Lube cookie!

[RMulhern]

Any of you guys HAVE A CLUE....as to the function of a lube cookie??

Old heads....stay quiet!!

[PanaDP]

Is this a trick question?:-|

[waksupi]

It is something to dip in your glass of milk!

[Mooseman]

Is that for Constipation ???:mrgreen:

[Longwood]

My dog got a can of bacon grease once, and left what looked like a big cookie on my patio.:groner:

[Longwood]

If he had said green cookie,,,[smilie=1:

[catkiller45]

I know I am far from being a bondafied expert like most of you guys are..Here is what I have found so far as how good a grease cookie really is..My cookie was 3/16 inch thick....I found it to be totaly worthless...I had only 68 grains of 2F 1 .022 veg wad over powder then the cookie another .025 milk cartoon wad and then the bullet...There was very little lube at the end of the barrel,30 inch...I wiped between shot and had to use 2 wet patch to get the fouling out,befor the next shot...I think I have to agree with Matthew's book where he said the over powder wad will just push the lube out of the barrel....
So next time I am going with a piece of wax paper.....The lube is SPG,the same I use on the grease grooved bullets.....So is it a waste of time? I have no fracking idea.....You tell me

[bigted]

provide a bit of lube to the barrel and keep the fouling soft.

[nanuk]

I'm not sure you can reverse engineer this to find out exactly the mechanics involved

BUT my GUESS is it lays a layer of lube down on the bore, prior to the fouling crud being laid down, thereby doing two things
1) keeping fouling OFF the bore
2) adding the needed moisture BEHIND the lube to keep it soft enough for easy removal
EX/ grease up a steel plate, then pour sand on it, then wipe off the sand, Next, mix sand and grease, and grease it up with the mix, then wipe it off.... See which is better

I think of it as "Barrier Method of Protection"

[catkiller45]

Tried a few today and put a wax paper disc. over the powder
and then the cookie,etc

The cookie worked a lot better this way..Fouling was very soft
a dry patch could be pused through with ease....:roll:[smilie=1:

[Longwood]

The way I see it is the lube is back where it will not only help protect the bullet base but also be smeared onto the barrel instead of the lead base of an exposed bullet being spray welded onto the barrel by the hot gas and pressure..
It also acts like a seal between the bullet and the barrel.
Instead of riding along in the groove, and being spun off of the bullet where it will only lube flying insects, more lube is deposited. then stays where, it does some good.

[catkiller45]

One thing I forgot to add...The lube cookie also stoped the blow back I was getting with the bore sized patched bullets I have been using..So I guess that a plus as well...

[RMulhern]

Now to the crux of why I started this post! From time to time I've read here and on other similar related forums that some dude has made a post declaring "I'm shooting paper patch without a lube cookie and since I'm wiping after each shot I don't need a lube cookie!" Under this scenario it would be logical to thereby assume that the thought process of the shooter would be that the only function of a lube cookie would be for the deposition of lube onto the walls of the bore for maintenance of soft fouling! IMO I think that is a false impression! Over the past few years I have shot thousands of PP bullets! Not possibly as many as others whom visit this forum who have been doing this much longer than I have but without a doubt I have fired enough downrange to make somewhat of a broad statement as to the functionality of what a lube cookie will do. Since I have never seen a high speed X-Ray photo of the interior of a BPCR bore at ignition, nor has anyone else seen this I would gather, based upon what could be logically surmised....it is my belief that the lube cookie does more than just deposit a layer of grease onto the walls of the bore; rather...since the gases expand radially within a rifle's chamber it would be logical to surmise that the lube cookie also helps to prevent the hot gas from blowing by the over powder wad helping to prevent the problem of leading! I can also state that in my case...I have always gotten better accuracy when using a rather thick lube cookie than when I didn't use one! YMMV!!:smile::D

[Gunlaker]

Rick, I agree. I'm pretty darn sure that they help a lot with gas cutting. Particularly if you are shooting out of a chamber cut for grease groove bullets. I've only got a couple of years of playing with these things, but I can say that in all of my rifles with GG chambers I get serious gas cutting with a single wad and pretty good accuracy with a lube cookie. In my .45-70 with DanT's chamber I can shoot single wads or lube cookies.

Chris.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

If your having gas cutting then your wads are not doing their Job. I have recovered many of my PP bullets shot at 1000 and out to 1 mile no fining of the bullet or signs of Gas cutting, no leading either.
Then again I use more then one wad, and have always done so.

In my hunting loads I use a rather thick grease cookie and it does put a considerable amout of lube in the barrel after a couple of shots you can not see the rifling, yet no issues just thick lube from front to back, this in my Shiloh 45-110 business Rifle. This has been tested in temps from the 80's to -6 deg. And has killed buffalo-deer.

I think grease cookies have their place thats a given, I see no need for them in a target rifle match, thats my opinion, nothing more.

There is a current world record Paper Patch group fired at 200 yards in a match setting, it is 1.336 inches, anyone is welcome to come to Raton and fire a smaller group with Grease cookie loads and prove my opinion wrong.

consistant loading methods, Top quality casting of bullets and the abilty to hold the rifle, and Judge wind conditions, will in all cases outweigh the the rest and win.

Period.

Develop a good load, test it, from 200 to 1000 yards, then learn what conditions do to it.

ie: x amount of windage for 8 mph wind at 11, 10, or 9, 7, then 11, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Learn all that,

Well hell you will win most of the time.

KW
The Lunger
Founder-President H'Rass
Historical Rifle Accuracy Seeking Shooters

[Longwood]

I saw a mention of a substance used back when that is for hives but is sort of a starter for them if I understood it correctly.
Supposedly one of the Shooting Pro's" of old, recommended or used it.
Do any of you know more about it and know of a source?

[Lead pot]

I have looked to many bullets over the years looking at the effects of what different wads do and dont do and I been smeared by some some called bullet guru's about my findings so I pretty much quit telling about my findings. It's best for you to see for your self what goes on with this stuff.
But I will say one thing when shooting a PP bullet.
A lube wad definitely helps seal the bore and prevents gas cuts.
Shooting a PP bullet with out the lube wad especially using bullets with 1/16 T/L or 1/20 with a small percentage of antimony in the alloy and using no lube wad with a bullet patched under bore diameter the gas will get past the base of the bullet and at times cut just the patch but more then not will cut the bullet. Some cuts are very small like a mouse was nibbling at the very base to a full length wash out.
When the bullet is hard like 1/16 or even 1/18 especially # 2 Lyman and patched to under bore diameter, the bullet will not get the expansion to help seal the bore. I find that a bullet has more nose setback then the base gets pushed forward and if a wad that is hard and smaller then what the throat diameter is will let the gas get past the hard fiber or card wad with out the lube wad helping to seal the bore.
Using a soft cork wad under a pp bullet I never found a PP bullet with any sign of gas cuts.
Using a lube wad does two things for me, especially shot in a bottle neck case like the .44-2 5/8 (.44-90 bn) keeps the ES and SD down and prevents case stretch or separation.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,

I would expect your findings where you got gas cutting with thin or no wad at all, I also expect why I have found about a dozen bullets that skided it at 1000 yards and almost as many at 1 mile with no gas cutting is the fact I use that mulit-wad stack of mine. Which does have a .091 Cork wad in that stack.

I also think the closer to bore your bullet is and using thin paper which, in theory, would require less bump up would be all good things to help prevent Gas cutting on bullets.

Kenny W

[Lead pot]

Kenny.

I used several different thickness of wads. cards cut from OJ and milk cartons, serial boxes and 1/16" fiber gaskets and with no lube between them using flat base bullets patched at bore or .001 under using hard 1/16 some had gas cuts, not all , some.
The cup and dish based bullets had none even with just a .023" thick wad between the bullet and powder..
I shot a bunch of the BACO .444 diameter money bullets and .432" money bullets using alloy from 1/20 T/L to 1/16 T/L and some #2 Lyman to see how the noses stand and shot then with different wad stacks and the hard 1/16 and the #2 with just a 1/16" fiber some had cuts...not all but some.
None of the .446 cup based swaged @ 1/16 bullets had cuts just the hard flat based bullets patched at bore or .001 under had burned patches and gas cuts.
I did this just to see how the nose stood on my new MB moulds and not to check for gas cuts.
I can post a few photo's if you want to see them.

[catkiller45]

Lead Pot---I would like to see the picture so I know what to look for as far as gas cutting?

Are you getting this with groove diameter bullets as well or just with the bore diameter slugs?

[Lead pot]

Gas cuts http://flic.kr/p/bFXXTB

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Thanks Kurt,

Wow of the many bullets I have recovered have never ever had any that looked like that of Paper Patched bullets, But due to the compressed loads of Goex, I have always used a .060 veg wad then a .060 poly wad. later I went too the Cork Wad also to get the bullet out of the case a tad bit further?

Did you ever use .063 Poly for a wad? It does not work well for compression as it would bulge the case but I seated them with a dowel after compressing the Goex with a veg wad. But It sure does a great job of Sealing. I use the Poly wad still in my 38-50 GG loads.

This past year I quit the poly wads which were LDP for many years then 2 years ago I switched to HDP. hard to punch very tough stuff.

Kenny
The Rubber Cellulose is .047 thick instead of the .063 Poly. I still put the .091 cork wad on top.

[Lead pot]

Kenny

Yes I have used them but usually just under the bullet to help keeping the card from getting pushed into the cup.
Some of those bullet has a 1/8" lube wad but they were .0015 under bore with a fiber over and under the lube wad but the alloy was 1/16 and #2 Lyman.
I have recovered more GG with gas cuts but always using a hard alloy.
I have found nothing that works better then a cork. I use a .080 in the bottle neck because of the shortage of room keeping the wad stack in the neck and still have room to seat the bullet.
In the straight wall cases I use a .123" cork.

[Gunlaker]

I'm currently using .060" LDPE wads in my .45-70 and they do seem to work well. I'm going to try them in the .45-110 over a 0.060 veg wad and see how they do compared to the lube cookie I've been using. I almost had the opportunity today, but had to head into work at the last minute instead.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

Lead Pot---I would like to see the picture so I know what to look for as far as gas cutting?

Are you getting this with groove diameter bullets as well or just with the bore diameter slugs?
Nobody answered you, yesterday, so I will speak up.

I don't think Lead Pot has any pictures of bullets patched to groove diameter.
Mine come out looking like this one. I have other pictures, but they all show the same results.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/MoneyPatchedToGroove.jpg

This bullet was thumb seated .650" deep in an unsized case, to sit on a .030" veggie over-powder wad.
Nothing else there but powder.

CM

[Longwood]

Charlie
Do you sill only use a veggie wad or do you use a stack of different materials?

[montana_charlie]

Charlie
Do you sill only use a veggie wad or do you use a stack of different materials?
Still the one wad, although I occasionally play with other things on top of that veggie.

I recently shot some loads with .125" grease cookies, hoping to be able to 'shoot dirty' ... still couldn't chamber three shots in a row (even with blow tubing), and accuracy went to pot when I tried wiping that 'greasy' bore.

Tried a 1/8th inch felt wad (both dry, and soaked with lube) and accuracy stayed 'reasonable'. But there were no 'improvements' to make me continue with the extra work.

I haven't totally abandoned the grease cookie idea, but I will have to change something ...

CM

[catkiller45]

thanks for the reply Charlie....am just guess,but would he be getting that gas cutting thing if he was to use a softer alloy? I have found that staying with the lube cookie.as stopped any blow by or blow back I was getting befor..I have a lot to lear about this...It is very interesting to me..And I think I am going to keep getting my bullets from BACO...at least until I decide which bullet I want to stay with.....:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

thanks for the reply Charlie....am just guess,but would he be getting that gas cutting thing if he was to use a softer alloy
He has dealt with the gas cutting, and I have not. It's best if I let him answer the question.

CM

[Lead pot]

I have done a very long study (many winters) on bullet alloys and wad combinations what they do with bullets shooting black powder and smokeless, not just 10 or 20 bullets but enough to fill a three gallon bucket and a couple coffee cans before I melted them all down.
The only time that I have recovered soft, I call soft 1/20 T/L that was patched .002 under bore diameter and that was using just one card wad.
I have never recovered a groove diameter breach seated bullet with 1/20 alloy with just a .023 card wad flush seated at the case mouth. Or a or deep seated in the case.
I wont go any farther on this subject because of the BS I got relaying my findings.

LP

[Longwood]

I live where it gets hot and don't go out when it is cold.
I have every lube ingredient mentioned on this site and need a recipe for lube cookies that will work well in hot areas.
I store, bullet down, so,,,

[Longwood]

I made up five different formulas and they all seemed to shoot OK but the best one, accuracy wise, was a formula with graphite and a synthetic, 100-1, two stroke oil that a friend formulated a few years back.
I only changed the cookie in the different tests, everything else remained the same.
That one is a little soft but I tried testing melting point temps and it looks like it will work very well indeed. I shall make some that is a little stifferand I have a feeling the graphite is unessesary. It did little, or none, improvements in some of the mixes.
It was only a little under 80 today so time and temperature will tell.
I hate shooting at paper, but the formulating and then testing is more fun than I thought it would be.

[catkiller45]

Even thought the lube cookie works,
I stopped using them and went with
.45 cal dry felt wads soaked in crisco.
I have no clue as to why,but they seem
to put more lube in the barrel than the
3/16 inch lube cookie did..And this also
stopped the blow back I was getting as
well....[smilie=2:

[PanaDP]

Even thought the lube cookie works,
I stopped using them and went with
.45 cal dry felt wads soaked in crisco.
I have no clue as to why,but they seem
to put more lube in the barrel than the
3/16 inch lube cookie did..And this also
stopped the blow back I was getting as
well....[smilie=2:

That's interesting and unexpected. Were you using any kind of card or wad between the grease cookie and the powder that may have been scraping lube back off immediately?

[catkiller45]

That's interesting and unexpected. Were you using any kind of card or wad between the grease cookie and the powder that may have been scraping lube back off immediately?

I was using freezer wrap paper...so I doubt that was scraping out the lube...But the felt wads really do a lot better job...:holysheep

[PanaDP]

Thanks Kurt,

Wow of the many bullets I have recovered have never ever had any that looked like that of Paper Patched bullets, But due to the compressed loads of Goex, I have always used a .060 veg wad then a .060 poly wad. later I went too the Cork Wad also to get the bullet out of the case a tad bit further?

Did you ever use .063 Poly for a wad? It does not work well for compression as it would bulge the case but I seated them with a dowel after compressing the Goex with a veg wad. But It sure does a great job of Sealing. I use the Poly wad still in my 38-50 GG loads.

This past year I quit the poly wads which were LDP for many years then 2 years ago I switched to HDP. hard to punch very tough stuff.

Kenny
The Rubber Cellulose is .047 thick instead of the .063 Poly. I still put the .091 cork wad on top.

Kenny, I forget exactly what you have in your 45-2-7/8" load for wads but I remember it being quite a generous stack. In all your testing, did you ever try lubed or dry felt wads like the .461 gibbs used? That cartridge, with it's large stack of felt wads, is said to have performed very well in the "no wiping" British match rules.

[PanaDP]

But the felt wads really do a lot better job...:holysheep

What thickness are you going with right now? I'd like to give the felt a try and I was going to get hold of a cut of 1/8" and 1/4" high density felt.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Never Tried Felt wads have them just never got around too, It. So far since we wipe for Long Range figured no reason to as of yet.

Kenny
W.

Sorry Slow to get back just spent last 3 days in Hospt with Pneumonia.

[PanaDP]

Sorry to hear about the hospital stay. Pneumonia is nasty enough without hospital food to contend with.

I ask about the felt wads because I'm interested in testing them for hunting loads. The British shooters had such good experience with them that I think there might be something there for a no-wipe no-blowtube hunting load. If nothing else, I ought to learn something out of it.

[Don McDowell]

You need to be shooting a bullet pretty well under bore diameter to do the noblow or wipe thing.
I use the lubed felt wads in both target and hunting loads. The target loads because the lubed felt helps keep the fouling soft and soft fouling wipes out of the bore easier, and for the hunting loads it keeps the fouling soft for a quick reload.

[PanaDP]

Don, have you noticed any advantage in one thickness over another with the felt wads? What about lube, is it the standard type of lube or can you use something softer since it's in a way contained?

[Don McDowell]

I've only ever used the 1/8 prelubed ones, from BACO.
I did just get some 1/8 wonder wads in 44 caliber, that seem to be working pretty fair in the 44-77, and some others that are about .125 thick, but have not shot the thin ones yet.

[PanaDP]

I was actually thinking of trying thicker wads. I want to give .125" and .25" a try and see what happens.

[catkiller45]

What thickness are you going with right now? I'd like to give the felt a try and I was going to get hold of a cut of 1/8" and 1/4" high density felt.


Just seen your post...The felt wads I am using are are around 3/16 inch....I just melted some crisco in a pan and dropped the felts in and stired them around..Hope this helps..:bigsmyl2: