lee 459-405 question

[sffar]

I just received one of these trapdoor hollow based moulds, and just made my first casts. The size is okay at about .460, but there's a raised lip on the base, as apparently the hollow base plug rises a little far into the first band leaving some room around the edges for lead. It's thicker than flashing. Is this common, I'm wondering, or intentional, or should I exchange it? Doesn't seem quite right. Seeing as how this is a copy of an original bullet, I figured I'd better ask.
Sam

[Larry Gibson]

Picture?

Larry Gibson

[sffar]

I can try and make a picture in a little while, but the base isn't square–there's a ring around the edges. Just threw the boolits back in the pot and am going to give it another try.

Here we go . .

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184884f6e23a996eaa.jpg

This is a pretty solid little ring, and I'm thinking it shouldn't be there.

[sffar]

Picture's above. Thinking it should be sent back, but want to be sure. All the casts came out that way.
Sam

[Ragnarok]

I cast some with the same mold...purchased new a frw months back.

Mine had a similiar ring...but very thin..little more than flashing and could scrape off easy.

[Skipper]

It isn't normal. Mine come out clean as a whistle. What alloy are you using?

[sffar]

I was using 1:30. This is more than flashing–thick enough I had to wonder if it was there for a reason. As I look now I see the base plug extends visibly past the bottom of the base band, and the plug being narrower it's creating the ring. Sounds like it ought to go back. A nuisance.

[chuebner]

I have that same Lee mold bought several years back and all my boolits come out looking the same. My M1888 trapdoor slugs at .450 x.460 so I lapped the mold out to .462. The boolits shoot great with 50gr. 2F Schuetzen or 22gr. 5744. BUT the trapdoor really likes the Rapine 460-500 which is a copy of the 1881 Springfield Arsenal bullet. The Lee boolit performs the best in my Numrich rolling block or my shooting partners 1985 Marlin with 12gr. Unique.

Just shoot them, you'll probably be surprised.

charlie

[sffar]

If the rifle was ready to go I probably would at least give them a try, but I picked up my first Trapdoor the other day–dated 1889–although I think it's technically an 1884 model, and it's all apart getting cleaned up (amazingly well!) so I think I'll send it back. Lee should be held accountable for this kind of thing. I probably will have to lap it, as I think my grooves are .461, but I would prefer the base be square. I'll look into that Rapine 460-500, and I'm waiting on the Wolf book, so I'm hoping to make some ammunition that's accurate historically and otherwise. The bore looks great! The inside of the action looks as if it was made yesterday.
Sam

[sffar]

Midsouth very quickly sent me a replacement mould. Same problem with the ring at the bottom, only it's less even than the first one. Mould casts a little bigger than the first, but doesn't line up well so many bands don't meet properly and there are machine marks in the bands. Going to send them both back with the shipping label sent to return the first mould. Honestly, Lee really needs to get it together. This is shameful and unfair to the buyer and the seller.
Sam

[Texantothecore]

I can try and make a picture in a little while, but the base isn't square–there's a ring around the edges. Just threw the boolits back in the pot and am going to give it another try.

Here we go . .

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184884f6e23a996eaa.jpg

This is a pretty solid little ring, and I'm thinking it shouldn't be there.

I get the same effect but I think it is due to my habit of casting with a hot mold and hot batch of lead. The next batch will be much cooler.

[Maven]

Sam, While I think it is mostly a problem with the mold, it may also be a result of pressure casting. Have you tried casting with a ladle and SLOWLY filling the cavity to see if that prevents the base ring. Possibly you need less tin in the alloy too?

[sffar]

Maven and Texantothecore,
Thanks for the advice! I did some more casting today with the second mold–figured I'd have a pile and maybe try and slice the rings off so I had something to shoot. I did have a Waage pot turned to about nine, but didn't put the thermometer in. Bullets never got frosty, however. I was attempting the pressure cast technique earlier with these moulds, but today I did do some pouring close to the sprue plate as well. May have made a bit of a difference, but mostly it made the ring less consistent, though it did lessen it some. I tapped the mould halves and felt across the top when I closed it to try and make sure the halves lined up, and that helped line the bands up on the second mould. I was also wondering if heating things up to frostiness migtht expand the metals to where things lined up right, but it was hard to cast fast enough as it took time to line the halves up between casts. Got hot enough for the sprue to take a long time cooling on some casts. I was hoping I could finesse it, and I feel bad sending these back somehow, like the good folks at Midsouth are going to think I'm a crank! Oh, well! I've given it the best try I know how. I'll call Lee and explain the problem, and I'll even order another eventually, but not now from Midsouth. I'll wait for another batch–hopefully with a different inspector's name on it.
Sam

[chuebner]

Here is a pic of my Lee 459-405HB. Same ring as in previous pics. I ladle cast all my molds so maybe the idea of a pressure problem may have some merit.

charlie

[sffar]

That's it Charlie, exactly the same thing. I've been sitting here looking at whether I want to try and "fix" the second mould, and what I'm coming up with is to bend the bottom plate holding the base plug down a little, or peen the spot where the plug's connected to the plate to hold it down a little harder in it's groove thereby keeping it a little lower in the cavity. Maybe adjusting the plug, along with a lighter pouring technique would set it right. Does it look like the plug in your mould has room to float up and down enough that it might account for the ring?
Sam

[Figment]

I just cast yesterday with the same kind of mould that I have had for years . I use wheel weights for alloy . I get the same ridge around the bottom edge but it is flat and uniform none of the flashing shown in the pictures . I ladel pour . Looks like something is not lined up correctly . Call Lee

[chuebner]

Take a very close look at the base of your mold with the handles open, mold facing you. You will see a recessed edge that accepts the ring on the core plug when the mold is closed. Open and close the mold several times while looking at it and you will see how the parts just mate naturally together. You could try to bend the core plug attaching piece up or down to eliminate the ring but I believe the core plug attachment piece is meant to be parallel with the mold halves. If it were bent up or down it would produce an off center core and the bullet would be off balance to one side. I guess I'm saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. The ring on the finished bullet is supposed to be there. My mold came out of one of the first batches produced by Lee after Spence Wolf convinced them to make a trapdoor bullet mold.

charlie

[sffar]

I guess I'm saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. The ring on the finished bullet is supposed to be there. My mold came out of one of the first batches produced by Lee after Spence Wolf convinced them to make a trapdoor bullet mold.

charlie

That sounds good to me. There is some play in the plug so it sets easily in the mould halves. I moved the bottom plate down just a little and it does bind just a little now, but it can be pushed back. Just seems if there's supposed to be a ring there it should be even all around, so I'll try and cast so's to make the ring even and see how that looks. I'm happy if the ring's supposed to be there, so long as it doesn't cause the bullet to leave the barrel poorly.
Thanks.
Sam

[idahoron]

Here is a pic of my Lee 459-405HB. Same ring as in previous pics. I ladle cast all my molds so maybe the idea of a pressure problem may have some merit.

charlie

Mine look just like in this picture. It has a small lip but not like the OP picture. Ron

[downwind]

Mine cast the same

The hollow base plug sits deeper into the base of the bullet cavity than the bullets actual base and is a smaller diameter

It is not adjustable since it has a raised ring for alignment - outside of turning the height of the base pin down in a lathe

The base pin should be centered on the base of the bullet if it is not then it should be returned otherwise it will shoot fine.

DOWNWIND

[45-70 Chevroner]

I would at least size and lube some then load them up and see how they shoot. If it shoots well and doesn't lead the barrel, what difference does it make.

[Swampman]

Mine had the ring and was very tough to get good boolits from. Maybe one in 10 was useable. I sold it.

[Chicken Thief]

Well someone pull the golden spoon out of my ***.
I have retired one mould after 5k+ castings are going strong on number two and they all cast well and shoot just fine :)

Before you attack me, theese are cast of 100% lead so some slight blemishes are pesent:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010867.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010868.jpg

[odfairfaxsub]

they work good just like that with the ring and all.

[Rick459]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=59371

[sffar]

I sent one mould back to Midsouth, and the other back to Lee. Lee returned it with no bullet as an example of their success, but with a bit of what smells like 50/50 lube, an instruction sheet and a note that tells me to keep the core pin lubed with the 50/50. Well, I'll try it, but both moulds were already carefully prepped with preheating and Bullplate, so unless this is some secret trick I'm not holding my breath. Not gonna send it back again, either, so at the very least I'll be giving them a try with the base rings, seeing as how others have gotten them to shoot well. Just looks like about the crappiest base for a 45-70 bullet I can imagine–not flat with sharp edges. Anyway, I'll take Lee's advice and see if it improves things.
Sam

[MT Chambers]

Lee builds quite a bit of "play" into their precision reloading equipment, it's intentional and is for ease of use.

[Swampman]

Mine looked like those in the pic. I considered that unacceptable.