Winchester Model 1895, the lever gun that went to war

[Hang Fire]

This video is about the Finnish civil war of 1918. On one side was the White army, on the other is the Red (communist) army. At 2:09 of the video there is a young Red soldier with a Winchester 1895 musket, of which Russia had purchased hundreds of thousands. So the Finnish Red soldier must have gotten the rifle from the then Soviet government. The Finnish Whites won the civil war, only to later fight two wars against the Soviet Union, and the Finns prevailed in both.

As in most all civil wars, the Finnish civil war was horrible in it's duration and aftermath. The White faction executed and starved to death tens of thousands of Red prisoners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRcW82jJvyE

[Jon K]

1895 with bayonet.....Cool

Jon

[fatelk]

I helped rebuild one of these years ago for an acquaintance. He handed it to me as an action only, no barrel, stock, or bluing remaining. It took me a little bit to even know what it was, until I saw "7.62" on the top of the receiver.

Notice I wrote "rebuild" and not "restore". We did it on the cheap and it turned out pretty good. He just wanted it to look nice, not necessarily original. He never would tell me where it came from.

[9.3X62AL]

Interesting film--thanks for posting this.

Did anyone else see the black swastika on white field displayed by the White biplane? The symbol is quite ancient, but it is intriguing that the Whites adopted it as their anti-Communist emblem. This might explain its adoption by the Nazis, who were staunchly anti-Soviet/anti-Communist.

I wish I could shed tears for the Russian or Finn Communist troops that met the fate mentioned previously. Having lived as a child through the Cuba Missile Crisis in 1962--the Viet Nam War as a teen--and the Cold War as a young adult, I have zero sympathy for any adherent to that Godless, soulless, lifeless, and oppressive way of thinking. The Whites/Finns likiely concluded that by killing them off, it prevented having to fight those specific SOBs a second time. And there were subsequent fights with the Soviets/Reds.

[Hang Fire]

The Finnish Swastika was actually in honor of the family crest for the King of Sweden. Who IIRC, gave the new government of Finland their first airplane, so they painted the Swastika on that plane, and then for all their planes thereafter through WW2.

I recently watched the Russian war movie "Transit" about Americans ferrying planes from Alaska to the USSR in WW2. In the opening scene, there was an old Inuit about to shoot a seal with a 1895, seems the Russians like to put it in quite a few of their movies.

[9.3X62AL]

And why not? The Winchester 1895 is one cool lever rifle!

[DanWalker]

And why not? The Winchester 1895 is one cool lever rifle!

I AGREE! I got a fierce hankering for one myself...in 405 of course.

[frank505]

Well Dan, maybe you should buy mine.

[Westerner]

Good morning gentelmen.
I just purchased a 1895 Win. built in 1896 according to the number on the tang and other parts. The rifle has been polished out and re parkerized with a new barrel in 30-40 Krag. The barrel has no markings so I had to pour a load of cerosafe in the chamber to see if it was as advertised. The barrel has been cleaned but not fired too much, in mirror finish and minimum spec. for jacketed bullets. Problem is there is no freebore for long lead bullets. Long range Cowboy Action Shooting is what it will be used for. My father had an original in 30-06 and proceeded to use modern hand loads and push the bolt face out of head space tollerences. A shame so I will be using original loadings with a hard cast 200 grain long land bearing nose gas check bullet. Wish me luck. Deadeye

[fatelk]

Well Dan, maybe you should buy mine.
I see your location. I was in Cody a few years ago. Was that your 1895 in .405 that I saw hanging on the wall in the museum there?:)

[Four Fingers of Death]

I always fancied a couple, on ein 303British and one in 7.62x54R. Although, I wouldn't turn my nose up at a 30Krag, 3006 or 405W or any other calibre that came to light!

I came very close to buying a 303 version at a gunshow in Sydney once, but it was just a bit too expensive for me. I don't know if it was the same rifle, but it sure looked like it but It looked exactly like the one used in the Nicole Kidman / Aussi Guy movie 'Australia.' I hired the video and checked it out several times, I have kn way of knowing, but I swear it looks like the same rifle.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Got my first 1895 30 Gov some years back.. no regrets. Have since purchased a couple more when I see a reasonable priced one. Heavy, long barreled but fun to haul about and shoot. Have not yet had a carbine... and a 405 is one more I will get one day. I really think the 1895 would make a dandy 375-06.
Mike in Peru

[Hang Fire]

Hey Dan, see you are in Cody and work in the oil patch, I retired from Marathon Oil Co. there in 1991.

[3006guns]

In all the years I've heard about the Russian government buying all those 1895's, no one has asked a simple question.....

Where are they now? Stashed in a warehouse? Used as fence pickets somewhere? Seems there'd be quite a market for them if located and imported.

[Hang Fire]

Several attempts have been made to import them, but fails because of the question, how much $. The Russians are well aware of the treasure trove they are sitting on, but insist on too high a price. By the time the rifles worked their way through several middle men with each taking a profit, the retail price would be outrageous.

[DanWalker]

Hey Dan, see you are in Cody and work in the oil patch, I retired from Marathon Oil Co. there in 1991.

SMALL WORLD!
I'm actually in Casper, but do spend quite a bit of my days off around cody and powell.
We coyote hunt and tool around out in oregon basin during the winter months.

[Hang Fire]

SMALL WORLD!
I'm actually in Casper, but do spend quite a bit of my days off around cody and powell.
We coyote hunt and tool around out in oregon basin during the winter months.

OB used to be good hunting for goats.

[bob208]

i have a 95 rifle in .30-40. it shoots real nice with my 220 gr. cast boolits. i also have a 95 in .35 winchester it is a take down which is hard to find in a 95.

the 95 is not the only winchester leaver to go to war. the 66 muskets was used by more then one mexican state also it was used by the truks againest the russians. there was also a 73 musket with a socket bayonet don't who used them.

i have a 94 carbine made in 32. it is in .32 win spl. marked u.s. gov. property.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I reckon there were a lot of 66, 73 and 92 winchesters that saw a lot of action in Mexico and south america over the years.

In the Australian Army Infantry museum at Singleton, there is a 1892 Winchester in 32/20. It went to the Dardenelles in WW1 with a Colonel. It saw a lot of use as a trench sniper rifle and accounted for a huge number of Turkish soldiers apparently.

There is also a MArlin machine gun, but it is not a levergun. :D

[Pioneer2]

I have seen the modern 06 versions re-bored to 9.3x62 as well.In Finland the Russian muskets were sporterized to 9.3x54R.About 9.3x57 power wise in a lever.Sako makes ammo.......Harold

[wildwilly]

In all the years I've heard about the Russian government buying all those 1895's, no one has asked a simple question.....

Where are they now? Stashed in a warehouse? Used as fence pickets somewhere? Seems there'd be quite a market for them if located and imported.


Back in the mid 1960's Martin B Retting sold unaltered Russian 1895's through his store, Ye Old Western Hunter, in Culver City, CA, and through Hunters Lodge in Alexandria, VA. They were listed at about $65. At that time I was more interested in KAR Mausers and '03 Springfields. :veryconfu

[Four Fingers of Death]

Back in the mid 1960's Martin B Retting sold unaltered Russian 1895's through his store, Ye Old Western Hunter, in Culver City, CA, and through Hunters Lodge in Alexandria, VA. They were listed at about $65. At that time I was more interested in KAR Mausers and '03 Springfields. :veryconfu

D'Oh!!!!!

[smokeywolf]

I know where there are 2 model '95s, a 30-06 and a Russian in of course 7.62 x 54. Yep, you gotta download the 30-06 to original pressures.

smokeywolf

[floodgate]

An old boy (mid-80's) in the Upper Mojave Desert where I lived in the '60's had a pair of special-order 1895 Short Rifles (NOT carbines) in .30-'03, in which he used hellacious hand loads. He would bring them in in alternate years to the local gunsmith to have the dished-in bolt faces welded up and the firing pins re-fitted. Pretty sturdy rifles! - floodgate

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have hardly ever seen one in Australia. Saw a 303 version at a gunshow once, good barrel, good all round condition, $1500. Unfortunately I saw it at the end of the show and had already blown the budget. Shame I didn't see it at the start ofthe show. I always fancied one in 303 and one in 7.62x54 R.

[quasi]

A few thousand Russian 95's were imported to Canada in the late 60's to early 70's. They were very rough condition to say the least. Most were rebarelled with #4 Lee-enfield barrels, and are fairly common as 95's go in Canada.

[Multigunner]

A military musket version of the 1899 Savage lever action was ordered by a Canadian militia outfit. I've heard these were a private purchase by a wealthy benefactor.
Few of these muskets have shown up in collections. These were chambered for the .303 Savage cartridge.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you took into account all of the dust ups and revolutions in Mexico and all points south, the 1892 Winchester could no doubt claim war service as well.

[gnoahhh]

The Finnish Whites won the civil war, only to later fight two wars against the Soviet Union, and the Finns prevailed in both.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRcW82jJvyE


Actually, they (mostly) won the first one (known as The Winter War) in 1939-40, but lost the second one after which the Soviet Union took back a lot of territory. They were allied with the Germans ('your enemy is my enemy') during the second go-around, stood alone in the first one. The pluck of the Finnish defenders notwithstanding during the Winter War, the Soviets were their own worst enemy and lost because of poor leadership and ill-preparedness. Had the Russkies played their A Game, it would have undoubtedly turned out differently. In the second go-around they had learned a lot of lessons from fighting the Wehrmacht, and their artillery, armor, and leadership was way better than in the Winter War, not to mention the military aid they were getting from Britain and the U.S..

The full-stocked Savage muskets referred to above were for the Montreal Home Guard in 1915, and never went overseas. Nice original examples (of which there are very few) typically fetch $5-6000 these days when they turn up. Many were sporterized over the years.

[Multigunner]

I've seen a truckload of Winchester Model 95 muskets in a Russian police surveilance tape shown in a documentary on black market weapons.

During WW2 the Russians gave their Mod 95 muskets and carbines (possibly cutdown muskets) to partizans fighting behind the German lines.
propaganda films of these in use by partizans suggest the rifles were already pretty beat up. I doubt many were ever returned to the Soviet government by those who had carried them.

IIRC Winchester sold these rifles to the Russians during WW1 when they found they could not deliver on a previous contract for a bolt action rifle. The Russians were not that pleased with the trade off, as the lever action was far from peasant soldier proof, and required more attention to maintenance than it was likely to receive in the trenches.

Canada also issued a number of Model 94 rifles to the forerunners of the present Ranger organization.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I've seen a truckload of Winchester Model 95 muskets in a Russian police surveilance tape shown in a documentary on black market weapons.

During WW2 the Russians gave their Mod 95 muskets and carbines (possibly cutdown muskets) to partizans fighting behind the German lines.
propaganda films of these in use by partizans suggest the rifles were already pretty beat up. I doubt many were ever returned to the Soviet government by those who had carried them.

IIRC Winchester sold these rifles to the Russians during WW1 when they found they could not deliver on a previous contract for a bolt action rifle. The Russians were not that pleased with the trade off, as the lever action was far from peasant soldier proof, and required more attention to maintenance than it was likely to receive in the trenches.

Canada also issued a number of Model 94 rifles to the forerunners of the present Ranger organization.

The fact that the lever was almost impossible to operate discreetly from the shoulder in the prone position was the main feature Tgats prevented any real success as a military arm. It had to lifted up or removed from the shoulder, turned sideways and cycle.

As to the rifles used by communist partisans most would have been lost in the field when they were betrayed just before the invasion (the allies didn't want armed commies running around after the war.

[Multigunner]

As to the rifles used by communist partisans most would have been lost in the field when they were betrayed just before the invasion (the allies didn't want armed commies running around after the war.

That was true enough of the French communist resistence fighters, many of them were surrounded and butchered while awaiting arms drops that never came.
I don't know much about the Soviet and Eastern European communists, though Stalinists liked to betray Leninists and vice versa.

The awkwardness of working a lever action while in the prone position was a minus.
The 95 in carbine form was a favorite of British mounted officers, because in a pinch you could work the lever action with one hand while using the other hand to keep the mount under control.
Most British model 95s were probably privately purchased by the officers who chose to use them.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Stalin would have wanted to tidy up loose ends. He suspected everyone was as nasty a piece of work as he was.

The difficulties with operating the rifle from the prone position was why most levers failed to gain any real military contracts.

British officers were also expected to be a bit 'special' by their troops and they often dressed and armed themselves in a different and often theatrical manner and their troops loved them for it. The 95 would have been a good arm for a cavalry officer, being thin it would have been easy to carry in a scabbard and fired the service ammo. The one handed operation would have also been somewhat of an asset.

[frank505]

Let us not forget the battle of Plevna in 1877(?) where the Turks slaughtered the Russians with Peabody rifles and Winchester 1866's. Probably the first time a lever gun was used in a battle.

[wallenba]

I think the Turks kicked the Serbians pretty hard with those too, IIRC.

frank505, that must be what I'm thinking. (Read your post after making mine.)

[Pioneer2]

On the palace gates in Nepal you will see two large Swastikas as well...........Harold

[Four Fingers of Death]

On the palace gates in Nepal you will see two large Swastikas as well...........Harold

The indians and many other cultures use the swastika as a good luck/charm symbol.

[Gtek]

I have had one I scored years ago in AZ. Picked it and a mint AG-42 Swede, 1300 for both. Mine has a few miles and I am sure a million stories. I wish they could be downloaded. Early 1917 in 54r. None import marked, Russian accept stamp on right butt, blue 40%, bore- frosty is being nice. Has two repairs on top wood that looks Com repair, 3/16" or so small blocks of light wood 90 degrees to stop cracks/splits. Complete tear down when brought home, headspace was good. I have shot her some over the years, 5"ish @ 100. I will admit I have had Marlinitis for 30+ and the 95's are my hunting buddies. Gtek

[sundog]

45th Inf Div original shoulder sleeve insignia was a swastika.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45th_Infantry_Division_%28United_States%29

scroll down and you'll see.

[Patrick56]

Interesting film--thanks for posting this.

Did anyone else see the black swastika on white field displayed by the White biplane? The symbol is quite ancient, but it is intriguing that the Whites adopted it as their anti-Communist emblem. This might explain its adoption by the Nazis, who were staunchly anti-Soviet/anti-Communist.

I wish I could shed tears for the Russian or Finn Communist troops that met the fate mentioned previously. Having lived as a child through the Cuba Missile Crisis in 1962--the Viet Nam War as a teen--and the Cold War as a young adult, I have zero sympathy for any adherent to that Godless, soulless, lifeless, and oppressive way of thinking. The Whites/Finns likiely concluded that by killing them off, it prevented having to fight those specific SOBs a second time. And there were subsequent fights with the Soviets/Reds.

Sorry, you got it wrong. The swastika was actually blue and was the symbol of the von Rosen family. They donated a monoplane ( a Thulin)to the Finnish army. The Finnish airforce adopted the blue swastika and marked the planes with it. The army used a black upright swastika on tanks. Both was dropped after the wars. About the von Rosen family from Sweden. I think a relative fought for the Biafrans flying a small MFI airplane equipped with rockets and a chewing gum in the plexi as a sight during the conflict.
The 1895 is very common in Finland as a lot was "liberated", mostly modified as it was not allowed to use the 7,62x54R for hunting. They were bored to 8,2 and 9,3mm using the same case, ie 8,2x 53R and 9,3x53R. Usually the stock was modified not allowing to fasten a bayonet. Some remain in the original caliber as collectors guns. Had one several years ago that was modified to 45-70Govt. Traded it for a Winchester 70 in .458.

[Pioneer2]

Just picked one up in .303 British with a 28" pipe! Made in 1915 according to the serial#.The bore was dark and filthy likely fired with corrosive ammo and put away dirty.Lots of rifling left and .311 bullet won't enter the muzzle entirely.Managed a 2" 50 yard group but got case head separations with Federal once fired brass and not with the Privi or Imperial.Not sure if I have a generous sized chamber or not?May need a taller front sight as rear buckhorn was at it's lowest setting and still printing 6" high at 50 yards. I hate buckhorns.May change to flat top at some point or perhaps rebarrel and go from there.

[Pioneer2]

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k606/mbogo3/PA270833.jpg
Tried it with jacketed .312 174gr SP Hornadys and it wasn't great with 36gr of RE#15[marked with X] but came around with 37gr of the same.Will have to try a little hotter and see if it behaves.It helps with the darned full buckhorn sights to wear the glasses you hate I guess.Wonder if it will shoot with cast.I'll likely change the rear sight to a flat top when I locate one and regulate it.No time for ******* around now going on a moose/elk hunt PDQ.........Harold

[Four Fingers of Death]

That would be a rifle worth rebarrelling pioneer, although it shows some promise as is. Well done!