some tips that may help.

[runfiverun]

throw in your observations,on things you see make a change in load development.
or what you change if you see something, or just stuff you do when working a new load.

when testing new loads.
i have noticed a couple of things.

1. it takes 7-11 shots for a lube star to appear on a clean bbl depending on your lubes viscosity,and the bbl length.

2. i have seen just changing a powder and nothing else [velocity,boolit,primer] take 5-7 shots before the new powder residue coats the bbl and the load settles down.
observed this one today.
i was shooting a couple of new loads, changed and fired a 6 shot group that was about 2" at 50 yds.
told littlegirl "that load don't shoot well" she sat down and fired a 6 shot group under 1/2 of an inch.
the other 8 i fired just made her group rip the paper some more.

3. i have seen new scopes and rings put on a rifle take as many as 20 shots to calm down and take a set in place.
same thing after pulling the action from the stock.

4. first shot flyers [the boolit not in with the rest of the shots] can usually be attributed to a hard lube, but lube purging is usually attributed to soft lube building up in a bbl.
viscosity matters more than actual lube makeup.


theres more, let's see what y'all have.

on the 5th page I start adding in links to helpful threads that didn't get made into sticky's.
keep the good stuff coming.

[geargnasher]

Good topic, this could get interesting.

Barrel condition is critical to accuracy. Changing powders, lubes, cleaning it, getting it hot, etc. change things, sometimes greatly depending on how much fouling your barrel "normally" accumulates. This is why I strive to develop loads that preclude the need to clean the bore, it takes 5-10 shots to get it back to normal when I do.

I have a decent understanding of lube function and have "known good" lube recipes for some broad categories of shooting, so I usually consider lube a constant, one of the last things I tweak if it's letting go of the boolit properly and not giving obvious purge flyers. One thing about lube that DOES matter a great deal (aside from slickness and viscosity) is the amount. I usually get the best accuracy from rifles with a minimum number of grooves lubed, sometimes only one or two and the rest empty.

I do "lube jettison" tests on all my rifle loads to see if I need to tweak the lube for the temperature range or velocity of the load. This involves shooting through clean cardboard at ten feet and scraping off the lube splatter to compare with the amount the boolit had on it when it was loaded. If it doesn't all go, the lube gets softened. There is a difference between softening it and adding lubricity, a point often missed. This is where paraffin and petroleum jelly comes in handy rather than adding more lubricating oil. If I get purge flyers every few rounds and an excessive lube star on the muzzle, often the cardboard will have a liquid spatter on it and less lube than the boolit carried. This is a sign to add more soap or carnauba wax, or better yet use a different, harder (more viscous) formula with less lubricity.

Things I change in an attempt to improve accuracy: Neck tension, boolit hardness/toughness/composition, final sized diameter, chamber neck clearance, crimp (style and amount, if any), primer brand, and of course powder type and charge weight.

Fillers are a thing unto themselves. Simply altering the amount of compression slightly with a compacting filler can make worlds of difference when fine-tuning a load. Dacron is more forgiving, amounts can vary by 1/4 grain or more and not affect anything adversely.

If I'm working up a load and not getting the expected accuracy, I check lube jettison and chronograph a string to check for extreme velocity variations first, then do a sort of "ladder test" with the powder charge to see if there's a sweet spot, and then I move on to changing powder type or playing with the nuances of alloy, case work, boolit fit, etc. I'm interested to see what others have to day as well, might upgrade my process a bit.

Gear

[Bret4207]

What? You guys mean there isn't a magic formula that will give me 900 bazillion Bhn lead that will erase all signs of leading and give me .25" groups at 4900fps????!!!!

Who knew?!

[Mk42gunner]

3. i have seen new scopes and rings put on a rifle take as many as 20 shots to calm down and take a set in place.
same thing after pulling the action from the stock.

My first .35 Whelen that I built took about 45 shots before it settled down and really started grouping well. I was really regreting putting an Adams and Bennett barrel on it until it suddenly started putting three rounds under an inch.

I also assembled a 10-22 into a silhouette rifle that took a lot more shooting than I thought it should have. Once everything worked into place, or the barrel broke in groups went from two inches at twentyfive yards to hiding undera dime.

Those were the only two that really gave me problems, most of the other rifles I have rebarreled have done good to great from the first round.

Robert

[btroj]

And temperature makes a huge difference in needed lube hardness. The warmer it is, the harder you can generally go. I have lubes that work great at temps above 50 degrees but are a bit touchy below that. Other lubes work very well at low temps but may be a bit soft and runny at 90 plus degrees. YOU need to decide if this is an issue for your needs. First shot, cold barrel flyers are a problem for me for hunting. They are not a big deal for shooting at the range for fun.

[44man]

Gear has a handle on lube. I try for one that always does best in my revolvers. I have found if my lube is not working for conditions, all the rest I tested also went south. It has done the same for me as primers where one primer changes powder burn with weather, the rest also got worse. I can't talk rifles as I have no more to shoot cast in.
But I do not buy into cold barrel shot throwing that much, I will fix the gun. But clean barrels do throw shots yet in all the years of IHMSA shooting and hunting it just came down to needing one shot. I was in trouble if I went to a shoot with a clean bore. You can miss a deer with a clean bore.
Lube rings at the muzzle are not needed unless you shoot BP. You then need fouling softening that is not as important with smokeless. You do not need a ton of grease in the bore.
The important thing about lube is having a consistent friction with every shot. I would hate to shoot a dozen shots and heat the barrel before shooting the deer.
Lube purge at the muzzle should be there after one shot, not a dozen. All lube should leave a boolit at the same time. Or it should ALL stay in the grooves so if you need to shoot a lot looking for a grease ring, put a zerk fitting in the barrel and use a grease gun! :holysheep
Some lubes Diesel from pressure or ignite from a low flash point in the bore. If you get smoke from smokeless, lube is burning.
Never thought you might be shooting a diesel engine, did you?

[largom]

My first .35 Whelen that I built took about 45 shots before it settled down and really started grouping well. I was really regreting putting an Adams and Bennett barrel on it until it suddenly started putting three rounds under an inch.

I also assembled a 10-22 into a silhouette rifle that took a lot more shooting than I thought it should have. Once everything worked into place, or the barrel broke in groups went from two inches at twentyfive yards to hiding undera dime.

Those were the only two that really gave me problems, most of the other rifles I have rebarreled have done good to great from the first round.

Robert


When I install a barreled action into the stock I use a torque wrench to tighten all screws, same when I install a scope. I read an article about breaking in a new scope that stated one should turn the turret adjusting knobs to the extreme in each direction at least 50 times then return to center. This is supposed to seat-in the threads. Have'nt tried it but it does make sence. When I make a scope adjustment at the range I usually tap the turret lightly with a non-marring object.

Larry

[Larry Gibson]

What? You guys mean there isn't a magic formula that will give me 900 bazillion Bhn lead that will erase all signs of leading and give me .25" groups at 4900fps????!!!!

Who knew?!

Now what do I do with all that wrinkled rice paper I've been trying to walk on..........[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

BTW; +!+ on gear's lube assesment. I use a good lube that is a proven performer to begin with and it's then one of the last things that is suspect, if suspect at all, to accuracy problems. But then what can I say, I don't shoot sub moa groups at 300 yards with a factory Browning rifle, with or without a BOSS, ..........

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

44man, I have had much cold barrel flyer problems in a couple rifles. The worst is my Marlin 32-20 in sub 40 degree weather with Carnuba Red lube. Takes 4 or 5 shots to warm the barrel enough to get a decent group. I have a feeling that adding a bitof Vaseline to soften it up would make a difference.

I also think itis very important to always look at the needs of the load when determine the required characteristics. If I am hunting where the max range on deer is 50 yards why do I care if the load only shoots 3 inch groups at 100 yards. This also means I will tolerate some leading for a higher velocity hunting load as long as I can get 5 or 10 accurate shots between cleanings. That would or be acceptable in a load developed for heavy rane or plinking use.

[largom]

Now what do I do with all that wrinkled rice paper I've been trying to walk on..........[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

BTW; +!+ on gear's lube assesment. I use a good lube that is a proven performer to begin with and it's then one of the last things that is suspect, if suspect at all, to accuracy problems. But then what can I say, I don't shoot sub moa groups at 300 yards with a factory Browning rifle, with or without a BOSS, ..........

Larry Gibson


Larry, Like me, I guess you just need more practice! Like you, my lube is the last thing I would suspect. I might change the number of lube grooves filled but I have never changed lube since I started using FWFL.

One of the first things I might adjust is seating depth. Another thing is can or should I add a filler. I have seen a small piece of Dacron filler greatly improve accuracy.

If I change powder I always start testing with a clean bore.

Larry Miller

[44man]

44man, I have had much cold barrel flyer problems in a couple rifles. The worst is my Marlin 32-20 in sub 40 degree weather with Carnuba Red lube. Takes 4 or 5 shots to warm the barrel enough to get a decent group. I have a feeling that adding a bitof Vaseline to soften it up would make a difference.

I also think itis very important to always look at the needs of the load when determine the required characteristics. If I am hunting where the max range on deer is 50 yards why do I care if the load only shoots 3 inch groups at 100 yards. This also means I will tolerate some leading for a higher velocity hunting load as long as I can get 5 or 10 accurate shots between cleanings. That would or be acceptable in a load developed for heavy rane or plinking use.
I see where you are---40* below---WOW. CR is too hard.
I remember using a tube of wonder lube or something when muzzle loader hunting in cold weather. I needed to run over the tube with a truck to get any out. I went to Young Country lube.
Felix gets stiff too but other lubes need a sledge to use.
A lube should not melt and run in hot weather but should not get hard and brittle in the cold. Pretty hard to find.
-40* is where you should be next to a big fire with a bag of jerky! [smilie=l:

[birdadly]

I should have gotten into this hobby before age 36... I don't know if I'll have the years to learn all of this stuff you guys know!! I get into a thread like this and I'm just overwhelmed. You guys are so bright, detailed and curious! I love it. It also makes we worry, but I'll keep taking baby-steps to get there!! -Brad

[geargnasher]

....Lube rings at the muzzle are not needed unless you shoot BP. You then need fouling softening that is not as important with smokeless. You do not need a ton of grease in the bore. My experience has proven the same thing. Lube, really, isn't so much of a lube as a sealer, like oil on piston rings. Really greasy, slick lubes throw boolits everywhere. Lube "stars" are actually something I try to avoid. If I'm getting one it means the lube is too slick, too soft, and is being liquified in the grooves on the way down the barrel, or blown past the boolit due to gas leaks. I want the lube to come off, but not in a liquid spray.
The important thing about lube is having a consistent friction with every shot. If you could put everything about lube in a nutshell, that would be it! I would hate to shoot a dozen shots and heat the barrel before shooting the deer.
Lube purge at the muzzle should be there after one shot, not a dozen. This is the secret to having a lube that doen't throw the first shot, assuming the bore is conditioned.All lube should leave a boolit at the same time. Or it should ALL stay in the grooves Yep. What did Runfiverun say? "It either all needs to stay or go'. so if you need to shoot a lot looking for a grease ring, put a zerk fitting in the barrel and use a grease gun! :holysheep
Some lubes Diesel from pressure or ignite from a low flash point in the bore. If you get smoke from smokeless, lube is burning. I've suspected this for a long time, but never heard it mentioned before. I never did figure out what the self-ignition pressure of pure, macro-parrafin (candle wax) is, but I suspect that a .30-'06 or .44 Magnum develop about 10-15 times the pressure needed to ignite diesel fuel.
Never thought you might be shooting a diesel engine, did you?


I see where you are---40* below---WOW. CR is too hard.
I remember using a tube of wonder lube or something when muzzle loader hunting in cold weather. I needed to run over the tube with a truck to get any out. I went to Young Country lube.
Felix gets stiff too but other lubes need a sledge to use.
A lube should not melt and run in hot weather but should not get hard and brittle in the cold. Pretty hard to find.
-40* is where you should be next to a big fire with a bag of jerky! ...And a flask of good brandy! [smilie=l:


I should have gotten into this hobby before age 36... I don't know if I'll have the years to learn all of this stuff you guys know!! I get into a thread like this and I'm just overwhelmed. You guys are so bright, detailed and curious! I love it. It also makes we worry, but I'll keep taking baby-steps to get there!! -Brad

Birdadly, threads like these can take your learning curve to lightspeed. 44Man has been shooting cast boolits for way longer than either of us has been alive, and he's learned a thing or two in that time the hard way. One sentence of facts might take a person 20 years to discover on their own, but a little reading and educated experimenting can put you way ahead. I've learned more in three years on this forum than I did the entire 16 years of casting and shooting I did before discovering it.

Gear

[btroj]

I have learned more about shooting cast in the past 10 years than I did in the previous 20.
What happened is that I began to question all the conventional wisdom. I o longer believed that any old lube was good enough. I leaned that harder isn't always better. I learned that a " proper" size for bullets didn't really exist, the gun wanted what it wanted. I learned that there are makers of moulds beyond Lyman, Lee, and RCBS. I learned to try, test, and learn.

I discovered this site and my eyes were opened. I learned to not beleive all I saw in print. I learned to see what works for me, there is no one right answer.

My best piece of advice for the new guy is this- go shoot! You learn more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench that anywhere else. Once you have put a few hundred pounds of lead down range you will have a much better idea of what does and doesn't work. You will know what your guns do and don't like.m leading and poor accuracy are not failures, they are learning tools. They teach you what not to do which can be as important as knowing what to do.

[btroj]

Hey 44 man- I meant below 40 degrees, not 40 below.

The 32-20 is an extreme case. Small diameter, light bullet. I think the lube is just stiff enough to cause problems. This isn't an issue in my 45-70. Again, it is key to know that not all guns behave the same in all conditions.

I will say that Felix lube has never been an issue for me at any temp. My only issue with it is that it does gunk up my guns more than other lubes. Not fouling, just a general blow of lube all over that gets messy. I may go back to it anyway, it does work quite well.

[Chicken Thief]

@Gear

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/Gear.jpg

In essence we all shoot 1 cylinder, single stroke engines with floating pistonshttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/giggle.gif

[runfiverun]

carnuba red is a fine summertime lube, it is not a cold weather lube i don't think it's good under @50*.

dieseling was first observed when they used to dip jaxketed bullets in oil for some target shooting in the 0'3s.
hatcher [it think] was the first to observe it at frankford arsenal.
i think you have to push the lube in front of the boolit to cause dieseling, otherwise it's from gas cutting.

weight sorting the small boolits is critical no matter how good the casting is.
from a test i done recently.
i cast them from 4/6/90 alloy, and visualed 22 boolits,sized and checked them.
then shortened the nose and reshaped the boolits in my swaging dies, then resized/lubed them again.
which makes a pretty soft boolit with a flat nose for hunting.
pushing them in the 223-22/250/and the swift with 22.5 grs of 4895 around 2700 fps.
i weight sorted 10,didn't for 10 for two different sets 20 each.
and 10 weight sorted, 10 unsorted, same known load of unswaged boolits.

the unweighed boolits threw flyers from every group,even with the swaging that shoulda squished out most all the air voids.
the swaging also work softens the alloy,which still shoots under 1/2" for 5 shots [at 100 yds] in the 2700fps range proving the fit over hardness rule.

oddly the bigger around things get the less a little weight variation seems to matter.

[44man]

Hey 44 man- I meant below 40 degrees, not 40 below.

The 32-20 is an extreme case. Small diameter, light bullet. I think the lube is just stiff enough to cause problems. This isn't an issue in my 45-70. Again, it is key to know that not all guns behave the same in all conditions.

I will say that Felix lube has never been an issue for me at any temp. My only issue with it is that it does gunk up my guns more than other lubes. Not fouling, just a general blow of lube all over that gets messy. I may go back to it anyway, it does work quite well.
OK, sorry, I read it wrong. But 40* is not that bad. I have gone to -10* with Felix.
I get a lot on .44 brass but nothing on 45-70 brass, it is so clean it does not need tumbled. No explanation but 45-70 brass comes out very clean. My other calibers will have some lube on the brass.
Now you should see my dies, press handle and bench when I use Felix! :mrgreen: You can't see through the plastic boxes my Lee dies are in.
I don't like clean lead boolits with just lube in grooves.

[btroj]

My Marlin 45 Colt has a huge chamber, the loads with Felix lube were horribly dirty in the chamber. Luckily it was a soft fouling so the action ran fine and chambering was never an issue. It was just a mess to clean out when the time came.

I am beginning to learn more and more about how viscosity affects lube based upon temp. This is a new factor for me to pay attention to this year.

[geargnasher]

Brad, try only sizing the part of the case that holds the boolit.

Gear

[runfiverun]

viscosity affects accuracy no matter if it's winter or not.
the key i have found is to have the same lube viscosity year round.
i use atf in the winter,and leave it out in the summer. [simple right?]
it took me three years and about 50 lbs of 4895 to come up with that big revelation.

[geargnasher]

I have some unfounded faith that someday I will discover the components to make a boolit lube that will function from below freezing to 120 degrees and survive a summer day in a closed vehicle in Texas. Oh, and it will provide the same accuracy and consistency of the best lubes I use now. Beeswax ain't gonna do it, though.

Gear

[btroj]

I have pretty well come to the conclusion that it will be easier to find a place to live with a consistent year round temp than to find a lube that works well over a 60 to 100 degree range.
I just don't like the idea of needing 2 different lubes but I am about to the point of deciding it is just a fact of life.
I may just go with a summer formula as I shoot far less in the winter. Most of my hunting is at short ranges so a cold barrel flyer isn't likely to cause me much trouble.

gear and Run- since you guys have obviously had lube issues in the cold I need to ask a question. I have found that this issue is a bigger problem, accuracy wise in a cold barrel, with smaller diameter and lighter weight bullets. My 32-20 is far worse than my 45-70. I haven't really looked at handguns enough to be able to say. Any thought from you two?

[44man]

What is the stuff they use in engine oil to maintain viscosity?
Once, I had a Datsun that used oil like mad so I put 40 weight in it. Then it got cold one night and when I went to start the thing at work, it quit right now!
I found the aluminum gear on the camshaft to the distributor had sheared away.
If you shoot aluminum boolits and hard lube, they might break! :mrgreen:

[runfiverun]

james's oil analogy is about right.
we don't make multi visc lubes,i have tried to find a lube that maintained the same hardness in cold and hot.
they kinda felt about the same sitting in the cold and the warm but they weren't.
the lube just didn't have the flex or the ability to go liquid and make that seal when cold.
the lube in the bbl was stiff too.
357 max had the cold bbl first shot flyer when hunting and he worked out his micro wax specifically for that.
i don't think it would hold up over a 20 shot string at 80*'s though.
it seems when we try to fix one problem you lose at the other end.
a temp stable carrier/lube combo is the issue.
i sent ian a p.m. last night about this.
when target shooting i just burn one no big deal, but that isn't an option for hunting.
white lith is, so far, one of the better temp stable ingredients i have found, and so is atf in our temp range.
the carrier is the issue right now for me,maybe a silicone would work [i dunno haven't researched it]
i do know silicones were tried by harris in the 50's but he wasn't satisfied [or didn't try them fully] as he suddenly shifted to his 50-50 mix and lauded it's praises like they were a sponsor of his race team.
i have fought with this for quite a while now and the best answer i still have is to soften my lube for the winter and hope it doesn't fail when it gets warm.

[geargnasher]

james's oil analogy is about right. I agree. There's a LOT of R&D and money tied up in additives that make oil thick when hot and thin when cool. When I was in automotive school this came up, and the prof gave a really good lecture on the chemistry behind what makes that happen, and why heat eventually breaks the stuff down in an engine and the viscosity/temp range changes. I've also seen charts showing different brands and advertised weights vs. actual independent lab tests, I can assure you that 5W-30 isn't 30 weight at 200 degrees, maybe 18 weight.
we don't make multi visc lubes,i have tried to find a lube that maintained the same hardness in cold and hot. Me too, that's a tough nut to crack.
they kinda felt about the same sitting in the cold and the warm but they weren't.
the lube just didn't have the flex or the ability to go liquid and make that seal when cold.
the lube in the bbl was stiff too. Just when you think you have it figured out, you go shooting and professor Gun says SORRY, please try again!
357 max had the cold bbl first shot flyer when hunting and he worked out his micro wax specifically for that.
i don't think it would hold up over a 20 shot string at 80*'s though. It will not, but it does what he designed it for beautifully. He lives near Canada, I live near Mexico, not much weather overlap between our two locations.
it seems when we try to fix one problem you lose at the other end. Always a trade-off.
a temp stable carrier/lube combo is the issue.
i sent ian a p.m. last night about this.
when target shooting i just burn one no big deal, but that isn't an option for hunting.
white lith is, so far, one of the better temp stable ingredients i have found, and so is atf in our temp range. Synthetic two-stroke oil seems to be another one with those characteristics.
the carrier is the issue right now for me,maybe a silicone would work [i dunno haven't researched it]
i do know silicones were tried by harris in the 50's but he wasn't satisfied [or didn't try them fully] as he suddenly shifted to his 50-50 mix and lauded it's praises like they were a sponsor of his race team. I wanted to dink with silicones, but the thing is they're weird. Felix and I discussed this at length a few years ago, and he was initially worried about "sandy barrel syndrome" where under enough temperature and pressure the oils might revert to silica. The other thing is that silicone "grease" is a silicone base oil that's fluid but thickened with fumed silica. Not sure fumed silica would hurt a gunbarrel (they use it to thicken milkshakes), but that's not the tack I was looking to take for a thickener/base. Plus, silicone is a lousy metal-to-metal lubricant. I decided not to try it.
i have fought with this for quite a while now and the best answer i still have is to soften my lube for the winter and hope it doesn't fail when it gets warm.

For a while I went down the solids path. I tried a temp-stable synthetic automotive grease and mixed it with ultra-fine baker's flour, sanding dust, whole wheat flour, talc, graphite, Metamucil, and even BPI shot buffer trying to make a temp-stable lube/stop-leak for my boolits. Only the graphite and BPI prevented leading, and didn't give me any real accuracy. I think the other solids made so much friction that the boolit just started rubbing off in the bore.

Joe had a pretty decent beeswax/ivory/castor oil lube that I've tried, but it's so dang hard that you have to hope it sticks to the boolit all the way to the target, and at a certain point it doesn't. But you have to realize I'm using it out of the context he designed it for. He made it to do one thing, I just took the formula and tried it randomly. I never was a fan of hard lubes.

I'm convinced that really fine paper fibers, a hard synthetic wax, and synthetic two-cycle oil mixed to a putty-like consistency would be the bee's knees, but I haven't figures out how to pulp paper with oil. If you do it with water there's no way to keep the fibers separated while they dry. The object would be to have a ballistic stop-leak, temperature-consistent film lubricant, and carrier that would leave the boolit instantly and completely as each groove depressurized at the muzzle crown.

Or maybe Mobil1 5W-40 Mercedes diesel engine oil will prove to be the secret.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Something else I just remembered, I was digging around the internet a while back trying to gain a better understanding of how EP metal-soap greases work, and found a formula for determining the speed rating of a grease so you can get the right stuff for your bearings. Best I could figure, even the thinnest, slipperiest, model racecar lubes are only rated for about 10% the speed of a rifle boolit in metal-to-metal contact speed. After running boolit speed and various HS shaft speeds through my calculator, I figured that most modern, multi-viscosity engine oils will lubricate plain bearings to a surface speed of only about 90 linear feet per second, and that was at 10,000 RPM! So, anybody still think a boolit lube really works like a traditional lube? If it did, things would be much more straightforward.

Gear

[blackthorn]

Quote "I'm convinced that really fine paper fibers, a hard synthetic wax, and synthetic two-cycle oil mixed to a putty-like consistency would be the bee's knees, but I haven't figures out how to pulp paper with oil. If you do it with water there's no way to keep the fibers separated while they dry. "

Electrick blender??

[runfiverun]

another thing that might pan out too is ethylene or other glycol solids.
it can be formed into solids,and would be better than the silicone would.
it's quite stable over temp ranges we would deal with, sometimes i think that in looking for things that will swing cold to hot we look at too broad of a range.
if we could narrow things down to 0 to 100 instead of -40 to 400 it might help.
running on both edges would be infrequent and the other ingredients would broaden the range as a byproduct.

[geargnasher]

Here's another one I've been pondering for some time:

PRODUCT NAME : Hydrogenated Castor Oil
CAS NUMBER : 8001-78-3

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
Appearance : Flakes, white to straw yellow.
Identity A (Melting Point) : 85 to 88ºC
Hydroxyl Value : 154 to 162
Iodine Value : ≤ 5
Saponification Value : 176 to 182
Heavy Metals : ≤ 0,001%
Free Fatty Acids : Máx. 11,0 mL to Sodium Hydroxide 0,1N
Identity B – Hydroxyl Value : 145 to 165

Identity C (Composition of Fatty Acids)
Palmitic Acid ≤ 2,0%
Stearic Acid – 7,0 to 14,0%
Araquinidic Acid ≤ 1,0%
Acid 12-Oxostearic ≤ 5,0%
Acid 12-Hydroxystearic – 78,0 to 91,0%
Any other Fatty Acid ≤3,0%
Acid Value : ≤ 4,0
Iodine Value : ≤ 5,0
Alkaline Impurities : Max. 0,2 mL HCl 0,01M
Nickel : ≤ 5 ppm

What do you think about this stuff?

Gear

[runfiverun]

beat me to it, i was gonna try making something like it with some rubbing alcohol and castor oil.
[origionally i was gonna try glycerin till i talked to felix about that]
i have used rubbing alcohol to take the tack out of carnuba red thinking it was acting on the alcohol esters in the beeswax.
randy rat thought it was modifying the fats in the carnuba.
leading me down the path of thinking again about alcohols and fats....


that's a lot of glide,i am not sure of it alone, or as the lubricant.
what kind of carrier are you thinking?
that and beeswax are pretty close in melt temp.
[my initial reaction was to use a lith stearate as a visc modifier with that stuff straight, but ...no]
a synthetic/or another fat might be better [temp stable]
and the water content is going to be something to deal with also.

i wonder if it could be duplicated [ish]with some castor oil,ivory,and carnuba
the castor heated just to the smoking.
ivory added and stirred.
then the carnuba at melt temp. [or jpw straight]
then some alcohol added to bind everything into a solid letting the alcohol bubble off......

i still wonder about a carrier though, that truly could be the issue.

HELP..........

[btroj]

I don't know if polyethlene glycols are the way to go. They tend to have a brittle nature compared to things like beeswax. Having made more than a few suppositories with the stuff I just don't know if it has the properties needed as a carrier. I did try some once, many years ago, as a lube for minis in a rifle musket with black. It wouldn't stay on the projectiles for anything. Maybe some lanolin would have helped.

From what you guys are saying it seems the issues are more with the carrier than with the lubricants themselves. The carrier needs to be hard, or soft, enough to handle the temps. What we almost need is something that is harder at 100 degrees than it is at 30.

Each of you has mentioned modification of lubes for a particular temp range. I wonder if you have tried a "compromise" lube to expand the useful range?

Gear, when the MML gave problems in the heat of your summer what kinds of problems did you have? Was it just a runny mess? Poor accuracy? Leading? Just want to have an idea what you look out for.

[btroj]

Just thought of another question. When a lube does poorly in either low or high temps is it because of trouble with the lube on the bullet or the lube remaining in the barrel from previous shots?
I always assumed the cold weather , cold barrel problem was more due to lube from previous shots in the barrel being thick enough to create problems. Makes me wonder of dry patching the bore before that first shot would make a difference.

[geargnasher]

Brad, blowing through the bore slowly about ten times and patching out the condensation has helped me with cold-barrel flyers, but only if done right before shooting.

I don't know if it's the bore condition (lube film), the lube in the grooves, or the way the lube acts after the boolit has cleared the muzzle that makes the difference, but I believe it's all a factor. MML didn't lead when it was hot or when the barrel was hot, but it starts throwing wild flyers and I literally had lube dripping off of my muzzle after 10 shots. I think that was mostly bore condition throwing classic "purge flyers". If I patched out every shot it worked fine at 98 degrees.

Standard Felix lube, according to the recipe, is my compromise lube. It doesn't seem to have much of a practical limit in the upper ranges of shooting temps, and it's tough to make it fail in a hot barrel on a hot day through long strings provided you fill the minimum number of grooves, sometimes only one. I "torture tested" FWFL one time last summer, firing 40 rounds from cross-sticks out of my 336 .30-30 with a stiff dose of 748 behind a 311041. The temp was hovering around 106 ambient, 115 heat index, and ohmygod in the direct sun. I shot ten from the bench and decided I was going to die if I stayed out any longer. The brass needed a trim so I let the other 40 fly to see how the lube did. The first shot from the bench was as good as the last from the sticks, the stuff never let me down even though the barrel got so hot it burned me through the foregrip. The only problem with it is it throws cold barrel shots a bit low usually below about 50 degrees, and a bit of vaseline, reduction of carnauba, and switch to stearic acid from Ivory (sodium stearate) makes it shoot great to freezing. If it's below freezing I'm not hunting, period. I detest cold.

Gear

[geargnasher]

beat me to it, i was gonna try making something like it with some rubbing alcohol and castor oil.
[origionally i was gonna try glycerin till i talked to felix about that]
i have used rubbing alcohol to take the tack out of carnuba red thinking it was acting on the alcohol esters in the beeswax.
randy rat thought it was modifying the fats in the carnuba.
leading me down the path of thinking again about alcohols and fats....


that's a lot of glide,i am not sure of it alone, or as the lubricant.
what kind of carrier are you thinking?
that and beeswax are pretty close in melt temp.
[my initial reaction was to use a lith stearate as a visc modifier with that stuff straight, but ...no]
a synthetic/or another fat might be better [temp stable]
and the water content is going to be something to deal with also.

i wonder if it could be duplicated [ish]with some castor oil,ivory,and carnuba
the castor heated just to the smoking.
ivory added and stirred.
then the carnuba at melt temp. [or jpw straight]
then some alcohol added to bind everything into a solid letting the alcohol bubble off......

i still wonder about a carrier though, that truly could be the issue.

HELP..........

I was thinking beeswax as a carrier, too, just not too sure about the proportions. Soy "wax" has been tried by others as a lube base, and I think Sagacious had pretty good luck with it for one, but it turns to liquid at something like 105 degrees. He added something to it, perhaps castor oil or beeswax, I'll have to go digging again. Wish he still posted here. Will messed with soy wax too, but I don't know how far he got with it. Sagacious believed that the future of lube development would center around using hydrogenated fatty oils because they were their own carrier, needing little additive to make them work except something to make them firmer at higher temps.

I need to get my hands on some of this castor wax and play with it to see what it needs. People have been using it for years in boolit lube, although unbeknownst to them, when they add crayons to their lube for color! Might need a carrier, might not. It might need some beeswax to make it pliable.

Sorry your thread has derailed into a lube discussion, but at least it's an interesting one!

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ok, here's a really good one: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=81814&highlight=soy

Felix mentioned Vybar, I can't believe I forgot about that one. It's a binder the candle makers use for free-standing candles, and I have a sneaky suspicion it might be found in some of the White Label formulas.

There are more threads...

Gear

[runfiverun]

one of my best lubes so far has been a blend of two sides.
multiple carriers, b-wax,soy wax,parrafin. 60-40-10
moly,alox,and lith stearate. 20-20-60 but only 50% of the carrier total
lanolin,and carnuba both under 5% of the total and less than 1% atf.
it's a hard soft back and forth.
the moly has to be added when the lube is not melted to keep it in suspension or it falls out.
it flows in the lubrisizer with very small amonts of heat and only about 40-50 lbs of air pressure.
it has a tack and a glide to it when smashed between the fingers.
and has a consistency of silly putty.
it is super accurate in the cold with no surprise flyers, but i still don't put the first cold bbl shot in the group, it would be minute of rabbit head easily but isn't in a half inch 100 yd group.
this so far has been my best all around all temp lube.

[geargnasher]

What I'm getting from the reading is that soy wax is good stuff by itself, although it has a low melting point. Carnauba was mentioned to make it harder, but not raise the melt point significantly. I'm wondering if soy and castor wax might make a good blend.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the thread wandering is one of the things i expect them to do.
it might get back to tips and such. [ehh or not]
i think this is probably entertaining,and educational it has made me do some deeper thinking into an area that is the magic of cast.
one of the big areas in the furthering of accuracy and velocity.
and it sure plays a part in my way of thinking.

think about it, lube is the softest part of the boolit.
it's flexing and flowing and sealing and lubing all at once.....

now if i could figure out what's happening to the alloy going down the bbl.

[geargnasher]

One reason paper patching is so appealing to me is it removes all of the mystery of alloys and lubes from the equation and leaves one with the mechanics of fit, barrel harmonics, and powder selection, same as "jaxketed" stuff. When my head starts to hurt I grab the paper cutter and start rolling.

It's funny how paper jackets need some lube, but it doesn't matter what you use. JPW, 45-45-10, vaseline, beeswax/vaseline, Felix lube, or whatever's in the sizer does the trick.

Gear

[runfiverun]

funny you mention the paper patching.
i was messing with it in my oldest girls 7.7
the first shot was the best one, dead center perfect. after that it threw flyers.
she got impatient and just wanted to shoot.
she took to shooting the first one with the paper,then following it up with cast.
her solution, dang good one too.

[leftiye]

Lube your patches? Googled hydrogenated castor oil, they said it equals castor wax. Same thing?

Have you tried your soy wax lube with castor wax? I'm a proponent of coating the barrel being a big factor (if not the whole ball of wax) in function of boolit lube. If you could just coat the barrel with the right stuff and if it would stay there, it might all be over with lube exploration. However, Carnauba and molybdenum disulphide cannot be applied in more than trace amounts and should probly be limited to 1% of the total lube, and as btroj said carnauba gets real hard when it is cold.

Felix once suggested that castor wax by itself was a passable lube, if not up to par with the best lubes. Bullshop with Bzwax and a synthetic oil (Lotak) shot 3000 fps plus and hit the target too. Maybe soy wax or castor wax and bull plate or 1to100 synthetic 2 stroke oil would take it to the next level. Throw in a little Moly and a little Carnauba maybe.

[geargnasher]

Yep, lube my patches. Like this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e014004bd7b1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1266)

Castor "wax" is the same as soy "wax", not really waxes but hydrogenated oils, like crisco and margerine, just more hydrogenated so they become harder.

I'm really thinking there would be something to the castor wax, but it would probably be too slippery by itself. The soy and castor mixed might be good, but will going down this road really yield something better than the proven formulas we already have? I'm not sure. I haven't even begun to dope out Lotak yet, I think that might prove to be a really good all-around formula too.

What we need here is a good, synthetic macro-crystalline wax with a melt point of about 200 degrees that's still pliable at 10 degrees and will soak up half it's weight in synthetic two-stroke oil.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i got to messing with some stuff this afternoon and started a little experiment well 4 actually.
i was able to get a near crosslink situation to happen with castor oil and ethlyne glycol,and some starting fluid.
the problem i kept running into was some heat would get the others to mix well and leave a beautiful coating on pete plastic.
it would however lose it's cling and viscosity everytime i put heat to it.
i tried alcohol and peg which had some hydrolized castor oil in it [it mixed but seemed to suspend the oil]
ethylene glycol. [seemed like it was in layers till the heat and then the starting fluid] it then acted like it was trying to cross link but didn't have a solid to link up some guar and a slight ph change would have done it
methanol and water mixed [didn't want to fully mix without the heat]
and 90% rubbing alcohol [which just made more thinner castor oil] heat had much less affect on it's viscosity.
i don't have any pure carnuba or i would have added some.

[geargnasher]

Guar gum? Hadn't thought of that one.

So what's the trick here, get the glycols and fatty acids to hook up? Then you'd have a slick, homogenous, temperature-stable, semi-solid substance?

Gear

[runfiverun]

you'd make a gel.
the guar needs the ph low to relax then raised for it to hold a crosslink.
it's slick stuff,comes in a dry form.
if you got in the dust and forgot about it you would find yourself on the shower floor later.
i thought about it when i had access to tons of it but not enough to grab some of course.
the guar powder could work in place of the paper pulp.
i have seen it suspended in diesel fuel [makes napalm] mineral oil, and just water.

[felix]

You'se guys are doin' great! Keep at it. ... felix

[runfiverun]

i'm gonna recap a little here.
bore condition, we have thoughts that the lube in the bbl is drying out causing cracks pits whatever.
the first shot or two is repairing this condition.
if it could be maintained i think the first shot issue would be better, much better.
our viscosity changes when the temp changes,affecting accuracy on the first shot or over a long string.
the carrier is the biggest component in the lube so has the most affect on the lube.
waxes and fats are more affected by temp swings than some oils or most "fluids" [hydraulic,synthetic burnables]
stearates are good boolit lubes.
what works for the hot doesn't in the cold.

a combination of a stearate [solid ?], a fluid, and a temp stable carrier would be a big step forward.

i'm gonna say we haven't made any huge inroads on what we allready knew.
and like fit is king for the boolit.
i'm gonna go out on a limb a little bit and say viscosity stability over temp swings is king in lube.
you can work around it but.....

[btroj]

I am beginning to agree on the need for a lube carrier with viscosity stability over a wide range of temps. Maybe we need to find Mobil 1 synthetic beeswax in multi-viscosity?

I wonder if a combination of the MML microwave and beeswax would have wider range of suitable temps than either one alone? The microwave seems better in cold, the beeswax in heat.

I have to beleive the carrier is the biggest problem, it is far and away the major ingredient in the lube.

[geargnasher]

Eliminating a viscosity-unstable carrier has been my primary goal in lube experiments lately. One of the tasty things about the heavily hydrogenated oils is they don't need much of a carrier. The drawback would be that they, too, have large viscosity swings with temperature. I think Lamar was trying to bind some things together to make the hydrogenated oils more stable, that might just work.

Remember Joe's experiments with soap lubes? One that he said worked pretty well was straight Irish Spring if I remember right. Makes sense, but part of the issue with just using grocery-store soaps is they all have a lot of salt in them, I'm guessing so they stay moist. I've tried a lot of things with stearic acid, but it doesn't work well as a carrier. Glycols absorb water. I don't have any straight Sodium Stearate handy, but I'd like to try it. I still think Joe might be on to something with his beeswax/Ivory/Vaseline/castor lube, maybe with some lanolin even if one could figure out how to mix it in without frying the stuff. Might also work well with two-stroke oil instead of castor, like Lotak with soap instead of carnauba wax as a modifier.

Gear

[Blackwater]

Someone mentioned when you take the barreled action out of the stock. I usually glass bed almost all my rifles, but when I take them apart for a good annual cleaning, I snug up the screws less than full tight, and bump the butt on the floor a few times gently but firmly (try to approximate the gun's recoil level), and then snug the screws while holding the action in place. This tends to minimize any variation in point of impact, etc.

With scopes using Weaver mounts or on Picatinny rails, I always press the scope/ring unit gently but firmly toward the side that has the screw you turn to snug it up, and also forward, since the scope tends to want to slide FORWARD due to inertia and recoil. This results in near perfect POI maintenance when taking a scope off and replacing it. After all, it only takes a variation of about .001" to make a 1" difference in POI at 100, and proportionately at further distances.

[runfiverun]

ben's lube is a good one too the ingredients are right.
as far as temp swings go,it however, is the carrier [again] that will limit it's use.

one other thing that will make the carrier suitable will be shrinkage.
mud is a great slicky till it dries and cracks. [which is i think whats happening in the bbl]

can't someone just come along and tell us what we need here, i think my easy button is broken. :lol:

[runfiverun]

good tip there blackwater.
it's the simple one more step things that can make a big difference.

[geargnasher]

If it was easy anybody could do it! Staples doesn't even know what 16-lb green bar printer paper is.

I just thought of something else to add to the general comments, boolit aging. When I first joined this forum I didn't know anything about heat-treating or low-antimony alloys, but I heard few members talking about it. One in particular kept mentioning how the longer a water-quenched, low-antimony alloy aged, the better it shot. Well, it's true in some cases. I cast up a huge pile of Lee 312-185 boolits from WD50/50 Wheel weights/roofing lead plus 1% tin a couple of years ago, and I've discovered that they keep shooting better and better in two guns that get fed a lot of different things. Nothing's changed with the loads I'm comparing directly except storage time on the alloy. The tested hardness keeps creeping up there, too, probably the reason.

Gear

[MT Gianni]

This is going to get stickied soon. just can't decide if it goes into Classics, stays here or into Lube. Great thoughts here guys.

[btroj]

Gear, I may still have some straight sodium stearate. I ought a kilo or so a few years back for making Felix lube. It is handy to be an RP and have access to ordering from some chemical companies.
If you are interested in some, let me know. Or let me know what your thoughts were and I can see what I can do.

I wonder if any micro waxes exist with a higher melt point. That may help eliminate the heat issues with MML.

Seems to me that a mixture of ingredients is going to be needed for a carrier, I just dont see a single base having the right properties over a 100 degree range.

I have made a batch of Bens lube. Need to add more beeswax, or something, to stiffen it up a bit. And that stuff is slick! Bad thing is I won't be able to get a feel for it in cold til next fall. I have a feeli it will get tested in heat sooner than I want.

[bruce381]

""What we need here is a good, synthetic macro-crystalline wax with a melt point of about 200 degrees that's still pliable at 10 degrees and will soak up half it's weight in synthetic two-stroke oil.""

how about fumed silica it will mix with about any oil or grease and will form a NON melting grease up to a putty consistancy.
used to make high end non melt greases and heavy syn lubes.
PM me I can send out a few jars if anyone wants some to fool with.
Bruce

[geargnasher]

Bruce381, That's mighty generous of you, will keep it in mind if synthetic grease starts to look like the way to go. I spent the last hour lubing, checking, and loading 20 boolits for my .30-'06 using some Permatex Ultra synthetic brake caliper slide grease and Ivory soap that I made up last summer, it's about the consistency of cookie dough and the egg-sized ball hasn't changed at all since I made it save for picking up some lint and cat hair sitting on a shelf in the shop. It hasn't leached any oil, and hasn't corroded the piece of shined-up .45 ACP brass I stuck in it for a test. We'll see what Mr. Rifle and Professor Target have to say in the morning.

I've discussed the fumed silica thing a few times here, but haven't tried it yet. Felix and I discussed silicone oils a couple of years ago and he mentioned that there is a point with heat/pressure that the silicone oil will revert to sand, but probably not in a gun barrel. I know that fumed silica is used as the thickener in dielectric silicone grease, but silicone oil makes a pretty lousy metal-to-metal lubricant, as most silicone oils do, so that combination is out I think. I tried looking up the abrasive properties of the fumed silica by itself once and comparting it to that of other substances for reference, but it's been too long since ME classes and the units and figures are all gibberish to me anymore. Having a temperature-insensitive carrier would be great, though, and now you have me wondering if fumed silica and a good petroleum base oil would work. Did you ever make lubricating grease that contained fumed silica?

I just reread the guar gum thing, seems I missed the part about it taking the place of paper pulp. I was hoping Metamucil would do that, plus it's cheap and readily available, but just mixing it with automotive grease didn't work so well, and the stuff was gritty as heck between the fingers. I was hoping it would act just like a sponge to soak up lube and also provide a physical "stop-leak" to the back side of each driving band while gliding through the bore and then flinging right off at the muzzle. Maybe what I need is dry wood pulp, that's what I was thinking with the baker's flour when I tried it.

Gear

[runfiverun]

brad, let it sit for a week.
i always let a lube rest and usually re-melt it once before making any changes.
after it rests i then put some heat and pressure on it to see how it reacts.
this also gives me time to see if it softens or hardens.

i use a triple carrier now and have had pretty good luck with it, still have the first shot from a cold bbl thats up to two inches away [usually less] at 100 yds.
i use b-wax,soy wax,and parrafin in a 60-40-10 ratio, this still needs a modifier to remain flexible and to get the playdough consistency i like.
i also went with the yin yang lubes and the moly for a coating that would remain.
this is modified further for the cold weather.
i just don't understand the whole add some atf and it's accurate in the cold, leave it out for the summer thing, except for the viscosity change.
i can run it through the lubesizer without heat at about 70*
the summer version is just over 90*
i have crossover temps [40-70] where either one works equally, but i just don't have the extremes covered.
if it's hot i get juice [wet star] out the bbl from the cold lube.
and if it's cold i have to fire a whole string of shots to pull things on target with the hot lube.


anyways that's where my thoughts come from on the need for a "supercarrier"

[geargnasher]

R5R, that sounds like my experiences with lube performance and temps, verbatim, except I use the basic Felix lube in the summer (with carnauba added) and the Felix/Wiljen formula in winter with much less carnauba and sometimes some Vaseline. I keep a Lyman 45 full of each for the rifles 'cuz I'm lazy. One thing I don't get is cold barrel flyers above 50 degrees with the summer formula, though. The first one will always be in the group, I've tested this over and over again, but below 50 both accuracy and first-shot on target start to fall off badly. MML works great in the cold, what little I've shot it. I've been trying to figure out exactly what's going on with each that might be harnessed into a universal lube, but the basic problem is the components of either formula just flat don't have the temp range to work at their best all year.

I like the term "supercarrier", that's exactly what we need.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Interesting range results. I took the rifle out cold and fired ten shots with the Permatex/Ivory lube out of the barrel that had last been fired with a long string of paper-patched boolits lubed with JPW. No cleaning beforehand, and the leading edge of the rifling still had the faintest hint of lead in the very bottom corners from some soft hunting loads I'd shot before the last string of PP. Three into an 1-1/4" triangle, then it settled down into a half-inch group, this is at 50 yards. The rifling was clean as a whistle, no lead traces, and an oily film was evident in the bore with a slight lube star.

So I let it cool for about 20 minutes and fired five of my "standard" load, exact same as the first group, but with Summertime Felix lube. Four went into 1/4" which is fairly typical except for one flyer because of the jerk behind the trigger and a creaky bag/stock interface.

The strange thing is the muzzle end was bone dry and streaked with light leading in the grooves, not a problem I usually have with this load and lube. I think the Felix lube didn't like the other stuff, or there was some leading from the first string somewhere that worked its way down to the muzzle.

I'm going to try more of the synth. grease/Ivory stuff later, with a clean barrel and shoot a lot more of them, also at longer ranges.

Another observation was that the synth. grease/Ivory group was a full inch lower at 50 than the FWFL group, which is very consistenly dead-on at that range. Looks like I need to chronograph the next batch, too.

Gear

[runfiverun]

it could be that fine line again.
where slippery adds to the bbl coating, reducing friction, but makes it harder for the lead to grip the rifling too.
im not done with this, i just need to broaden the search some.
maybe that "j" stick we discussed before will show some promise. i have some 22's in the garage i'll have to get ready.
but i am going into the 40-70 temp range this time of year so all i'll get is a comparison with no extremes. this might take another 6 months to draw conclusions from.
unless i get fairly radical with a cooler.

[Jammer Six]

At about 80 degrees, I go sailing, not shooting. At about 25 degrees, I run for the pickup, and sit there with the heater going until everyone agrees that it's time to go home, build a large, hot fire and drink Kahluah and coffee.

I've done all that march-or-die stuff, and those days are three decades in the past.

I had absolutely no idea that lube was like a separate science! So I need to master pouring, and then start studying lube? Or can the two be studied together? :)

If I restrict my shooting to 1911s, and I restrict it to the temperatures above, (easily accomplished) does the lube choice get simpler?

[geargnasher]

Jammer Six, lube performance is one of those things that crops up way, way into advanced cast boolit shooting, when little quirks start to pop up that get annoying and make a person strive for fixes. Most of the time, for most shooting, lubes like NRA 50/50, White Label BAC, Felix Lube, etc. work just fine, or can be altered slightly for best performance in a given climate. If you shoot just .45 ACP when the weather's comfy, melt some beeswax and Vaseline together under low heat and call it good.

Gear

[Jammer Six]

it's good!

:D

[runfiverun]

about anything will work in low stress medium temperature situations.
b-wax and parrafin 50-50 will work good too.
it's at the extremes of pressure/velocity/and temperature that issues arise.
it can be the difference between a 1" group or bigger because of flyers,or making a group better and more consistent over a long period of time.
i will dress and shoot in -20 [thats about my limit] unless the wind is blowing.
when it gets over 90 is when i give up, i fortnatly can drive to a higher,much higher, elevation in about 15-20 minutes lowering the temperature quickly.
we have snowball fights in august sometimes.....


i am starting to work with some synthetic grease with 2% propylene glycol in it. straight and tacky.
this has dome well by not melting after 2 quick 1:30 times back to back in the microwave. and then going straight into the freezer.
and then a modified version of the 45/45/10 lube in the same rifle.
i may have a short window of temp extremes available this/next week where i can do some early morning high elevation cold temp shooting then come off the mountain and catch some 65* afternoons.
if the road is open......

[btroj]

If I limited my shooting to temps between 25 and 80 I would eliminate much of the year in Nebraska.
Like Gar said, I have had little trouble in many situations with lubes at either temp extreme. In cold weather it is oly a couple guns with cold barrel problems and in heat I haven't had any problems, yet. I think smaller diameter, lighter bullets are a bigger problem. My 32-20 gives cold barrel flyers but my 45-70 doesn't. Maybe the heavier bullet can overcome the barrel condition problem?
I have not noticed any issues in a handgun at all, then again I haven't shot them froma bench to get a feel for any small differences temp may make. I don't think a mil-spec 1911 is going to notice any temp differences from a decent lube.

[375RUGER]

Has anyone considered this before?
Something I've had put down in my lube notebook to investigate is the use of Fluorinated Grease (PFPE)and wheter or not it would be suitable in use as a boolit lube.
One brand is Dupont Krytox. There are others out there DOW has one. The Krytox also comes in a non-contact food grade offering.
A few things I know about fluorinated grease:
1. first and foremost is it is NOT compatible with regular petroleum and synthetic lubricants. So barrels would have to be thoroughly cleaned before using PFPE lube and after if a conventional lube is to be used.
2. exhibits superior performance from -70*F to 750*F depending on which forumulation
3. contains no silicone
4. it's basically synthetic fluorinated oil and teflon
5. no flash or fire point
6. excellent wear resistance, high load carrying ability
7. usually indicated in high temp applications but often specified for it wear resistance alone
8. chemically inert, Insoluble in hydrocarbons, petroleum distillates,
water, steam, chemical solvents and acids/bases
9. i know from personal experience it only takes a very thin film
10. if a boolit lube was made it would have the distinction of being the saffron of lubes. It costs me about $35 for a 2oz tube.

We use it in a clean room environment and have not had any issues except for the noncomptibility I mentioned earlier.

As far as a carrier, I don't have any input on this. I don't, haven't investigated it's compatibility with natural products we are usually discussing on this forum. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of greases and fluorinated lube can help shed some light on this.
This stuff might be too good (read too high lubricity) as a boolit lube, IDK. Or it might work really well in the summer and the winter, again IDK.
I just thought I'd throw it out there since I didn't get any search before on the subject and thought in an "advance lube thread" it might be a good topic.

[runfiverun]

airc this is petro floro petro etylene.
cousin to petro tetra floro etylene.
you have to be real careful with this category of oils as they can burn and release flourine gas.

the slicky is about the easiest thing to find for lube ingredients, getting it mixed with something that flows and flexes under pressure yet remains stable at temp extrememes and to keep on doing that consistently, and in the bbl also between uses is the ultimate goal.

i can swab a bbl before leaving the house to lay a coating in it to help the first shot.
but that's just a bandaid.

[btroj]

The slick part certainly doesn't appear to be the problem. If Run can add ATF and the lube does well in winter and Gear can add some Vaseline and get same results then it isn't so much a "lube" problem as much as itis a "hardness" problem.
The hardness to me comes from the carrier, not the "lube" part of the mix.

The tough part of testing things like this is that I can't get both temp extremes in a reasonable time frame. In a few months I can see how heat changes things but for cold it is gonna be a while.

[375RUGER]

Different lube types have different operating characteristics (thermal stability, freezing and boiling points, viscosity). Then you have to modify it with a carrier.
the lube affects the carrier viscosity, and is adjusted in ratios to get the desired consistency. i.e. PAO oils make beeswax tacky. Several of the loob recipes here use a PAO. Keep adding oil and you eventually end up with syrup. That's why there are so many different formulas for grease and different recipes to fill the grooves with loob. Most of the modifications I see are using a lube to thin. ATF and vasoline example above is a good example, both lubricants added to a loob that was already good enough for a broad range of applications.
SLC-400 synthetic cryogenic grease also comes to mind as a lube that meets specific application criteria to perform from sub-zero to more normal temps. I had actually forgot about it until I went through my liquid N2 notes from some time back.
Bens Red uses grease as the main ingredient. Maybe SLC-400 would be a good substitute for the Lucas Hi-temp grease and give better cold temp performance. might not even need the ATF for thinning given the SLC400s performance.
I'm not saying to change the 'slick' unless there is a better slick that has better or broader low to high temp characteristics. Just saying look at the lubes temperature stability/operating characteristics, then look to the carrier, then adjust with other modifiers. There are so many advanced lubricants nowadays it only takes money to design and build the perfect boolit loob.

[runfiverun]

the temp window necessary is not all that large.
the monkey wrench is the pressure,sealing ability,and the shear factor of rotation.
then you throw in the bbl's condition of hot/cold/humidity.
and long periods of non use, where you lose it's pristine smooth gloss.
and things become more complicated.
most synthetics truly are just hydrocarbons broken down further into smaller chains allowing them to get into smaller imperfections in the metals and adhering [giving them a larger footprint] to them better.
which creates a better shear strength, they arent slicker there's just more of them gliding over each other.
i too am convinced that the base is the key to what happens with this.

[Jammer Six]

You guys are making my head hurt... I ain't never going to be this good at casting boolits...

[btroj]

Jammer, this stuff will never be noticed by many cast bullet shooters. I never noticed this until the past few years and I have been shooting cast for approaching 30 years.
I agree with Gear when he says this is getting into the Ph D level of cast bullet shooting.

Heck, it makes my head hurt. Part of the magic of a site like this is the ability to ring people together who have such a wide range of academic, personal, and work knowledge. This combination plus the open sharing of info makes for a wealth of knowledge. We are truly blessed to have this sharing of knowledge, even when it hurts my head!

[leftiye]

I just had a hallucination, er thought. We've mentioned Speed Green and Lotak here previously. The thought is - what is the possibility that beezwax with a little synthetic oil in it works differently than the lubes we've been dealing with so far here and elsewhere? Is it possible that it simply leaves a coating of the synthetic oil on the barrel (you can't dodge that one, that is all it could possibly do)? The point I'm making is - what if the reason it works so well is that it doesn't do all of that other stuff? Just some oil, & done? No nothing else on the barrel, no large amount of lube to purge or burn, or whatever. If so, when making Lotak, maybe be real careful to not get too much carnauba in it! Or maybe the oil softens the carnauba, making it not build up, or purge?

[btroj]

I have never grid speed green so I can't say for certain Leftiye. The key to me is how well does speed green work in 100 degree heat in summer and does it give cold barrel flyers in the 30 degree range? That is the real test.

I don't know if two cycle oil has been tried with micro wax. Bet it would be too soft for hot weather use.

[runfiverun]

i have thought the same thing.
i have talked to dan and daniel about this some time back.
daniel did not have a clue but he knew it worked.
dan wasn't sure of the mechanisms involved either and he had another issue to deal with which cut short the discussion.
he did modify it however for the other lube, lotak, i never got into that one with him though.
if the synthetic oil is changing the bees wax somehow i wouldn't have a clue as to what it would be doing.
bees wax is mostly alcohols [ester as i recall] so it truly would just be a carrier for the two stroke.
i have a feeling that the alcohols in the beeswax act on the fats in the carnuba making it harder and possibly more brittle in nature and that is why the percentage of carnuba has to be so low in a beeswax recipe.
now a synthetic versus a regular two stroke would be something else.
and a simple lube is the best kind.
the bbl coating is essential and is why i chose atf as a final modifier.
a regular two stroke and micro would be viable as the oil would be a lube and a modifier [plasticizer] of the parrafin.
i don't think it would hurt to try it but have a feeling something else would be needed.
i really wish i could get some sperm whale oil and give that a whirl with beeswax...

[geargnasher]

I haven't messed much with Lotak, although I made some. I also have some speed green that I have shot, it's ok but not what I'm looking for. I'm avoiding the two-stroke oils right now because they are formulated to BURN. Burn CLEAN, yes, but still burn. Using Bullplate for a sprue plate lube will show you right quick how much organic vapor it lets off as it decomposes, and I don't want it leaving the lube or the barrel. That's why I'm experimenting with fully-synthetic ATF, that stuff is designed for lots of heat, pressure, shear, and oxidation prevention. Not to mention anti-foaming properties. Synthetic ATF, carnauba, and beeswax makes about as good a lube as I've shot, but it has some issues of its own related to the carrier that I haven't worked out completely.

Gear

[luvtn]

Why not just use JPW? Tumble lube or use a little parafin to provide some consistency? Or just use it to wipe down the barrel prior to going out into the cold? I guess we could also wipe down our bores with a heavy duty silicone lube prior to shooting in a cold environment. Good discussion. I am learning a lot.
lt

[runfiverun]

luvtn and anybody else.
this discussion continues in the lube section.
geargnasher started a thread called the quest for ulimate lube.
that one really gets into the crux of what happens,where this leads to, and explains a whole lot about lube ingredients,how lube works,and is still ongoing.
there are some good recipes and discussion on why some ingredients that have traditionally been recommended are not the better ingredients to use.
there are some recipes and ideas that you will not see anyplace else.

[geargnasher]

Lamar, I'm going to stick Brad's "FIT" thread link here for future reference, it ties right in with the lube discussion and we know that poor fit is the unseen enemy of lube and everything else.

Any new guys that want to know more about leading, lube, and accuracy and the one thing it all relates to, check it out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?166506-What-is-quot-fit-quot&highlight=fit

Gear

[runfiverun]

oh yeah i completly forgot about that.
i'm glad you remembered, i'm gonna link that 270-0'6 thread here also.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?178725-Long-range-boolits-for-30-06-and-270-Needed/page2
this will reinforce brad's thread and add a lot of info.

i think i'll link my simple lube thread here also.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?168373-simple-lube

2-3 more links and i won't have to post anymore responses. :lol:

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?180898-Sprue-Sticking
ben cutting a sprue plate to help it drop the sprue.

[cdupuy]

One can anoint the bore with mos2 (trade name Molyslide) by Neco to eliminate the wild first shots, what is happening is that the first shot on the clean bore is a bunch faster so it is out of the group.

[runfiverun]

umm no you still have lube fouing to deal with.
however one of my best lubes that eliminates/cuts down on first shot flyers does have moly in it.
one of the better efforts we have come up with is also a reduction of the powder by 4-5% to make the first shot throw itself into the group from a fouled barell.

i think jaxketed don't have this issue as much because the fouling it deals with is dry so it doesn't change over short periods of time.

[geargnasher]

The other thing jaxketed has is GILDING METAL, which is alloyed to be self-lubricating against steel.

Gear

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183457-Throat-diameter-vs-Groove-diameter
another discussion on the throat /chamber neck relationship.

[geargnasher]

Oh, that matters? :kidding:

Gear

[runfiverun]

hey, i'm working on a book here :lol:
it might seem a little overdone these last few links.
but it IS what matters.
you can get away with some other stuff that's wrong, but if you get this right it is like a bandaid.
it helps hold things together untill you find the antibiotic.

[runfiverun]

one more from a different angle.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185134-Bore-rider-boolits-101-needed

[runfiverun]

little casting help.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?189087-Why-are-quot-Frosted-quot-bullets-considered-rejects

[.22-10-45]

Hello, and very interesting posts! I haven't seen synthetic spermaceti wax mentioned..I used to buy coffee can quantities from Charlie Dell when he came up to our MI schuetzen shoots..haven't been able to find anything smaller than a 50# drum..group buy? I did send for a free sample from Ross waxes..but the stuff has consistancy of rendered mutton tallow..mixed up some in same proportions as Dell's synthetic..and much softer..even softer than SPG..I hardened it up with B.W. & carnauba but will have to wait till Spring for testing.
I have noticed when shooting cast in a Shillen barreled Hornet, the lube star is very small to non-existant..and seems to remain so. I am using Lyman Super Moly and a Leeth custom nose-pour 55gr.
This home-brew lube mixing is addicting! The main enemy for me is time..not enough of it to try everything I would like!

[geargnasher]

Isn't Cetyl Esters NF what's called "synthetic spermaceti wax" these days? I haven't messed with it myself but it has been used to good effect by others.

Gear

[runfiverun]

some help with identifying isotope lead.
http://fellingfamily.net/isolead/

[runfiverun]

some handle pictures and what they fit.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?131147-The-Right-Handles-Pic-Thread!!
thanks, Suo Gan
great old thread.

[country gent]

Playing with neck tension can make a big diffrence in how a load performs. Bushing dies are great for this. I havent used an expander ball in years as I feel the do more harm than good. Id rather match a bushing to the cases wall thickness and do it right the first time rather than do it small and fix it on the way out.
Uniformity of flash holes can make a slight improvement in a load.
Having a "plan" to work up a load makes things go much easier
Patience with all the steps and what you are doing at the moment.
Most guns will out shoot their owners if things are done correctly. Not just in loading but including follow thru trigger control bench teqnique recoil control cleaning. The handling of a firearm off the bench isnt always the same from rifle types or diffrent calibers.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world&highlight=effective

a good discussion on alloy make-up and it's affects when paired with velocity.

thank's tim.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?193504-Powder-Burn-and-Pressure-Relationship

a good discussion on powder and how it burns.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?196444-Browning-1886-Throat-Fix

what it took to have his throat fixed, this is real common and super simple.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?104800-Impact-of-alloy-temperate-and-mould-temperate-on-bullet-diameter

good discussion on mold and alloy temp versus boolit diameter.
or how to manipulate a mold for different diameters.

[geargnasher]

Here's a classic that needs a good referencing from time to time: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?55869-Lubes-velocity-and-accuracy/page3&highlight=44man

Gear

[runfiverun]

I dunno how you dug that up.
but I remember that pretty well.
funny how ol joe-b was blown off in a couple of pages and other stuff was discussed.

keep E'm coming.

[sparkz]

Had you Guys ever tryed "Castor-R" its a 2-stroke Oil for Pre-mix (smells like Cox air-planes, cux thats Castor oil) I saw talk about castor and old dirt bikeing came to mind, another was Klotz synthetic it was a heat stable 2 stroke oil or was billed as it, might help with hot and cold temps,, (stings nose as bikes passed)
Just trying to spark a thought about carryer oils

Patrick

[runfiverun]

Patrick.
castor oil is the main lubricant in felix lube.
it's also used in the SL-61 series of lubes.
it needs to be polymerized to be real effective which is not a problem especially in a poe oil as we have been cooking the solvents off the poe's lately.
ohhh a little more info, on those old 2-strokes the castor oil was added as a lubricant long ago [even used in old airplanes] but it also helped keep polybutene from building up and sticking to the bearings before it was burned off in the cylinders.
it was a give and take between the two ingredients where one helped the other in different situations.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?3696-What-do-we-know-about-H-Guy-Loverin/page3
some discussion about H Guy Loverign. [with some memories from family members]
and hopefully some pictures.

[runfiverun]

discussion on lee sprue plates.
they are slightly concave.....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208648-New-Problem-Lee-6-Cav-Sprue-Plates

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?212747-Current-Information-Regarding-DD-214-s

this is some help in getting past paper work like your discharge papers.
it might be handy for the family or yourself.

[geargnasher]

How to clean and maintain alloy http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184987-Fluxing-with-sawdust-tell-me-how&highlight=sawdust

Another one: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?212084-Flux-question


Gear

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?213379-Zinc-isn-t-the-ONLY-thing-that-bubbles-with-acid
a little metallurgical help and a link.

[runfiverun]

Tim showing how to do a pound cast.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218414-FYI-This-is-how-I-do-a-pound-cast

[newbycaster]

Hello all. I am new to casting my own bullets and I have a question. If I am using a Lee mold .452 do I need to size them to 452 or 451 to use in a ruger 1911? I have heard some say that I should use 452 for jacketed and 451 for lead bullets. So if that is the case do I size a 452 to 451 or what? This may be a basic question to some but like I said i'm new and I don't wanna buy the wrong equipment. Thanks for your time.

[runfiverun]

you have it backwards.
jaxketed will work and shoot well at a smaller size.
you'll use 451 with the copper ones and 452 with the cast ones.
that's the short story.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?219249-Search-on-progressive-press
good discussion on progressive presses, and several links to other discussions.
should be helpful if you are thinking about your first [or second] one.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?225875-Is-your-nose-too-big
another good one by Ben.
this one showing some tricks to nose sizing.

[geargnasher]

http://www.texas-mac.com/sitebuilder/images/Extended_BHN_Chart_for_Lee_Tester3-728x491.jpg

Extended chart for Lee-type lead hardness testers.

Gear

[44man]

Just maybe and I am not sure so forgive me. I might shoot the smallest revolver groups ever. Not all the time but on the average. I really get out of sorts when I exceed 1" at 50 yards and prefer way smaller and have done under 1/4". I am the limit, not the gun.
The reason is a lot of work and the understanding of the revolver and what it needs. When I go see a 2" pattern at 50 yards I get angry, what the hell did I do wrong? I cuss at myself all the time.
You just do not know how much I get mad at myself with failures.
Too much is made of what works and 90% of what is posted can be tossed. The right way is so easy and normal without all kinds of dies or alloys and lubes it will blow you away.
Some spend thousands on equipment to solve what they do not understand. A Lyman "M" die or a Lee FCD makes me sad for you. Super hard crimps is also in there.
Basics only. I might be the the guy that uses less then anyone else to shoot the best, a rotten, old SOB with fixed rules that do not need written down and if you watch me load you will see NOTHING different. Yet you do not know how I got there unless you read what I have said. Felix has made me better with a lube that works, what a great man. No other has done a thing for me because they were wrong and gun writers are the worst.
Any person that repeats what someone else says is suspect. Be your own person.

[geargnasher]

A link for Savage 219 fans...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?231324-You-guys-might-know-Savage-219-question&p=2640806&viewfull=1#post2640806

Gear

[DrCaveman]

Just maybe and I am not sure so forgive me. I might shoot the smallest revolver groups ever. Not all the time but on the average. I really get out of sorts when I exceed 1" at 50 yards and prefer way smaller and have done under 1/4". I am the limit, not the gun.
The reason is a lot of work and the understanding of the revolver and what it needs. When I go see a 2" pattern at 50 yards I get angry, what the hell did I do wrong? I cuss at myself all the time.
You just do not know how much I get mad at myself with failures.
Too much is made of what works and 90% of what is posted can be tossed. The right way is so easy and normal without all kinds of dies or alloys and lubes it will blow you away.
Some spend thousands on equipment to solve what they do not understand. A Lyman "M" die or a Lee FCD makes me sad for you. Super hard crimps is also in there.
Basics only. I might be the the guy that uses less then anyone else to shoot the best, a rotten, old SOB with fixed rules that do not need written down and if you watch me load you will see NOTHING different. Yet you do not know how I got there unless you read what I have said. Felix has made me better with a lube that works, what a great man. No other has done a thing for me because they were wrong and gun writers are the worst.
Any person that repeats what someone else says is suspect. Be your own person.

44man

You are obviously of very strong opinion, and preference toward Your ways. No problem there. I wonder if you have considered writing a book to consolidate and condense your experiences/findings/methods. Hell, i would "like" to be pissed off about a 2" group at 50 yds with revolver. Ive read a lot of your posts, but since your count is over 15k, i have read a fraction at best. Seriously, write a book, id pay you for it


I actually just wanted to say that this thread is pretty awesome! The growth recently has been amazing, and while i havent read all the links, the ones i have deserved looking at.

Sometimes, when something wise has been said, its better to quote the wise than to paraphrase and call it your own.

Thanks runfiverun and geargnasher for contributions. Careful though, if it gets too big it may need to be further subcategorized to find anything. Maybe start a tips that may help part 2?

[burrkiss]

For a cheap/free place to get sawdust is your local Lowes/Home Depot/Menards store. One that will cut wood will have sawdust. You might have to buy a 5 gallon bucket to not look totally crazy.

[geargnasher]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236600-Stripping-the-rifling-on-a-cast-bullet

If you want torsional stress calculations, this is it.

Gear

[runfiverun]

too bad DR-B. got bent and didn't finish his thesis on the subject.
I think it would have went further.

[geargnasher]

Yes, too bad indeed.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Some info on Lithi-Bee...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?42970-Question-on-Lithium-Beeswax-Bullet-Lube

Gear

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?248668-How-do-you-FIT-a-boolit-or-design-it-for-a-lever-action-with-a-deep-throat

another good discussion started by Tim.
it has some valid points on both sides of the discussion about static and a moving mechanical throat fit.
Tom adds some valuable pictures and valid points about static fit.

[runfiverun]

good primer info, cup thickness and stuff.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?251074-primer-223-300-blackout-Question
it's down in post 6 or so.

[runfiverun]

neat sizing idea using H&I dies and LEE push through stems.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252827-Using-Lyman-H-amp-I-dies-in-standard-press!

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254975-Gear-s-190x

some good discussion throughout this one on design and alloy.
never mind us goofing off in this one there is some very helpful info.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255440-30XCB-threads-What-happened
this one gets a little rough, but the information starts flowing on page 3-4.

[Bob Maerdian]

tHE DACRON WILL IMPROVE ACCURACY UNTIL IT INGS YOUR CHAMBER. I ringed two chambers in 2 different Springfield 30-06 rifles! Didn't have that problem with kapok, but I wont use fillers any more.

Bob

[runfiverun]

the appropriate use of the fillers will prevent the ring.
you use the filler to fill the gap between the boolit and the powder,, it must touch both, with compression.
just like a black powder load, leave an air gap and you have a problem.
it can happen with card stock, poly wads, gas checks and other types of case fillers if they are used improperly.

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?264386-Cast-Boolit-Design-parameter-question

something rarely thought of when designing your own boolit, but this should help with placing the balance point in the right place.

[geargnasher]

After I figured out why the Lee CM liked to swap ends, I thought a LOT about that and it is one of my top considerations when designing a bullet. Great thread and hat's off to Tom Meyers.

Gear

[Grmps]

If you always fill a multi-cavity mold starting with the hole nearest the hinge the sprue will cut easier.

To lube the sprue hinge and dispense synthetic 2 stroke oil additive I found that Steel Needle TIP Dropper Bottles work wonderfully, no more over lubing the sprue plate hinge and getting lube in the cavity near the hinge.
https://i.imgur.com/5Wv3rtC.png

[blackthorn]

If you always fill a multi-cavity mold starting with the hole nearest the hinge the sprue will cut easier.

To lube the sprue hinge and dispense synthetic 2 stroke oil additive I found that Steel Needle TIP Dropper Bottles work wonderfully, no more over lubing the sprue plate hinge and getting lube in the cavity near the hinge.
https://i.imgur.com/5Wv3rtC.png

Grmps---Where do you get those bottles??

[Grmps]

the online auction site or Amazon. Google "Steel Needle TIP Dropper Bottles Canada"
You could try where they sell essential oils, tattoo supplies, sewing machine supplies ...
I also use them to lube my presses and guns.

[blackthorn]

Grmps---thank you.