PP'ing for Mosin Nagant. Need expierienced help

[littlejack]

Hey to you paper jacket boys:
I have been playing with cast boolits in my m44 Mosin Nagant. I bought one of
the NOE 316299 moulds when the last group buy was in motion.
I am not really impressed with the results so far, and I would like to shoot my
boolits a lot faster with some accuracy.
I would like to give the pp'ing a try. I would also like to shoot a lighter boolit, in
the 165 to 180 weight range.
My bore slugs at .304+, and the groove dimension is .315+.
I can chamber loaded rounds with boolits sized to .317.
I did an impact cast of the chamber, the chamber is approximately .150 in length,
ahead of the case neck end.
Questions: Is it best to shoot the bore rider style boolits, patched accourdingly?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Jack

[303Guy]

Any chance of pictures of your throat 'impact cast'?

You may find it better shoot boolits sized and shaped to match your rifle's throat. That's easy to say when I have a lathe and can make my own molds. But maybe you can get close by sizing your existing boolits with an appropriate sizer (not sure what easier, a new mold or a new sizer die).

Is there a particular reason you want to shoot lighter boolits? It could solve your boolit size dilemma (or make it worse).

[littlejack]

303, thanks for the reply.
I am afraid, that I have not mastered the art of posting photos.

I've been lurkin on this site for quite a while. I know that you and a few others have done
considerable R&D with the smokeless pp boolits. Thanks for offering your expierience.
As for the boolit weight, I was thinking of keeping the football type trajectory to a minimum.
I deal with that enough with my bp 45-70.
I did find some 165 grain flat point Laser-Cast boolits that I had stuffed away. These were
originally for the 30-30 cartridge.
I just finished pp'ing them, and it looks as though they may be very close to the proper
diameters when dry. They started out at .310 diameter on the driving bands, and about .297
on the bore riding section.
That would be great if they worked first time, but I am not going to hold my breath.
If they look promising, there should be a mould available somewhere, that is close to this
boolit.
Question:
What would you recommend for a powder and charge weight to start off with?
Jack

[303Guy]

Well, I lean toward what pdawg_shooter says, that being to use a powder that fills the case or as much as possible. The recommended paper patch loads are starting loads for jacketed. I've developed a PP load in a 'test tube' by starting low and working up until the patch fragmented properly then loaded up and went shooting. In short, I found the minimum load. The powder was AR2205/H4227 and I used wheat bran filler (I now use wheat germ for it's consistency and colour - it looks prettier). The load produced a reasonable pressure - not too high and was reasonably quiet with a velocity of around 1600fps, maybe less. That was with a 208gr boolit. I shot turkeys with it. (You need enough gun and penetration to kill a turkey! [smilie=1:) The reason for the heavy boolit is throat fit. I've driven a 194gr boolit to over 2000fps with a 14½" barrel but not with any accuracy. I've shot 147gr boolits from the same short barrelled gun with lighter shotgun powder loads that were quite accurate at close range. I don't like smaller charges of fast powder because of the possibility of double charges of just overloads.

Full case loads give a secondary safety effect - that of preventing chambering a round with a boolit already stuck in the throat. The powder prevents the boolit from being pushed back into the case far enough for the bolt to be close and the rifle blown up. Happened to me! (I mean the bullet wouldn't push back far enough to chamber the round and blow the gun up).

[pdawg_shooter]

I size all my bore riders down to bore diameter +.001 along with the body. I patch full length from just ahead of the start of the ogive to the tail. This gives the whole bullet support against deformation from acceleration. Lovern style bullets make great paper patch bullets. Make sure you cast bullet nose is .3045/.305. That is what works best for me anyhow.

[nanuk]

.... The load produced a reasonable pressure - not too high and was reasonably quiet with a velocity of around 1600fps, maybe less. That was with a 2087gr boolit. I shot turkeys with it. (You need enough gun and penetration to kill a turkey! [smilie=1:)


I hear ya....

anything less than about 4 lbs of lead tossed at 'em will just bounce off the wing feathers... :kidding:

[littlejack]

After drying over night on the heater vent, I measured the pp'd boolits.
The bore riding section mic's at .303 to .304 depending on where it is measured.
The patched driving band diameter measures .315 to .316. I could use a heavier paper to get
the diameters a little larger. I may patch some larger today.
I am anxious give these a try, when the weather clears. We woke up to 4" of snow here on
the valley floor and it just keeps on coming.
I am scheuled to work at the range on Saturday, so I will probaly shoot these pp'd boolits
then.
I have some Alliant 2400, Reloader 7, IMR 4064, and some IMR 4350. I will probably start with the
Reloader 7, and the IMR 4064.
I do not have, at this time a sizer to size the boolits down to bore + .001.
I guess the biggest setback is that I only have about fifty of these boolits. Then, I will have
to start all over again.
I will eventually have to buy a mould.
What would be the best mould for fit in my rifle with all of you fellas expierience?
Jack

[geargnasher]

After drying over night on the heater vent, I measured the pp'd boolits.
The bore riding section mic's at .303 to .304 depending on where it is measured. Almost, but not quite. Shoot them anyway and see, but don't expect the best accuracy.
The patched driving band diameter measures .315 to .316. I could use a heavier paper to get
the diameters a little larger. I may patch some larger today. I don't know what you used, but get something thicker and size it back down to where it will barely chamber, or about .317" or so.
I am anxious give these a try, when the weather clears. We woke up to 4" of snow here on
the valley floor and it just keeps on coming.
I am scheuled to work at the range on Saturday, so I will probaly shoot these pp'd boolits
then.
I have some Alliant 2400, Reloader 7, IMR 4064, and some IMR 4350. I will probably start with the
Reloader 7, and the IMR 4064.
I do not have, at this time a sizer to size the boolits down to bore + .001.
I guess the biggest setback is that I only have about fifty of these boolits. Then, I will have
to start all over again.
I will eventually have to buy a mould.
What would be the best mould for fit in my rifle with all of you fellas expierience?
Jack

Personally, if that's what I had, I'd start with the 4350, and use starting copper-jacketed load data for a bullet of similar weight to your paper-patched ones.

If you had a .308" sizer that would be better than .310" for cores, but what you have might work. 9lb Onionskin is good for shallow rifling where you're only building 5-7 thousandths to final size, but most common rifling depths need a patch that brings the core up at least ten thousandths with two wraps, and 16lb paper does a nice job of that. Most lined notebook paper and copy paper is in this range, but is weak and difficult to wrap wet. It shrinks well and makes a great jacket, though, if you get the hang of wrapping it without twisting the tails.

Lube your paper jackets. Base first size the dried boolits if you can, use heat and light lube pressure to leave a thin coating of lube pressed into the paper.

Gear

[littlejack]

Thank you Gear.
I wrapped these boolits with tracing vellum, but I believe I do have some 9lb. onion skin.
In a perfect world, what kind of accuracy can be had with the high velocity pp'd boolits?
What kind of accuracy are you fellas getting?
I have made a pp mould on my drill press for my 45-70. It did come out very nice. Even had a
slight taper to it. Just one problem, my rifle didn't like it. It would hold about 6" groups at 100
yards. This was with bp loads, and patched to bore diameter.
I do believe I can make one for this Mosin, I can order a blank mould from Lee and go
to work.
Maybe I should just buy an oversized mould and size it down to the proper diameter that is
needed to patch?
What boolit are you fellas getting the best accuracy with?
Jack

[303Guy]

Fixed my typo - thanks. Too many left hand fingers on my right hand!:mrgreen:
It's a 208gr boolit.:Fire:

[littlejack]

Yes sir, I thought that boolit weight was a tad too much.

[pdawg_shooter]

Thank you Gear.
I wrapped these boolits with tracing vellum, but I believe I do have some 9lb. onion skin.
In a perfect world, what kind of accuracy can be had with the high velocity pp'd boolits?
What kind of accuracy are you fellas getting?
I have made a pp mould on my drill press for my 45-70. It did come out very nice. Even had a
slight taper to it. Just one problem, my rifle didn't like it. It would hold about 6" groups at 100
yards. This was with bp loads, and patched to bore diameter.
I do believe I can make one for this Mosin, I can order a blank mould from Lee and go
to work.
Maybe I should just buy an oversized mould and size it down to the proper diameter that is
needed to patch?
What boolit are you fellas getting the best accuracy with?
Jack

PP bullets can equal or better both the velocity and accuracy of jacketed in a given rifle. If the rifle shoots MOA with jacketed it will do so with PPs.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I`ve been working with the RCBS 30 - 180 FN mold pp`ed in my 91/30 pre war Mosin. I wet wrap the as cast boolet with copier paper then let it dry for a day before pushing it thru my .315" sizer after I put a light wipe of JPW on the jacket. I should say the patch is my 3/4 length patch that hasn`t a twist tail. As has been said use starting "J" bullet loads for powder charges. I`ve got a different mold that I haven`t tried as of yet that I had the GC step opened up on making it a flat based 200 gr., Lyman #311679.Robert

[pdawg_shooter]

I prefer grooved bullets for smokeless loads. Size them down to BORE diameter +.001/.0015, patch them up to GROOVE +.001/.003, or as large as will fit the throat.

[littlejack]

Thank you fellas, for all of the input.
I've been on flea-bay lookin for moulds. I would like to stay with a plain base. There is a
Loverin design 319247 single cavity for auction. It would be easy to size it down to .308, but
I was wanting a double cavity. If I was to get that particular mould, it would shoot either
patched or not in my rifle. Now accuracy may be something else.

[geargnasher]

If I were you I'd be looking for a Lyman Loverin style heavy .30 caliber, somewhere around .309-311" and get a sizer made to run them down to about .305" or so on the base bands, then patch back up to fit the throat.

Here's a custom boolit from a mould I had made for my .30 caliber rifles, it drops right at .301" with wheel weight alloy so no sizing required. The front band is bore diameter +.0015" when patched, so it's a "patched bore-rider" of sorts. The second band is tapered to match the ball seat exactly, and the body bands are sized to fit the throat (.311" after wrapping and drying).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea39a08d9d9c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2489)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea4929b42a05.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2491)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094eb7152bb5ccd.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2613)

Aside from the paper rings this particular sketch pad paper leaves at the end of the chamber neck, it's a great load. Note the chronograph numbers and the 1" sticky bulls. The bottom chronograph # was fired at the 25-yard berm offhand to check the chrony and initial POI, I was adjusting a new scope.

Gear

[littlejack]

Thank you Gear for the photos, and advice. Very nice boolit. What kind of groups will it shoot
at the 100 yard mark? Good velocities.
This is the reason that I ask you expierienced P'r patchers. I will follow your advice, and keep
lookin for one of the Lyman Loverin moulds. One will turn up soon, I am sure.
Jack

[geargnasher]

That was a 50-yard target when I was first developing a load for that boolit. If I use the right alloy (ww + 2% tin) that casts large enough it's been shooting a solid 1.5 MOA at 100 for ten shots, although it was dismal a couple of weekends ago with some undersized castings from a water quenched 50/50 WW/pure alloy.

Gear

[littlejack]

Thank you Gear. That sounds good to me.

[nanuk]

Gear, if you could do it again, what changes would you make to that boolit?

fatten it up a bit? change the nose profile?

also, have you tried to do any boolit drop calculations for a BC estimate?

[geargnasher]

I did do it again, I made it a little fatter overall and added one more band to the base, although it protrudes slightly into the case of my '06 now. Depending on the paper, I still get a few flyers. I'm wondering if the patched bore-rider is a good idea after all, but it's tough to get a boolit with any weight to it to chamber in a short throat unless part of it rides the bore. The difficulty seems to be with shucking the patch off of the nose without tipping the boolit. The more of these I shoot, the more I'm leaning toward .002" over-bore slugs to make sure the paper gets slit.

I'm going to go shoot five more with this new boolit here in a bit and I'll report back.

Gear

[pdawg_shooter]

.001 to .0015 for the entire bullet length has always worked good for me. Problem comes when the bore riding nose is the same size, or smaller, than the bore.

[geargnasher]

Well, I did shoot some this afternoon. Same results as last time, three touching and two flyers, this time at 50 yards instead of 100. It's linear so far, even the flyers. I did recover the base wrap from one of them, it had filler packed in underneath the patch, so no telling what's happening to the base that protrudes into the case upon firing.

Gear

[303Guy]

I have this theory that if three out of five work perfectly then the problem lies elsewhere. What you're describing sounds a little familiar re the boolit bases. That is what prompted me to try tail-less patches and rebates - the latter to prevent rifling land impression base feathering. I'm now thinking a slightly reverse tapered base or semi- chamfer might help. You're a clever man, I think you'll take that idea to it's conclusion (even to rejection).

Oh, the tiny rebate also is pretty neat as a tuck away point for the patch base.

Something else, I've found that too sharp a rebate step angle results in unwanted feathering from the mold (with my mold design).

[pdawg_shooter]

Try a powder slow enough to give 100% or a bit more load density, no filler needed. A twisted tail acts like a gas check to protect the base, IMHO. That has been working for me for over 40 years now.

[geargnasher]

.303, that might be a good idea! I can cut a narrower patch and just wrap a band around it, leaving the base bare. I believe that filler and powder was blowing open the base twist and packing debris under the patch before the boolit base got pushed into the neck, thus deforming the base band when it swaged into the neck. A bare base might be better if it sticks into the case.

Gear

[littlejack]

Update:
One of our fellow members, swapped me 100 of his Lyman 311241 boolits to try out.
These are the 155 grain plain base boolit.
He needed some brass, so I sent him a box of once fired Win. 7.62x54.
Anyway, I have about a third of them sized down to .309, and patched back up to .317.
That diameter will chamber easily in my rifle. The groove diameter is .315.
I loaded 10 cases with a 50 grains of IMR 4064.
15 cases charged with 35 grains of Re7.
And lastly, 15 cases with 35 grains of AA 5744.
The short nose section patched at .306 - .307. Just a tad bigger than I wanted.
I may go shoot them tomorrow. I will let you all know what the results is.

I have another mould coming that I won on flea-bay. It is the Lyman 311403. It is a 167
grain plain base boolit. I am looking forward to this one, as it will set out further and be closer to the lands.
I am patching with .002 tracing velum. It is very tough, and when dry is very tight
on the boolits.
From most of the information given, the powders that fill the case to capacity will be the best
for the pp'd boolits. I have three that would qualify. The IMR 4064, the IMR 4350, and the
Hodgdon 4831. I may have to get a bottle of 4895 to try out.
Any suggestions for my loads will be greatly appreciated.
Jack

[littlejack]

Updated update:
I went to the range today and tested the loads listed in my update post.
The loads were shot at 50 yards for effect and accuracy. These boolits were the Lyman
311241 155 grain plain base.
I was very pleased that I didn't have to worry about leading. I checked the bore after the
first two rounds, and it was bright and shiny except for the little powder fouling. The only
dead carcases in the bore was with the AA 5744 powder, and there were only four or five
bodies at most.
1st. group:
35 grains of Re7.
12 shots fired.
After 4 shots, I noticed two groups forming. I started positioning the powder by raising the
muzzle with a cartridge chambered, and the boolits began grouping in one cluster. That
group measured .775" wide by 1.225" tall for seven shots. I thought this was very good, as it was my
first real expierience with "smokeless paper patching".
Velocity unknown. My Lyman 48th edition lists the 314299 200 grain with that 35 grains of
Re7 at 2143 fps.

2nd group:
35 grains of AA 5744 powder.
14 shots fired.
Powder charge positioned.
groups measured 3.750" wide x 4.6" tall. Not good. Velocity unknown.
This powder charge with the Lyman 314299 200 grain boolits is listed at 2153 fps.

3rd group:
50 grains IMR 4064.
5 shots.
Group measured, 1.340" wide x 2.735" tall.
Velocity unknown.

All of the boolits hit the target square with no sign of yaw.
There were no pressure signs noticed. Slightly flattened primers with the 5744 powder, but I
have had this rifle show more pressure signs with my deer loads and jacketed bullets.
No cratured primers, which is common for my rifle.
I thought the IMR 4064 powder would have been the best performer, per the load density of
approximately 95%.
The Re7 loading, turned out to be the best for accuracy in these particular testings.
The patches were just about completely destroyed. There were only small pieces of patch
material left to find on the ground. Nothing bigger than a pencil eraser.
Any input would be greatly appreciated fellas. I only have 50 more of these 311241 boolits
left. I am looking forward to getting my 311403 mould and getting serious.
Jack

[303Guy]

It looks to me like that same Re7 load but with a tuft of Dacron to position the powder is the one to pursue. You may find that a one grain tuft might do better than the bare minimum usually recommended. I'd follow that with wheat germ filler if one hole groups aren't achieved with Dacron.

About Dacron, I'm not sure what I have (it's polyester just like Dacron) but it's finer than the stuff in my old jacket and seems to protect the boolit base but that's the one I use at 1gr.

Wheat germ is a little easier to use - more measurable but does compact with tapping so enough must be used but then that is getting into filler territory rather than powder positioning. Wheat Bran has worked for me and several other folks too.

[littlejack]

Hey Guy:
That is what I was thinking, about the dacron.
I have some dacron from loading light cast loads.
I will also try dropping the powder charge in a couple of batches, to see if there is any
discernable difference in grouping.
I should be getting my 311403 mould this Thursday. I am really looking forward to casting
some boolits with that mould, and doing some R&D.
I also thought about using some IMR 4350 powder, and having a 100% load density. With
the 20" barrell, that would be a flamethrower for sure.
That 4350 powder would probably be better with the heavier 311403 boolit.
Jack

[pdawg_shooter]

The slower the powder the smoother the bullet accelerates, the less deformation you get. I think that is the reason I get the best accuracy from slow powders.

[littlejack]

I received my "new to me" mould today. It is the 311403. I just finished casting a couple hundred boolits with it. It does cast very well, no problems. I would like it to be a two holer though. Oh well I guess we can't have everything.
I did not know it was gong to be a tapered boolit design. The first three driving bands below the crimp groove measure .297. The fourth band mics at .299. The fifth band is .303, and the base measures .313.
I have some 100% cotton rag paper, that mics at .0025. This should put me very close to where I want to be, to fit in a chambered cartridge, if I size the boolit down to .309 first.
Can any of you give an accoutnin g of the tapered boolits, as compared t a straight boolit with no taper. What are things to watch for with the tapered boolit?
It seems to me, that the tapered boolits would allow themselves to get centered in the bore very easily. Kind of guiding themselves with the taper.
I will start making paper tomorrow. The taper will cause things to be more time consuming. I will make a drawing like 303Guy did, and see if I can get it copied or duplicated.
I do not have the CAD, but I will just roll the boolit on the paper, and it will make it's own radius. I will just have to get the length and angle the ends. Sounds easy, HUH?
Jack

[303Guy]

PM me the dimensions ,nose diameter, base diameter and distance between them and I'll do a patch profile on CAD for you and see how that compares with yours.

[littlejack]

Hey Guy:
I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. I've been busy doing this and that. You know.
Anyway, I have some measurements for you. First, I will give you my patch dimensions.
With the patch lying flat, concave up:
TOP.
Left end, long point to right end, short point is 1.865.

Bottom: Convex down:
Left end short point to right end long point, 1.975.
Width of patch is .835.

The dimensions of the sized boolit are:
Top band dimension above crimp groove, approximately .298.
Bottom band sized to .309.
Patch width is .835.

I have some patched boolits loaded and ready for the range, hopefully tomorrow.
I patched these with lined .003 notebook paper. The thickness is about right, but I do not
like the paper that well. It is very fragile when wet. It looses any strength that it had when it
gets wet.
This will be a first with this mould and this boolit design, being tapered boolits. I am hoping
that the taper will allow them to center up in the bore.
If my figuring is correct, I have seated the boolit into the neck approximately .200. The base/
band of .309, will be the only section of the boolit to fit tight in the neck. This will allow the
smaller tapered part of the boolit forward of the base to pivot ON the base, and get a good
position in the lead. The lead in my particular rifle, is tapered per my impact cast.
I am really lookin forward to seeing the results of this boolit on paper.
I guess that this anticipation, is what keeps us all testing for something better.
Jack

[303Guy]

The dimensions of the sized boolit are:
Top band dimension above crimp groove, approximately .298.
Bottom band sized to .309.
Patch width is .835.
littlejack
Just to clarify, does the patch go past the top band? I need the boolit diameter at the top end of the patch and the distance from the patch top position to the boolit base. I'll then add the overhang. In the meantime, I'll use your patch dimensions.

Here is the prototype patch outline (a screen snip), three in a row laid out so they can be cut by scissor simply following the curve.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/littlejackshf.png

Once finished I'll send you a printer file which you would then simply print out on the paper of your choice.

[littlejack]

Guy:
The patch goes approximately .050 above the top band, and the diameter at that point is
.298. The measurement from there to the base is .730.
I went to the range and shot today, I will post results tomorrow.
Thank you for your time and the CAD work on my patch. Much abliged.
Jack

[littlejack]

Range update:
I loaded up pp'd boolits per my 5-18 post.
To make a long story short, I had the best grouping and accuracy with less than max loads.
These boolits weigh in at 170 grains patched. Patched and unsized at the base band, the
diameter is .3185, with .003 notebook paper.
Cases were fireformed and unsized, with approximately .002 neck tension.
Groups were at 50 yards.
The best for grouping was the 32 grains of Re7, with dacron filler.
The two groups:
One group was five shots at 1.4, and the other was five shots 1.925 respectfully.
The boolit holes looked to show a little tipping.
The last of the three best groups was, 45 grains of IMR 4064.
This group was seven shots at 2.065, some slight boolit tipping.
I did not chrony these loads, so I have no idea how fast they were going.
I do want to get some stronger paper, as I think this notebook paper is too fragile. When
wet, it just falls apart with little force.
The higher powder charged loads just scattered the groups out. I will try some lower
charged loads and maybe stop the boolit tipping issue, and tighten up the groups.
Recommendations will be appreciated.
Jack

[Nobade]

You might try slower powder as well. My own M-N shoots quite well with IMR 4350 + filler and also with IMR 7383 + filler. And I do use lined notebook paper for patching it, I need the thick patch to get my .303" boolit up to .315".

[littlejack]

Nobade:
I did neglect to mention that one of my loads was a maximum charge of IMR 4350. The grouping was very large. I will however, load some more with the same powder with a lesser amount.
The holes in the target did show boolit tipping.
Which boolit are you using, and what kind of groups are you getting, at what range.
I would feel a lot better if the greoups that I shot were at 100 yards rather than 50.
Can you give an estimate of the velocity you are getting. This may give me something to
shoot for,"pardon the pun".
Jack

[Nobade]

I have shot quite a few different boolits through, but the best is something with a lot of body and not much nose, like #311466 or #311041. Cast from air cooled wheelweights, sized to .303", patched with printer paper or lined notebook paper, lubed with vaseline/beeswax mix, run through a .314" size die, for a .315" finished size. Cases unsized, 4350 or 7383 enough to make room for .5cc-.7cc filler - either Cream 'o' wheat or BPI buffer. Boolits hand seated, powder and filler set the seating depth. A firm press into the rifling but not so much it's hard to close the bolt. I haven't chronographed any (chrono is broken) but the 170gr. #311041 will track to the sights out to 750 yds, and it's not hard to keep hitting a 12 inch square plate at 500M off the bench. Groups at 100 yds. run about 1 1/2 inches, mostly limited by my lack of being able to see the sights any better than I do.

When I got this rifle it appeared to be new - arsenal refinished. Apparently it was test fired and then stored away, because under a layer of fouling there was a nasty pitted barrel. I firelapped it extensively, and shot it with many paper patched boolits rubbed in lapping compound. It took about 2 years, but eventually the barrel smoothed out enough so that it started to shoot. The more I shot it with patched boolits the better it got, until finally I had an "interesting" rifle. I would take it out every time I went to the range and fire 10 rounds or so through it. Funny at first, the berm wasn't in much danger from me. People wondered why I bothered. But it was worth keeping at it, now they can't believe how well it works!

[littlejack]

My 311403 has less nose than you 311041.
I have been lubing with Emmerts revised recipe w/5% lanolin.
My boolit has a wide base drive band, and the rest of the shank looks like a Loverin design.
My M44 only has a 20" bbl. I bought it at a gun show a few years back.
All of the numbers matched, it looked as though it had never been issued, and the bore is
pristine.
It will group 150 grain Hornaday .312 bullets in 1.25" all day at 100 yards. I also have some
180 grain .312 jacketed rn (maker unknown) that will group better than the Hornadays.
So, I know this rifle will shoot very well, it is just a matter of finding what it preferes in a
cast pp'd boolit.
I still have plenty of lead, plenty of paper, and plenty of confidence in the rifle.
Jack

[truckjohn]

How do you get them to chamber with a 0.317" bullet?
The MN's I have seem to have pretty tight necks... and I have trouble with anything over about 0.314".

Thanks

[littlejack]

truckjohn:
I have no problems at all chambering the rounds. They go right in and the bolt closes
without any problem.
I have made an impact casting, and the results show that the chamber is excessive in it's
dimensions.
Jack

[littlejack]

I took some measurements on the impact cast, and they are as follows.
Outside neck diameter: .341. This measurment runs .150 ahead of the end of the case.
Taper to the throat is .075 in length, and approximately 10*.
At the end of the taper, the bore is .315, the groove is .318.
Ahead of that .318 dimension .500, the bore is .310, and the groove is .315.
That is all of the lead that is exposed on the impact cast to mic.
So, the throat is tapered, and is also very roomy for the oversized pp'd boolit that I am
chambering.
I am looking for some .0035 paper to try in this rifle. I will build a dummy round with that
paper, to see how well it chambers in the rifle.
Jack

[303Guy]

Sounds like a perfect paper patch throat and bore! I haven't done your patch profile yet - tax returns and having to move. Bother!

It seems like your taper boolit is about right profile wise. This is where a heavier boolit comes in - it fills the throat.

Now, I want to know why such a large throat and bore is shooting those 150gr .312's so well? Tapered bore maybe?

[littlejack]

I've wondered that myself Guy.
But, I am going to take it as it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Jack