Adendum to "filler" sticky

[Larry Gibson]

Recently I have had several conversations with users of a dacron filler with inappropriate powder or load with a bullet/cartridge. This specifically is with the slow "fast" burners like 2400, 4227, 4759, 4198 and 5744. Many mistakenly beleive I recommend the dacron filler with everything......I do not. Thus I have added a new explanation to the "filler" sticky. This is that addition and it should be self explanitory;

I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder....I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it "right". Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is "cheap" or because "they have a lot of it". There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually "no data" available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask here or PM me.

Larry Gibson

[caseyboy]

Hi Larry,

In the above statement, are you recommending to not use a filler with 2400, 4227, 4198, 4759 and 5744? Maybe I am not reading the statement correctly.

Mike

[Larry Gibson]

caseboy

I recommend those powders with the dacron filler for use with the light end of medium weight bullets for a caliber/cartridge; i.e. .30/.31 cals with 140 - 165 gr cast bullets in the 1600 - 1850 fps range. For lessor velocities with those bullets or with ligher weight cast bullets I recommend a "fast" burning powder that ignites easily with no filler or wad like Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, etc. For cast bullets of higher medium weight to heavy weight for caliber/cartridge; i.e. .30/.31 cals with 170 - 220 gr cast bullets in the 1500 - 1800 fps range with those powders I do not recommend a filler or wad.

The examples given are for .30/.31 cals but the same applies to other calibers with thier respective weights of cast bullets. BTW, I really prefer a medium burning powder for the heavy medium to heavy weight cast bullets such as 4895 for velocities in the 1750 - 1950 fps range. With most cartridges using such as 4895 with have a loading density less than 80% and I suggest a dacron filler be used.

Larry Gibson

[caseyboy]

Thanks Larry,

I have been using Dacron with 4227 in the 7mm-08 and with 4227 and 4198 in the 303B and getting very consistent results. I did pick up a Lyman 287641 mould for the 7mm-08 and will cast up a couple hundred tonight. Want to develop a good CB load for Silhouette to 300m. The Lee 130s would not consistently take the Rams.

Mike

[looseprojectile]

when someone posts about wanting to use H110 for reduced loads in rifles.
Just recently a poster said he wanted reduced cast loads and had H110.
W296 And H110 is best used for full loads in magnum pistol cartridges. 30 Carbine is a magnum pistol cartridge.
With or without filler I don't think H110 would be good or safe in reduced rifle loads. Just a heads up to anyone thinking that W296 and H110 is a reducible pistol powder.
I always trust Larrys advice and have never found anything he has said to be in error.


Life is good

[leftiye]

One of the key issues with reduced loads whether it be pistol powder in a rifle or just light rifle powder loads in a rifle is EASE of ignition. If that wide-red eyed crazy load of yours wants to use H110, 296, AA#9, 4350, or any slow powder that may not light easily enough, you may be committing suicide! Nuff said!

Polyester filling may help it to light, but that probly won't do (enough) the trick.

[NoSquibs]

I just started loading for a k98 8mm mauser. I'm using a NOE Fat 323471 and having to seat very deep. The first lube groove is exposed in the case. I've only shot about 10 rounds so far with some H4895 and it's looking pretty good so far. I've been thinking a filler would be helpful to keep the powder off the lube.

Having never used a filler my main worry is about the seating depth and something going terribly wrong!:veryconfu

[btroj]

The purpose of a filler is not to keep the powder off the lube. I don't think the lube is going to contaminate your powder. Unless you use a very runny lube in hot weather and leave the ammo laying around in the sun.

A filler should be consider more of a powder positioning device than anything else. It is there to keep the powder firmly next to the primer and prevent powder position from varying shot to shot. That variation, with some powders, give variations in velocity and accuracy issues.

[Larry Gibson]

I just started loading for a k98 8mm mauser. I'm using a NOE Fat 323471 and having to seat very deep. The first lube groove is exposed in the case. I've only shot about 10 rounds so far with some H4895 and it's looking pretty good so far. I've been thinking a filler would be helpful to keep the powder off the lube.

Having never used a filler my main worry is about the seating depth and something going terribly wrong!:veryconfu

The filler will keep the powder off the exposed lube. However, as mentioned by btroj, that is not the main reason for use of the filler. It is only a side benifit. As also mentioned a lot depends on the lube and how long before the round is fired after loading along with the temperature, etc. With the dacron filler you will need less powder to duplicate the velocity accuracy you are now getting. Suggest you read my post in the "sticky" if you haven't. It's a lot easier to use the filler and to put it into the case than many pundits make it out to be. Any questions just ak and I, along with others, will be glad to help. All of my loads with 4895 in the 8x57 with cast bullets (323470, 323471 and the C325-190-RN GB bullet) use a dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

[caseyboy]

Putting the dacron into the case with a pair of tweezers is the easiest way I have found. Put a piece between the tweezer tines, and shove it in in once push.

[Larry Gibson]

With cases of .22 - .375 O just hold the dacron chunk over the case mouth ( charged cases are siting in a loading bloack) and push it down into the case with a section .22 cal cleaning rod. It's easy to just poke it all in without tamping it down into a wad. I just poke it in so all is just inside the case. It's not rocket science and will only be as difficult as one makes it.

Larry Gibson

[NoSquibs]

Just got done loading 10 rounds! 212gr NOE Fat 323471 over 29gr of H4895 and 1gr of Poly-Fil. I'm gonna try to shoot them tomorrow.

[btroj]

I do it exactly like Larry described, when I use a filler.

I am still undecided about fillers in some loads.

[tomon]

I have lost my last brain cell! I have been searching for the Filler sticky for an hour. I find referrals back to it, but can't get there from here! Help!:veryconfu

[JBinMN]

I have lost my last brain cell! I have been searching for the Filler sticky for an hour. I find referrals back to it, but can't get there from here! Help!:veryconfu

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

2nd post is where Mr. Gibson begins his posts on the subject... There is good info to follow by others as well...

[tomon]

Thank you!

[JBinMN]

:drinks: No sweat.
;)

[Oily]

Larry GOD bless you and your knowledge that you impart to this site. I click on every post I see of yours to see if I can learn something. I read a lot and post seldom because I get most of my answers on this site because of dedicated boolitmen like you! OILY

[upnorthwis]

Larry. Tell me if I'm doing the right thing with a 71/84 Mauser in .43 Mauser. Started at 27 gr. 5744 but had an indication of too high of pressure with the primers being flatter than I like for a rifle that was originally for black powder. But when I backed off to 24 gr. I would get hangfires. With the addition of a 5/8" Dacron filler pushed all the way against the powder, I haven't had a hangfire again. Velocity is only 1115 fps while a factory black powder round was 1620 fps. Also, I shot the 24 gr. + Dacron load in a match where it was 95 degrees and primers were once again flatter than I like. Would a different powder be more appropriate?

[Larry Gibson]

upnorthwis

Been a while since I worked with the 43 Mauser in a M71 and that was before the advent of 5744. However, I've burned enough 5744 in such cases to know that with or w/o a Dacron filler many times by the time it generates enough psi to burn efficiently it is too much psi for the firearm or the velocity is too fast for the bullet.

You don't mention the cast bullet weight so I'll assume it's the standard 340 Lyman or 370 gr RCBS gr for the 43 Mauser or something similar(?). With either of those I suggest more of a medium burning powder such as RL 7, IMR 3031 or one of the 4895s with a 1 1/2 gr - 2 gr +/- Dacron filler. I'd start at 22 gr with the RL 7 or 25 gr with either the 3031 or the 4895 and work up to 1350 to 1430 fps if you're using the 370 gr bullet. Up to 1450 fps with the 340 gr bullet.

I'm not sure where you got the 1620 fps for the BP load but the military BP load with 370 gr PP bullet is listed at 1430 fps. It does have a 1680 ME though? The old commercial loads I'm familiar with list a 386 gr bullet at 1425 fps and the old CIL 385 gr bullet load at 1360 fps. Are you using some commercial load with a much lighter bullet than 340 gr or that is loaded with Pyrodex or Triple 7? Lyman lists loads with those pushing 1536 fps and 1623 fps with the 340 gr RCBS cast.

[upnorthwis]

Was using the Lyman 340 gr. That info got lost when I reworded a sentence. The 1620 fps load was a factory Kynoch that a friend gave me. He had bought over a 100 cartridges at a gun show as .43 Mauser, but most were 11 Belgian Mannlicher and many of the rest would not fire. When fired over the Oehler 35P I knew it was a thumper by the recoil but was still surprised at the velocity. Will give 4895 a try. Note: My 5744 load owns a CBA Military Big Bore record and some day they'll update the website to show it. Thank you.