Optimal boolit hardness for 43 Beaumont?

[sourceofuncertainty]

Hi all,

I tracked down a nice condition Dutch Beaumont a few months back and have been itching to build some rounds for her.

I've got the brass (betram, crazy expensive), the dies (CH4D, also pricey) and everything else I need. I've slugged the bore (.454-.455) and made a chamber casting.

But I'm stuck on one issue: how hard or soft should the boolits be?

My plan is to make two loads: one approximating the military load, using a lee 340gr 457-340-F and one with a larger slug from a 385-gr Lyman 457124.

I was thinking at first that I wanted the softest possible boolit since the original slugs were likely pure lead or similar. But given that these babies will eventually travel 1300 or 1400 fps, I'm not so sure.

The boolits I've turned out so far with both moulds register below BNH 8 according to my LEE hardness tester. I'm thinking this might be too soft.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or experiences would be greatly appreciated. I've read the other threads about loading for this rifle but haven't seen much discussion of boolit hardness.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I do not shoot this particular rifle or caliber but some items are basic in our quest for accuracy.
Your boolit hardness is about what I would expect for this erra of rifle. I have shot alot of 40-1 in 45-70, 38-55, 44-40, 45 Colt, 43 Spanish... at your desired velocity which is right about that hardness. Using smokeless & BP it works well. The right lube & diameter are essential.
What propellant are you looking at ?
If you are using smokeless than I would be sure my projectile had a good fit in the throat area. Plus the long military barrels demand more lube on the boolit than the shallow groove designs carry.
With a case full of 2F you are going to have some "bump up" on that light weight boolit and more with the heavier one. A couple thousanths less diameter will let you reload with a fouled throat. With BP you are going to have to carry enough BP lube to get to the end of the barrel. Boolits with shallow grooves are not going to do this. I dip boolit noses in BP lube to help those shallow groovers work better. You may need to wipe the barrel after 5 shots or more or even less. Barrels are interesting individuals.
I tend to keep my boolits soft until I see a reason to make them harder. Granted in a 30-06 I start harder. But these old calibers are not a real pressure problem for lead if the correct diameter is used with sufficient lube of the correct type.
Mike in Peru

[Doc Highwall]

Bullet fit/size is more important then hardness. Slug your barrel down by the chamber and size your bullets .001"-.002" larger and you should have no problem.

Also make sure you use a case neck expander that is .001"-.002" smaller then your sized bullet.

[perotter]

For my Dutch Beaumont I use WW that are water dropped. I have no idea what the BNH would be, but they shoot well. The load is close(-25 fps) to org fps with homemade smokey powder. Surprisingly accurate.

FWIW, I converted 45/70 brass by fire forming them. I just size the neck & crimp the bullet. Never bought any dies that are for this round.

[sourceofuncertainty]

Thanks everyone for the replies - that's helpful.

To address some of the questions posed:

- I plan to use 5744 smokeless powder.

- The bore slugs at about .455 at the muzzle. Wouldn't I want to go a couple thousandths larger than the size at the muzzle? I had planned to size down to .457. I'd have to check my notes but I'm fairly certain that at the chamber end the rifling is .462 or more. The barrel is in excellent shape - the gun was rebarreled at some point - so I have reason to believe it's close to original spec.

- I was planning to use a homemade lithi-bee lube, though I'm open to recommendations on that. I have some Carnuba Red but I'm thinking it's better used for higher velocity rounds.

[jonk]

While I don't have a Beaumont, my general rule of thumb is dead soft for blackpowder, ACWW for smokeless.

If you shoot the bullet at .457" with smokeless, i think ACWW or similar is fine.

[Mk42gunner]

My inital thought was to recommend 20-1 lead-tin, but Mike has more experience than I do so go with his 40-1 at least at first.

If your throat/ origin of rifling groove depth is .462"; I would size for that instead of sizing for the muzzle, like Doc Highwall said.

Robert

[Larry Gibson]

If you are really going to push 1300 - 1400 fps then I'd suggest 16-1 alloy for BP loads. That's the alloy that Frankford Arsenal setteled on for the 45-70 bullets in that same velocity range for best accuracy.

For smokeless loads with 5744 if the 16-1 alloy didn't work I would suggest WWs + 2% tin and then mixed 50-50 with lead. That should give a sufficient hard bullet and will shoot very well at 1300 - 1400 fps. I push 16-1 alloy to 1600 fps with excellent accuracy so I expect it will work out fine in your .43.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I shoot a 43 Mauser with boolits of 8 BHN seated out into the rifling. I use 2400 in this rifle but have used BP also. Carnuba Red works well to control leading in this very long barrel, 30" plus.
I have used SPG for the BP loads and am going to try a couple of other BP lubes also.

[JIMinPHX]

off the top of my head, I seem to remember a rule of thumb formula of 1440 x bnh = psi that you can use to calculate the optimum hardness of a flat base boolit if you know how much pressure you plan to push it with. This is just a rule of thumb that gives you a good starting point from which you can then dial in the details.

Regards,
Jim

[Larry Gibson]

........- I plan to use 5744 smokeless powder.

- The bore slugs at about .455 at the muzzle. Wouldn't I want to go a couple thousandths larger than the size at the muzzle? I had planned to size down to .457. I'd have to check my notes but I'm fairly certain that at the chamber end the rifling is .462 or more. The barrel is in excellent shape - the gun was rebarreled at some point - so I have reason to believe it's close to original spec.

- I was planning to use a homemade lithi-bee lube, though I'm open to recommendations on that. I have some Carnuba Red but I'm thinking it's better used for higher velocity rounds.

Most 20-1 alloys will run 8 - 11 BHN. I prefer 16-1 alloy for my 45-70, handgun magnum and .50 cal ML loads in the 1400 - 1600 fps range. However, with smokeless powders an alloy of WWs + 2% tin + 50% lead will also work very well in that velocity range.

.457 - .459 should work very well.

I suggest a lube of 5 parts beeswax to 4 parts virgin olive oil. Easy to make and easy to use in a lubrasizer. It's the lube I use for my BP and smokless and BP loads in the 45-70 and ML with cast bullets. If you want to make it I can post the simple directions?

Larry Gibson

[sourceofuncertainty]

If you want to make it I can post the simple directions?

Thanks Larry; that sounds like an interesting recipe - yes, please do post the directions if you don't mind.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Larry; that sounds like an interesting recipe - yes, please do post the directions if you don't mind.

In a small sauce pan filled about 1/3 with water place a small (pint size) Pyrex measuring cup with the handle over the edge of the pan. Pour in 4 oz of virgin olive oil and place on an electric stove to heat up. I bring the water to just short of boiling (this set up is referred to as a “double boiler”). Add pure beeswax until there is 9 oz of melted mixture in the Pyrex cup. I stir it with a wood tongue depressor. This makes a 4 – 5 part mix (olive oil to beeswax). Of course larger amounts may be made but adjust the amounts to maintain the 4-5 part mix.

The melted lube may be poured into the reservoir of a lube/sizer. It will cool and harden in short order and is immediately useable. I leave the remainder of the mix in the Pyrex cup (wife made me buy her a new one after the first use) and store it in a quart Ziploc bag (keeps it clean). When more lube is needed just put the Pyrex cup with lube into the sauce pan of water and melt it on the electric stove again. It is useable this way until the mix is depleted or you add more beeswax and olive oil (in the proper 4-5 proportion) to make more.

With some bullets I hand lube them while watching a good movie on TV. I cut the wood tongue depressor at a 45 degree angle on one end making a sort of knife edge. I scrape a small amount off the cold lube mix and roll it between my thumb and fore finger. The lube becomes soft and malleable very quickly. It is then rubbed into the lube grooves on the bullets. I can usually do a couple hundred REALs or Maxi-Balls during a John Wayne flick. A couple paper towels control any messy fingers to keep the wife happy. I prefer this method over the pan lube method as I find that pretty messy. However, this lube works well with the pan lube method.

I have found this simple and easy to make lube to be every bit as effective as any of the witchcraft brews often recommended. I’ve also found it as good as SPG. I’ve not found any difference in the bore fouling using this lube with BP as with any other lube. The fouling remains as soft for as long as the others. Accuracy with this lube is also the equal of any others. I recommend it because it is easy to make out of inexpensive components and it works up to 1800 fps or so (fastes I've tested it at).


Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

Larry, are you measuring those ounces by weight or by volume?

[Larry Gibson]

Volume as per the measuring scale on the side of the Pyrex cup. Not exactly rocket science but it's easy and close enough for government work.

Larry Gibson

[Gee_Wizz01]

I was just browsing this morning and saw this thread. I have best results using IMR 4198, it gave better results in my Beaumont that I was able to achieve with 5744. For brass, I made mine up from Starline 50-90 Sharps and Magtech 32 gauge brass shotshells. The boolits I used were the Ranch Dog TLC460-350RF with a gas check, and the Lee 340gr Flat nose. Both boolits gave good results and I am getting an average of 2 1/2" with 5 shot groups at 50yds. I am shure the rifle can do better, but my old eyes and the poor sights on the Beaumont make accurate shooting difficult for me.

The Starline 50-90 provides a very strong case, but the base of the 50-90 is smaller than the .43 Beaumont, resulting in a noticeable bulge ahead of the cartridge base. The resulting case works fine in the Beaumont and I have 8 loadings on a lot of 20 and I think they will be good for many more loadings. The 32 gauge brass shells produce a better looking case, but they are certainly not as strong as the 50-90 cases. The 32 gauge brass is thinner and they are of the balloon head construction. That being said I have no issues with any cases made from the 32 gauge brass. I anneal all of my cases during forming and every 2 or 3 loadings.

Good Luck and give us some updates.

G

[Ed in North Texas]

snip

The Starline 50-90 provides a very strong case, but the base of the 50-90 is smaller than the .43 Beaumont, resulting in a noticeable bulge ahead of the cartridge base. The resulting case works fine in the Beaumont and I have 8 loadings on a lot of 20 and I think they will be good for many more loadings. The 32 gauge brass shells produce a better looking case, but they are certainly not as strong as the 50-90 cases. The 32 gauge brass is thinner and they are of the balloon head construction. That being said I have no issues with any cases made from the 32 gauge brass. I anneal all of my cases during forming and every 2 or 3 loadings.

Good Luck and give us some updates.

G

Gee, Do you have the 71-88 Beaumont-Vitali, or the unconverted single shot? If you have the magazine fed Beaumont-Vitali, do you have any problem with the Magtech cases feeding from the magazine? Thanks for answering.

Ed

[Gee_Wizz01]

Ed, I have a 71-88, and the Magtech cases feed perfectly from the magazine. I have noticed that the Magtech cases do not eject well, if the magazine is empty. The Magtech cases have a smaller rim than the cases made from the 50-90 brass, and they drop out from the extractors when the cases are about 3/4 of the way out of the chamber if the bolt is opened slowly. When the magazine has a round in it, the round in the mag keeps the round in the bolt from dropping out of the extractors. They usually work fine if I work the bolt quickly. Are you having feeding problems?

G

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, I have a 71-88, and the Magtech cases feed perfectly from the magazine. I have noticed that the Magtech cases do not eject well, if the magazine is empty. The Magtech cases have a smaller rim than the cases made from the 50-90 brass, and they drop out from the extractors when the cases are about 3/4 of the way out of the chamber if the bolt is opened slowly. When the magazine has a round in it, the round in the mag keeps the round in the bolt from dropping out of the extractors. They usually work fine if I work the bolt quickly. Are you having feeding problems?

G

Looking for information. I haven't received my rifle yet and was wondering whether there was a down side (other than a potential for shorter case life than Starline .50-90 brass) to using the Magtech cases. I had read somewhere that the Magtech cases weren't "magazine friendly", but I now recollect the issue was as you describe.

Be a while before I get back home, like late September, and then some time after that to load and shoot the rifle.

Ed

[Wayne Smith]

One solution for using the 50-90 brass is to wrap the web area with a layer or two of tape so that it fits tightly in the chamber. This allows the rest of the case to expand equally and keeps the base centered. After you have fireformed the cases you can take the tape off or leave it on, up to you. Do not full size resize these cases if it can be avoided. Neck sizing should be enough.

[sourceofuncertainty]

It's been forever, but I finally finished a test batch for the Dutch Beaumont. Pic attached.

For reference, here are the specs:

New Bertram brass, which out of the box was slightly too short (about 2.03 rather than 2.04 as called for in the spec). The necks were undersized too; I opened them up a little with the CH4D expander die then used a LEE universal die to flare the case mouths just enough to accept the projectiles.

Projectile: 385gr WW-lead mix BHN of about 8, cast with Lyman 457124 mould

Boolits sized to .457 using LEE sizing die

Primed with Winchester large rifle primers

25.0 grains Accurate 5744, boolits seated with CH4D seating die. VERY light crimp added as a final step, though for future loadings I'll probably skip this step as I suspect it's not needed.

C.O.A.L. ended up at 2.5" average though I was trying for 2.54". Probably close enough.

We'll see how they do... I have a couple of other boolit sizes to try once I verify that this recipe is ok.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_13226507a28c0c8173.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7029)
(.223 included for size reference)