Unburned I4227 powder

[kelbro]

Having sort of a problem with unburned powder in my 45 LC 7.5" SRH. Load is 23.4gr of IMR4227 behind 250gr XTPs with a medium crimp and stoked with a Fed 150 primer. Get a few grains in most cases. 'Problem' yes, but it shoots very well!

Not sure whether to try a heavier crimp or a WLP primer.

Anybody had this issue with IMR 4227 in this range?

[Hickory]

Try the heavier crimp first,
then if that don't do it for
you, try a magnum primer.

[Larry Gibson]

I always had better results with magnum primers with 4227 in .44 magnum and .45 Colt loads with 250 - 260 gr cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[CJR]

Here's what I do with my 44 Magnum Lyman 429421 loads with 25 gr. of IMR4227. In my mouth belling die, I reduce the die diameter so it enters a sized case without re-expanding the case and just bells the case mouth. Then the Keith is seated and roll-crimped. Magnum primers are then used. I've been shooting this load since the 60s and when shot over snow you will see 4227 granules. Because this is such an accurate load, with no leading, and I get a few grain kernels, I stick with this load.

Best regards,

CJR

[kelbro]

Thanks. I'll load a few with a WLP primer. A few with a little more crimp. A few with both and see what happens.

As good as it shoots, I can put up with it but I'd rather not. These SRHs are tight. A kernel or two of powder in the wrong place makes the cylinder really difficult to close.

Once my mold gets here, I probably won't be shooting these expensive J-words anymore and will have to work up a new load anyway.

[USSR]

You will always have some unburned kernals when using 4227. But 4227 produces some very accurate loads, and you just learn to live with it.

Don

[220swiftfn]

I have the same problem with IMR 4227 and WLP primers...... Not a problem in a revolver, problem in a '92........ Haven't tried them yet, but I have some loads with 2400 to see if they do the same.....


Dan

[runfiverun]

2400 will leave behind unburnt too, till you get up in the 18 gr area.
powder has a pressure zone it burns best in.
all powders have this.

[subsonic]

This is not uncommon. The only cure I have found is to switch powders. I don't know what pressure 4227 burns clean at, but it's definitely higher than what is safe in a Ruger only .45 Colt load. Your SRH might let you get there, as they can take more pressure than the SA guns.

[44man]

I started IHMSA long ago with 4227 in the .44 because everyone was using it. It made impressive groups at 200 meters. But then at a shoot, I learned the truth. Nobody was shooting the .44 good, neither was I.
I found as the gun got hot, the powders would burn faster and faster.
I found the same in the .45.
Switching to 296 in the Ruger let me win almost every production revolver shoot, even state with 79 out of 80. I used Fed 150 primers and still do. Misses were my fault, never the gun. I had a vision problem as I came to a six o'clock hold. The line between the bottom of the steel and sights never went away and I could raise well into the steel and still see it, that made me shoot over. I figured it out finally.
The .357 max LOVED 4227 and I shot a 39 out of 40 with a new Ruger with no sight settings. But it will NEVER go in my .44 or .45.
The gun must be kept dead cold and that is what causes the unburned powder. Mag primers do not help as they push out boolits before good ignition, increasing powder space.
Gun heat or sun heat will set your powder choice straight. 4227 is very sensitive to a few degrees. Calibers it works best in are small.
I grit my teeth when someone uses any 4227 in a .44, they just don't know! The .45 is not at home with it either.

[canyon-ghost]

Have a load in 22 Hornet that does that, I won't give it up even with much pressure from the guys. They say I should switch powders but, it hits everything I aim at! I'm keeping it!

Also thought mag primers sounded bad, I like regular primers and 2400 powder.

[kelbro]

Problem solved! Found a 2400 load that shoots even better.

[runfiverun]

james findings are much the same as mine.
the 4227 is fine for an occasional shot or for colder weather.

[220swiftfn]

2400 will leave behind unburnt too, till you get up in the 18 gr area.
powder has a pressure zone it burns best in.
all powders have this.

Yep, that's what I was thinking (goes along with the post about needing pressures higher than "Ruger only" 4227 loads...) Which is what I'm going for with the '92 (Ruger load data, that is....) Don't hold me to it, but IIRC, the load spread was from 18-21 grs 2400 give or take (I was going by book load, so if I just posted an excessive load, don't worry, I didn't load it....)

Dan

[SquirrelHollow]

Are you guys sure you're looking at unburned powder?

IMR and Hodgdon 4227 both use a "filler" that is often left in the chamber and barrel.
It isn't unburned, because it isn't supposed to burn.


It is added to the powder to increase volume, and prevent position-sensitivity in large cases.

[44man]

Are you guys sure you're looking at unburned powder?

IMR and Hodgdon 4227 both use a "filler" that is often left in the chamber and barrel.
It isn't unburned, because it isn't supposed to burn.


It is added to the powder to increase volume, and prevent position-sensitivity in large cases.
A friend is teaching his son to load and they made a bunch of .357 loads with 4227. I was down with them and I showed them a pile of unburned powder from each case as I tapped them on the bench. Pieces were even preventing the Colt crane from closing. Yes, they were powder particles.

[freedom475]

The 460S&W with 240 XTP's runs at high enough pressure to burn it all....but I am seeing exactly what 44man describes with temperature.... the first 4or5 rounds out of the cold 460 go over the chrony at around 2000fps.. and group into about 6-8"at 100yards, then it climbs to 2200fps and stays within 25fps ES for the duration of the shoot and groups close into around 2-3" at 100yards ...then if a cool down period is allowed groups open up and the fps drops back down 100-200fps[smilie=b:

[44man]

The 460S&W with 240 XTP's runs at high enough pressure to burn it all....but I am seeing exactly what 44man describes with temperature.... the first 4or5 rounds out of the cold 460 go over the chrony at around 2000fps.. and group into about 6-8"at 100yards, then it climbs to 2200fps and stays within 25fps ES for the duration of the shoot and groups close into around 2-3" at 100yards ...then if a cool down period is allowed groups open up and the fps drops back down 100-200fps[smilie=b:
That is not as bad as the .44. I would be 16 clicks higher at 200 meters from the start and hit 50 meters low in the dirt with the last shot.
Primers just got flatter and flatter as I went.

[kelbro]

A friend is teaching his son to load and they made a bunch of .357 loads with 4227. I was down with them and I showed them a pile of unburned powder from each case as I tapped them on the bench. Pieces were even preventing the Colt crane from closing. Yes, they were powder particles.

Same here. After 50 rounds, I had enough extra powder to load one more round.

[SquirrelHollow]

The 460S&W with 240 XTP's runs at high enough pressure to burn it all....

Sure it does...
It's a filler. It's not powder. :roll:

[220swiftfn]

Are you guys sure you're looking at unburned powder?

IMR and Hodgdon 4227 both use a "filler" that is often left in the chamber and barrel.
It isn't unburned, because it isn't supposed to burn.


It is added to the powder to increase volume, and prevent position-sensitivity in large cases.


Sure it does...
It's a filler. It's not powder. :roll:

Eh, why not, I'll play.....

I want you to think about this logically and carefully.... If a powder manufacturer WERE to mix a non-combustible in their powder, they'd get their butts sued off due to the inevitable hazards of the "filler" settling out. This could potentially cause either a bullet stuck in the bore (all or mostly filler in the case), or a gross overpressure round (all or mostly powder in the case). When is the last time that you saw a can of powder with the warning "shake can thoroughly before use"???

As my wife would say, "State your source".......




Dan

[mrjog]

I burn powder off anytime I have to pull a bullet. Or if I clean up at the bench. I like the smell. Anyhow I was in the same situation thinking I had unburned powder with 4227 in my magnums. So I collected a bunch of it and tried to burn it. I couldn't get it to porn. And anyone who has ever burned off specs of powder with a lighter or little torch can tell you, that even a spec of any powder will react enough for you to notice it. So I don't believe you are seeing unburned powder.

I'm not going to comment on the "filler" because I don't know enough about the subject. But I do have to say that 220swiftfn introduces an interesting notion in regards to the filler comment.

[44man]

I burn powder off anytime I have to pull a bullet. Or if I clean up at the bench. I like the smell. Anyhow I was in the same situation thinking I had unburned powder with 4227 in my magnums. So I collected a bunch of it and tried to burn it. I couldn't get it to porn. And anyone who has ever burned off specs of powder with a lighter or little torch can tell you, that even a spec of any powder will react enough for you to notice it. So I don't believe you are seeing unburned powder.

I'm not going to comment on the "filler" because I don't know enough about the subject. But I do have to say that 220swiftfn introduces an interesting notion in regards to the filler comment.
The powder is ruined, it will not burn anymore. Heat sucked the life out of it.
Get your gun hot and more and more 4227 will burn. Change the case to another caliber and it will be wonderful. 4227 has it's place but it is not in my .44!

[mrjog]

The powder is ruined, it will not burn anymore. Heat sucked the life out of it.
Get your gun hot and more and more 4227 will burn. Change the case to another caliber and it will be wonderful. 4227 has it's place but it is not in my .44!

What could I do to prove to myself that what you have stated is true?

I have used 4227 in 357s more than 44s. I see the same debris either way though.

[44man]

What could I do to prove to myself that what you have stated is true?

I have used 4227 in 357s more than 44s. I see the same debris either way though.
What was happening to me was the .44 kept shooting lower and lower with each shot and primers kept getting flatter. I dropped the loads and it did not help. For the last 5 rams, I centered the first and bottom of the belly the next, on down until I was 16 clicks over my normal setting yet hit 50 meters short on the fifth ram.
I never worried much about some unburned powder in the SBH but we had so much in the .357 it was keeping the crane from closing and he loaded to max. Accuracy was sad.
Now when I had the .357 max, it worked perfect.
Everyone using 4227 in the .44 shot terrible and blamed the gun or themselves, I never heard such cussing at a shooting line!
296 worked if the gun was smoking!

[rainierrifleco]

i found 4227 to be verry accurate in 22 hornet also but left big chunks in the barrel. i figured it was just dirty powder, found same result with 2400. nice and clean with h110 and lil gun