Elmer Kieth #452423 238 gr ??

[FireFly]

Hi,

Simple question, maybe! Is the H&G #502/B-C#1102 = Elmer Kieth #452423 ???

Is this a 238 gr 45 colt bullet? Many Thanks

[MikeS]

I don't know if they're identical clones, but they are fairly close. It looks like the H&G 502 (or Ballisticast 1102) has a wider lube groove than the Lyman boolit. I have a 2 cavity Lyman, but it has the changed rounded lube groove, rather than the square lube groove that Keith originally designed, and is still on the 502/1102. I don't know if the square lube groove version of the Lyman mould has a groove the same size as the H&G.

I don't know if you know the history of Elmer Keith's designs, but basically he always liked a square lube groove, and Lyman originally made them that way. Somewhere along the line they changed it to a rounded lube groove to make the boolits drop from the mould easier, and Keith got real upset about the change, so he went to H&G and had them make his designs, and they kept the proper square lube groove. If there are any differences between the boolits, I would say that Keith probably made some changes he felt were needed. Also, his major complaint with the rounded grooves wasn't their shape, but rather that they held less lube.

These days there is discussion about whether or not the large lube groove is still needed, considering that Keith was designing these way before the NRA 50/50 lube formula came out, a formula many consider one of the best lubes out there. Like any argument there are folks that stick to Keith's ideas, and others that don't.

What kind of gun are you going to be shooting these out of? Both boolits you mention were designed for the 45 Auto Rim, a revolver cartridge. They might work in a 1911, or they might not, depending on the individual gun. It was the 452423 & BD45 that made me decide upon the 45-250A. I almost forgot to answer your question, yes it's a 238gr 45 caliber boolit. They can be used in a 45Colt, but as I said they were really designed for the 45AR.

[FireFly]

Many Thanks Mr. MikeS informative response. This forum is a better place because of you.

[MtGun44]

Lyman is back to flat bottomed lube grooves in Elmer's designs these days, and is doing
a much better job of keeping close to the original design. Some of them over the years
have been absolutely amazingly far from the original design, and those molds seem to
live forever.

Bill

[FireFly]

Thanks MtGun44, good to know.

[ballisti-cast]

Mike S pretty much nailed that one. The only thing I can add is that I believe Lyman also reduced the size of the driving bands specifically the front one which Keith didn't like as the front driving band is critical in accuracy. The H&G cutters I have to make the molds are un-modified from Keith's original design.

[FireFly]

Hi ballisti-cast, very nice to hear from you! I've been waiting for samples of this cast bullet. I intend to use it a 1911 45 autopistol.

Question; what is the correct term for a bullet that is intended for the 1911 45 acp autopistol?

If the bullet has no crimp groove is that a big clue? The crimp grove might cause problems with set-back in the 1911.

Many Thanks

[StrawHat]

I have no knowledge of the differences or wimilarities between the Lyamn and the H&G mold but..

Here is an interesting article about the Lyman and the 45 ACP.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

[FireFly]

Thanks StrawHat, have enjoyed reading Char-Gar's "Texas Love Story".

[Char-Gar]

At some point in time Lyman changed Elmer's square (well sorta) lube groove to one with a round body. That drove Elmer nuts and he started recommending the H&G versions of his bullets as the real deal. For the most part I could not tell much if any difference in performance between the round and square grooves. However, with 452423, I do notice a difference, or at least I think I do.

[b52fizzle]

Extremely interested in this design especially those that lean towards the original design, would prefer no crimp groove for use in my 1911. However either way, I am looking for samples of any kind, would it be possible to order from you guys as I do not cast yet, and trying to find what works, ultimate design for me would be between 235-250gr double lube groove three equal driving bands and 80% meplat and no crimp groove, I know I can have it made, just wondering if anything similar to try, the 452423 is pretty close, just need some to test out. Please contact through PM or email b52fizzle at gmail.com, thanks any and all help would be greatly appreciated

[FireFly]

My interest would be no crimp groove (concerned about set-back, although this may be more of a problem with revolver rounds), a meplat between 65% to 70% (65%> maplat> 70%), three equal drive bands (as long as the crimp groove/lube groove does not create a problem with the taper crimp), and being able to have a hollow-point (larger than a primmer) that will puts the cast bullet between 200-225 gr. Also, two more very important items; being able to feed in a modern 1911 45 autopistol and group well at 100 yards (Mr. Elmer Kieth wanted long range accuracy, 100 yards is "good for me")..... How did I do? EK #452423 w/HP

[b52fizzle]

Where can I find some need to work up loads and function tests not casting yet so looking to test some out and see if its what I'm looking for .

[StrawHat]

...Where can I find some...

In the Swapping and Selling section there is a want to buy area and a Boolit Exchange area. Try posting there.

[MikeS]

My interest would be no crimp groove (concerned about set-back, although this may be more of a problem with revolver rounds), a meplat between 65% to 70% (65%> maplat> 70%), three equal drive bands (as long as the crimp groove/lube groove does not create a problem with the taper crimp), and being able to have a hollow-point (larger than a primmer) that will puts the cast bullet between 200-225 gr. Also, two more very important items; being able to feed in a modern 1911 45 autopistol and group well at 100 yards (Mr. Elmer Kieth wanted long range accuracy, 100 yards is "good for me")..... How did I do? EK #452423 w/HP

I would say if you want to get a high quality mould that's exactly what you want, email (or PM) Tom at Accurate Molds, and tell him everything you want in the mould, other than the HP stuff, Tom doesn't make HP moulds, so the HP stuff will need to be added, and Erik @ hollowpointmolds.com is the man to do the HP work. I would recommend you get a brass mould from Tom, as once you're done getting it, and adding the HP stuff you're going to have an expensive mould (but one that's exactly what you want), so you might as well make it from the better material. It will last your lifetime, and several others if given proper care.

[MikeS]

B52: remember, an auto is different than a revolver. The idea of the 3 equal size driving bands is something that's really more geared toward revolvers as they have a throat they need to go thru before getting to the barrel, and having a driving band sticking out of the brass was to help align the boolit into the throats. An auto doesn't have the same kind of throats, and gets to the rifling much quicker than a revolver does, so you're probably just as well off with a boolit with a single lube groove, and 2 driving bands. I recently got a mould from Tom , his 45-250A design, as I too wanted a boolit with a large meplat, and this is one that has that, and is designed for an auto, not a revolver. If you would like some samples of it, as well as some sample 452423's send me a PM with your mailing address, and I'll send you a few of each.

[Char-Gar]

I do not see the purpose in doing away with the crimp groove to shoot 452423 in the autopistol. If you taper crimp on the front driving band just below the shoulder of the bullet there is no problem. The bullet will stay put. The crimp groove also holds lube which is a good thing and you can always load the bullet for a revolver as well.

If a barrel has any throating at all, it will feed this bullet. In a GI barrel sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.

The meplat on this bullet does add significantly to the whomp when it hits. I have taken several deer with this bullet in the autopistol and it works well. No deer was shot much over 35 yards.

In a good sixgun, this bullet holds it's accuracy well out to 100 yards, past that it gets wobbley.

I load this bullet over 4.5 to 4.8 grains of Bullseye depending on how I feel that day. I would not go past 4.8.

[MtGun44]

+1 on MikeS' latest comments - remember this a revolver design that some have had good results
in the semi autos.

Frankly, a H&G 68 is the gold standard for semiauto 1911s.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

When I was shooting Bullseye, I tended to favor Lyman 452460 although, H&G 68 had plenty of fans. I thought the longer and slightly heavier Lyman design should do a little better. Some folks used different powder charges for 25 and 50 yards, but I shot the heavier 50 yard charge at 25 yards also. I didn't like the change in recoil. I wanted to get used to one and stay with it.

I also shot many of 68s and to tell the truth I never saw any difference in the accuracy or score with either bullet. They both were sterling peformers in the 1911 pistol. Whipping along at service velocity (850 fps), they are also both good social and field bullets.

I started shooting 452423 in the 1911 because it was the only mold I had. It proved out to work just fine, but in terms of pure accuracy, there are many designs that will shoot rings around it. 452460 and 68 being two of them.

[FireFly]

Thanks Char-Gar, do you have any experience with the "other" H&G #68 cast bullet moulds?

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/hgmoldchart.htm by Thomas Dugas

#68 Heavy Specials 219-232-231 gr (the last one #68S I believe is a plan base extended #68).

Also, I believe BD, of BD45acp fame, recommended a Saeco #058 clone at 215 gr. There was a Group Buy of this clone I cannot find it. Wonder if it still available and who made it.

Thanks for your knowledge and help.

[Von Dingo]

Pertaining to the square bottom, vs. round bottom lube grooves. I recall reading that in higher pressure loads, the square bottom handles the pressure better. Having to do with the crush factor induced by the pressure, and holding the lube better and longer. It sounded good from here, not knowing the difference personally.

[MikeS]

When I went with the AM45-250A mould because I wanted it for a gun other than a 1911, and I wanted a boolit that would feed better than the 452423, and because of the pistol it would be loaded in (a Jericho 941 AKA Baby Eagle) I needed the .005 shoulder between the nose and the driving bands, otherwise I might have gone with the BD45. Here's drawings of the two boolits: (Sorry for the large size of the 250A!)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33510159/45-250A.png

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33510159/453423.jpeg