumed silica will work or not for that, and the Al stearate is a no-go with lithium complex to IIRC. Fumed silica and PAG oil makes a decent grease, but takes a lot of elbow grease, and still I think needs something to make it pliable rather than sticky, perhaps the HTO. Any of the solid thickeners tend to have some distinct advantages and disadvantages, mainly the shearing part varying the thickness so much. One thing I'm trying to accomplish is a shear-stable base, and unfortunately the silica, bentone, and aluminum soap are all very UN-shear-stable. Even the commercial aluminum soap greases fail under shear stresses, one of the reasons they've been all but phased out since better stuff has come along. I still intend to get some H1 food grade grease that's aluminum-based and add some of this powdered aluminum stearate to it to thicken it a bit and actually shoot it to see what gives. One of the plusses to the aluminum stearate and getting a synthetic grease with the same thickener is that we can make it gel more without compromising any of the chemicals in the original grease. The solid thickeners also seem to universally have one huge disadvantage: They tend to separate from the base oil when subjected to heat or inertial stress. As a grease, where they are in constant shear, they work great.

I also went through my grease inventory tonight and noticed some irksome things: Several cans of various automotive greases I have separated. Valvoline "import" wheel bearing grease was grainy and faded, and I noticed that about a third of the volume was a red liquid in the bottom of the can, visible through the cracks in the top layer of thickener. It literally poured out like engine oil. This is a straight lithium soap grease, apparently not a good one. The lithium complex greases all held up pretty well, as did the antimony thickener in the Mystik JT6 medium-duty grease. The JT6 high-temp grease is consistent and stringy as always. Some of the calcium-soap greases had dried out badly, which leads into my next rambling that goes back to the other thread: lube film cracking.

It never really occured to me until tonight that base oil evaporation could be a major fly in this ointment. I began to notice some greases are formulated with an EP additive that works dry and are deliberately made with an evaporating lubricant plus a thickener, so the concoction works like a grease and a dry lube carrier that lubes like a regular grease at first, then evaporates to leave the dry carrier. Specialized stuff, but not something I like for boolit lube. Many greases list the evaporation rate of the oil in terms of a standardized test, and I would think the lower the better, because I think a lube should leave a "wet" film in the barrel and I want it to stay there for some time. Also, I don't want the lube oil evaporating out of my stored ammo after a couple of years like it has done in some of the greases stored in my shop.

Sooo, on to lube oils. I'm on the fence with PAG and PAO. Part of me wants to try a multi-viscocity synthetic engine oil with a base of about 5 or 10 and enough coiled-polymer additives to get it to about 30 when it's hot, but I have it stuck in my head that the straight-viscocity PAGs that have a much higher VI and lower pour-point would be better for an alll-season lube. Cleaner, too, no ash or broken polymer chains to carbonize and leave residue. I haven't been able to find much on the evaporation rate of PAG oils, but I'll wager it's higher than the PAOs all else being equal. Theoretically, the gellant should have something to do with the evaporation rate of oil in the grease, or perhaps some binding agents that are added by grease manufacturers.

So what all this comes down to for me is that the more I play with this stuff, and the more I learn about greases, it's looking like the lithium complex thickener is the best, and either PAG or PAO oils would make the best lubes, and that pre-made grease is the best way to get these things, plus the greases have all sorts of anti-oxidants, binders, friction modifiers, and other additives in them that make them desireable as pre-engineered, pre-tested lube ingredients. I'm not out to copy VooDoo lube, but I think they took a very realistic approach to this, and probably went through a similar process of thinking when they developed it. Following this chain of reasoning, all we're really left with is finding the right grease and adding some compatible ingredients to make it a little less tacky and a little more firm. Perhaps carnauba wax is the answer after all, or one of the oil-based synthetic car waxes or even micro-wax.

But like I said, I'm far from through playing with the aluminum greases and even Popper's idea for peanut butter!

Gear

runfiverun

04-12-2012, 06:32 AM

after looking at row after row [page after page] of greases lately.
the two i really like are the lucas red and tacky and the mobile-1 synthetic.

the mobile-1 is where i would hang my hat, a pao/zddp additive [friction modifier] and a visc modifier [thinking the htc wax] would be about right.

most greases and motor oils have a shelf life of about a year, i am guessing evaporation takes it's toll.
i have used some greases my f.i.l. has had for close to 50 years that were/are still good, maybe that's why the companies went out of business.

popper

04-12-2012, 10:49 AM

M-1 also has anti-foam adds. I looked at talc for my liquidus PP idea, it's the weakest mineral known, doesn't absorb H2O, won't even stick to itself. As a plug, I think it will just blow through a hole just like a thick liquid.

geargnasher

04-12-2012, 12:56 PM

That's another problem with making a viscous fluid with solid thickeners: Cohesiveness. If it won't "string" or stick to itself, how's it going to make a fluid "gasket"?

There are additives for cohesion, in fact I believe the Lubrizol GY-HTO is an example of this, but the metal soap greases have an inherent cohesive property, particularly the lithium complex.

Gear

geargnasher

04-12-2012, 03:50 PM

Went to town this afternoon and got a tube of Mobil 1 220 synthetic lithium complex grease, can't seem to find the old tube of it I tried with beeswax a couple of years ago. It's virtually identical to the Lucas "red'n'tacky" grease in that it isn't stringy like melted cheese. I like it. I don't like the $18.99 price tag, but that might have to be the price of admission.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-12-2012, 03:59 PM

Gear,

Are you near a Wal-Mart? How does the Mobil 1 220 synthetic lithium complex grease compare to Wally World's "Super TECH Extreme Pressure MUTI-DUTY COMPLEX Hi-Temp Grease (Grasa Superior Roja Con Antificcionante)" :wink:

Heck, the latter was cheap enough for me to try it (and it even works pretty well mixed with beewax and Vaseline).

MJ

geargnasher

04-12-2012, 04:48 PM

I don't do much shopping at Wal Mart, couldn't say. I'll bet the main difference is the synthetic PAO base oil in the Mobil stuff.

Gear

runfiverun

04-12-2012, 06:39 PM

hi-temp is something that i stay away from.
hopefully i can get some pictures up [once i get little girl rounded up]
i went to the range today [man talk about getting a chance to try things in temp/weather extremes]
the 22-250 with my moly winter lube didn't fare to well at 100 yds with 33 grs of 4831sc powder.
the unburnt powder was causing flyers,i could clean them out and put two good shots down the bbl then a flyer,then clean. that's not gonna happen.

the 0-6 was quite a pleasant surprise though.
it had some bad leading in the bbl [lead star on the muzzle too] from the 7283 and 314299 fiasco last year.
it's clean now :bigsmyl2:
it did take the normal 7 shots for things to settle down then a good 5 shot group.
i moved to another target and fired 11 more rounds had a couple of melted snow drip down the face flyers [2].
and i suspended shooting after 11 shots as i wasn't sure if they were going in the same hole or completely off the target.
turning the target around i can count 5 for sure shots so i am pretty sure there are 7 holes there as the group is right close to the previous 5 shot group.

anyway's back to the weather.
i left the house in a tee shirt @ 65f and had my jacket in the mustang [as usual]
finished shooting the 22-250 and had put the coat on.
walked down to the 100 yd target,and by the time i got back it was raining, then sleet, then i could see my breath instantly.
then it started snowing,and then it got cold.
i packed it in, as i wasn't sure i was gonna get the car back up the dirt road.
by the time i got home the sun was back out and the temp back up to 60f again.

runfiveslittlegirl

04-12-2012, 10:25 PM

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/_DnA_/Mobile%20Uploads/0412122019c.jpg

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp255/_DnA_/Mobile%20Uploads/0412122019d.jpg

runfiverun

04-12-2012, 10:49 PM

you can clearly see the first shot flyer in both pictures.
it's at least close to the group now.
sometimes i wonder if it's me, in some of my guns it's part of the group.
sometimes it's in with the let the gun move wherever on recoil group.
and sometimes it's just outside the group.
with these new lubes it's always close, sometimes high, sometimes low,but almost always a little left.

Longwood

04-12-2012, 11:07 PM

most greases and motor oils have a shelf life of about a year, i am guessing evaporation takes it's toll.

Around here, it is often hot and almost always, very dry.
Right after Xmas, walmart had a pallet of cookie tins that did not sell before Xmas and I bought a few when they put them on sale..
I have started pan lubing in them, then leaving my bullets in those tins, embedded in the lube, until I am ready to cut them from the lube cake and use them.
I seal the lid with aluminum tape in hopes of preventing the lube from off-gassing and changing consistency and efficiency.

geargnasher

04-13-2012, 02:56 AM

Ok, I spent the whole evening recovering from smearing 6 boxes of drywall mud on the living room walls by really getting into this stuff you sent me. In the process of fiddling with all the ingredients my wife has confirmed that I'm completly insane, a theory she's been working on for a while now. Oh, well, I told her I was a nut before she said "yes" and she went and married me anyway, thank goodness!

First attack was the Mobil 1 grease. Gotta make it thicker somehow, and less sticky. I tried mixing it with carnuba wax (too crumbly), the silica (Cabosil) stuff (too gritty), talc (?), beeswax (too sticky), and finally with the HTO polymer. I didn't try the Baragel because it's highly incompatible with the lithium complex thickeners in the grease. The HTO/grease mix looks the best, is very plastic, but unfortunately is rock hard when frozen, gooey at room temp, and turns to duck chit at about 130F. It might work fine in the barrel, but it doen't pass muster from a workability standpoint. Shelving the Mobil 1 idea for now.

Next I started making greases. This is fun, BTW, I've spent a lifetime working with all manner of greases and wondered how they were made, pretty cool to just add a little of this and a little of that and go "OH! so that's what that stuff was!" recalling some concoction I've seen or used before. I recognize much of this by feel.

With the PAG oil I made grease using the Cabosil, Al Stearate, and the Baragel. The silica just doen't feel right, probably can't shear it enough with my spoon/plate to make it work. The Al Stearate makes a super-sticky grease, even when mixed to a putty-like consistency. While cutting the white powder into the oil on a piece of glass with a razor blade, it occured to me that I'd better lock the door and don my tinfoil Stetson :wink:. The Baragel, however, makes wonderful, plastic, non-tacky putty. Definetely getting closer.

I also made grease using BG full-synthetic ATF as a base oil and the same three thickeners I used for PAG greases. Again, the Baragel looks promising, not impressed with the Cabosil, and the Al Stearate makes a super-slick, sticky grease/putty stuff.

So, since I'm so impressed with the ease of making thick "grease" with the Baragel, I focused on that for a while, mixing it with 5W-30 Mobil 1 engine oil, PAG 100 air-conditioning oil, castor oil, and soybean oil. Baragel will make just about anything work, and it seems to be an excellent "base" for lots of other things like fine powdered graphite, Metamucil, camshaft lube (if you want to add the EP zinc compounds), you name it. I did some freezer tests on a few "pills" rolled from these Baragel-thickened oils and also put a torch to them, it's definetely a stable mix able to tolerate anything the base oil can withstand.

The graphite addition to the Baragel greases was a bombshell that hit me when I got to thinking about how gunpowder residue affects what's left in the barrel. Many gunpowders, particularly rifle powders, have high concentrations of graphite in their coatings, and it seems to mix with lube residue to make a sort of paste in the barrel. Most lube stars are grey, case in point. Graphite slides against graphite quite well as long as there is some sort of "moisture" present (it's an abrasive in outer space, as NASA established many years ago), but if there's any trace of oil or moisture present it is slippery as heck. So why not match what's in the barrel with what's in the grooves? I read somewhere once (Harrison's experiments, maybe?) that just thickening ordinary grease (probably calcium-soap-based) with graphite made a good lube. Adding a lot of graphite to the bentone-thickened greases actually made them softer. I wonder if the Baragel and graphite are interacting to make an almost "dry" lube in the presence of a little base oil. This could be good for surface lube but bad for the "stop leak" quality of the lube, since it is probably making the lube more "fluid" or "squirty" for lack of better words at the moment.

Anyway, I'm impressed with the Baragel in all respects as a thickener, and it looks like it is offering the best option so far as an effective gellant for the home lube cook. At least it's providing a base that can absorb many different "modifiers" effectively, so can be quite versatile. It's also incredibly consistent across a wide temp range. How well it maintains the oil content in heat (bleed), lubrication properties of the base oil (EP performance), and what happens in the barrel have yet to be seen. It might lead like the dickens, too, and it wouldn't be the first time an experimental lube has done that! If it works, I can see the future instructions: Combine a cup of synthetic ATF with two handfulls of Tidy-Cat in a blender and puree until smooth...... :o".

I lubed up a few .30 caliber boolits with "Gear's Grey Matter" lube (PAG, Barogel, Graphite) and still have the "Radioactive Zombie Lube" (BG Universal PAG w/UV tracer dye and hard, yellow beeswax) to try. Keep yer fingers crossed :grin:

Gear

geargnasher

04-13-2012, 03:34 AM

Ohhh, I just noticed that Calcium Sulfonate thickener can make a grease with an actual ZERO oil bleed and does everything bentone does, plus is more water-resistant. More stuff to ponder.

Gear

runfiverun

04-13-2012, 12:56 PM

kitty litter is too gritty when crushed [smilie=1:
at least with the methods i have tried.
a gelled atf does sound intriguing though, i wonder if it could be coddeled into a solid, with some graphite.
it just doesn't want to stay in place on a metal.
try some of the aluminum stearate with the mobile-1. 5% should bring it around.
i think that some of the sticky might could be brought down with an alcohol- b-wax has alcohols in it.
or rubbing alcohol might just do it too, a low percentage could fix it then evaporate off.

i was trying a more conventional approach making a lube, then blending it with a carrier,using the proportions to get my final visc.
i just don't know if the pao oil i used was a sufficient amount to act as a bore wetter though, i am hoping the lith grease/pao combination will do the trick.
i have the grease/b-wax at 50-50 right now and it seemed pretty dang good to me, as far as running through the sizer,cleaning the bbl and shooting well.
that is the best this rifle has ever shot, even with this same boolit load combo.[and i tried many]
same for the 8mm with the mixed synthetic there.
so there has to be something to this.
i am really impressed with the way it cleaned up the 0/6's bbl.
then again maybe it was just the hornady gas checks...

geargnasher

04-13-2012, 02:27 PM

I thought long and hard about the Al stearate to thicken the Mobil grease, but I had stuff all over me and didn't want to get it all over my "googler" at the time, but I did make some notes on things to research when I get time. Calcium sulfonate/bentone compatability is another note I made.

The gelled ATF isn't nearly as sticky as some of the other greases, but that's what I like about it (muzzle jettison). It's plenty sticky enough to stay in the grooves, but wouldn't survive if the boolits were piled together loosely. I'm hoping that it will squeeze out just enough oil under pressure to "wet" the bore and that the bentone can handle the high shear stress of the leading edge of the lands against the engraves, but the graphite should help and I can always add zinc blahblahblah or HTO to it as an EP booster. Heck, even moly would work.

I'm glad your grease/beeswax experiment went well, like I've said before I'm not sure the beeswax is our limiting factor, and it would be nice if it weren't because it's so dang easy to work with and makes a durable lube. There may be some hope for my Radioacive Zombie lube yet.

CBRick tried the Mobil 1 and beeswax once in some very proven guns, he said he had high hopes for it but it just fell on its face accuracy-wise compared to Felix lube and LBT. I tried it once, too, and had the same impression. I think the difficulty is in the carrier, not the synthetic lube oil. Speed Green is pretty good stuff, and it has a synthetic lube oil and beeswax carrier too, and lithium complex grease and beeswax makes a decent lube if the lube is a conventional mineral oil, so it's tough to figure exactly what the issue is. Maybe just the wrong combination of stuff.

Junior's 4-1-1 is another example of a pretty decent beeswax/lithium grease/conventional oil lube, but it has the same temperature limitations that all of the conventional oil or natural oil lubes seem to: Modifiers like lanolin, carnauba, and sodium stearate need to be employed at the temperature extremes to give the best results.

Gear

runfiverun

04-14-2012, 01:25 AM

i like the lithium greases also [a lot, and atf]
i think the wax and the aluminum stearate took place of the binders [goin with what i know to start]
but did so in a cleaner way, to bind the lube ingredients, and not bind the lube to the carrier.

to do the mobile-1 as a lube "without a carrier" would be the way to go.
it would be similar to the j-lube, only with a different base.
the waxes/fats really affects the synthetics drastically, as you seen when i mixed the b-wax and carnuba red into the j-lube,
and had to mix more synthetic into it over and over to get it useable.
something like 2-3% carnuba or 10% beeswax will really,really, firm it up.

i shot 100 rounds of the yellow lube today over an 8 hour period through the 0-6.
the bbl looks like it has had carnuba in it, with a little powder fouling.

there was a couple of other guy's there that had a ton of questions about "cleaning lead out of the bbl".
especially when they seen i was shooting the 22-250 at "what sounded like normal loads".
[thier words]
when i got done laughing, i showed them all three of my rifles bbl's and then told them about how many rounds had been down them without being cleaned.
i showed two guy's the 0-6 bbl after the hundred round test,one of them was there for the full 100 rounds.
he really thought i would have a sewer pipe :lol:
his eyes were a bit wide when he seen the target and the bbl.
i did let him shoot the mauser with 30.5 grs of 4895, and the 190 gr boolit lubed with j-lube, at the 300 yd plates.
he went through 20 rounds and was most impressed.
especially when he hit the 6" plate 10 times in a row without the bbl getting smoking hot.
and that, in the wind we were having, he only had to hold off about 4"s.

so far so good,i really like this yellow lube i think i am gonna make some more, but leave out the micro-wax this time.

geargnasher

04-14-2012, 01:56 AM

Is this "Yellow lube" the stuff from post #150 with the additional beeswax added?

I'm heading to my range (50-yard) first thing in the morning to try out my "Grey Matter" lube, if it works at all I'm going to load some more and head to town to see how it does at 100. I still have the "Zombie" lube to try, and have high hopes for it, but I think it will need something "else" in it, like a better gellant. I really wish the HTO was more temp-stable, it made a wicked-good feeling lube out of the Mobil 1 at room temperature. I like the concept of gelling with a long-string polymer, but I don't know if the HTO has the "right stuff".

Gear

runfiverun

04-14-2012, 02:28 AM

yeah, i have taken to calling it "engineer yellow".
i gotta call it something as i have two black lubes [flat and satin], the o.d. green one,a red-brown one,and a pink one.
plus the yellow/brown tumble,and the j-lube.
it's green when i make, it but yellow on the boolits??
i don't think the microwax is necessary in it, and is what was causing the initial little bit of crumbly feeling when i mixed in the b-wax.
i put the first shot on paper at 50 yds at the start of the shooting, and it was dead in the orange.
the rest went to 100 yds and started just a bit to the right.
the 100 shots slowly worked thier way across the paper to the left as the sun went across the sky today.
not unusual, but it went away from the sun.
i am sure the wind was the actual influence.
it picked up substantially in the late afternoon and i was reading gusts of 15 mph.
i have seen open sighted rifles follow the sun across the sky from the little glint on the front sight.

Longwood

04-14-2012, 02:29 AM

I had very good success with Lubri-plate as an ingredient for lube back when I did not know where to buy very many different bullet lubes.
I was told many times that it was the best grease money could buy and the price reflected it.
I still have about 1/2 of a pint can but I use it for so many things, I hate to use it up for bullet lube. I have not seen it for sale for years.
I am experimenting with much slower bullets now and lube cookies for the first time, maybe I will try a little Lubri-plate in a couple of experiments.

Marlin Junky

04-14-2012, 05:16 AM

...Modifiers like lanolin, carnauba, and sodium stearate need to be employed at the temperature extremes to give the best results.

Gear

I don't get it when you claim lanolin to be a modifier that can help lube properties at the temperature extremes. Lanolin is the one thing I've worked with that is extremely sensitive to temperature variation... at least in its pure form. It's hard as beeswax (well not quiet) at room temp during the winter and like Vaseline during the summer.

MJ

geargnasher

04-14-2012, 11:00 AM

MJ, you don't get it because I didn't say it right. I used "temperature extremes" as a general term. If you've been following from R5R's other thread, you will notice that carnauba is a hot-weather stiffener that I blame for cold barrel flyers. Sodium stearate is a hot weather binder. I didn't mention it, but stearic acid is an excellent low-temperature binder/hardnener. Lanolin, even when cold, is sticky and adds pliability to cold lube.

My point was that the lube formulas we've been using have to have those things added/subtracted/tweaked for best results in all weather conditions, and no single formula works best year 'round.

Gear

Mugs

04-14-2012, 01:58 PM

Gear
I noticed Bruce had mentioned Boron Nitride in one of his posts. I've been using Easy Lube bike chain lube to lube airgun pellets, with good results. I've seen that alot of BR guys have switched from moly to Boron Nitride. The bike lube contains Cerflon which is a PTFE with BN added. Just a thought.
Mugs

runfiverun

04-14-2012, 02:09 PM

boron nitride is the "new" moly it slides on itself quite well and the trick is to get a coating in the bbl and use that in the lube too.
it does have a lot of open peaks and valleys in it's makeup.
and there are some advantages to it.
the issue would still be that the other stuff in the lube will fill those in, and you'd still be back to square one fighting bore condition.

geargnasher

04-14-2012, 03:18 PM

We're always going to be battling bore condition on that first shot, but I aim to minimize its effect as much as possible by controlling it as a lube film which can be applied with patch or boolit. If we don't have a complicated, delicately seasoned, dynamic surface, maintaining accuracy will be easier.

Gear

geargnasher

04-14-2012, 06:17 PM

Range report on the bentone/PAG/Graphite: NOT good. Turned the bore into a sewer pipe in ten shots. I swabbed out what I could with a solvent patch and fired ten more with just the bentone/PAG, same results. Interesting thing, though, First round was on target, groups were tight but every third or fourth shot dropped exactly two inches. I figured it was lube purging because I lubed every groove and the oil is very thick, but it might have been lead purging judging by how badly the bore was fouled. This will take some time to clean, probably won't be shooting any more today.

I'm encouraged by the PAG oil because I prepped the bore with it and the first shot was dead-on in the groups discounting the flyers, and the flyers printed their own tight group directly below. 20 shots is too many for it to be a freak trend. Now, if I could only figure out why it leads.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-14-2012, 07:40 PM

My point was that the lube formulas we've been using have to have those things added/subtracted/tweaked for best results in all weather conditions, and no single formula works best year 'round.

Gear

Boy, ain't that the truth... or even from early morning to afternoon. Makes one want to start wrapping all their castings in paper.

MJ

Hang Fire

04-14-2012, 08:43 PM

geargnasher

04-14-2012, 08:51 PM

I LIED! Couldn't stand it anymore, so I broke out the de-lead kit and scrubbed the barrel mostly clean (some stubborn deposits in the rifling's trailing-edge groove), and went back out and shot ten of the "Radioactive Zombie Lube" boolits before the sun went completely down. I prepped the bore with some of the BG Universal PAG oil, dry patched, and shot the first one an inch low and a little left at 50-yards, then put the next nine in a ragged hole I could easily cover with a quarter. Some bit if light leading on both sides of the lands near the muzzle, but not bad. Might not have gotten the sewer pipe clean enough before shooting this batch.

I'm noticing a trend here, beeswax-based lubes are working better than most others. This brings up a point Bruce made several times when we talked on the phone: Usually (in his field of work, Tribology and oil formulation) it's easier to start with something that works most of the time and reformulate it slightly to get it to work under all the necessary conditions than it is to start over from scratch with a different approach. Thinking of the Breox 1000 PAG, it's very, very much like castor oil at room temperature, very viscous and very slick. I'm also thinking about how beeswax works, and how the zombie lube worked. Perhaps I should take the PAG concept and the Beeswax concept and put them together with the heavier PAG in the approximate total oil/wax proportions of the proven Felix lube, but subtract the soap and the lanolin because I don't think they're necessary except when using the much lower VI castor oil. When I get back from town later tonight I'm going to play with that concept some more.

I'm really disappointed in the clay-based lube, I had high hopes for it since it's so temp consistent and simple to make. Anyone care to theorize as to why it caused so much leading? For all of these tests I'm shooting WD 50/50+1%Sn aged at 18 BHN, sized .311", Hornady Crimp-On checks, .002" neck tension on fireformed, NS'd brass, 28 grains of RX 7, no filler. Load works flawlessly with Felix lube except in cold weather.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-14-2012, 09:12 PM

...I'm really disappointed in the clay-based lube, I had high hopes for it since it's so temp consistent and simple to make. Anyone care to theorize as to why it caused so much leading? For all of these tests I'm shooting WD 50/50+1%Sn aged at 18 BHN, sized .311", Hornady Crimp-On checks, .002" neck tension on fireformed, NS'd brass, 28 grains of RX 7, no filler. Load works flawlessly with Felix lube except in cold weather.

Gear

28 grains of Re7 in what size case with what boolit (I ain't got time to go through this whole thread)? All I can really tell you for sure is that lube can definitely influence chamber pressure and the pressure curve in general. Perhaps you should repeat with BHN 13-15?

MJ

P.S. I guess I'd like to know at this point whether it makes sense to substitute micro-wax for beeswax without spending the 40 bucks + shipping charges it'll take to put it in my hands, not to mention the time it'll take to whip up a batch of lube. Oh yeah, then there's the selection among the several possibilities of micro wax... I guess I need more time and money. One thing I have noticed though, is that Mineral Oil (heavy or otherwise) ends up as a basic ingredient in lots of stuff and perhaps everyone interested in the ultimate CB accuracy needs at least 2 luber-sizers.

btroj

04-14-2012, 09:26 PM

It is a 30-30, using a proven load for that rifle. That is the only way to have a fair test.

I am following this with keen interest.

runfiverun

04-14-2012, 09:31 PM

I will just stay with my simple lube formula came up with. By volume, 8 ounces each of melted beeswax and hydrogenated coconut (popcorn) butter with one tablespoon of Mobil 1 oil stirred in.

It is good for BP or smokeless and laughs at this 125+ degree heat without separating or melting here in the Arizona desert.

how does it do at 0*f ??
some of the hydrogenated oils show promise.
depending on how much water is in them.

gear.
i'm kinda puzzeled by the build up in your bbl.
i have had a smear spot from carnuba red where the peak pressure drops off in the bbl.
i wondered if the lube was flowing warm then cooled down and that was where it went from the wet to dry stage leaving the lube build up.

you might be on that verge the whole time, and it could just be a percentage thing.
you got's too much [sumthin]
anyways you might have just seen what runnin out of lube looks like. [literally]

Marlin Junky

04-14-2012, 09:33 PM

It is a 30-30, using a proven load for that rifle. That is the only way to have a fair test.

I am following this with keen interest.

Hey that's a hot load with all but the lightest boolits!

MJ

runfiverun

04-14-2012, 09:47 PM

mj i have three.
one is pretty much filled and emptied constantly for these tests.
the other two are just gathering dust right now.

my first lube recipe is in post number 150.
bees wax is not the hold back, but i am still not sure it will make the swing without modification.
the micro waxes are intriguing, but pcking the right one,or being able to modify it would be essential.
if you could find one that had the viscosity between b-wax and soy wax scented candles.
it would be about right.
i mix the soy[candle]wax with b-wax now at a ratio of 5 to 1 for my o.d. green lube.
you can use sodium stearate as a lube with it and not have the hardening it usually causes.

btroj

04-14-2012, 09:47 PM

Hey that's a hot load with all but the lightest boolits!

MJ

At least I thought that was the gun he was using. I do know people who use that load in a 30-30 to quite good effect.

I suppose I should let Gear speak for himself?

runfiverun

04-14-2012, 10:05 PM

i think it's a 30-30 too.
i use 27 grs of aa-2230 in mine, so he's not too far off my loads.
the rx-7 is probably a bit better in the heat than the 2230 is.

geargnasher

04-14-2012, 11:50 PM

Nope, the "test mule" has been my newer M-70 .30-'06. I forgot to list the boolit again, it's the Lee 312-185 that I have to use in order to get the right sized bore-riding section for this overbored rifle (.301"). One of two hardcore "proven" loads with that boolit are 29.5 -ish RX 7 for around 2,050 fps and 39.5 of H4350 for about 2,020 fps. I use 27 grains in my .30-30 with 165-grain boolits to good effect, but that rifle isn't exactly a 100-yard tack driver, about 2.5 MOA is all it will do even since I mounted the 4x scope on it. I backed off on the RX 7 a bit for this test to drop it under 2K fps and make Larry Gibson happy :razz: I suppose I should really go back and try it again with the H4350 to stretch out the pressure curve a bit.

I think maybe the pressure was letting off too soon, or maybe I had too many grooves lubed with the clay stuff. It might not take that much of it, and too much might be galling up on itself, superheating, and ripping the bands off of the boolits. I'm not throwing anything out yet, but I'd like to test the more promising stuff first. If I could make the clay lube work I'd prefer it over anything else. I did notice a distinct grey "puff" of something right out of the muzzle every shot, figured it was the lube bailing out of the grooves. Might have been the lube bailing out before the boolit quite cleared the gun, though.

Still thinking about the Mobil 1 grease, but the only thing realistically compatible with the lithium complex thickener is wax or other lithium gellants. Bentone is compatible with nothing, and the aluminum stearate/lithium complex is a no-go according to every grease chart I've ever looked at in my life. Might have to try the Lithi-Bee thing again and try to figure out why it didn't work so well when I tried it before, I think lube purging was causing the problems.

Gear

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 12:06 AM

how does it do at 0*f ??
some of the hydrogenated oils show promise.
depending on how much water is in them.

gear.
i'm kinda puzzeled by the build up in your bbl.
i have had a smear spot from carnuba red where the peak pressure drops off in the bbl.
i wondered if the lube was flowing warm then cooled down and that was where it went from the wet to dry stage leaving the lube build up. Remember what Bruce said about gelling more under extreme shear pressure? That might be it, too.

you might be on that verge the whole time, and it could just be a percentage thing.
you got's too much [sumthin] Wouldn't be the first time I've run things just over or under the ragged edge and missed the sweet spot by a millimeter.
anyways you might have just seen what runnin out of lube looks like. [literally]

I dunno. I'm wondering if we're the first people in history to use clay in boolit lube, or maybe there's a good reason why it isn't mainstream. Even though it doesn't melt, it would be a cinch to extrude hollow sticks and cram them in a sizer, so that isn't the issue. I'm thinking the wax matrix just works better as a "carrier" for boolit lube than the solid thickeners do, still not sure about hard soap grease. I can still try the Aluminum Stearate/PAG grease I made, that would answer some questions since the Aluminum Stearate is the only thickener I have that will make a straight, true "grease" thick enough to test. I'd like to know if the metal soap matrix by itself is good enough for a carrier if made thick enough. The J-lube showed some promise in that direction, I just don't know if that's the best carrier for the full temp range needed here.

Gear

bruce381

04-15-2012, 12:31 AM

try 10-15% wt Al stearte and PAG heat the AL stearte to about 250F to melt it in then let gel overnight, the AL sterate will gel without the shearing needed for th others, BY the way most all NON melt greases are bentone based.

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 12:38 AM

Thanks Bruce, I didn't think about heating it, I just mixed it cold and "smeared" it together, it made a nice, thick, creamy paste about like room-temp cream cheese.

Gear

runfiverun

04-15-2012, 02:23 AM

that would also explain why my finished lube got so much better after the second heating and blending.
did something right without even knowing it [for once]

runfiverun

04-15-2012, 02:37 AM

another thing i have noticed with these synthetics is that the b-wax is drastically reduced.
instead of adding a table spoon full of this or that to a lb of wax.
you add the wax as an ingredient to firm up the final result.
i am going 50-50 on the engineer yellow, and will end up around 30% b-wax and 3 ish % on the atf with the j-lube, for them to have the same final viscosity.
the viscosity is the same as my other lubes made with 60-70% b-wax and soy wax carriers even with modifiers under 5%.
so the alcohol chains in the b-wax have to be influencing the outcome.
i am pretty curious if i upped the al stearate to 10% in the lith grease if i could lower the b-wax even further.
i should have enough of it to make another 5 oz's at that percentage.

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 04:51 AM

Ok, here's a fun one to ponder: I decided to make more of the "Zombie" lube, but with the Breox 1000 PAG instead of the AC stuff with the tracer dye. I melted the beeswax gently and added the same percentage as the castor/mineral/lanolin in Felix lube, or about 7/8 tablespoon per 2 Oz. wax. the Breox didn't want to blend, forming little droplets all over. After a few minutes of stirring, the stuff I presume to be the Breox flowed together under the beeswax and started turning brown. I wasn't going over 180F with this, so it wasn't burning. I added 1/2 tsp stearic acid to try to bind it, but no dice. I gave up and poured it into an angled glass to concentrate the oil near the bottom and let it cool completely. When I popped the chunk out, I had an almost white, very purified-looking wax cake with a pure white, crystalline core (the stearic acid, I believe), and this mushy, dark yellow-brown stuff on the bottom that looked and felt exactly like earwax. There was a clean separation line between the wax cake with the white core and the other goop. Something weird happened for sure, I'm guessing the Breox precipitated some of the "stuff" from the beeswax, and the stearic acid wouldn't dissolve in what was left of either so it clumped to itself in the center of what was left of the wax while it cooled. What really fascinated me was that the beeswax cake isn't really beeswax anymore. It smells like honey still, but is more like a plastic. It's hard, shiny, pliable, will bend quite a bit without cracking, but isn't very stretchy. Whatever it is, it isn't what I was trying to make. When I used the AC PAG oil I had zero separation issues, even sliced a muffin in two with a razor blade to look, and it's very much homogenized.

I also made some Lithi-bee with the Mobil 1 grease, 50/50 by weight, finally got it to blend into a lump-free, creamy gravy and poured it on a plate to cool. I put some in the freezer and it got hard as a freakin-rock, like shattered when I hit it with a hammer kind of hard. At room temp it's ok, but still a bit firmer than I like, looks like you're right about the synthetics needing much less wax than conventional greases and oils. I should have listened to you when you said 10% or whatever it was, you've been playing with the wax and synthetics more than me!

So while waiting for the beeswax/Breox to cool, I went back over all the stuff I've made and tried, and started analyzing the failures. The Ivory soap/Permatex Hi-temp brake caliper slide grease stuff made wonderful, greasy, firm, stretchy, temp-stable lube with no real melting point, no first-shot flyer, but leaded. The synthetic ATF/Ivory stuff made a nice pliable, waxy, slick lube that would crack slightly when kneaded (compared to the slide grease version), and it leaded worse, but again, no first shot flyer. The clay lube, with and without graphite, leaded even worse than that, but the first two shots were touching and in the group subtracting the subsequent flyers every 3-4 shots. The beeswax/BG PAG oil had a first-shot flyer, but a really tight group with no surprises, the slight bore leading not withstanding. I'm not drawing any conclusions about the bore leading because the barrel has been through a lot lately and hasn't been completely stripped clean at any point. What do I think at this point? I have one big question now for everyone to ponder: What if the lube has to melt to work? Think about an ice skate for a minute. The blade of the skated doesn't glide over the ice, it glides on water. Pressure against the ice from the weight of the skater instantly melts a microscopic layer of ice as it touches it, allowing the skate to float on a slippery layer of water, which acts as a film lubricant between the frozen skate and the frozen water. Following that concept, and observing that lubes with non-melting bases lead, I'm starting to consider that if the base doesn't let the lube in contact with the bore thin out a great deal in proportion to the speed of the boolit, then the boolit over-runs the lube and just rips through the bore leaving lead debris and lube residue in it's wake, hence the awful fouling I've been experiencing.

I have labored to achieve a temp-stable carrier, and have come up with a couple that are superbly consistent from uncomfortably-hot-to-hold to my deep freeze temp of 5 below, but they don't work in the barrel. Mission accomplished, experiment a success, conclusion is that that was the WRONG approach. I'm thinking the whole reason for the cold-barrel and cold-weather flyers for the first few shots is entirely due to the extra calories it takes to get that lube film just right for the dynamic and brief near-instant that the boolit zips across it. IOW, the only thing that really matters to the boolit is how the lube is reacting to the bore at any given instant from launch to muzzle, and I think there's a very large friction difference between an inch into the barrel and the muzzle end due to the speed and pressure of the boolit acting on the lube film. The non-melting lubes just can't handle the speed it seems because the carriers are preventing the liquid sliding surface from happening. The deeper I go into this, the stupid-er I'm getting.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-15-2012, 05:17 AM

...the micro waxes are intriguing, but picking the right one, or being able to modify it would be essential. If you could find one that had the viscosity between b-wax and soy wax scented candles, it would be about right.

Has anyone talked to the folks at Blended Waxes about making a lube (unfortunately, it looks like the minimum order is a ton)?

Nevertheless, BW-431 (http://www.shopblendedwaxes.com/180F-White-Microcrystalline-Wax.html) is listed as a "Lubricant for PVC Extrusion" and is available as a retail item through BW's webstore. Scroll down to the Building & Construction section:

http://www.blendedwaxes.com/index.php/industries-we-serve/industries-we-serve

MJ

btroj

04-15-2012, 07:29 AM

I think the ice skate reference is aout dead on. The lube that fills the entire groove doesn't need to melt but a thin film in contact with the bore needs to be fluid enough to provide a slick layer for the bullet to pass smoothly thru the bore.

I don't know if the cold weather flyers are because the lube dries out like Run has mentioned or if it is because the lube in the barrel is cold enough to provide a bit of resistance, almost like a bitof leading. Warm the barrel just a bit and the lubrisizer thin enough to flow. Any of us who use a heater for our lubrisizer understand that even a. 5 degree difference can make a huge impact on the flow properties of some of our lubes.

I don't think it is getting stupid-er Gear, you are just learning what doesn't work. Along the way you may be gaining more insight into how lubes work and what properties they need in order to be effective. If you got it right on the first try it wouldn't be as fun, would it? I always tell my daughter that anything in life worth accomplishing is difficult because the easy to do stuff is easy, anyone can do it.

357maximum

04-15-2012, 12:03 PM

I have one big question now for everyone to ponder: What if the lube has to melt to work? Think about an ice skate for a minute. The blade of the skated doesn't glide over the ice, it glides on water. Pressure against the ice from the weight of the skater instantly melts a microscopic layer of ice as it touches it, allowing the skate to float on a slippery layer of water, which acts as a film lubricant between the frozen skate and the frozen water. Following that concept, and observing that lubes with non-melting bases lead, I'm starting to consider that if the base doesn't let the lube in contact with the bore thin out a great deal in proportion to the speed of the boolit, then the boolit over-runs the lube and just rips through the bore leaving lead debris and lube residue in it's wake, hence the awful fouling I've been experiencing.

.........

..........

............................................

The deeper I go into this, the stupid-er I'm getting.

Gear

I would say you are learning something not getting stuuuupider errr. :kidding:

Now you know and understand the mechanics behind the "why" when I added soft microcrystalline wax to the standard lithi-bee recipe to make MML. Unfortunately when the "cold start flyer" was erased using the microwax it also caused the lube to become instant goose poop when pressurized and warmed in certain lubesizers and under certain temperature situations (HOT). This trait did fill my goal of a good HUNTING LUBE for cool weather and it does fill the bill for 99% of my shooting here in MICHIGAN....If I lived somewhere south of here where it is warmer another approach/recipe would have been neded.

The "lube" takes a second seat waaaay back after the carrier as the carrier is the most important part in my opinion.

I wish you luck, but I do not feel your goal can be realized....sometimes in life you simply need to compromise....boolit lube is proably one of them times. I ended up compromising the the carriers ...beeswax/microwax in MML, but the "lube"..A.K.A lithium grease never changed. The man that originally melted beeswax and lithium grease together was either very informed or very lucky as I believe he hit the pinnacle of lube pretty close to dead on. The rest of us have simply been copying and modifying ever since......but it works.

If I were still to continue chasing my tail on the lube front and lived south of here somewhere......I would look into a higher melt point microwax and lithium grease and nix the beeswax altogether. You WILL be happy when you find the right microwax for your location.

***the proceeding has been one man's opinion and is likely worth exactly what you paid for it. *****

felix

04-15-2012, 12:16 PM

A lithium grease is approximately lithium stearate at 7 percent within a vaseline type base. Then, that is mixed 50-50 with beeswax provides the lithium lube talked about. Using an appropriate microwax instead of beeswax can be adjusted per 357maximum for the application. There is an article in Handloader back in the late 80's - early 90's that discusses using the beeswax carrier. ... felix

btroj

04-15-2012, 12:21 PM

You aren't kidding aout MML turning to goose poop with just a tiny bit too much heat. I haven't shot it enough in the heat of summer to see how it behaves for me but I like it in the cold.

357maximum

04-15-2012, 12:58 PM

You aren't kidding aout MML turning to goose poop with just a tiny bit too much heat. I haven't shot it enough in the heat of summer to see how it behaves for me but I like it in the cold.

You should have seen the version that was made using micro/paraffin/lithium grease......... or the version with just micro/lithium grease....both had ZERO plastic range....lube went from a solid and turned into milk.......right now.:holysheep The affectionate name for that lube was boolit semen.

That is the reason all 3 waxes ended up in their final proportions. Myself and Babore were trying to "balance" the carrier and it took multiple tries. In the end it worked real well for our uses.

I have been across Nebraska several times and if it bothers in "THE HEAT" add some beeswax in place of some of the parraffin and you should be good to go. You are not that much warmer than Michigan but our summer air is a bit thicker thanks to the wind dumping moisture from the Great Lakes onto us. I am not even going to think about what humidity does to a lube.[smilie=b: I will leave that to them edumacated folks.:p

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 02:11 PM

You might be right, Michael. I thought I could get away from the performance limits of conventional lube by making it have the most constant temperature/velocity possible, and I made four very nice concoctions that to me just "felt right", but for some reason none of them shoot without leading in an otherwise known-good combination. I'm going to keep plugging at it until I figure out why that's happening. It's important to know for sure whether a non-melting base is the problem, or if it's just clay-based lube that can't handle it when thickened too much.

Things I haven't tried are super-thickened aluminum stearate grease, bentone and PAO oils, and Ivory soap/PAG oils, although like you said, the "lube" part probably factors in a lot less than we think. Maybe even a conventional oil with a lower VI and a non-melting base would work, something to "thin out" the sliding layer near the muzzle but a temp-stable carrier to dispense it.

What ever is going on, I'll bet the crux of it involves the dynamic change in lube film from throat to muzzle as the boolit goes from zero to 2K fps in less than two feet. Studying the "speed rating" of the base oil in many greases is an eye-opener, according to some standardized formulas we're routinely exceeding the rated mechanical speed of any auto or industrial grease we use by dozens of times. When the entire system is operating in a 100+ degree temp window, the lube condition at the muzzle is drastically different at either temp extreme, and that seems to be causing our problems.

Temp-stable base lubes like what Speed Green uses seem to be a little less finicky in the temp extremes, and I think that's because the base, which is doing the real work, does the appropriate amount of surface-liquifying under friction and pressure whether the "system" starts out at 150 degrees below its melt point or 40 degrees.

Gear

357maximum

04-15-2012, 02:47 PM

Felix

I have been using Motor Mica to coat normal grease grooved boolits lubed with MML after seeing it improve accuracy of lee snot coated "plinker" boolits. It seems to make the bore condition even more consistant and the loads are definately more accurate even at 2400+ velocities.

Is there a way Gear could incorporate such a thing into his obsession without fancy equipment?

I have thought about adding some directly into MML as it cooled to keep it suspended, but I melt and pour to fill the sizer and mentally nixed the idea. I simply put a small amount of Motor Mica into a baggie to coat the already lubed/sized boolits and it works so I did not fuss with it.

Any application to this "quest"??????????

runfiverun

04-15-2012, 03:10 PM

back to the ice skate thing.
ski's work the same way, but they are waxed.
here's where the lube analogy comes in.
they use a thickened miicro-wax [parrafin maybe] to do this, but the waxes come in three different colors airc green,yellow, and red
for different conditions on the snow [temp]
i feel pretty good about only having two lubes [okay, one with a modifier] and now the engineer yellow to work with.
but i have only tried it in about a 35-40 degree window.

like i mentioned n the other post i am pretty dang sure lube does have a fluid stage.
brought on by friction and powder heat.
it's melt point influences when this happens and for how long in the bbl.
and is why some lubes are better in the cold and some in the heat.
we are looking at big windows -40 to 350/500 with some of this stuff.
and i believe the trick is to narrow that window, b-wax works because of it's 180f melt temp, but it also has a go soft stage somewhere in the 120f area.
the white lith i am using has the flow stage at room temp, it doesn't change at 100 and is only slightly thicker at the cold end and is why i add the atf for the cold.
the atf version works at the hot end too, but i have that first shot thing at both ends.
it wouldn't really matter for deer hunting out to 150 yds or so, as it's not a wild shot, it's just not in the group.
if i can put a lube between my thumb and side of my finger [with firm pressure] and glide it along and get a bit of softening and a residual glide,without any grittyness it is usually a good shooter.

the separation and cleaning of the wax is perplexing and i'm glad you posted it because i was gonna give that a try.
i may try some pao and the soft candle wax [soy] and see if it takes the oil.
to get a grease to go into the b-wax don't melt the b-wax
just get it to the soft mushy stage [like peanut butter] and then blend the two together,you may have to re-heat and blend as you go walking that mush stage.

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 03:29 PM

Looks like we're on the same page, R5R. I like your concept of adding three things together to cover the bases, like a multi-viscocity engine oil. Thin base oil for low temps, a soap-matrix grease for midrange, and let the wax handle the high end and "bear" the whole enchilada down the barrel. Depending on how the oil/thickened oil/wax all interact with each other, you might be on the right track. The problem I see arising is that when you dissolve grease into wax, they both change in structure. When you dissolve oil into grease, it changes too. It's almost like we need a base oil that won't blend with the oil in the grease, and a grease and base oil that won't blend too well with the carrier wax, so each can do it's own thing.

Bruce and I discussed how castor bean oil has a really lousy VI, although it has some amazing properties as a natural lube. Where it falls on its face is in the cold. The beeswax doesn't seem to be the limiting factor here, it's the base oil. Keeping with a two-part lube, I'm going to keep pursuing the PAG/beeswax lube for now and see where that leads me, then maybe pursue the Mobil 1/beeswax lube with some ATF added, basically Junior's formula but with synthetic grease and ATF.

Gear

runfiverun

04-15-2012, 03:30 PM

motor mica sublimates when subjected to heat, it will firm up some wax mixtures too.
trewax and jpw 50-50 and reduced with motor mica melted in shows a definate thickening.
and very little of it is needed.
1/8th teaspoon and 4 oz's reduced jpw showed some good thickening ability.
that and 2 tbs grated ivory is my o.d. green lube.

a tumble lube or dry coating is a direction i am looking at to alleviate fighting the viscosity issue. ;heck, that paint stuff is beginning to look attractive.
i have even thought about just soaking the naked boolits [or dropping from the mold] in a zddp additive.

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 03:35 PM

The ZDDP impregnation would solve your lube problems, but what would it do for obturation? Paper-patching looks better every day, doesn't it? :kidding:

When threads come up about how somebody spent days out of their life to copper-plate a single boolit when paper-patching and heat-cure powdered paints have already been proven (not to mention swaging jacketed "boolits"), I just shake my head. That's ok, lots of folks are probably shaking their heads at us!

Gear

runfiverun

04-15-2012, 03:39 PM

with this synthetic stuff i have started thinking of the b-wax as a modifyer/binder and not as the carrier.

runfiverun

04-15-2012, 03:50 PM

i figured the boolit diameter would take care of that.
you would have to have a good bbl though.
if it didn't gall in the bbl i think it would do the job
something along the lines of lla or recluse lube just 1,000 times thinner.

felix

04-15-2012, 03:56 PM

There is some lazy guy in a polymer ivory tower somewhere looking for something interesting and different. You can bet on it. He might be burried somewhere in a Monsanto, GE, DuPont, Hercules, Mobile, BP, Bristol, Bayer, etc. You know, the folks with full blown shareable databases containing thousands of chemical expansions with attributes. What we are looking for is a coating consisting of cellulose properties, type applicable by luber machine, tumble lubing, or pan lubing. ... felix

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 06:04 PM

What about guar gum?

The funny thing about paper-jacketed boolits is that they need some lube to work best at really high speed and twist rate, but it doesn't seem to matter much what that lube is. Tumble-lubing the dried boolits in Recluse lube does as well as a soft mix of beeswax and Vaseline, straight JPW, FWFL, etc...... It must work because the paper is the "carrier" and any sort of slickum at all does the trick. No fliers, no fouling to speak of, a cold clean barrel is as good as a hot, seasoned one.

Don't get me thinking about the cellulose fiber/wax/oil lube thing again :veryconfu

Gear

357maximum

04-15-2012, 06:36 PM

What about guar gum?

Don't get me thinking about the cellulose fiber/wax/oil lube thing again :veryconfu

Gear

C'mon...you know you wanna.:bigsmyl2::popcorn:

geargnasher

04-15-2012, 06:49 PM

Ok, Mike, but just this once, and I'm not going to inhale!

Gear

357maximum

04-15-2012, 09:38 PM

If I was stirring a cauldron full of the stuff you have been using I would not inhale either.:kidding: Basic Brown Lithium grease is bad enough. The vroom vroom red racing grease is even worse......whewwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeee.

bruce381

04-16-2012, 01:42 AM

try mixing only a few things like 20% AL stearte, PAG and maybe some micro wax heat to 200f or so till mixed then set over night

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 02:16 AM

Bruce, that's one of the things I did tonight. I mixed 15 grains of alumimum stearate, 85 grains of PAG, heated until the oil just started to smoke and pulled off the heat, mixed well and poured out to set up. So far it's still runny. I'm thinking the way to go with the aluminum stearate is to buy a tube of grease and add to it until firm.

I did try the shredded paper and some Felix lube, believe it or not it actually looks like it might work, but I have no idea if it would be an improvement or not temp-wise. I honestly have zero experience shooting paper jackets in really cold weather, so as far as I know the drawbacks might be the same using the same lube base.

I also gave the Mobil 1 grease another go, this time going one ounce each grease and beeswax, then adding a teaspoon of synthetic ATF and a half-teaspoon of carnauba wax. I lubed and loaded 20 just to see what it will do, although I really don't like it much. When it cools it forms a very solid, brittle mass, but once you start to "work" it it turns to a sticky putty, and when it sets again it firms back up. The idea was to have a low-viscosity base oil, whatever is in the grease + the lithium complex binder, suspend the whole mess in a beeswax matrix, and add a little carnauba for stiffness and to lower the tack. So far the Mobil 1 has been really ornery to work with, much more so than any other lithium grease I've experimented with.

I messed with the "zombie" lube again, and I'm thinking it is showing the best promise so far, but it still needs something to make it a tad more pliable without adding any stickiness. It's sort of crumbly, but sticks together under pressure. I think it would work fine in a lube-sizer, and I like that it doen't cling to the boolit too well. Perhaps Bruce's Microwax would be just the right thing......

Thinking of the clay thickener more, I think I know why it failed. The lead is simply too soft for it. Clay grease is designed for EP, high-temp applications where microfinished, hardened steel alloy parts are crushing together. The clay will lubricate these things and track the oil to them too, but I don't think the lead boolit can stand up to it when smearing down the bore.

On to burn more powder tomorrow....

Gear

PS While I was digging around this evening, I found a stick of Javalina Alox and a can of the same that I melted out of my sizer some time ago. Even though it has proven to me more than once to not be nearly as good accuracy-wise as a properly-made batch of Felix lube, I can sure see how and why it works as well as it does: It has a microwax base (beeswax) and EP calcium soap grease made from a viscous oil.

runfiverun

04-16-2012, 02:28 AM

on the grease thing.
the directions i gave does not really mix the grease "into" the wax, so the wax is a carrier, it blends them together.
you have to heat and blend a couple of times for the wax to get the grease into equal proportions throughout it.
i will fill my stars up and let the lube i am going to use next extrude through the bleed hole.
just to give it one more fold over before it gets applied to the boolit.

bruce:
will give that a try.
what do you think of the recipe i posted in post #150?

runfiverun

04-16-2012, 02:31 AM

your mobil-1 did the same thing my j-lube did.
add more grease to the mix [the same amount you did at the beginning and work it like bread]

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 03:06 AM

Hmmm, I'll give that a go. I've been digging through the NRA cast bullet book and refreshing my memory on the lube tests that came up with the 50/50 formula. Looking through the list of things they tried, there really isn't anything new under the sun except for some synthetics. They even tried PAG and moly together! Bentone grease was mentioned in the text, but I'm not sure they tested it. I thought I remembered the best thing they found was straight, lithium soap grease but abandoned it due to it being impractical to apply, a re-read confirmed that. Another interesting tidbit, the straight lithium soap grease did well at all temperature extremes.

Gear

felix

04-16-2012, 09:36 AM

Caution: Aluminium stearate can lower ph of the lube. I have not tried various petro/natural lube mixes to see which ones do NOT create the acid condition referred to. So, assume they DO without doubt. Clean the guns. Once a good mix is found accuracy wise, place that lube on a clean section of steel for 3 months. If no discoloration of the steel, that lube is NOT too acidic for THAT steel. However, BP applications APPRECIATE a low ph lube, but then BP guns are cleaned pronto. Another downside of aluminium stearate: excessive surface tension when remelting boolits still having some lube. But, that can be good when beagling a mold which would stop finning, plus adding INstability to the lead for a wider slush stage to aid BHN increase during water dropping. Pros and cons, always! ... felix

felix

04-16-2012, 09:49 AM

Yeah, I manually mix motor mica into lubes on purpose, to keep revolters which are out of time shooting OK all day. I have several guns like that, and most neighborhood guns fit that description too. Motor mica sinks when mixing the lube on the stove, so must manually mix via finger flow for 15 minutes or so when the lube is body temperature. ... felix

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 10:52 AM

Thanks for the warning, Felix! As with any unknown mix, anything found to work in shooting must also be tested for long-term effect of lube integrity (bleed, etc.), compatibility with gunpowder, (fumes and residue), reaction to combustion (does it break down into harmful metal salts or such), health risks, association with cartridge brass, barrel steel, and probably a few key points I missed here. One nice thing about natural oils and waxes, you pretty much know what you have!

I wonder if Aluminum Stearate powder would make a good model rocket fuel?

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-16-2012, 12:44 PM

Where's the grade 5 block grease? :bigsmyl2:

MJ

P.S. Seems to me since temperature doesn't have that much of an effect on the way gunpowder burns (at least under normal hunting conditions) perhaps we should be concerned more about pressure levels. If a lube (stiff grease) goes fluid with pressure, that is not a bad thing assuming it happens after the boolit starts engraving. Besides, it's a lot easier to control chamber pressure than it is to control the weather.

Mike... what BW mirco wax did you settle on? Did you do much experimenting with BW-431?

Marlin Junky

04-16-2012, 01:04 PM

...Now you know and understand the mechanics behind the "why" when I added soft microcrystalline wax to the standard lithi-bee recipe to make MML. Unfortunately when the "cold start flyer" was erased using the microwax it also caused the lube to become instant goose poop when pressurized and warmed in certain lubesizers and under certain temperature situations (HOT). This trait did fill my goal of a good HUNTING LUBE for cool weather and it does fill the bill for 99% of my shooting here in MICHIGAN....If I lived somewhere south of here where it is warmer another approach/recipe would have been neded.

Mike,

Has the MML actually been tested in 100F weather? I think I'm going to start gathering the ingredients to concoct a batch this summer.

MJ

P.S....

Is this the recipe:

1 14 oz tube of MAG1 multipurpose lithium grease (no substitutions here)
2 lbs Microcrystalline wax BW-430
1 lb Paraffin wax
1 block Yaley solid candle dye

?

...Thank you.

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 01:38 PM

The formula I used, MML (Mike's Micro-Lithi) is simply amber lithium wheel bearing grease and (I forget which) micro-crystalline wax. Beeswax can be blended in as a percentage, and I've played with just straight micro-wax/grease and also with adding different concentrations of beeswax to the mix. It is an abolutely outstanding cold-weather lube, but once the temps get much above 40-50F, the beeswax is essential. Even with 50/50 bees/microwax mixed and then added to an equal amount of the grease, the stuff is too slick at 80F and up. Shooting long strings in hot weather will thin it to the point that purge flyers start to be a problem. I found, in my guns and loads, that lubing only one or two grooves in an attempt to eliminate the over-lubing and purge flyer thing, that I started getting leading at higher velocities. The stuff just isn't suited to hot weather in my opinion, although I think eliminating the micro-wax would help greatly. Problem is, if you do that, it trades off the cold-weather performance.

Gear

runfiverun

04-16-2012, 02:23 PM

i think i have some insight as to how lubes works.
the lube has a wet stage that is works it's best at just like an alloy.
it also has a solid and a mush stage.
mu three part lubes have been working because there is a wet stage for the whole bbl.
the hydraulic fluid is wet at the throat chamber end, the lith takes over shortly there after and the wax is doing the work at the end once it gets enough friction heat built up to flow near the muzzle.
this is desirable also so that it is soft enough to jettison at the muzzle.
it works the same as felix lube where the castor oil starts out the wet.
we know that viscosity is the key here to a lube working.
but it is essential because of the wet stage.
look at mml winter use right?
it's because it is that close to a wet stage right now.
and why others are good in heat or hot bbls it's thier wet stage being reached.
i don't think the ingredients are as important as when they have thier wet/flowing temperature.
we know pressure also influences temperature and that harder lubes "flow" better under these conditions i think it is because they have enough pressure/heat to go into thier liquid stage and maintain it.
in the cold the lubes are doing thier part it is the last part of the bbl that the lube is failing [to go into the wet] for us
throwing off the timing of ejection in the bbl node causing the flyer.
paper and copper don't always have these issues because of the constant friction down the bbl and the pressure from the powder is all the way to the muzzle.
i think that raising the wet in step one and two might cover the third part that little bit longer giving it time to flow further down the bbl.
part of our proplem arises from the pressure behind the boolit is only helping to wet the lube for some of it's trip down the bbl then is falling off.
this is often why we see leading at the muzzle, and the cure is to make the lube softer.
it's not to add more lube to "get down there" it's to decrease the temp at which the lube will stay wet longer.

this would clearly explain why gears lubes were leaving behind the gunk and causing leading.
they never had a wet stage, only a mush stage at best.

we aren't looking for a wonder lube so much as temp stability and enough wet to carry the bbl.
i know that viscosity seems to be the most important ingredient in lube, but this is not as important as when the lube[s] components go into [or are] the wet stage.

felix

04-16-2012, 03:06 PM

R5R, your post is correct. Only some unknown polymer will cover our wet needs all the way through start to finish. The cellulose component of that synthetic, as mentioned in a previous post, will keep any excess wet purged on a per shot basis. These are the requirements for the guru having access to the world's polymer databases in preparing a lube suitable for all calibers, all ambients, etc. ... felix

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 04:27 PM

So, R5R, I guess you confirm my thoughts that a lube has to melt as it goes? I like you explanation, it makes a lot of sense. Lube must be dynamic to perform the multiple job descriptions from ignition to the time it says "Geronimo". Now, why didn't you stop me from using the bentone? :kidding:

Now that I've proved what I think is beyond any doubt that the non-melting lubes don't work, what's next? Beeswax seems to do a fine job of "wetting" the last half to third if the barrel, so we need either a multi-viscosity base oil, or a base oil and a thicker oil, or even grease. Starting to sound like 4-1-1 lube to me. I think FWFL works so well partly because the castor oil has a pretty low viscosity index, and thins quickly with temperture. Plasticizing it tends to improve the VI, at least in the "feel" test at different feel-able tempertures, and then there's the mineral oil to provide that initial "wet". Lanolin probably helps the whole process along as a built-in "fudge factor" to cover any viscosity "holes" that may arise in the system. A good trick might be to experiment with substitutes for the mineral oil that keep a lower viscosity in cold weather and see if that doesn't improve winter performance some. A midrange lube might help the Zombie lube not lead through the middle and to the end.

I got back from the range a while ago, sending ten of the Mobil grease/beeswax/carnauba/ATF mix boolits into almost the same hole, even better than the Zombie lube because the group was a tad tighter and there was NO first-shot flyer. I cleaned and prepped the bore with straight grease and patched it out before shooting, so at least that part worked. Dadgum thing washed some patches of lead down toward the muzzle, though, I can see it for about the last eight inches of barrel, not a heavy buildup, but definitely too much. The FWFL doesn't do this with this same batch of boolits and powder charge, worst leading I ever got with it in this gun is a fine line in the trailing edge crease that was the same after one shot as after two hundred.

Still some work to do here, and maintain the muzzle jettison thing and do what it takes to "keep any excess wet purged on a per shot basis", which is as critical to accuracy as any of this.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-16-2012, 05:03 PM

So, R5R, I guess you confirm my thoughts that a lube has to melt as it goes? I like you explanation, it makes a lot of sense. Lube must be dynamic to perform the multiple job descriptions from ignition to the time it says "Geronimo". Now, why didn't you stop me from using the bentone? :kidding:

Now that I've proved what I think is beyond any doubt that the non-melting lubes don't work, what's next? Beeswax seems to do a fine job of "wetting" the last half to third if the barrel, so we need either a multi-viscosity base oil, or a base oil and a thicker oil, or even grease. Starting to sound like 4-1-1 lube to me. I think FWFL works so well partly because the castor oil has a pretty low viscosity index, and thins quickly with temperture. Plasticizing it tends to improve the VI, at least in the "feel" test at different feel-able tempertures, and then there's the mineral oil to provide that initial "wet". Lanolin probably helps the whole process along as a built-in "fudge factor" to cover any viscosity "holes" that may arise in the system. A good trick might be to experiment with substitutes for the mineral oil that keep a lower viscosity in cold weather

Vaseline?

...Still some work to do here, and maintain the muzzle jettison thing and do what it takes to "keep any excess wet purged on a per shot basis", which is as critical to accuracy as any of this.

Gear

Perhaps the configuration of the lube grooves and the amount of lube held should vary with season? It might be beneficial to design a hot weather vs. cold weather boolit to compliment a couple different lube viscosities.

MJ

felix

04-16-2012, 05:15 PM

Survival Bill

04-16-2012, 05:24 PM

Ok I am still new to this have done allot of reading but what about Liquid floor wax for boolit lube?

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 05:26 PM

Ok I am still new to this have done allot of reading but what about Liquid floor wax for boolit lube?

Rooster Laboratories "Jacket" tumble lube.

Gear

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 05:45 PM

I think ya'll got it figured out well. Vaseline is very good, like you say, MJ. Think custom polymers, though, for the ultimate. If anyone should meet a bone-fide lube designer for real, tell him the specs needed, or shoot him to this board/thread. ... felix

I've tried to quantify the specs, I guess I don't understand it well enough to put it into terms a tribologist would understand. What would you say?

Following the Tribological system, we would need to quantify several things, mainly type of motion, speed, temperatures, load and the operating environment. Some specific things we'd need to determine would be linear speed (simple), load (figure both peak chamber pressure and the shear pressure of the side of the lands on the boolit engrave through the peak acceleration period, this would have to be a range due to different numbers of lands, land depth, twist rate, pressure/speed curve, and bore diameter) contaminants such as powder residue, and the full range of temperature the lube itself experiences, the oxidation requirements, evaporation requirements, and so on.

I stopped at step two, when I did a simple calculation on the surface speed of a boolit at 2K fps and compared it to the fastest speed-rating of any grease I could find, one that had a base viscosity of 50 cSt at 22C. IIRC the boolit exceeded the speed rating by over 20 times. Even straight oil at 5 weight on plain bearings with a 2" diameter journal at 10,000 RPM doesn't come close to the surface speed of a boolit near the muzzle of a high-powered rifle. Obviously we shoot lubes not technically rated for the speeds or surfaces involved, and it works sometimes, so there must be a lot more to it than I can understand.

Gear

bruce381

04-16-2012, 07:13 PM

""If anyone should meet a bone-fide lube designer for real, tell him the specs needed""

What do you think I am chopped liver??

What specs??

All the things you ask for are based on guess's and idea's.

I have offered to get whatever samples any one wants but you have to very specifc, do you know how many syn wax's or PEG esters ther are countless.

You guys have all kinds of ideas that are all over the place no one other than me would have any interest in this cause there is NO comercial value No Lube engineer I know would waste time with this other than me where this is a personal hobby.

Ask 1 question at a time i will try to answer.

bruce

bruce381

04-16-2012, 07:16 PM

by the way all the test samples MUST be shot to evaluate working or not varying additves or base oils etc will change performance with NO read across in that you cannot say this oil will be better than that oil. I have seen NO data base where additves or oils are classed as to what they do in a boolit lube with if there is one please send me a link
bruce

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 09:04 PM

One thing this is NOT is straightforward from a layman's standpoint.

First, there's the issue of understanding the mechanics behind a sucessful boolit lube in a specific gun under specific conditions. I don't have a full understanding yet, and most "lube cooks" don't even have a clue. The few people who do have an inkling of this either keep mum because they're protecting their livelyhood, haven't found this site/thread, or don't feel like sharing. It's very difficult to gather any kind of empirical data here because we have no way to observe the activity inside a barrel at one million frames per second. Just being able to see a boolit exit the muzzle with different lube formulas at a high frame rate would provide huge amounts of insight, but the best we can do is secondary observation. Shooting through cardboard sheets at close range can give an idea of how the lube flings off (or doesn't), targets can tell us a little bit by group dispersion, bore condition after shooting tells us a little, but ultimately our understanding is only the result of interpreting clues rather than direct measurement like you can do with a four-ball test. It's the old "try it and see what happens" thing rather than measure, reference, calculate, compound, and test.

We know the lube has to go through a 1/8" hole under 40 psi at 70F. We know it has to stick to lead so we can lube and load boolits, but we also know it has to fling off completely at the muzzle (or stick forever). If we choose fling-off, we have to figure out what condition exactly it's in the moment the grooves pop past the muzzle crown, and figure the mass, radial velocity, and "adherence" factor. Once we do that, we need to determine what viscosity it needs to be within a 100-degree window before it's fired so it will survive in the grooves until the boolit is engraved, then figure how much it needs to thin out by the time it gets to the muzzle to match the speed requirements of the lead/steel interface. In order to do that, we must also know how much friction is taking place, how much film thickness we need, the specific heat of the lube, the melt rate of the lube, how long the boolit is in the barrel, how much force is exerted on the lands by the boolit, and so on. Heck, we're not even sure exactly WHAT film thickness works best, what viscosity exactly is needed at what point in the barrel, and if we did it would change when we move to the next gun. It's maddening to try to grasp from that perspective. The only way I can go about it is build on formulas that work, try to do some failure analysis, make educated guesses about how to fix it, and devise experiements to test those guesses. When one starts talking about long-chain polymers, I have no idea. I know that shear breaks them down quickly, but that's about it.

Gear

Marlin Junky

04-16-2012, 09:06 PM

bruce381

04-16-2012, 09:36 PM

in industry animal (lard or tallow) are commom oil addtives to reduce friction, increaase slip and lower COF(coefficient of friction) as well as vegtable and seed oils.
5-10% will give good effect.

Oposite effect would be ZDDP (zinc di thio phosphate) same stuff as in motor oil and some greases, which will form a tuff/thick hard to remove film on steel and will increase COF

geargnasher

04-16-2012, 10:07 PM

Is it even possible to "overcome" (for lack of a better word) the coefficient of friction between steel and a Pb alloy, shearing at 0-2500+ fps in its elastic state, hold back 30-40K PSI and release completely from the lube grooves at the muzzle... all this in a range of temperatures from below freezing to 120F? Sounds like a job for the paper patch. ;-)

What exactly is possible and what can realistically be produced?

MJ

If you find out, let me know.:D Bruce sent us some Lubrizol Syn HTO which is, as best I can describe it, a synthetic tallow. It's a long-chain polymer used to increase the pressure rating of cutting fluids and oils, basically an EP additive. Me playing with it without a graduate degree in polymer technology is akin to giving a monkey a Rolex, but it's fun to dink with this stuff!

MML is one example of something that works in low ambient temperatures. Felix lube, the original recipe, works very well in middle to high ambient temperatures, and isn't too bad in the cold once you get a shot or two down the barrel. There are others that work too, but none do it all that I've been able to test.

Gear

runfiverun

04-16-2012, 10:16 PM

that just helped me immensely.

bruce:
the problem we have [me anyway] is i have no way to give those numbers.
if we were to target say 1900-2000 fps in a 10 twist bbl something like 130-140,000 rpm.
with 45k pressure behind it.
that really is all the information we can provide.
mainly because that is all we know.
we do need the lube to be able to go into a semi melted state from start to finish or to thin out as it goes down the bbl.
felix might be able, definately would be able, to give more specifics than the rest of us.

i am looking at what i know works.
the peramiters of what makes a good lube i laid out on page 12.
the lube i made is in post #150 it does work quite well
but i have only been able to test it in temperatures from 35 to 65 degrees.
and for one 100 shot group over an 8 hour period.
it so far has performed very well, as good as, or better than any other lube i have made or tried.
i really don't know any more than that.
my equipment is limited to a lab grade scale,a micro wave,two hand blenders,and a gas or electric stove.

i/we do really appreciate your help, but we aren't sure what information/feedback you need.