458 win mag report

[offshore44]

Well, it's been a little while since I started messing about with my CZ big bore and the results are VERY encouraging. I've got seven distinct loads worked up that shoot 2" or better at 100 yards on a very consistent basis. You folks have been a huge help there. Thanks!

I've got:
a 230 pp load for plinking / "squirrel hunting"
a 350 grn gc load
a 350 grn PP load that is my most accurate so far, but not by much
a 405 grn pp load that is my favorite
a 465 grn gc load that I'll probably never use
a 465 pp load that I'll probably never use
a load using windrider's custom pp boolit that is starting to show a bunch of promise now that I know enough to actually load for it. (I may have to order that mold if it is still available)

That's seven, right?

I started out with 150 Hornady cases and have only lost six of them due to one reason or another. They all have about four to five reloads on them so far and show no signs of failing yet. Good stuff there.

I did need to open up my bullet seating die to reload the paper patched stuff, and may need to open it up a few more thousandths to accommodate the patched boolit diameter that my rifle seems to like. No big deal now.

Dacron filler no longer scares the heck out of me, and turned out to be useful in one of my loads.

I'm using softer and cheaper alloys now and it's working really well so far.

I patch to fit the rifle's throat and no longer size the cases. Just clean them up, prime them, put a flare on the case mouth and reload. Works great and greatly increases accuracy measurably. Some loads get a mild crimp with a Lee factory crimp die and some just get the case mouth ironed out. All will feed five from the magazine just fine.

Damp or rainy weather doesn't bother me or the rifle any longer. Just another day on the range... The paper patches do just fine as long as they don't get soaking wet.

I'm down to using just two powders, H4895 and 5744 for all my loads. Though that may change as I work on greater accuracy with the heavier loads. Something just a little faster may be a better choice than H4895, but for now it's all working well.

I'm learning to shoot and reload for a big bore. That's a good thing and a lot of fun to boot! The 458 win mag goes out on every outing now, and gets shot more than any of my other rifles. The nearest competitor is the two Mauser 8x57's.

The versatility and utility of the 458 win mag never ceases to amaze me. It is strange how this went from a toy to my go-to rifle, kinda like my 1911 and the cast loads for it. Every time I head out into the woods they both go with me and get shot a little or a lot.

Clean up and maintenance is really easy as well. The paper patched loads really don't need a cleaning after every outing, but the rifle gets one every time it comes home anyway, just so the bore stays oiled. Two pulls of the bore snake and an oily patch on the pull through and she's as good as new. Gotta love that!

There is one more load that needs to be developed. A .410 shotgun substitute load and then it's all load refinement and practice.

The CZ is a big rifle, size-wise, but then I'm a bigger guy. This thing fits me like it was custom made for me. It feels like a rifle should feel when you shoulder it. Solid and steady. When you touch it off, you know that you are shooting something. The is no doubt that the rifle discharged.

The next big project is a transit box to hold the rifle, accessories, cleaning and maintenance tools and supplies, and casting and reloading gear.

I'm sold on the rifle and sold on the caliber! :cbpour:

I just checked and I've only been working on this for just a few days over a year now...cool!

[303Guy]

It's amazing how things come together. It seems like a tamed 458 is a choice cartridge. I does sound ideal for paper patching and is a decent size boolit to hold for wrapping.

[offshore44]

I almost want to rename it to something like the "45-95 Belted Express" or something to get away from the common prejudices that most folks hold.

The cartridge violates a whole bunch of smokeless paper patching rules though. You have to patch to throat size, not groove size for one. You can go a couple of thousandths over bore size and it really doesn't make that much difference. If you feed from the magazine, you have to crimp. Figuring out where and how much to crimp is very time consuming and leads to lead in the bore as often as not. There are a whole bunch of small compromises that have to be made, and documented for review as you go through working up a load. What works for one boolit weight really doesn't work for another...that one drove me to distraction with the 350 grain load.

I forgot to mention that this rifle has also broken me of the "faster is better" thing. Learn how to shoot a trajectory and bullet drop is not that big a deal. I do it with the .22, so why not with the 458? As the loads get refined I am discovering that my velocities are dropping, or at least my expectations for what usable velocities are. It seems that 1800 - 1900 fps is a sweet spot for this rifle. Probably a combination of reduced recoil, a barrel accuracy node and other factors that I don't understand yet. I don't always get confetti, but it sure seems to be shooting to point of aim. If a person can go out and shoot 50 - 100 rounds off the bench in a day, with a 400 grn patched boolit to boot, and not end up with a bruise, that's pretty good. I'm pretty sure that there is nothing that can't be hunted around here that won't fall cleanly to that round.

My manual dexterity isn't what it once was, and you're correct. It's a great boolit size to learn on. Shooting the 230 grn paper patched in that heavy rifle is about like shooting a .22. Patching those things is a royal pain because they are so short. The paper tends to come off during reloading if you don't knurl them as well. It took me several hours to get the hang of patching those.

I just had a thought..."Great, I just reinvented the flintlock squirrel gun. And it only took me a year and hundreds of hours of work to do it!" :lol:[smilie=b:

[303Guy]

Learn how to shoot a trajectory and bullet drop is not that big a deal. I do it with the .22, so why not with the 458?Exactly! I'm off to test my 'fire-polishing' loads this afternoon. I'm astounded that the recovered boolit looks like it was fired in a mint bore. I'm busy loading up 15 then out to shoot them and see what happens. Velocity is pretty low, probably slower than a 22 subsonic but 100 shots with a subsonic is doable with a little practice at range finding and drop compensation. Bush shots are going to be within 22 ranges anyway. In my case, the boolit (or should I say torpedo) is not going to slow down much. I'll be reporting back in a new thread (if these things have any form of accuracy that is!)

[offshore44]

I've been following your pig gun project right along. I envy you folks your access to sound suppressors. We can get'em, but we pay a tax and jump through a lot of hoops to do so. Plus it probably puts a person on a bunch of lists that you would rather not be on right now. Oh well.

Say, I may have happened into a No5 MK1 that is all original and is in really nice condition. (after some work anyway) If so, I am going to need advice on casting and loading for that. Well, off to cook dinner for the clan!

Good luck with your pig gun and the torpedoes.

[abob]

Offshore - could you please share a couple of details of your success. I am planning on taking my 458WM on a spring bear hunt in a month and a half and hope to load a 400 grain PP. What diameter are your pre-patch naked bullits? I have a Lee push through sizer for .454 that I was going to try with my Lyman mold. I have in the past likewise found its best to not re-size brass and load PP to fit throat more or less. Also interested in your powder charge amounts... thanks for sharing --- Cheers - Bob in BC.

[offshore44]

Offshore - could you please share a couple of details of your success. I am planning on taking my 458WM on a spring bear hunt in a month and a half and hope to load a 400 grain PP. What diameter are your pre-patch naked bullits? I have a Lee push through sizer for .454 that I was going to try with my Lyman mold. I have in the past likewise found its best to not re-size brass and load PP to fit throat more or less. Also interested in your powder charge amounts... thanks for sharing --- Cheers - Bob in BC.

Howdy Bob!

I have a base first sizing die in a Lyman 4500 lubra-sizer that I use for 45 ACP. I size to 0.452". They actually come out just a few ten-thousandths over that...say 0.4522 to 0.4525". My Brown & Sharpe Micrometer hasn't been calibrated in a few years, but it does check out OK against a standard. I use the reloading data from the Lyman reloading handbook for the 458 Win Mag and a 400 grn j-word bullet. The powder charge is 77.0 grns of H4895. That is right on the verge of getting the paper patch to confetti. Depending on altitude and weather it confetti's or powders the paper jacket. The PPCB is seated 0.250" into the case, which happily allows me to put a very light crimp into the top lube groove on my boolits. I use the Lee factory crimp die, and go just past ironing out the bell in the case mouth. Be careful of bullet setback with this load. They will set back with this load if everything isn't just right. That WILL cause pressure to skyrocket! Bad cess right there. The paper is 100% rag vellum. That is pretty tough stuff, and it needs to be to withstand the crimp without failing. The PPCB is 0.462" OD after wrapping and drying. I do not lube or size the PPCB after wrapping. If I am going out in very damp conditions, the exposed PP gets a finger wipe of bees wax and petroleum distillates and allowed to dry so that it is water resistant. When I patch, the patch is folded over the tail of the bullet and firmly pressed flat. It extends just past the break in the ogive by about a 1/16" of an inch, or as much as will shrink when dried to a tight fit.

Having said all of that...you must determine what works in your 458. It takes some time and effort. My CZ is a classic Safari rifle with the generous chamber and long leade. Consult a reloading manual and CAREFULLY work up a load for YOUR rifle. Be especially aware of the bullet set back issue when feeding from the magazine. Also be aware that under certain circumstances the patch will be cut and get between the case and chamber wall. You won't know that this happened until you extract the case and see the imprint on the case. Doesn't seem to hurt anything, but not conducive to good consistency and accuracy.

On another note: I have never recovered one of these from the backstop. The hole in the clay backstop. is about 3/4" to 1" in diameter and goes further back than I have been able to discover. Should hammer a bear pretty good. I would make sure that these feed reliably, for hunting bear. I had problems with some Oregon Trail cast that would hang up on the feed ramp occasionally. It depended on how fast the round was chambered. Good luck and good hunting!

Edited to add: I went out and changed oil in the wife's car, and I was thinking about what I wrote above...thought that I would add a couple of thoughts. This load is exiting the muzzle at right around 2,350 fps according to my notes. Very consistent. The CZ 550 is a big, heavy rifle. If you are shooting a lighter weight rig, understand that the recoil on that load is going to make your eyes water a bit and slobber to spray about if you are not used to shooting the big magnums off the bench. I am in the process of reducing all of my loads to the 1,800 fps range. I just no longer think that the 458 needs all that velocity to do it's job well, and the reduced recoil of the slower loads does help with accuracy and recoil reduction. The alloy for those loads was wheel weights with 2% tin. The 458 can be finicky about hardness, even with paper patched. With my current program of reduced velocity I am sizing and wrapping the same, but the alloy is Pb with 5% tin. I am using 5744 powder, but don't have a load worked up yet to my satisfaction. I'm still messing about with that powder with and without Dacron fillers. The Ramshot / Accurate ballisticion that I corresponded with gave me loading data for 5744 that started out at 36.5 grns @1550 to 1,650 fps to a max of 54.0 grns @ 2200 to 2300 fps. A load of 44.0 grns is right at the 1800 fps mark give or take. The 458 seems to like the CCI large rifle primers with all the loads / powders that I have tested so far. I haven't seen the need for a magnum primer yet. I haven't seen any confetti with loads in the 44.0 grn range with 5744 either. Since you are going to have to work up a load for your rifle anyway, you might consider giving 5744 a try at a reduced velocity. I'm pretty sure the bear will never know the difference between a slightly harder PPCB at 2450 fps and a slightly softer PPCB tooling along in 1800 fps range. I do know that your follow up shot, if needed, will be faster and better at 1800 fps. This is true especially if you have a lighter weight rifle.

[303Guy]

Might I suggest trying wheat germ as a filler? It is light and fluffy and compressible but difficult to get even amounts because of it. It seems to protect the boolit base and form a wad and it does prevent gas cutting on plain cast. It's also nutritious so bugs get in. It also raises pressure some but not all that much.

[offshore44]

Might I suggest trying wheat germ as a filler? It is light and fluffy and compressible but difficult to get even amounts because of it. It seems to protect the boolit base and form a wad and it does prevent gas cutting on plain cast. It's also nutritious so bugs get in. It also raises pressure some but not all that much.

Wheat germ? I've read some postings on that...still haven't formed an opinion yet. Please tell me more. Like where do you get it, how do you use it & etc. Always open to new stuff.

I kind of live out in the hinterlands of the west coast of N.A., so it's sometimes easier to get parts for a 1954 Farmall tractor than shooting supplies.

[abob]

Great info and lots of details to think about -- thanks again for sharing Offshore! In the past--years ago, when I tried some PP in my 458 I used a bit of cotton batten as a filler and bullet base protector - some use dacron, the synthetic equivalent. I used IMR3031, working up loads also from the Lyman cast bullet handbook. Have a few days off from work now so will hopefully get some loading/shooting done. Will post when I get some results.

Happy and safe hunting/shooting --Bob.

[303Guy]

Wheat germ is a tiny part of a wheat kernel. Extremely high in protein, wheat germ is also high in vitamin E, ...It's high in all sorts of nutrients and is considered a health food so if you have a health shop in your parts you'll get it there. I found mine in the supermarket health section.

The significants of the vitamin E to us is that's the oil in it which possibly what makes it 'flow'. I use it for its oily-ness, compressibility and lightness. I want a 'bulk' filler to reduce free space.

I used to use wheat bran because of its fibrous nature. It too is highly nutritious which means you need to bake it to kill the bugs that would otherwise spin silk in it. Wheat germ does have the same problem but not so bad only you can't bake it without altering it. To ensure it does not compact under shaking leading to mixing with powder, it needs to be tapped into the case right up to the mouth. Wheat germ cleans the bore as well as wheat bran (or almost as well).

[Old Coot]

You could also try putting the wheat germ or wheat bran in the deep freezer for 5 to 10 days after you buy it. I routinely do this with flour to kill the moth eggs that always seem to find their way in.
Brodie

[windrider919]

Great review....Your procedure is almost exactly like I eventually worked out, based on past posts from the group it appears our advice helped you shorten the experimental time conmsiderably.

I would mention that I dip the mouth of the cases about 1/2 inch into my lead pot for three seconds and then quickly dunk the case about halfway into cold water every ten firings...this anneals the brass and keeps the case mouth belling from splitting any of them. I have cases that are on their FIFTH treatment. (Do this on sooty, uncleaned brass so the lead does not 'tin' the case brass)

Going to have to disagree with 303Guy on the organic filler...my experience is Te same as his...for 'FRESH' loaded rounds...but if it is used in rounds that are stored for later use...that it CLUMPS on rounds loaded for several months and not shot. And when it does shoot, it is bad about forming a ring inside the case mouth with the center 'blown out'. And it is 'cooked' by firing and is hard to remove with a tool such as a screwdriver. A trip through a vibratory case polisher loaded with rouge and walnut shell will not remove it! This packing/clumping is true of Cream of Wheat, grits, Farnia, AND Wheat germ, ETC. And MOST OF ALL, aged rounds LOSE ACCURACY when the organic filler clumps and does not do it's 'job'!!!

YEARS of shooting the different fillers and buffers taught me to stay away from the organic fillers. I bought a pillows amount of Dacron twenty years ago and still am using minimal 'puffs' of it. and then I discovered the joys of working with PSB buffer! One purchase will last you a DECADE. Just saying what my experience is so you will benefit from mine.

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PRE&Product_Code=PRPSB22&Category_Code=BUFFER

Precision Reloading's Spherical Shotshell Buffer (22 oz.) *

Code: PRPSB22
Price: $8.99
* A buffer so perfectly spherical and so even in size that it pours into your hull around your shot without the nuisance of a lot of shaking and vibrating. Never substitute brands or types unless specified in properly tested data. Follow the instructions for the use of buffer. Recommended in Tom Roster’s manual.

Note: that either of these is the ONLY filler/buffer I will use on any bottle-necked case as I had the scary experience of 'proof testing' a Remington 700, 30-06 (mfg circa 1985) where the COW had (evidently) clumped {based on pulling the rest of the eight month old, 49 loaded rounds apart - they were ALL solid/clumped/packed}. there was only about 1/2 inch of COW, from the base of the bullet which was close to even with the neck/shoulder point on down....but this made a plug LARGER than bore size that had to force through the reduction of the cartridge shoulder area on firing!!!!!!!. Further Note - this had NOT been a compressed load...the COW clumped even though it was inside a 'sealed case' and lightly filled. We had to beat the bolt action rifle open with a plastic mallet it was jammed so badly and the bolt had set back in excessive headspace almost .017.
This load had been SAFE and accurate just months before...TIME for the organic filler to clump was the reason this nice rifle was ruined.

[offshore44]

Truth there, windrider...I'd still be shooting gas checked grease groove boolits if it wasn't for you guys and all the good advice and information that is available here.

I did end up knurling the .45 ACP boolits that I paper patched for the extra light loads. Grabbed one of my files that looked "about right" and rolled them between the file and a rubber coated steel bench block that I've had for years. They turned out nice...even knurling and all. It sure helped getting the patches on those things. Those ACP boolits are REALLY short compared to normal 458 boolits.

Before I forget: Pac-Nor has a 458 Winchester Magnum chamber reamer that they call a "no throat" reamer. No details on that, but it is in their list of chambering reamers. If I ever get to do a Ruger #1, it will be with a slower twist and no throat. Well, less of a throat than the SAAMI standard anyway.

The comment about reinventing the express rifle just cracks me up. That's exactly what we are doing with these 458's. I've started to call the chambering a 45-95 belted express, just for giggles. The typical conversation goes something kinda like this: Nice rifle. Looks big. What is it? To which I respond - Ya, it's a 45-95 belted express. Most folks go Uhmmm... I pull out one of the big paper patched rounds and ask "Wanna try it?" with a big grin. Not many takers, on that one. Most folks are surprised at how well it shoots though.

Take care everyone... I'll be back with more when I get more to report.