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View Full Version : Problem at the range today.



bigborefan
03-30-2007, 02:07 PM
I took my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps to the range this morning and have a major problem. First off, it's a 45/90 that I load myself and cast my own bullets for. I was pleasantly surprised that it grouped well at 100yds for first time out considering that these are my first loads for it. The only problem(and it is a major one) , I first fired some smokeless loads that I had loaded for it. The fifth shot of my first group split the case vertical about an 1 1/2" in the center of the case. I then proceeded to shoot my blackpowder loads and the same thing happened again. The cases that I am using are PMC 45/90 cases that were loaded without sizing. The loads are mild in both smokeless and blackpowder, 76-78 grs of Swiss 1.5 with a .060 veg wad and 535gr Postel bullet. For it to split like that on first fire forming, it sounds like the brass is too small for the chamber or the chamber is too large for the brass. Anyone have any ideas or have had the same experiance? I really enjoyed my first experiance with my new Sharps 1874 but the splits really put a damper on it fast.

SharpsShooter
03-30-2007, 02:22 PM
I believe a chamber cast will tell you more of what you need to know regarding your rifles dimensions. I'm not sure where I heard/read it, but it rings in the back of my mind that PMC had a run of very brittle brass that had to be annealed to make it usable. If that is true, possibly you have some of that lot and annealling them may solve your problem.

It sounds like you are enjoying it and it is going to shoot well for you too. I'd try annealing and have another go at it myself.

SS

montana_charlie
03-30-2007, 04:44 PM
The fifth shot of my first group split the case vertical about an 1 1/2" in the center of the case.
Take the first four cases (that did not split) and measure them in all dimensions possible.
Compare the results with known .45/90 chamber dimensions.
Compare them with unfired brass from the same lot.

If the rifle's chamber is wrong, 'something' should show up.

It might help if you described that smokeless load...I dunno.
CM

Bullshop
03-30-2007, 05:40 PM
Is that brass turned or drawn. That seems to be a reguler thing with turned brass. Get ya a box of the starline brass.
bic/bs

powderburnerr
03-30-2007, 05:49 PM
I am kinda with shapshooter on this , I saw something on the brass somewhere as well
.
and Charlies idea to mike the two is a good idea as well . If the chamber is out of

spec enough to split brass it would seem to me you could see the difference or

feel it . you could rotate the split cases 90 degrees and see if they rechamber ,

that might also tell you if your chamber is screwy ...

And try a couple annealed cases and see if the problem still exists
...............Dean

bigborefan
03-30-2007, 05:56 PM
Sharpshooter, I think you may be right about the PMC brittle brass. I emailed PMC to get there input into my problem. You are right about me enjoying myself with the new Sharps. I have been reloading and casting bullets for over 35 years and blackpowder cartridges seem like an enjoyable challenge. I've shot silhouette, benchrest,skeet and even class3. Now blackpowder completes the circle.
Montana Charlie, I took the measurements from one of the fired cases and a virgin case and the results are as follows.
FIRED CASE .482 close to mouth VIRGIN CASE .470 close to mouth
.491 at the middle .486 at the middle
.503 at the base .500 at the base

As you can see the middle of the case expanded about .005 which sounds reasonable to me. The smokeless load was 35grs of SR4759. It's the starting load recommended in Lymans 48th Reloading Handbook. Bullet seating of the ones tested were at the front band. The smokeless loads were roll crimped while the black powder ones were slightly taper crimp. (and I do mean slightly) I never got to try the loads in blackpowder where the bullet was seated touching the lands.

bigborefan
03-30-2007, 06:14 PM
Below is a picture of the rupture. With it being in the center of the case, how do you anneal the case without ruining it? As I understand annealing, they advise not to get the area of the base too hot otherwise the case is ruined. Will annealing the case mouth have any affect on a split this far down?

montana_charlie
03-30-2007, 06:49 PM
bbf,
I just measured one of my fired cases for comparison with yours.
I get ... Mouth - .482; Middle - .495; Base - .502
The 'middle' measurement is touchy because the case changes diameter pretty noticeably over a short distance, so I took my measurement at 1.130 inches from the front of the rim.

Mine is not a "standard Pedersoli chamber" because the gun was rechambered from it's original .45/70 to .45/90 using a custom reamer. But my cases seem to be 'fatter at the waist' than yours, and they don't split open.

To anneal the 'middles' of your cases, you will probably have to have them sitting in water to protect the head.
I would set them in water about three quarters of an inch deep, and heat the middle until it just barely turns blue. Then I would pause a few seconds (with the flame removed) to let the heat travel up toward the mouth before tipping them over to stop the process.

Having the case spinning slowly would be a good idea, but I don't know how to accomplish that in water.

If you didn't buy many cases, the best bet might be to replace them.
Should you decide to do that, I might take a few off of your hands. I need a small number for making up some gauges and dummy rounds...not for shooting.
CM

SharpsShooter
03-30-2007, 06:53 PM
Your picture appears to me to be crack that typically is seen on very aged brass that has seen many firings and become work hardened. Annealing would solve that issue in short order, I believe. You can anneal the body of the cases if reasonable care is observed. The method I am familiar with is to stand the cases in a pan of water. You adjust the waters height in the pan to determine the amount of case you you wish to anneal. The water acts as a heatsink for the base and as a quench for the annealed case. I would stand them in a pan of water 3/4" deep and try 5 cases. It is worth a try.

SS



LOL:-D

MC we posted almost the same annealing idea at the same time:drinks:

Bear Claw
03-30-2007, 06:59 PM
Hi

First I am no x-pert but like you I have been reloading a long time, I have had case failure's like yours in .357 mag and .44 mag those cases had been reloaded many time's.

It might help if you could mesure the wall thickness on your brass and compare it with another brand, every case that has failed me like that was well shot-out and getting very thin.

My own opinion is that you have some bad brass, and that is based just on what you posted, and I doubt it is your's or the gun's fault, as to the anneling (sp) I have only done bottleneck cases and can not offer any idea's
but I would'nt think it could hurt as long as you stay away from the web of the case.
P.S. I seem to recall hearing something about pmc brass having problems
as well, anyway JMHO & I am sure some of the old moss backs here can help
HTH Bear Claw:drinks:

Baron von Trollwhack
03-30-2007, 07:17 PM
Why would you even want to try to salvage that brass? BvT

Scrounger
03-30-2007, 07:23 PM
Below is a picture of the rupture. With it being in the center of the case, how do you anneal the case without ruining it? As I understand annealing, they advise not to get the area of the base too hot otherwise the case is ruined. Will annealing the case mouth have any affect on a split this far down?

You anneal the cases BEFORE they split! It's too late for that one, it's toast. But annealing your cases will keep them from getting work-hardened and split like this one.

bigborefan
03-30-2007, 07:33 PM
Thanks to all who responded to my problem. I go to a number of gun sites, but this site beats them all for knowledgeable members. Charlie, I checked a couple of my fired cases at the 1.130 distance and I come up with .493 which is only .002" from yours and right on at the case mouth and only .001" difference at the base so I believe the chambers OK. I'm going to wait and see if PMC emails me about their thoughts. I bought 200 cases @ $60 a hundred. The price was right and I had heard that PMC cases were soft enough that annealing was not necessary. In all the years of reloading, I too have just seen splits like these on old tired brass. I have loaded 458 Mag and 45/70 cases for years and had never seen splits. Charlie, if PMC doesn't want to make a trade for new brass, I'll send you a few for your dummy rounds.

omgb
03-30-2007, 10:10 PM
Send me a PM and we can exchange a few cases. I have some RP cases that wre extruded from 45-70 that I got from Buffalo Arms that I've shot in my Pedersoli and have had zero problems with. I also have some Nickle Plated Starline cases and some HDS cases too. Again, no problems. However, I also have some PMC cases that came in two boxes of factory 45-90 Express Loads (light bullets designed to feed LAs) These are not so good. They tend to split and they tend to swell and not want to chamber.

One more thing you should do before trying anythng else. Dissassemble your seating, sizing and expanding dies and give them a very careful cleaning inside. Use some of that Scotch Brite material and buff the inside of the dies. I've found that even a tiny bit of grit can score a case just enough to cause a split. Most likely this is not the case here ,but it's easy enough to do and it eliminates one variable. Check your lube pad too if you sue one. There's no telling what may be lurkin on/in it that just might scratch the brass.

Any way, PM me if you like and we can do a swap. I'll test yours in my Pedersoli and you test mine in yours.:drinks:

crossfireoops
03-30-2007, 10:11 PM
Lose that brass.....it's not worth foolin' with.

Pedersoli chambers ( and I've worked with more'n a few run towards the "capacious" upper SAMMI limits.......this is a good thing......more powder !

The necks,...? Well, I'd like to see them a bit more modest, but that's the way they do 'em.

Starline's a good way to go......but will require fairly deep annealing. Cookie pan 1/2 to 3/4" of COLD water dittos, tip 'em when colors uniform.

Gullo's (Buffalo Arms) drawn to 90 Win. .45-70 is great stuff, to.

Glad the rig's runnin' so strong outta' the box for 'ya....and this case splitting is just a little "bump".....easily resolved.

Regards, GTC

omgb
03-30-2007, 11:21 PM
Here's a very quick and simple way to anneal the brass. All you need is a candle, some towels and some water. First, light the candle. It should be one of those candles that is about 1-2" thick and has a good sized flame. Dampen the towels with water. Hold the case between your fingers and rotate the part you want annealed in the flame until the case is too warm to hold, typically about 10-15 seconds and then wipe it off on the damp towel. This anneals the case just enough to prevent splits without making it too soft. I know, I know, it sounds too damn simple to work. What about all of that "till it glows cherry red" stuff and then "tip over in a pan of cool water"? Well, that works too but it's over-kill and it just may over soften your cases. This works better and it's easier. Try it on a few cases and see if it cures your problem.

powderburnerr
03-30-2007, 11:51 PM
I had a whole lot of 110 cases made from 348 brass , the cases split upon first sizing and those that didnt cracked the first firing . I sent them all back . I had talked to a few people about annealing them and even after they were annealed they still split .. you could see in strong light the stress marks on the brass from forming it. . the time and hassle wasnt worth it as they were just a batch of poor cases . best to chuck them and get some good .the simplest solution... Dean

bigborefan
03-31-2007, 07:40 AM
The place where I bought the brass guarantees satisfaction of his brass or send it back for a refund. I will call them Monday morning to return the last 100 that I purchased from them. Then I'll order some Starline brass. What kills me about this brass is that although they split down the middle of the case, the necks were soft enough to not need annealing. The cases that I fired showed no blacking on the outside that you would normally see if the brass was hard at the mouths.
Another bad thing about this brass is the lenght of cases. The virgin brass is 2.385" in length and end up 2.375 after firing. In other words, they end up about .015" short of what they should be.
OMGB, I thank you for the offer but I think I'll try to return this brass and if I can't, I'll PM you about making a small trade. The candle trick sounds like a good experiment with the remainder that I have loaded once I either shoot or take apart.
I have read many articles on annealing over the years and the part that bothers me is that if not done right, you can do more damage than what you started with. About 50% advise getting the cases to a red glow and an equal number claim that when you take them to a red glow, you've already damaged the case. Very confusing. I may be wrong but I think the best method is to rotate the case with a variable speed drill while putting a torch to the upper third of the case til it starts to turn blue, then quench into cold water.
Two more questions: Would the Winchester stretched brass from Buffalo Arms be better than Starline as far as softness or would they be the same?
Second, would you shoot the remaining 88 that I have loaded or would you just take them apart? Is there any danger of doing damage to the rifle?

Buckshot
03-31-2007, 08:27 AM
...............PMC 45-70 and 45-90 were available at both Midway and Graf & son some time back but then disappeared, and Midway said, "No re-stock". SOunds like customer satisfaction issues maybe?

..............Buckshot

omgb
03-31-2007, 08:56 AM
I'd pull the remaining 88. As big a PITA as it will be, if one of those cases ruptured farther down or if one sepatated and lodged in the barrel you could have an even bigger PITA to deal with.

The candle annealing actually has solid science behind it. If one uses a thermal crayon one will find that 15 seconds in a candle brings the case to the right temp for annealing. Going to red or even dark blue is actually likely to over-soften the case and you may have trouble with geting a good snug fit on the bullet.

Handloader magazine did an article on this method back in the summer or fall of last year. There tests paralleled my experience exactly.

The stretched brass from BA is actually Remington Peters not Winchester. I think it's pretty dang good brass. I've gotten 15 reloads out of a batch I bought 3 years ago with very few case failures so far ... maybe 10 out of 400 cases.

I have a had a couple of blown cases just as you experienced. Most were with PMC brass and most happened along crease lines; scars put on the brass by my failure to properly remove excess lube before sizing. A few were due to scratches put on the case wall by a dirty die and some were without obvious cause. If it were me, I'd return the brass and buy some new stuff. Life is too short to live with crap when nirvana is only an internet purchase away. :Fire: