Remington 1911 R1 carry condition

[Judan_454]

Whats the safest way to carry a 1911 style gun Condition 1,2 or 3. I heard that the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked. Im use to carrying revolvers, but new too the 1911 even though its been around for a 100 years I guess im slow at adapting to new technology. LOL

[runfiverun]

cocked and locked.
the thing has what? 15-20 safetys.

[bob208]

cocked and locked. my holster also has a thumb break strap that goes under the hammer for an added safety. in fact you can not use the strap with out it being cocked and locked.

[44MAG#1]

Cocked and Locked.

[JohnnyFlake]

I, as well as most others posting here, know that it feels uneasy to carry "Cocked & Locked" when you first start doing it, but soon after it will be just an everyday event, you won't even think about it.

[lbaize3]

My dad taught me to carry "cocked and locked". He was a city policeman with 33 years of experience. He went to work as a bailiff in a district court for another 12 years before he finally retired. I was able to convince my boat officer to allow me to carry cocked and locked while in Vietnam. As a deputy sheriff I carried cocked and locked.

My thumb still searches for the safety as I draw an XD or Glock, today. Have to admit I prefer the 1911 over all other pistols.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I carry the 1911 on and off duty cocked and locked, I am a 30 year veteran peace officer. If you have an extended safety I'd be sure to use a high quality holster with it.

[TXGunNut]

My 1911's are social equipment and one old favorite is my retired duty gun with over 20 years of service. Bottom line it's a fighting gun and the condition that allows it to get into the fight quickest is cocked & locked. As mentioned above the holster is very important, especially with extended or ambi safeties. It must be very secure and should not allow the thumb safety to be pushed off. We had a chief once that didn't like cocked & locked. The 1911 and Hi-Power were very popular duty guns during his short tenure. ;)
Some folks are uneasy about cocked & locked but hardly anyone sees my 1911 anymore so I don't worry about it...come to think of it, didn't bother me much when I carried it in uniform. :smile:

[Judan_454]

Thanks for all the great information guys. It nice to get all that information from law enforcement people,if anyone understands carrying a 1911 it be the law enforcement people that carry the gun a daily basis.

[pietro]

FYI

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol.

They are:

[CONDITIONS OF READINESS

Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The mode of readiness preferred by experts is Condition One.
Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety.
Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don’t understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions.
When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off.
There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design.
In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand.
A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb.
In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Condition Three adds a degree of “insurance” against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target.
This draw is usually called “the Israeli draw” since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.

Using the “half-cock” as a safety:

The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a “fail-safe” and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it “half cocks” and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn’t use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with “Series 80″ type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.


.

[Matthew 25]

Condition 1 for me too. I felt a little weird about it at first, then I wore it cocked and locked and totally empty and tried to get the hammer to drop. No way.

[Buddy]

The 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

[35remington]

A couple of comments:

First, an impact on the hammer when the hammer is down won't fire a 1911, as the firing pin is shorter than the channel in the slide and the rear of the firing pin is flush with the surface of the firing pin stop. It is flush with the stop because the hammer holds it there when it is in the "at rest" position.

The usual way it can fire is if the firing pin is struck a full blow from the hammer starting from the cocked condition. Only then does the firing pin project far enough beyond the firing pin stop. The hammer will impart sufficient momentum to overcome the firing pin's spring resistance and allow the firing pin to gain enough speed to project beyond the breechface sufficient to fire the cartridge.

The other way it supposedly can fire, lacking a firing pin block and being of original 1911 or 1911A1 configuration is when it is dropped from sufficient height that the inertia gained from the fall will allow the firing pin to project with enough force to fire the round.....and of course the pistol has to land on its muzzle to do so.

How far it must drop to fire the cartridge is a matter of some debate. Some sources have claimed it is in excess of eight feet, which of course is much further than the average 1911 gets dropped. Instead of a firing pin block, some manufacturers avoid the issue by using a lightweight firing pin.

Ever seen an original hammer from the 1911 and 1911A1? It is relieved on the sides and has a big knob on the end of the hammer to facilitate gripping the hammer so it might be lowered safely on a round in the chamber. Properly done, the hammer was "pinched" between thumb and forefinger to facilitate lowering the hammer safely. The fingers fit into the relived part of the hammer on either side of the knob, giving a secure grip. Recent 1911 hammer design does not allow the sure grip on the hammer as in days of old.

Point being, Condition Two was seen as an alternative to "cocked and locked" because the design was set up to make such a thing possible with a reasonable assurance the hammer wouldn't slip when lowering it. Whether this is safer than "cocked and locked" is of course debatable, and the gun must be thumb cocked to ready it, which is of course undesirable in terms of speed.

But make no mistake......the 1911 and its early variants was set up to have the hammer lowered on the round in the chamber due to the hammer configuration.

The safest way to carry a 1911 is with the chamber empty. But that would make it too hard to employ quickly in most user's opinions.

[35remington]

Take a look at a 1911A1's hammer here:

http://coolgunsite.com/images/1911/1943Colt/1943Co14.jpg

[EMC45]

Condition 1.....Cocked and locked.

[dla]

The most dangerous thing you can do is start fiddling with trying to cock/decock a hammer. Carry C&L.

[Dan Cash]

35 Remington,
"But make no mistake......the 1911 and its early variants was set up to have the hammer lowered on the round in the chamber due to the hammer configuration. "

Tyou are most correct. However, the Army changed its mind early in the fielding of the 1911. I believe, as a result of troop user trials in 1912 or 13, cavalry soldiers (11th Cav?) were shooting their horses in the process of lowering the hammer. A cavalry horse being more valualbe than a trooper, it was declared cocked and locked for the carry method. I regret that I can not cite the source for this statement as it has been many years since I read it. It was in some kind of two volume short course for new officers placed on active duty which I found in the Armor School Library at Ft. Knox KY back in the late 70s.

[azrednek]

I'm pretty sure it was Cooper, if not please correct me. I'm paraphrasing from memory."If you're uncomfortable carrying cocked and locked, carry a revolver. One must be 100% confident, comfortable and secure." If anybody knows the exact quote please chime in.

[MtGun44]

Condition one. When home, Leave the gun loaded and in the holster, remove as a unit and put in
the safe. Removing and unloading 1000 times increases the chance of a brain fart
and a loud noise. Leave it in the holster ald it is 100% safe. Put holster and gun on belt
and leave. Everytime you provide access to the trigger or fiddle with safety and slide, you
dramatically increase chance for "1 in a million" human error.

Bill

[35remington]

Dan, what the Army declares its troopers can do has little to do with what the design features of the hammer facilitate. The hammer was shaped the way it was to allow lowering it with less chance of slipping from the grasp. People can still screw it up; the point was that those designing the pistol intended for it to be uncocked from time to time or they would not have shaped the hammer in the way they did.

Cars have pedals to make them go, too, and that gets abused all the time as well.

If you can run down the source that claimed the enlisted men were shooting their mounts right and left when trying to lower the hammer, I would be most fascinated to see it. If true, apparently it meant that they were also stupid enough to point their pistols directly at their horses while lowering the hammer. That seems a little much for guys that were not draftees.

I believe "cocked and locked" to be a civilian affectation. The Army didn't particularly care for it, I believe. I would also be most interested if anyone could come up with anything, in print, that said the Army officially designated the "cocked and locked" condition as the preferred carry method. I believe it would have been much more likely that the Army would have mandated loading from the magazine instead and carrying the pistol chamber empty.

Condition Three, in other words.

[pastor]

great discussion, not sure where i fall, i have carried mine both condition 1 and condition 3, i am no expert and i dont claim to have an answer, i do know that i feel more comfortable carrying with empty chamber hammer down with a full mag, but i acknowledge that it would be faster in a personal defense situation to have the gun C&L i hope there are more opinion's this is an important and interesting topic

[pastor]

good discission,

[TNFrank]

For carry it's going to be Cocked n' Locked but when it's in the drawer by my bedside it's Condition 2. Been doing it that way for years and years and years without a single mishap, don't care what anyone else has to say on the matter, been beat up enough over C2 on a lot of other web sites but it's worked for me for over 30 years and will continue to work for me for another 30 years if I have the gun for that long. :guntootsmiley:

[NickSS]

I know nothing of what the army did for safety but I do know what the Navy and Marines did at every base I was at when the 1911 was the current service pistol. The guards always carried the guns in a flap holster with a loaded mag and no round in the chamber. I watched the marines many times during guard change at their barracks and it was always the same drill. They would remove the pistol from the holster. Pull the slide to the rear and let it go forward. Then on command they would all point the pistol at a 45 degree angle and dry fire it. Then they took a loaded mag out and inserted it in the butt and holstered the weapon. Comming off guard the marines would eject the mag, pull the slide and dry fire the weapon. Holster and proceed into the barracks. I watched this routine from my office window hundreds of times for over four years and it never varied at all. The sailors who stood guard at the gangway to ships did the same thing.

[Rick Hodges]

1971 US Army MP school. Weapon was carried with 5 rounds in the magazine, empty chamber and hammer down. "Unless action was imminent". While doing white hat duty at Fort Gordon intel got word of anti-war activists planning to raid remote company armories. We were then instructed to carry the .45's cocked and locked, 8rds. in weapon and 7rds. in spare magazine. We were also issued a M-16 and three magazines w/18 rds. each.

In truth, after guard mount, most loaded magazines fully and went to condition 2. Our Officers and NCO's just looked the other way. Some higher ofc's and officials were still queasy about all those cocked .45's even when in a flapped holster. There is a right way, a wrong way and the Army way!

Rick

[pdawg_shooter]

Condition 1, the way John Moses Browning designed it to be carried.

[MtGun44]

"I believe locked and cocked to be a civilian affectation" -

I suggest you read the original 1911 testing report. The Army REQUIRED that the guns be
tested for safety in a condition that they can be picked up and fired WITHOUT THE
MANIPULATION OF ANY PART BUT THE TRIGGER. They were loaded, hammer back and
THUMB SAFETY OFF! The design passed all drop and other safety tests in this condition.
With the grip safety doing the primary safety job, and it worked perfectly.

Condition 1 is safer than the military required testing.

Later military leaders, primarily interested in peacetime situations, usually had the gun
completely unloaded. Various other oddball conditions were imposed by ill informed
small unit military commander. Their word was law, but they usually didn't know a darned
thing about pistols.

I would suggest that the "civilians" that you deride are actually ex-military men who spent
decades studying the issues of safety and ready use of the 1911 design for self defense
by civilians and have carefully selected Condition 1 as the best.

I have participated in and observed shooting 1911s from Condition 1 for well over 3 decades
in competition with COMPLETE safety. Those that fear Condition 1 are uninformed.

Bill

[35remington]

MtGun, somehow you think I am "deriding civilians" and you seem upset about it. I actually am not and did not mean to if that is how it seemed. Your comment about safety in drop testing isn't the same issue and is not the point I was making. I need to clarify a bit.

I don't fear Condition 1 in the least. I think some of my terminology was not well defined; I meant "affectation" as a synonym for "mannerism" but didn't mean to imply any fakery about it. My choice of words was unfortunate, I think. If I carry a 1911, I carry it cocked and locked......but I have no doubt civilians advocated this mode of carry far, far more often than the Army did. The immediacy of use for a pistol is different for a civilian than an enlisted man, in most cases. This probably influenced thinking in that regard.

The report you cite doesn't change my opinion and seems somewhat off topic. The Army, as an institution, is much more comfortable with an empty chamber. That they tested other methods for safety is undoubted; but it took civilian usage to make "cocked and locked" the norm. So I am crediting civilians for popularizing this mode of carry, not criticizing them. I have no doubt the gun is drop safe in its original configuration, and I prefer Series 70 type pistols myself, but that's off topic as well.

[SMCCORD]

"Get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get your self a Glock" -- Tommy Lee Jones

But seriously, cocked and locked.

[MtGun44]

35 Rem,

Sorry!

To me "affectation" implies silly, effete action without real need, just for show or
due to lack of understanding. I understood it as an intentional slur against this
practice.

You are exactly right that a civilian is more likely to need it instantly than a soldier,
the point of Cond One vs safer carry for non-critical situations.

Again - I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. We are at least 90% in agreement!

My point on the Army safety testing was to validate that Cond One isn't unsafe, which
is the common thread in many "anti-Condition One" arguments.

Also - I failed to note the name of the poster! I know you to be highly knowledgeable
about the 1911, so would have perhaps had a different take on the comments had
I considered my additional knowledge about the poster.

Bill

[35remington]

MtGun, your irritation had good foundation and it was my error in terminology. My phrasing was bad, and I forgot the negative connection that is often associated with the word.

Anyway, we are indeed in agreement, and finding myself at odds with you was not something I often experience about this kind of topic. Hasn't happened before, and the reason was an error on my part. Sorry about that.

[gandydancer]

Cylinder & slide safety fast system on my 1911 round in chamber and hammer down and safety on. release safety & hammer cocks automatically. works for me GD

Cylinder & Slide Inc

C&S Custom Handguns | SFS - Safety Fast Shooting System |

[MtGun44]

35Rem - glad to not be in disagreement with you! Besides, I recently bought a
Marlin in "your" caliber, and now have something else in common besides respect
for the 1911.

"Safety fast" works, but is really unnecesary. I believe this was copied from the
Browning HP 'Safety Fast' prototype for the US Army trials to replace the 1911. I handled this
prototype at the 1980 NRA show, and it worked fine.

However, if one is unconvinced on Condition One carry, "Safety Fast" is a viable alternative.

Bill

[Rick Hodges]

Lest I be branded as one opposed to condition 1 I would like to mention that I carried a Series 70 Government Model cocked and locked in either a ******* Shoulder Rig or a more conventional Don Hume strong side holster with leather under the hammer for some 4 1/2 yrs. while working plainclothes. This all came to a crashing end when a fellow officer blew a hole through and through one cheek of his a$$ with a Colt Commander that he carried on half cock in the small of his back.

Our Chief in his own remarkable way of over reacting banned single action weapons for on or off duty carry. (This was a couple of years prior to his changing the whole department over to those miserable Glocks....carried cocked and not locked...but you just can't see the hammer). Like most things the decisions seem to be made by those without the experience/expertise/ for those whose butts are on the line.

[August]

Nothing against the condition 1 argument.

However, the 1912 U.S. Army training manuals caution that the gun is NOT to be carried with the hammer cocked and safety locked.

I'm guessing there were some "incidents" during the first year of adoption that result in this advise.

Since there are several ways that things can go wrong with a cocked and locked pistol, or even one in condition 2, it is probably -- over the long run-- ill advised. That certainly was the U.S. Army's conclusion.

Glocks are nice.

[Judan_454]

The Remington 1911 r1 has a series 80 safety is this safe to carry in condition 2 ?

[gandydancer]

35Rem - glad to not be in disagreement with you! Besides, I recently bought a
Marlin in "your" caliber, and now have something else in common besides respect
for the 1911.

"Safety fast" works, but is really unnecesary. I believe this was copied from the
Browning HP 'Safety Fast' prototype for the US Army trials to replace the 1911. I handled this
prototype at the 1980 NRA show, and it worked fine.

However, if one is unconvinced on Condition One carry, "Safety Fast" is a viable alternative.

Bill
I carried a 1911 colt series 70 in a shoulder rig cocked and locked for a few years in the eighty's and never through much about it until one night I sat in a booth in a diner eating dinner and sitting right behind me in line with the barrel of my 1911 was a five year old little girl. Knowing that barrel with a round in the chamber was pointed at the little girls back made feel so uneasy I could not eat..I got up and went to the men's room and removed the round from the chamber. put the pistol back in leather cocked & locked and went back to eat. and have never carried one in a shoulder rig again. even with a SFS. GD

[MtGun44]

This is why I am totally unwilling to use ANY horizontal carry shoulder holster. Up or down
are safe most of the time, but IMO ALL horizontal carry holsters are fundamentally and
unacceptably unsafe with any gun, regardless.

First rule of gun safety (never point) is almost continuously in violation with these holsters.

Unacceptable, IMO.

They are banned in IPSC competition for this reason.

Bill