Pedersoli 1874 Quigley 45-90, Black Powder Only?

[MC One Shot]

The Pedersoli 1874 Quigley in 45-90 is marked "Black Powder Cartridge Only" on the bottom flat of the barrel forward of the nose cap. Is this a must or is it a Pedersoli recommendation? There web site does not mention anything about being BP only. I read that people are loading smokeless powder for this rifle. Is there variants to this rifle for BP only and for smokeless? I would like to load with Accurate 5744 and 535 gr Postells. Advise welcomed. Thank you.

[montana_charlie]

The gun is produced for the BPCR market.
The gun was proofed in Italy for pressure typical of black powder loads.
The manufacturer warrants the gun to be suitable for black powder loads, and will stand behind that warranty if it fails.

The 45/70 Government cartridge has been standardized by SAAMI, and there are established smokeless powder loads for that chambering.
The 45/90 is not recognized by SAMMI. Therefore, there are no specifications for physical dimensions or chamber pressures to be adhered to, and no pressure data (that I have seen) to be used as guidance.

There is a 'Single Shot' forum for general discussions of single-shot guns. It is reasonable to expect that people using smokeless in a ninteenth century design would frequent that discussion group.

This section is for discussing the unique attributes of black powder loads in cartridge guns.

When you have finished exploring smokeless loads in your Sharps, we'll be here to further your education.

CM

[omgb]

Years ago I bought my Pedersoli 45-90 and spoke at length with a guy who was their USA rep (Dick something or other) about smokeless. He told me that my gun was proofed for loads up to 28,000 psi. In other words, a tad hotter than a trapdoor but far less than a Ruger or Browning falling block. With that in mind, I have loaded and fired lots of 5744 and a 520grn LBT bullet. The exact load I now can't recall but it was in the neighborhood of 28 grains. The load is actually on the AA load site if you want to look it up. In the end, I went back to black with a 10% charge of RL7, a duplex load just as the guys on the cusp of the 20th century used. You cannot use it in competition, but it does allow a whole day of shooting out in the dry desert heat without a fouling problem.

The duplex loads are more accurate at the 200+ yard mark than the 5744 loads ever were. The 5744 was convenient, that was its only advantage. The thing is, the 45-90 is longer simply for the use of BP, the 45-70 is a much better case for smokeless but, you don"t want to use those in your 45-90. They can mess up your chamber and cause you a lot of grief.

[oldred]

I have two 45/90s and I shoot smokeless in both of them, they do fine with 5744, H4895 and Varget using 500 grain Lee cast bullets or 400 grain Remington jacketed bullets. It's common to hear that the 45/90 offers no advantage over 45/70 when shooting smokeless but that's not true, you can expect about 200 FPS more velocity at the same pressures when loading these bigger cases with the right powder. This round was factory loaded with smokeless from around the turn of the century until factory loadings were suspended some years ago and in a modern rifle there is no real reason to shoot BP unless you just want to. I have found this caliber to be every bit as accurate as 45/70 smokeless loads and there is no reason for it to be inherently in-accurate when loaded with smokeless in spite of the common suggestion that it is a BP only round, after all it's not all that much different than a 45/70. If you want to shoot smokeless powder in that rifle then do so and don't worry about it as long as you stay within the pressure rating of 28000 PSI, I think with a 500 grain bullet and the right powder that 28000 PSI is going to be a bit uncomfortable on the shoulder anyway!



I think the 45/90 is a very under-rated cartridge and was probably more deserving of a come-back than the 45/70 from a performance point of view, but of course there were many more 45/70 rifles in existence and the 45/70 ammo was still in production so I guess from a purely business angle the 45/70 made more sense.

[oldred]

YI have loaded and fired lots of 5744 and a 520grn LBT bullet. The exact load I now can't recall but it was in the neighborhood of 28 grains. The load is actually on the AA load site if you want to look it up.



Unfortunately that 5744 load is no longer listed on AA's site and the only 45/90 listings they have now are for the new(er) Blackhorn 209 powder.



The Blackhorn 209 is a good powder for this cartridge and a top load yields a full case of powder right at the 28000 PSI mark when using a 500 grain cast bullet, this is the load I shot and I liked it a lot but they have data for lighter bullets also. The BH 209 is sold as a BP substitute but IMO it's more of a very bulky low pressure smokeless powder that can also be used in muzzle loaders (the in-line variety anyway) rather than a true BP sub. This stuff is not corrosive, cleans with solvent based cleaning products and does not foul like BP. It would be a great powder for use in these big cases with heavy bullets except for the fact it's just too danged expen$ive! About $30 for 10 ounces and in spite of the sales pitch that it's so bulky that 10 ounces is still a lot of powder it still does not go very far when shooting a 45/90!

[omgb]

OK, I looked it up in my load book. My load was a 530 grain LBT sized .459 and lubed with White Lightening or SPG. Alloy was 1-20 tin/lead. I used a Rem large rifle primer, a .030 over powder wad (vegetable fiber) and seated the bullet with thumb pressure and then crimped lightly. The charge wa 28 grains of 5744. The load tables said I could use up to 32 grains but....my common sense said 28 was enough. That gave me 1157 fps out of my 32" barrel. Cases were neck sized only and slightly belled. That being said, I went back to BP albeit a duplex load. I liked it better and it was easier on both my pocket and my shoulder.

['74 sharps]

I switched my 45-70 from smokeless to black and would never consider loading smokeless again. Black is an easier powder to make adjustments on as far as amount by varying the compression of the powder. To me, its just more interesting all around.

[RMulhern]

I'm real proud folks don't like blackpowder! It might get short!!

[TXGunNut]

Had the pleasure of using some black today. For the life of me I can't figure out why someone would want to use smokeless powder to load a blackpowder cartridge for a blackpowder rifle. What's wrong with black? Been around for centuries, ought to at least be worth a try.
Takes all kinds, I guess.

[oldred]

I too like to shoot BP (real BP not the phony stuff) but let's be realistic, there's a lot to not like about the stuff for some people. Some folks just don't want to put up with the mess, fouling and corrosive nature of BP for the same reasons the "old timers" would have switched to a smokeless in a heartbeat if they had of had one available, come to think of it they did switch when it became available! The 45/90 was factory loaded with smokeless for as many years as it was with BP before it was finally discontinued and it shoots just fine with the right smokeless powder. The fact is the 45/90 and the 458 magnum are nearly identical except for the belted and rimless design so the 45/90 is little different than a light 458 magnum load which shoots just fine with smokeless! Not trying to knock BP or discourage someone from trying it, I think they should, but it's simply a different kind of sport and it's just not to everyone's liking.



Personally I love to shoot BP, occasionally, I love the smoke, smell, sparks and nostalgia of REAL BP but it's also understandable why a lot of folks don't really care for the fouled bores, corrosive nature of BP, dirty residue on both the gun and the cases plus having to swab between shots and carry around a jug of cleaner for the cases (not always necessary but a good idea and a lot of folks do it).

Like I said I am not trying to knock BP but just being realistic because all to often the question is asked if BP must be used in some of these older calibers and except for the really huge cases like 45/110/120 or the big 50's there are good smokeless alternatives for those who would rather shoot smokeless, the fact is a lot of people do.

[hydraulic]

Black powder is not corrosive.

[PanaDP]

Black powder is not corrosive.

And I can clean up my sharps faster than I can clean my bolt rifle.

[RMulhern]

I too like to shoot BP (real BP not the phony stuff) but let's be realistic, there's a lot to not like about the stuff for some people. Some folks just don't want to put up with the mess, fouling and corrosive nature of BP for the same reasons the "old timers" would have switched to a smokeless in a heartbeat if they had of had one available, come to think of it they did switch when it became available! The 45/90 was factory loaded with smokeless for as many years as it was with BP before it was finally discontinued and it shoots just fine with the right smokeless powder. The fact is the 45/90 and the 458 magnum are nearly identical except for the belted and rimless design so the 45/90 is little different than a light 458 magnum load which shoots just fine with smokeless! Not trying to knock BP or discourage someone from trying it, I think they should, but it's simply a different kind of sport and it's just not to everyone's liking.



Personally I love to shoot BP, occasionally, I love the smoke, smell, sparks and nostalgia of REAL BP but it's also understandable why a lot of folks don't really care for the fouled bores, corrosive nature of BP, dirty residue on both the gun and the cases plus having to swab between shots and carry around a jug of cleaner for the cases (not always necessary but a good idea and a lot of folks do it).

Like I said I am not trying to knock BP but just being realistic because all to often the question is asked if BP must be used in some of these older calibers and except for the really huge cases like 45/110/120 or the big 50's there are good smokeless alternatives for those who would rather shoot smokeless, the fact is a lot of people do.

oldred

"there's a lot to not like about the stuff for some people."

That's good.....then 'some people' oughta take their arses over to the Single Shot Rifle or Smokeless Paper Patching forum where they shoot that krap rather than coming here where WE shoot BLACKPOWDER, crying and bitchin about THEIR various woes and moans!! It's quite apparent that THEY come here for a reason; probably because of the vast knowledge that some people have concerning the usage of BLACKPOWDER in hopes that THEY can pick up some tips about how to load THEIR smokeless krap when in truth the two concepts are totally different!

['74 sharps]

Why anyone would want to use smokeless in a period rifle amazes me. If they want smokeless, there are plenty of autoloaders and bolt actions available. I went to the dark side after many rounds of smokeless in my '74's, and shall never return. A few patches wet with water, and a patch with oil, I use Ballistol, and I'm done. Loading is more interesting and challenging to find what works best, but worth the trip when you arrive.

[oldred]

Black powder is not corrosive.




Ok, but it's obvious BP very quickly leads to corrosion so what's your point?


Fellows look at the OP's question, he specifically asked about using smokeless in his rifle did he not?


This attitude about "shoot BP or just don't shoot" is plain nonsense, a lot of us like these older cartridges and gun styles but don't care for the hassles of BP every time we shoot, be reasonable here. You can sugar coat it all you want and explain how easy the clean-up is, etc but that still don't change the facts about the extra care (a LOT of extra care) necessary when shooting BP! Bore fouling, dirty guns and cases along with immediate and VERY necessary extra cleaning care for both rifle and cases is something not everyone wants to always be bothered with, it may just be part of the fun for some but not for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that. If everyone was shooting original 1800s era rifles then it might make sense but to tell someone with a brand new Italian built rifle he MUST shoot BP or he is not being "correct" is just plain nonsense, if you like shooting BP fine let's encourage more people to try it but don't INSIST that everyone must do as you do because you like it. Besides the 45/90 was FACTORY loaded with smokeless almost from the day smokeless was introduced to the market so is it really all that "incorrect"?



The section is titled BP cartridge, not BP only!

[Don McDowell]

It says at the top of the page.....
Black Powder Cartridge BPCR,your place for combining the Holy Black and Brass.

The 45-90 as some call it now , was first brought out by Sharps Rifle Co. as the 45 2.4 and was their standard chambering in the Creedmoor guns. Smokeless powder really hadn't got the start at that time.
The 45-90 of winchester fame is the sharps case loaded with lightweight bullets in order to cycle thru the 1886 action, sort of an express loading if you will.
If the op of this thread wants folks to tell him to go against the printed warning on the barrel of the rifle to use blackpowder only , put there by the manufacturer, then you go right on ahead and do it. Just be sure your homeowners liability insurance will cover any info you might hand out that does not work out for the recipient...
PS Blackpowder is not corrosive.

[oldred]

It says at the top of the page.....
Black Powder Cartridge BPCR,your place for combining the Holy Black and Brass..


Ok so it does, my mistake.

No need to explain the 45/90 to me however I'm no newbie, been shooting a 45/90 since 1968, my first rifle larger than a 22 was a Winchester in 45/90 and my uncle was loading smokeless for it even back then.



What I don't understand is some people's "Either you play the game my way or just take your ball and go home" attitude. Telling someone who does not want to shoot BP, and there are a lot of them, in their modern rifle they should shoot BP or just not shoot that rifle at all is nonsense and does our sport no good at all! I love shooting BP but I still mostly shoot smokeless because of the convenience and I certainly understand why some don't want to mess with BP at all. Let's encourage everyone to at least give it a try and tell them what they might be missing if they don't but good grief don't take it as an insult if someone don't like BP but still wants to shoot their rifle!

I proof tested my custom High Wall in 45/90 to Ruger no.1 pressures and the thing is built from heat treated 4140 steel so should I limit myself to BP? The same is true for any other modern rifle and in the case of the one the OP is asking about the proof limit is 28000 PSI which is well above BP pressures and would be perfectly safe with published smokeless loads. The most popular BP cartridge of all time, the 45/70 is a very good performer with both smokeless and BP even in the old Trapdoors and the 45/90 is little different with smokeless loaded to safe pressures in any rifle that is sound and safe to shoot. The OP asked about shooting smokeless in this cartridge so obviously he wants to so should we tell him no don't do that it because it's not "correct" (even in a modern Italian built rifle) or should we simply suggest giving BP a try and see what he might be missing but also answer his question in a friendly manner about how to shoot smokeless safely, which a great many people do every single day! Besides since the 45/90 has been loaded with smokeless since around the turn of the century is it really "incorrect" anyway?

[Don McDowell]

The Pedersoli 1874 Quigley in 45-90 is marked The Pedersoli 1874 Quigley in 45-90 is marked "Black Powder Cartridge Only" on the bottom flat of the barrel forward of the nose cap"Black Powder Cartridge Only" on the bottom flat of the barrel forward of the nose cap

Oldred you may want to take your blackpowder complaints to Pedersoli.......

[omgb]

If you write to Pedersoli they will tell you that smokeless is ok and does not violate the terms of the warranty provided the pressures involved don't exceed those of BP. Specifically, they endorse the use of smokeless loads as provided by PMC and Black Hills (if BH still markets 45-90). That's what they and Dick Trenk told me back in 2000. Like most manufacturers however, they insist that handloading may in many cases, invalidate the warranty. So, where does that leave you? You tell me.

The OP asked a pretty straight foreward question and got a simple answer plus a lot of negativity for using the wrong forum for his question. Kinda sad when we have so much intollerance for one another considering that most of the world would like to divide us and then disarm us. It's kind of frustrationg.:killingpc We can and should be, kinder and more patient with oneanother.

[PanaDP]

Besides the 45/90 was FACTORY loaded with smokeless almost from the day smokeless was introduced to the market so is it really all that "incorrect"?


Please cite where you got that information. I've never heard of 45-2.4" ever being loaded with smokeless from the factory. The notion is actually rather ridiculous in a case with that much capacity.

[oldred]

They put that on there because of the lack of SAAMI specs for the 45/90 and at a proof of 28000 PSI there is no need to worry about smokeless loads within that pressure range, there's been many pounds of smokeless shot through those rifles with no problems. There are several rifle models labeled "BP only" for this same reason that are shot with smokeless and there does not seem to be a rash of rifle explosions being talked about, the new model Winchester/Browning Highwalls in 45/90 are also BP rifles but those things are extremely strong and will handle waaaaay above BP pressures so should they be loaded with BP only?


Look, I am not trying to start an argument but face the fact a LOT of people don't care for BP for obvious reasons so why get insulted if they had rather shoot smokeless? If some of us want to shoot BP that's fine there's a heck of a lot of good reasons to (the best being it's just plain fun!) but there are also a good many reasons not to for some folks even if those reasons are not a problem for others. These rifles can most certainly be loaded safely with smokeless and the fact is it's done all the time so please let's keep it friendly and reasonable and if someone is wanting to shoot smokeless don't take a "shoot BP or nothing" attitude. We should ENCOURAGE, but not insist, shooting BP on the basis that it's fun and an entirely different sport but if someone still don't want to put up with BP's unique requirements that does not mean they should not be shooting their rifle, that's being unreasonable.

[Don McDowell]

The OP asked a pretty straight foreward question and got a simple answer plus a lot of negativity for using the wrong forum for his question. Kinda sad when we have so much intollerance for one another considering that most of the world would like to divide us and then disarm us. It's kind of frustrationg.:killingpc We can and should be, kinder and more patient with oneanother.

Then why not just get rid of ALL of the seperate forums here, then it'll just be one great big happy place :roll:
Still the OP's rifle says on the barrelThe Pedersoli 1874 Quigley in 45-90 is marked "Black Powder Cartridge Only" on the bottom flat of the barrel forward of the nose cap
So the question then becomes who here, even if it were in the right forum, wants to take the responsibility for saying the manufacturer is wrong.
Besides blackpowder is so easy to get, do a search on "where to buy blackpowder" , and easy to use once you do get it, and the stuff just works so much better in these big cases than smokeless.
And a followup on Pana's post,,, they make the .458 winchester, wonderful cartridge for large amounts of smokeless powder and heavy bullets... you can even take it a bit further and go with the 458 Lott....

[oldred]

Please cite where you got that information. I've never heard of 45-2.4" ever being loaded with smokeless from the factory. The notion is actually rather ridiculous in a case with that much capacity.



I guess you're right and since the case capacity is almost exactly the same as the 458 magnum we should tell everyone the 458 needs to be loaded with BP also!


The 458 shoots just fine with reduced loads of smokeless, often within 45/90 load specs. Yes there were factory loaded smokeless 45/90 rounds up until just before WW II, I shot some of it back in the 60's but I sure wish I had of saved the stuff instead of wasting it like that!

[PanaDP]

I guess you're right and since the case capacity is almost exactly the same as the 458 magnum we should tell everyone the 458 needs to be loaded with BP also!


The 458 shoots just fine with reduced loads of smokeless, often within 45/90 load specs. Yes there were factory loaded smokeless 45/90 rounds up until just before WW II, I shot some of it back in the 60's but I sure wish I had of saved the stuff instead of wasting it like that!

OK, since you're sidestepping my request, I'll ask another question. Since it's an undeniable fact that there were factory smokeless loads in 45-2.4", what rifles were chambered in it that were smokeless approved and what were the SAAMI (or equivalent, since SAAMI probably isn't that old) specs for it?

If the .458 magnum is exactly the same thing as 45-2.4", then why does the .458 magnum exist? Why didn't winchester just load up some hot 45-2.4" with smokeless and let 'er rip?

[oldred]

Then why not just get rid of ALL of the seperate forums here, then it'll just be one great big happy place :roll:
Still the OP's rifle says on the barrelThe Pedersoli 1874 Quigley in 45-90 is marked "Black Powder Cartridge Only" on the bottom flat of the barrel forward of the nose cap
So the question then becomes who here, even if it were in the right forum, wants to take the responsibility for saying the manufacturer is wrong.
Besides blackpowder is so easy to get, do a search on "where to buy blackpowder" , and easy to use once you do get it, and the stuff just works so much better in these big cases than smokeless.
And a followup on Pana's post,,, they make the .458 winchester, wonderful cartridge for large amounts of smokeless powder and heavy bullets... you can even take it a bit further and go with the 458 Lott....




The answer is simple, some guys have these rifles in these calibers and love the gun and the caliber, I know I sure do like my Highwalls. But they simply don't want to shoot BP in them for the reasons that have already been discussed, and these reasons are legit whether they are are a nuisance to everyone or not, so my question to you is why should it bother you so much that someone would rather use smokeless in THEIR rifle? Trying to say we are being irresponsible for telling someone it's ok to shoot something that is done all the time with no problems just don't cut it, it should be obvious that no one is suggesting exceeding the pressure limits and it's easy to load smokeless within these limits and stay safe- people have been doing it for YEARS and will continue to do it!

[oldred]

OK, since you're sidestepping my request, I'll ask another question. Since it's an undeniable fact that there were factory smokeless loads in 45-2.4", what rifles were chambered in it that were smokeless approved and what were the SAAMI (or equivalent, since SAAMI probably isn't that old) specs for it?

If the .458 magnum is exactly the same thing as 45-2.4", then why does the .458 magnum exist? Why didn't winchester just load up some hot 45-2.4" with smokeless and let 'er rip?



I'm not side stepping anything, there were factory smokeless loads for the 45/90 up until sometime before WW II just as there were/are BP equivalent smokeless loads for the 45/70 and these (45/70) are stated by the manufacturer to be safe in older rifles as long as they are still sound. The 45/90 has been shooting smokeless for years and will continue to do so and several listings for smokeless loads are available in manuals even without the SAAMI rating. You guys can rant and carry on all you like but there is no real reason to not shoot safe pressure smokeless loads in the 45/90 unless someone just likes shooting BP, and if they had rather shoot smokeless there's no reason not to.


As far as why is the 458 in existence I think that should be obvious!

First off I never said the 45/90 and 458 were exactly the same, go back and read what I said, I said they had nearly the same case capacity. The 458 is a much stronger belted case designed for much higher pressures but more importantly it WILL NOT FIT in the chamber of an old 45/90 rifle! What I said is that the 458 mag is often loaded down to 45/90 specs as a reduced load and it shoots these loads just fine, I NEVER in any way suggested the 45/90 could be loaded to full 458 mag specs.

[PanaDP]

I'm not side stepping anything, there were factory smokeless loads for the 45/90 up until sometime before WW II just as there were/are BP equivalent smokeless loads for the 45/70 and these (45/70) are stated by the manufacturer to be safe in older rifles as long as they are still sound. The 45/90 has been shooting smokeless for years and will continue to do so and several listings for smokeless loads are available in manuals even without the SAAMI rating. You guys can rant and carry on all you like but there is no real reason to not shoot safe pressure smokeless loads in the 45/90 unless someone just likes shooting BP, and if they had rather shoot smokeless there's no reason not to.

I would agree that it's safe if your smokeless load always mimics the pressures of BP and ramps up to that pressure in a similar way to BP. I don't have the equipment to test this, do you? Logic tells me that the .458WM exists because it can do something that the 45-2.4" can't and in my mind that's shoot smokeless powder safely without the razor's edge of concern that you would need tossing white powder into that big old fashioned case.

[montana_charlie]

The OP asked a pretty straight foreward question and got a simple answer plus a lot of negativity for using the wrong forum ...
At the point where I informed him of the section where his question is 'on topic', there had been no 'negtivity' ... and I didn't add any.

Beyond that, if you insist on discussing a subject which is known to contradict the preferences of those you are talking to, you must expect disagreement.

In 'your house' I will talk about single shot guns without bias. I will provide information applicable to any shooting regimen, if I can.
If the o/p asks a BP-specific question that looks like it might grow legs, I will invite him 'here' to explore that.

Why do you smokeless guys never do the same ... here, or on the paper patching forum?

CM

[Mooseman]

As a Gunsmith, shooter, and reloader, I feel it is a bit irresponsible to tell someone that it is OK to ignore the " BP only "warning IF you do not know what experience they have as far as loading and understanding different powders and how temperatures, boolits, crimps, etc. can cause a change in pressure that may exceed the Safety Margins. BP Cartridge guns may be PROOF TESTED to 28,000 PSI but that doesnt mean they should be fired at that pressure multiple times when they should really stay in the 22-25,000 PSI Range for safety. Steel weakens when it is constantly "Limited out" and Micro cracks can lead to a catastrophe...
On a side note Here is a true story.
Some years ago,A Local gentleman traded for a Pedersoli 45-70 rifle and didnt see the " Black powder cartridge only" warning stamped on it due to his age and bad eyesight. He was told that he could shoot any 45-70 round thru it by the salesman. He had a Box of 45-70 ammo loaded for the Marlin rifles with 405 gr. Sp Bullets. He brought the gun home , loaded one round and fired it. The gun blew up in his face, the stock splintered and if he had not been wearing his glasses he would have lost 1 or both of his eyes from wood and metal shrapnel. He called me after the accident for help so I got to see the damage first hand to both him and the gun. It wasn't pretty. The gun was destroyed and he was a bloody mess with injuries to his hands and face.

Since we are dealing with a controlled explosion anytime we fire a gun , we need to Maintain the highest safety standards we can to insure against injury to the shooter and possibly innocent bystanders in this sport. Anything else is Not acceptable in my Opinion.
Rich

[PanaDP]

Since we are dealing with a controlled explosion anytime we fire a gun , we need to Maintain the highest safety standards we can to insure against injury to the shooter and possibly innocent bystanders in this sport. Anything else is Not acceptable in my Opinion.
Rich

Given that, how do you feel about handloading smokeless powder in 45-2.4" by the average handloader?

[oldred]

Again I think the point is being missed here, for many, many years the 45/70 has been loaded with smokeless from the factory for use in old BP firearms and the 45/90 is little different as long as the safe pressures are maintained, but then that's true of any rifle. It all boils down to the fact that some people are going to be offended by someone else shooting smokeless in their favorite rifle/caliber and for the life of me I can't understand this! Untold thousands of smokeless 45/90 rounds have been fired and thousands more will be so what's the problem? If it wasn't safe then Lyman, AA an a couple of others are being irresponsible for listing smokeless loads for this round right? Fellows if you like to shoot BP that's certainly understandable but if someone else wants to shoot smokeless then we should either discuss it in a reasonable manner or just leave them alone, telling someone it's dangerous when it's safely done all the time or "not period correct" just don't make sense. Encouraging people to try BP and see for themselves is fine but insisting they adhere to some kind of BP shooting code is not.

I agree this should have been a subject for the single shot section or the CB loads section but still the OP did ask about using smokeless and so a bit of prodding to use BP instead would certainly have been ok but so was reasonable advice on using the smokeless.


Definitely NOT for the Pedersoli but check out the 45,000 PSI 45/90 Express here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-90_Sharps

[RMulhern]

As I stated earlier....take your WOES & MOANS over to the smokeless forum!

Simple!!

What you don't seem to understand is that WE don't care about answering questions or reading about SP; it's NOT RELATED to the name of this forum which is BLACKPOWDER! Frankly I don't give a hoot if you want to shoot TNT in your rifle or whomever's rifle!

One more time; smokeless powder IS NOT RELATED to this forum!!!

[skimmerhead]

i'm so confused i'm gonna buy me a bow and arrow and load it with black powder and see what it does. :confused:

skimmerhead :castmine:

[Longwood]

I was talking to a guy last summer that shoots nothing but smokeless powder in his Pedersoli that clearly has Black Powder only stamped on the underside of the barrel.
His groups were very small and It made plenty of noise but not all of the stinky smoke.

[RMulhern]

I was talking to a guy last summer that shoots nothing but smokeless powder in his Pedersoli that clearly has Black Powder only stamped on the underside of the barrel.
His groups were very small and It made plenty of noise but not all of the stinky smoke.

Great! Send him to the smokeless powder forum!

[Mooseman]

Given that, how do you feel about handloading smokeless powder in 45-2.4" by the average handloader?

Good question...If it is done safely with proven pressure loads/ fillers, and properly done boolits then I dont have a problem with anyone doing it the right way. I have been handloading for over 35 years and I still am very cautious with any load combination.
It only takes ONE double charge or overload to ruin your day and your gun.
I have gun frames here that are in pieces from reloaded ammo that was improperly done by someone who wasnt paying attention to detail...So there are different skill levels that can factor into the equation.
There are plenty of Real experts that can be consulted at bullet, powder, and gun maker companies as a resource that I would trust way more than someones load written on a forum...

Rich

[Mooseman]

As I stated earlier....take your WOES & MOANS over to the smokeless forum!

Simple!!

What you don't seem to understand is that WE don't care about answering questions or reading about SP; it's NOT RELATED to the name of this forum which is BLACKPOWDER! Frankly I don't give a hoot if you want to shoot TNT in your rifle or whomever's rifle!

One more time; smokeless powder IS NOT RELATED to this forum!!!

RMulhern,
There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for you to be acting this way towards the question being answered and the people discussing it . The whole Forum is about Cast Boolits , yet we talk all kinds of things in different sections.If you cant help people , then you dont have to post anything especially with" rock throwing". His question covers many facets that can fit several sections of this forum.
Please stop the Flaming !!

[oldred]

His groups were very small and It made plenty of noise but not all of the stinky smoke.



STINKY smoke???? :confused: Now thats just going too cotton pickin far!! BP emits an INTOXICATING AROMA not a "Stinky" smoke! :)

[waksupi]

It's not the pressure. It's the impulse.

[PanaDP]

STINKY smoke???? :confused: Now thats just going too cotton pickin far!! BP emits an INTOXICATING AROMA not a "Stinky" smoke! :)

It's true. Whenever I shoot BP at the local range I always hear a chorus of "man that black powder smells good." The only people who complain are the weenie stock brokers who drive up twice a year in their BMW 3-series to shoot the glock the internet told them to buy. Yeah, I live in California.:groner:

[waksupi]

If you guys don't get over the holier than thou **** about which forum the paper patch questions are asked, they can be easily merged into one forum. There is a lot of over lap in technique.

['74 sharps]

It's true. Whenever I shoot BP at the local range I always hear a chorus of "man that black powder smells good." The only people who complain are the weenie stock brokers who drive up twice a year in their BMW 3-series to shoot the glock the internet told them to buy. Yeah, I live in California.:groner:


They are called "brokers" for a reason.....that's generally how the customer winds up..:coffeecom

[montana_charlie]

If you guys don't get over the holier than thou **** about which forum the paper patch questions are asked, they can be easily merged into one forum. There is a lot of over lap in technique.
Why were they split to begin with?

CM

[Longwood]

Great! Send him to the smokeless powder forum!

It must be in the Oxymoron Forum.:kidding:

Every single powder I have ever tried, smokes and makes my guns dirty.
Some dirtier than others.

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the BPCR forum, 45-90 is a BP cartridge, the Sharps is a BPCR. I haven't found a way to get the results I want from my 45-90 with SP [smilie=b: but I haven't tried too hard. My friend Randy taught me better. :mrgreen: My 45-90 requires 4-5 patches, a squirt of Windex and a dab of Wonder Lube to make it as good as new after firing. Wish I could say that about my SP J-word rifles. Big boom and sweet blue cloud is a real crowd-pleaser as well.

[omgb]

Montana Charlie, I honestly wasn't trying to finger anyone in particular and I'm not trying to set anyone straight. It's just that from time to time, responses to questions get a tad "kurt" and less than warm. You know what I'm saying, there's a way to say to a guy that the information he needs would better be found on another thread and then there's tell'n him to beat it. Some of the responses were closer to the latter than the former. I don't know, I guess I'd just like us to be more patient with one another and a tad kinder. That's all.

BTW, I have the David Pedersoli video that came with my gun and the instruction sheet. Both say that with the cartridge rifles, one can use either Black or "factory" smokeless loads. My barrel does indeed say "Black Powder" so I don't know what to make of the obvious dichotomy.

As to the 28,000 PSI limit. That wasn't the proof max, that was the service max. The guns are proofed at almost double that. That's what Pedersoli told me back in 2000 and that's what Dick Trenk told me too. I try to stay below that 28K limit for lots of reasons including my own comfort.

Anyway, if you took what I said as me wagging my finger at you, I apologize, that was not my intent. You and I have had pretty good conversations over the years and I'd like to keep it that way. I get into Belt and Ulm too often to make an enemy in that area.:lol:

[montana_charlie]

Montana Charlie
Anyway, if you took what I said as me wagging my finger at you, :
No. sir ... I did not ... and no apology is needed.
When I used 'you' in my reply, it was addressed to 'you smokeless guys' ... not you, personally.

My point was to illustrate that there is a difference in 'considerate behavior' between the two factions ... even though we DO have one member who tends to 'blurt' when the limits of his patience are exceeded.

CM

[oldred]

This is supposed to be all in fun here and I just can't understand why some people get riled over nothing, sure sometimes someone will talk about that "other" powder for one reason or another but so what? Keep it friendly and help with their questions if you like ("you" simply being a generic term and not aimed at anyone here) but good gosh don't scold someone! This "do it my way or go somewhere else" attitude is just plain childish and there's no reason for someone to get bent all out of shape over it. I enjoy shooting both BP and smokeless and I like reading this forum but hardly ever post in this section, this time a favorite subject of mine (the 45/90) came up and I offered my 2 cents but I was under the impression that all of us are allowed to post here? The first reply simply pointed out in a friendly way that a better answer might come from another section and that was a perfectly acceptable way of handling this IMO, why can't we all be as friendly as that?

[omgb]

Agreed. Now for kicks and giggles mention SP on the Sharps blogs...he, he. That will brush some hair the wrong way pronto.

Anyway, I prefer BP in my guns but I'm an avid duplexer. At times I feel like Rodny Dangerfield at the Bushwood Country Club...then I think, ok, but in that case, I'm just playing through anyway so big deal.

R Talley

[montana_charlie]

I just can't understand why some people get riled over nothing,?
I think I understand why you have that view.

The first reply simply pointed out in a friendly way that a better answer might come from another section and that was a perfectly acceptable way of handling this IMO, why can't we all be as friendly as that?
Actually, I think the o/p got tic'd off by that suggestion and departed.

The way to know (for sure) was to have waited for him to arrive in the 'No Smoking Zone' and then have your way with him.

Instead, you (as in "you guys") said to heck with moving elsewhere, let's just hash it out here ... while your first post with "there is no real reason to shoot BP unless you just want to" couldn't have been better designed to 'rile up' people who specialize in shooting that powder.

Would you also pop up in a military rifle discussion group with 'there's no reason for anybody to want an AR-15" ?
Do you think that might 'rile' somebody?

Would your wife get 'riled' if a visitor in her living room opined that she sure didn't need a vacuum cleaner for such a lousy piece of carpet?


I was under the impression that all of us are allowed to post here
That impression is correct. Anybody can post in any section of the website.
But the site is divided into sections by subject matter, and it is expected that posters will stay on the topic of the section they are posting in.

If you want to see a thread banished in a blink, try putting a picture of your latest target in 'Our Town', or hinting at something religious in ANY section other than 'The Pit'.

I can't say this in a more friendly way, oldred. I hope you now understand why 'some people can get riled over nothing'.

CM

[oldred]

If the OP had of asked about using Black and some of us had of jumped in with recommendations of using smokeless instead you would have a valid point, however that's not what happened. He specifically asked if it was safe to use smokeless for his BPCR instead of the traditional powder and a couple of us pointed out that he should be just fine doing that IF that's what he wants to do since it's done all the time in that model of rifle, had it not been for the negative remarks the thread would have ended right there after only a couple of postings. There is simply no excuse for being rude, the guy obviously did not think he was out of line and did not deserve all the negativity. He came to the BPCR section I assume because of the type and caliber of his rifle but instead of everyone offing friendly advice, including suggesting BP instead, there were some very rude remarks and some very childish attitudes. Nothing wrong with suggesting BP is by far the better choice and to give reasons why but to scold someone for asking about, or even wanting to, shoot smokeless is just plain ridiculous! This all supposed to be fun and just a hobby/sport with different people doing different things and we are all guests here but one poster in particular presumed to speak for everyone when he said "We" don't want to answer questions about anything but BP, fine don't answer but obviously not everyone feels that way. That kind of elitist attitude only alienates people and does the sport no good at all and there is absolutely no excuse for that kind of nonsense. As far as the suggestion that the only reason to shoot BP is if you want to, I guess I worded that wrong and I did not mean it like it apparently sounds. What I meant was that IF he wants to shoot smokeless then there is no over-riding reason not to, I did not mean it was as good or even a better choice than BP, and it's safely done all the time. I answered that way because that's what he asked and to me it seemed a heck of a lot better than telling him to either shoot BP or get lost!



You guys with the negative attitudes need to realize that you can not win anyone over to our sport by taking a horse's **** attitude, you will only drive people away like that! There's a lot of fun things to talk about when trying to convince someone they need to try BP and a little FRIENDLY encouragement goes a long way but negativity only turns people off and reflects in a very bad way on the person being so negative, being friendly and steering a person the right direction will introduce a lot more people to our sport than insulting them or telling them to "do it my way or get lost"!

Think about it

[Don McDowell]

I don't see where anybody told the OP to shoot black or get lost. Most said it would be better to take his question to a different forum , than the black powder cartridge forum.
And you did go right into smokeless loads that you use, and proceeded to lecture on the "corrosive" attributes of blackpowder.

As to the "elitist" attitudes and "our" sport. Read the NRA BPCR and BPTR rules, smokeless powders are strictly forbidden. That's not elitist, that's just the rules.
There are gong matches that allow both types of powder, but the overwhelming majority of shooters go with blackpowder, due to the very nature of the game.

[oldred]

Don I never said anyone told him that I was just saying that's the attitude some take. As far as what I said about the physical aspects of shooting BP I was not "lecturing" anyone I only mentioned that as the reasons some shy away from shooting BP and that's very obviously true, that's my whole point deal with this in a friendly manner and encourage people to give it a try but don't tell them to just go to another forum! Why take such an attitude? Again we are going to introduce a lot more shooters to the sport by friendly discussion than by a sour attitude, don't you think?

[Mooseman]

We are off on a major Bunny trail again....So Let me state this for the record,
MODS will decide if a thread is in the wrong Forum and we will Move it accordingly.
IT Is part Of OUR Job here.
When a New person comes here and asks for info trying to learn , Our Main goal is to provide accurate and SAFE information...treat them Like they deserve to be treated or JUST SHUT UP and Move along. Nit picking never did anyone any good as far as learning is concerned.
The question was BP only in a BP cartridge for a Gun Marked " BP only"?

Rich

[Ramar]

CM,
I like 'blurt". I think I just 'blurted'?
Ramar

[montana_charlie]

CM,
I like 'blurt". I think I just 'blurted'?
If you did, it must have been 'on topic' because nobody got riled.
Unfortunate that others are not so considerate ...

CM

[MC One Shot]

The intent of the question in my OP was the phrase "Black Powder cartridge Only". This phrase does it mean that cartridges loaded only with BP can only be used in this rifle or does it mean cartridges that used to be originally designated/loaded with BP and may be used with either BP or smokeless?.

I have been shooting both BP and smokeless in a variety of firearms for 48 years, this is the first time I have seen this phase. I have seen "Black Powder Only" on firearms but never with the word cartridge in it, hence my question for some clarification.

I have contacted Pedersoli but have not had a response yet.

Thank you for your comments/advice.

[oldred]

The reason it's on there is because there's no SAAMI specs for the 45/90 and it's on most (maybe all?) new rifles chambered in these older BP cartridges for which there are no specs. As far as loading smokeless in the 45/90 I personally have done it for years and lots of others do too, in the last few months I have been working with H4895 and Varget but I used AA5744 before that. You can find safe smokeless data from several sources using various powders that will keep you in the BP pressure range for which that rifle is perfectly safe, Lyman manuals are a good place to look. It's little different than the BP equivalent smokeless loads that have been factory loaded for many years for the 45/70 and these are safe, acknowledged by the factory (Winchester, Remington, etc) for use in older rifles such as the Trapdoors that were originally designed for BP as long as these guns are still in sound condition.



AA5744, H4895 and Varget are some powders that can be safely loaded to BP pressures but the 5744 is probably the most popular, 5744 is designed specifically for use in big cases at low pressures and works really well in the 45/90. At a design safe pressure of 28000 PSI stated by the factory for that rifle these published 45/90 loads from Lyman, AA, etc are well below what should be safe and are probably very close to the factory smokeless 45/90 loadings that were sold until just prior to WW II.

[MC One Shot]

OldRed....Thank you

[catkiller45]

really what is the difference what powder your using as long as your shooting and having fun with it..Some people take things too serious and that ruins it for others...I say use whatever and have fun....

[oldred]

really what is the difference what powder your using as long as your shooting and having fun with it..Some people take things too serious and that ruins it for others...I say use whatever and have fun....




Exactly!!!

[longbow]

+1 for what omgb said!

The OP asked a simple question for which he deserves a simple answer. He probably posted here because he figured that people here might know the answer to his question "Is there variants to this rifle for BP only and for smokeless?"

I seriously doubt he is trying to upset anyone or trying to convert this forum to a smokeless powder forum.

Unfortunately I can't provide an answer from personal experience or knowledge but an internet search came up with this:

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

which contains this statement:

"This allowable maximum pressure may be obtained using either black powder or smokeless powder loadings." With reference to their Sharps and some other replicas.

There is also an abundance of smokeless powder reloading info available for .45-90 (at black powder equivalent pressure) and according to Cartridges of the World with reference to the .45-90 Winchester cartridge "The smokeless powder .45-90 came out in 1895 and was discontinued about 1936."

My understanding is that the .45-90 Winchester is dimensionally the same as the .45 100 (.45 2.4") Sharps so it appears that smokeless loadings for the .45-90 have been around for quite some time.

Just trying to answer the man's question.

Longbow

[longbow]

Yow! Were there ever a lot of posts while I was typing!

[Mooseman]

The 45-90 Winchester is a different cartridge than the Sharps , they are however close enough to interchange.
The Sharps were NEVER loaded with smokeless powder.
The Winchester cartridge started as BP and then later was loaded with smokeless.

Just the facts.

[oldred]

"The smokeless powder .45-90 came out in 1895 and was discontinued about 1936". Longbow




Thank you, I searched unsuccessfully for that info earlier. I knew the 45/90 was factory loaded with smokeless from the late 1800's to sometime just before WW II but I could not locate any info except vague references to both BP and smokeless loads from the factories. This is a fine round with either type of powder and IMO the best of the 45/xxxx rounds for BP loading except for all but the ultra ,long range shots. This is just me and I can not disagree with other's assessments of the even longer cases but to me the 45/90 is not fussy about loads and is easy to find a suitable load of BP that is powerful, accurate and comfortable to shoot. I did find however that the Sharps version with the heavier bullet seemed to work better than Winchester's lighter "express" round but then maybe it was more related to the condition of the two old Winchesters I had. Of course the Sharps 2.4 is technically not a 45/90 WCF although it seems most people erroneously (me included) refer to the Sharps round as a "45/90" but since the cases are dimensionally the same they are interchangeable.


Since the OP wanted to know about using smokeless in this old cartridge I would like to mention a common and mis-leading statement about the 45/90 vs the 45/70 that often comes up when someone asks about the 45/90. It's not at all unusual to hear someone advise that the 45/90 offers no advantage for loading smokeless over the 45/70 when choosing between these cases but that's not quite true! I think the reasoning is that since the 45/70 can easily be overloaded with some smokeless powders while still leaving room in the case that there is no advantage to even bigger cases but this is wrong for a couple of reasons. First the 45/90 can achieve about 200 FPS more velocity at the same pressures due to the bigger case and also slower powders like Varget and a few others will run out of room in the 45/70 case and still be close to the 28,000 PSI level, but then I have to agree with some here that the details of these loadings are a subject for a different section of this forum. I only wanted to point out that the 45/90 does indeed offer a performance increase over the 45/70 not only when loading with BP but also when loaded with smokeless to the same pressures as a comparable 45/70 round.

[RMulhern]

Exactly!!!

Tin cans, mad dogs, stop signs, junk Volkswagen, etc....just fine! Shoot nitro or C4 for that matter or whatever blows your skirt up but if you plan on entering any competition events....most will require the use of BLACKPOWDER ONLY!!

[Longwood]

Tin cans, mad dogs, stop signs, junk Volkswagen, etc....just fine! Shoot nitro or C4 for that matter or whatever blows your skirt up but if you plan on entering any competition events....most will require the use of BLACKPOWDER ONLY!!

Your constant attempts at trying to toss a turd into the pot are getting rather annoying.
I, for one, am very interested in this conversation but NOT at all in your rude comments.

[montana_charlie]

Your constant attempts at trying to toss a turd into the pot are getting rather annoying.
I, for one, am very interested in this conversation but NOT at all in your rude comments.
Too bad your entire crew didn't take the early hint, the one offered politely, and move the discussion to an appropriate location when it was easy.
Now I see another smokeless thread trying to take root ... started by a contributor to this one.
CM

[RMulhern]

Your constant attempts at trying to toss a turd into the pot are getting rather annoying.
I, for one, am very interested in this conversation but NOT at all in your rude comments.

Longwood

Well...I reckon you're just gonna have to grit ya teeth and bear it because I call things like I see them! My comment was not rude; rather a basic fact so if you don't like it....that's just tuff!![smilie=s::veryconfu

[omgb]

I give up.:groner: In case anyone gives a dang ..... I'm going shooting tomorrow and will be using BP in my 38-55/375 Win carbine.

[Longwood]

Longwood

if you don't like it....that's just tuff.

WRONG!

There is a ignore list.

You have the DISTINGUISHED POSITION of #1.

[TXGunNut]

WRONG!

There is a ignore list.

You have the DISTINGUISHED POSITION of #1.


As you wish, Longwood. I've learned quite a bit from Mr Mulhern over the past several months and I find his honesty refreshing even if a bit abrupt at times.

[EDG]

A little gasoline for the fire ?
Pedersoli proof web page

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

It looks like it is dated Sept 2004.

[RMulhern]

WRONG!

There is a ignore list.

You have the DISTINGUISHED POSITION of #1.

FANTASTIC!! Glad you approve!![smilie=w::violin:

[MC One Shot]

A little gasoline for the fire ?
Pedersoli proof web page

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

It looks like it is dated Sept 2004.

Thank you I read that as well.

[Mooseman]

It is apparent this has now run it's course...Thread Closed !