New Lyman 311299 mold returned, undersized.

[catboat]

This should be filed in the "for what it is worth" area.

I recently bought a new Lyman 311299 2 cavity bullet mold from opticsplanet. I casted until I got 10 good bullets made (wheelweight alloy, air cooled).

Nose diameter ran .296 - .298+". Ring/max diameter at base ran .307" - .309". Bullets were slightly oval.

Bullet mold was returned (optics planet paid for return freight) for being undersized.

Disappointed in Lyman. On the other hand, opticsplanet.com was wonderful to work with.

[geargnasher]

Sounds familiar. Sorry about the luck, next time get an RCBS or custom mould instead.

Gear

[runfiverun]

sounds typical.
i guess 311 means 308 now.
you used to have to order a 311 undersized to get 308 on the body and 299 on the nose.

[Larry Gibson]

(wheelweight alloy, air cooled)

Before I would arbitrarely blame the mould I would;

Add 2% tin the WWs

Make sure the alloy was at 700 - 750 degrees

Open the spout adjustment so the alloy comes out hot and fast getting into that long skinny cavity as quickly as possible

Cast fast enough so the bullets were just short of really frosty

If the the bullets didn't come out at .311x.299 then I'd talk with Lyman. Lyman moulds are spec'd to cast nominal size with #2 alloy not WWs. WWs alone are short on tin, adding the 2% tin makes for a much better ternary alloy, brings the alloy closer to #2 alloy, it will cast with better fill out, have a higher BHN and in general make a much better alloy while casting much better bullets.

Larry Gibson

[Huntducks]

Larry

Well said.

I would also try pressure pouring them faster fill out.

[geargnasher]

Larry, you aren't going to make it cast .311" with straight linotype no matter what technique you use if it's .307" on the skinny side with straight WW. This is another fine example of what I've been telling you about with the cavity halves being shifted slightly and the cherries being worn out, in this instance the typical .001" shift that makes the boolit .002" out of round and unshootable due to the two gas channels left on the boolit after sizing, even if the thing casts large enough to size part of it at all. Even if the cavities were lined up, the boolit would still be .308".

A .311" boolit mould should cast at least .3105" with straight WW and .2995" on the bore-riding part if it's sized to cast .311" minimum with Lyman #2. Lyman just sucks these days, period.

Gear

[Hardcast416taylor]

Well the #314299 mold I bought new about a year and a half ago was definately casting oval undersized bullets. I sent the mold and sample bullets made of different alloys back to Lyman. About 5 or 6 weeks later I got my mold back. It had been re-bored to correct casting diameter, sample cast bullets were included along with a letter outlining what was done to make the mold right.Robert

[Larry Gibson]

Folks

I never said we weren't going to ever have a problem with Lyman moulds or any others.

Essentially what I said was to make sure you're casting correctly (many don't and want to blame the equipment) and make sure you're using a correct alloy. This goes for any makers moulds, even the spendy custom ones.

And I do beg to differ gear, I can screw things up and easily cast bullets .002 - .003 undersize bullet from any mould. I can do it on demand as I know what causes it. It is not difficult to do at all.

Yes, undersized moulds can be the cause of undersize bullets but let's make sure it's not "pilot error" before we blame the airplane. BTW; I've not received the Lyman mould you said you were sending to test for such?

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

They're packed up and ready to go, I just haven't made it to the PO. Part of me wonders why bother, I know how one of them casts, and it isn't "pilot error". There seems to be a distictly lower incidence of complaints with other manufacturers, even Lee. The ONLY undersized or mis-machined moulds I've ever had were Lyman. The other one I'm sending is brand-new, once I saw how badly the cavities were shifted and did a quick ID concentricity check with my inside calipers on the base band, I didn't even bother cleaning the cosmoline off of it. I'm sure you'll be able to make perfect boolits with them, though, as advertised size plus a thousandth with pure lead! :kidding:

I'm going to the PO tomorrow on some other business, I'll get them shipped to you so you can see what's up.

Gear

[12DMAX]

About 5 or 6 weeks later I got my mold back. It had been re-bored to correct casting diameter, sample cast bullets were included along with a letter outlining what was done to make the mold right.Robert

Maybe Lyman should send sample bullets with each new mold they sell, this would surely remove any :veryconfu as to ones technique.

[beagle]

Amen to that practice. It would clean up their Quality section really fast.

You guys ought to see the SC mould that's on my bench right now. It's a Lyman and looks like someone pulled the cherry out about one lube groove on one side. Weirdest thing you ever saw. It's old but I kind of keep it around for chuckles./beagle


Maybe Lyman should send sample bullets with each new mold they sell, this would surely remove any :veryconfu as to ones technique.

[stocker]

I have an old Ideal 311299 single cavity. I just went down and cast about 60 boolits. They mic. at .3149-.3151. The smaller ones appear to have been the first half dozen cast, after that they all are greater than .315. Oh how I wish it was at least a 2 cavity.

[runfiverun]

Maybe Lyman should send sample bullets with each new mold they sell, this would surely remove any :veryconfu as to ones technique.

magma engineering does that, they also tell you what range [spec] thier boolit molds will cast in.
with thier 2/6/92 alloy.
i have never.ever,ever, had one of thier molds that cast small with ww alloy.
i wonder how the hard,undersized commercial thing ever got started when they have enough diameter to make things bigger from the start.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Well the #314299 mold I bought new about a year and a half ago was definately casting oval undersized bullets. I sent the mold and sample bullets made of different alloys back to Lyman. About 5 or 6 weeks later I got my mold back. It had been re-bored to correct casting diameter, sample cast bullets were included along with a letter outlining what was done to make the mold right.Robert

Did you send it to anyone in particular?
I have an old timer friend who has a new one of these molds & they too came out at .309 (he's been casting for 50+ years, it aint him)
He called Lyman and his words where, I got the "deer in the headlights look" over the phone- no satisfaction.
What did you do / say to get them to correct the mold?

[Hardcast416taylor]

Jim. If I remember the procedure correctly. I talked to a gal at customer services and described the mold problem. She said to return it to them attention customer services. I would try calling them again to verify my dated info on returns. I had a similar problem with a 6.5 mold of theirs only last fall. I returned it with the same letter of explanation of what was wrong, oval bullets and nowhere near .264" cast diameter. They just plain sent me a new mold.Robert

[excess650]

This should be filed in the "for what it is worth" area.

I recently bought a new Lyman 311299 2 cavity bullet mold from opticsplanet. I casted until I got 10 good bullets made (wheelweight alloy, air cooled).

Nose diameter ran .296 - .298+". Ring/max diameter at base ran .307" - .309". Bullets were slightly oval.

Bullet mold was returned (optics planet paid for return freight) for being undersized.

Disappointed in Lyman. On the other hand, opticsplanet.com was wonderful to work with.

Someone here would have loved to have that for a tight K31. My own 311299 casts .309-.310" and will be used in my K31.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My 311299 cast .296/.308 with WW. I traded it for a 314299, which drops at .312/.302 with WW.

I was under the impression that that mould was designed for Linotype?

I got a NOE 311299 which is finicky to operate but drops at .2996/.311. I need to actually heed what Larry says in nearly every post on casting he makes, and add 2% tin to the mix.

Osmosis is a wonderful thing! Eventually everything sinks in.

One of the problems with making moulds the way Lymans shop does is the inevitable shifting of the blocks in the fixture when they are undersized on the exterior dimensions or not chucked right.

These blocks are machined in a fixture that essentially closes the two halves of the mould onto the rotating cherry. If there is offset when they are finished then one or the other block moved before it was totally closed, and the damage was too great to clean up when the blocks got totally closed.

This is why Lathe Bored or the new method of Circular Interpolating and undersized cherry in closed blocks is a better way to make moulds.

Miha's method of doing one half of the mould at a time and indexing them together astounds me. The margin for error is exactly ZERO. I personally don't know how he does it. His process would give me fits if I were doing it.

I'm pressing Al Nelson at NOE to do a run of .311299's in Brass. I think that would be the ultimate mould for this boolit.

I am invoking peer pressure here Al !

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

Lyman moulds have been designed around #2 alloy for years. Had you added 2% tin to those WWs they probably would have cast to nominal diameter.

Larry Gibson

[Shooternz]

I have the opposite problem my mould is oversize it's a single cavity 311291 casts
boolits .299"x .315" I size them .314" for .303's they shoot rather well even sized to
.309",
Since I have started buying custom moulds I have a lot less problems casting decent
boolits most of the moulds I have are Lyman and most cast undersize I have tried adding tin to my WW's it does help a little,
I cast .358" bullets for a friend using his moulds a 358627 which casts .359" and a 358311 which casts .356" I cast with both moulds at the same time so the temp and mix are the same,
I will only buy Lyman moulds if they real cheap or some one else is paying.
Robert.

[HangFireW8]

Lyman moulds have been designed around #2 alloy for years. Had you added 2% tin to those WWs they probably would have cast to nominal diameter.


I don't have those molds in hand so I can't dispute that statement. I can only add my experience. While I own a bunch of Lyman molds, only two are recent (2010-2011) production.

My first a 311041 cast at .3090" and below, when the halves lined up. I returned it, they set the alignment pins out further and lapped it out, according to them, "to .311". Since then it has never produced a boolit larger than .3100".

The second new mold is a 323470. It produces boolits at .3240" and below except for the bottom band which can be as large as .3245".

I use a Mitutoyo .0001" blade micrometer 3 or more days after casting, and yes, some of my alloys have plenty of tin, some as much as 5% (old Lyman #2 alloy). I have 3 times as many Ideal and Lyman older molds from the 1930's to the 60's, none of them cast as little as .001" over nominal.

I cannot complain too much because each of the new molds produced boolits around .001" over ideal bore diameter- well, the 311041 should have been labeled 308041.. However my two primary cast boolit slingers, for which I purchased these molds, are a 30/06 FN Mauser with a perfect .3100" bore, and an old Turk Mauser with a not-so-perfect, but reasonably consistent .325" bore. I found accuracy in both rifles when I went to Lee molds.

I might buy more new Lyman molds if I am casting for a rifle of exact nominal diameter. However I primarily cast to find accuracy in rifles like oversized Mausers and MicroGroove Marlins; for these, I need something more oversized than .001".

There it is, one person's experience, take it or leave it.

HF

[geargnasher]

For the record, I'd like to quote some numbers straight from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd edition, pp. 58.

311291, predicted as-cast characteristics:

Pure lead: 176 grains, .3095"
Wheel weights (95.5, 4, .5*): 173 grains, .3100"
#2 alloy: 168 grains, .3105"
Linotype alloy: 163 grains, 3108"
*my addition, taken from the alloy page of the same book.

Apparently they've lied from the beginning, that mould should have borne the designation 310291"

But what do they care, they always show a sized diameter of .308" in their loading data for some reason.

So, Larry Gibson, how is two percent tin going to make a .309" boolit from wheel weights into a .311", when with Lyman's chart adding 4.5% and another 1% antimony only gained .0005"?

Gear

[runfiverun]

i am a big fan of lymans designs.
and i am a big detractor of them recently.
they need to fix things, i really don't care if they have to buy more cherries or not.
if rcbs would clue in to more cavities they would see a bunch of my money,and a bunch of other guy's too.
there was a serious attempt by myself,ken molholland,and airc pat iffland to find a maker to do 4 cav. rifle, steel molds, in several rcbs and lyman designs.
we had a good pledge pool of startup money together, but no takers on the project.

i seriously have a problem with a company with that much history that cannot make a product thats been available for ,what 100 years? better than they could 60-70 years ago.

[geargnasher]

Accurate can make one up to three cavities in iron, but you have the .180" minimum meplat and .30 caliber limitation.

Gear