Bought an old one today.

[Ben]

I was at the Birmingham Gun Show today, I looked through a box of , Lyman, Ideal, RCBS, & SAECO used bullet molds ( tempting , too tempting when I see a whole box full of molds - - - I've got to stop and look at every one of them ....sound familiar ? ? ?) .

Found this one in the box ( The IDEAL 358246 , 147 gr. RN) and it really caught my eye , a little beleaguered on the outside, but the inside looked real nice, so I bought it. Interesting feature of RN style for 38 and 357 Mag. and on the other end of the same blocks, a light weight full wad cutter design. No time to cast with it today. Maybe 1st of the week , I can run a few.

I placed an 82 gr. Lee 38'357 wad-cutter in the photo for comparison. Looks like this one is going to be even lighter than 82 grs. Yes.....I know, multi - bullet loads ....I'm ahead of you , I've already thought of it !

I wonder if this ( double cav. work in a single cav. block ) work was done by IDEAL or done by someone else at a later date ? ?

Ben

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/DSCN2387.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/DSCN2386.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/005-14.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/003-22.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/002-29.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-21.jpg

[MtGun44]

Now that is NEAT! It looks like Lyman did that at the factory, too.

I'll be waiting for your report on how that "collar button" shoots. What do you
figure, maybe 50-60 grains?

Bill

[Chihuahua Floyd]

got a socond sprue plate?
Cast two at a time?
Very interesting mold.
CF

[Ben]

Bill,

I'm with you, I'm thinking around 60 grs. or so ? ?
That would be some cheap shooting. I wonder what load in a 38 Spec. might offer promise ?

Ben

[Sgt Petro]

That is pretty slick!
Keep us posted after ya cast a few.

[stubshaft]

Unique mold. Good find.

[Reg]

I might be mistaken but I think that light weight wad cutter was part of a concept where you would load up to three at a time-- kinda like a multiple warhead !!
There was talk of it back in the 60's and have no doubt it might have come up even earlyer.
I took a stock lyman wadcutter mold ( forget the number) a couple years back and milled it down to about what you see in the picture and played with loading 3 at a time. Would have to look up the load but as I recall it really worked well up to about 20 yards where they were about 3 inches or so apart. Just flat deadly and point of aim at 10 yards where all 3 were in a 3 inch circle.
Also, it was common that Lyman would make up such molds on request. Have seen several other examples.
I found that tumble lubing with 45-45-10 took care of the lubing problem and they loaded about as quick as anything else in a single stage press. Give it a try. They work better than you think.

:drinks:

[plmitch]

Very neat looking mold you got there.

[DLCTEX]

I did a double take on that one! I'm thinking that I could make an adjustable length one from an old mould I have. Or a group buy on a lee six cav.

[MikeS]

As short as that boolit is, I bet you could stuff 3 of them into a 38 Special case, or 4 of them in a 357 Mag! That would be an interesting load for sure! Or maybe the idea was to load it behind the roundnose boolit on the other side of the mould?

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_0112.jpg Ben, I made this one up a while ago from a standard wadcutter mold. I just ran an end mill down from the non sprue plate side, made a plug, and screwed it in. The plug acts like one big alignment pin as a bonus.. :) I never got much for accuracy out of it, but stacked ones were fun to play with.

[Ben]

Thanks for all your input, you have me thinking now.

I'm anxious to cast a few and see what dia. and weight they are.

Ben

[beagle]

Yes, that was a Kent Bellah project way back in conjunction with H & G moulds in th e.38 Special and .357 Mag. Worked pretty good but he had some seperation problems with that design./beagle


I might be mistaken but I think that light weight wad cutter was part of a concept where you would load up to three at a time-- kinda like a multiple warhead !!
There was talk of it back in the 60's and have no doubt it might have come up even earlyer.
I took a stock lyman wadcutter mold ( forget the number) a couple years back and milled it down to about what you see in the picture and played with loading 3 at a time. Would have to look up the load but as I recall it really worked well up to about 20 yards where they were about 3 inches or so apart. Just flat deadly and point of aim at 10 yards where all 3 were in a 3 inch circle.
Also, it was common that Lyman would make up such molds on request. Have seen several other examples.
I found that tumble lubing with 45-45-10 took care of the lubing problem and they loaded about as quick as anything else in a single stage press. Give it a try. They work better than you think.

:drinks:

[Ben]

he had some seperation problems with that design./beagle



Can you provide more info as to " separation problems ".

Ben

[Reg]

Kent Bellah, now there is a name from some time ago.

Now separation--- are you speaking that the bullets tend to go their separate ways ? Yes, they do. Thats what I found.
Went and looked at my records and @ 5 yds. they had .625 seperation, @ 10 yds. they had 1.00 seperation and @ 15 yds. they had opened up to 3.150. I did not test beyond that range.
With the 45-45-10, there was no signs of leading or tipping at the tested range.
I was using Bullseye and not a real hot load at that and while accuracy was actually quite good at the tested ranges it did show lacking for penetration. Had a old junk fiberglass boat transom on the burn pile and fired several rounds into it for effect.
Each hit showed about 1 1/4" of area of concussion but no penetrated to any depth. All hits were recovered, they just flattened out and fell straight down and the lead recovery was almost 100 percent. Do keep in mind that transom was solid fiberglass and marine plywood and solid as heck. A better test would be with 1" pine boards or oiled sawdust.
Testing was in a Featherweight Chiefs Special and recoil was not a problem.
I loaded several boxs of this load for a lady friend to use in her purse hide out and she seemed most impressed with the fact that at across the room ranges she actually doubled her hit count. Confidence is the name of the game. Only thing that might be open to question might be the penetration but even though it didn't go deep into that old transom it still had more than enough wop to it to make one sit down and think about their future.

:drinks:

[Reg]

Beagle, you don't happen to recall the month and year of that article do you ?
Thanks
Reg

[fcvan]

20+ years ago, I made small .358 wadcutters in either 25gr or 40gr weights. I did this after reading the performance specs for Multiple Munitions Incorporated. I would load 2, 3, or 4 wadcutters and work up loads carefully. The result was a pattern of about 2-3 inches from 5 yards.

I made the wadcutters with a Lee 158gr single cavity hollow point mold. I cut down a cast boolits and seated a gas check to where the check rested into driving band. This shortened boolit effectively made the mold drop 25gr or 40gr wadcutters, depending on the length of the cut down spacer I used. The cut down boolit rested on the HP pin and I carefully closed the mold with the spacer. These were tumble lubed and loaded into .38 or .357 cases. I often used 2 25 grain wadcutters underneath a Lee 105 gr SWC. It was fun shooting but not something I have done in quite some time. Frank

[beagle]

As I recall, he had problems with two bullets "sticking" together. His solution was to seperate each bullet with several particles of Bullseye and then they seperated.

Of all the two and three ball loads I've loaded with round balls, I haven't encountered this problem and I looked for it after reading that article years ago./beagle


he had some seperation problems with that design./beagle



Can you provide more info as to " separation problems ".

Ben

[beagle]

I'm thinking the early 60s on that article./beagle


Beagle, you don't happen to recall the month and year of that article do you ?
Thanks
Reg

[Ben]

OK, makes sense....Many thanks,
Ben

[6.5 mike]

Darn Ben, you just keep finding the neat stuff :drinks:. What weight is the other boolit ?

[Ben]

Rats, Rats, Rats , the little wadcutter cast out way too small, .350 ", weighing exactly 50 grs.. Unless you're wanting a collar button for a 348 Win., as far as I'm concerned, the little wadcutter is useless for my applications loading the 38 Spec. and 357 Mag.

Oh well,------ the round nose cast wonderfully and has near perfect dimensions.

A Photo of the little wadcutter :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-22.jpg

Here is the round nose. 150 grs. on my scales. Falls from the mold at a nice round .3595". Sizes to .3585 " with all of the outside of the bands lightly polished. Just about perfect for my use ! !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/004-22.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/005-15.jpg

This puppy has generous lube grooves , will most likely only lube the bottom groove :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/006-18.jpg

I'm going to also try it in my 38 Spec. Marlin CBC. I'm leary of bullets that could
set off primers in the mag tube, but this one looks safe enough, what do you think ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/007-13.jpg

[DLCTEX]

I wouldn't be afraid of it in a mag tube. Shame about the little wadcutter. I was looking forward to you loading some up and testing them. I will have to modify a mould and do some of my own. My 38 is on loan to my student son for home defense, so I'll have to swap him something else for a while. I'm thinking 3 of those little boolits would be the ticket for apartment encounters.

[Ben]

Yep, more holes to bleed out of.

They would be much less likely to penetrate walls and kill or injure someone else in the next apt.

Ben

[9.3X62AL]

I have a similar mould to the "second" cavity of Ben's unique find--Lyman #358101. I got it from a member here at a past NCBS meeting. Weight in WW metal is about 75 grains, and my plan for the castings was to load up some 2-fers for Buckshot to try in his much-adored K-38, in order to have him scratching his head a bit at the 10 holes downrange after 5 shots. I didn't have the heart to cause him that sort of grief, though. He has to put up with a lot of (blank) from me already, he didn't need that.

I did load up some 2-fers in 38 Special and 357 Magnum, though. Atop 3.0 grains of WW-231, most of the boolits seperated at 25 yards, and ran 5"-8" groups. All hits seemed to be straight-on. In the 357, I ran a moderate load (7.0 x Herco), and the spreads at 25 yards opened up--12" to 15", with some edge-hits and ellipticals. The results reminded me of a caveat shared with me at a young age by an old trap shooter at Inland F&G regarding shotshell charge velocity--"The harder you kick it in the a--, the wider and faster it will spread". Might be something to that, after all.

[6.5 mike]

There's got to be a way to open it up, Buckshot HELP.

[beagle]

Yeah Ben, have one of the guys take a boring bar and open it to about .360"./beagle

[dubber123]

Yeah Ben, have one of the guys take a boring bar and open it to about .360"./beagle

Only .005" per side, there should still be plenty of lube capacity left.

[STP22]

If I remember correctly, Dean Grennell played with a Lyman button mould for .38, but it sure wasn`t that small as cast. Yet, I would have snatched that one as well.;)

Regards,

Scott

[theperfessor]

Well, if you were going to use them in something other than a revolver you could paper wrap three or four together to about .360". Close up pest load for a .358 maybe?

[MikeS]

Considering that the little wadcutter has flat faces on both sides, why not take a few of them, and squeeze them in a vice? That should do 2 things, first it should fatten them enough that you could size them to .358 (or whatever you need to size them to), and in the process it will make them shorter, so maybe you could fit more of them into a 38 case! Heck, at 50gr you could fit 4 of them in a 38 case, that would make a very interesting self defense load!

[CWME]

Why would someone make a WC at .350?

[scrapcan]

Ben,

Did you get good fillout on that little WC? it looks like you did not have good fill out on the ones pictured. Did you try to run the melt real hot or add some tin? I think you might get some more diameter out of it if you can cast it hotter or get the mould up to temp.

[Ben]

manleyjt

Photos are misleading.

The top portion of the W/C has a rounded bevel on it. I think the rounded portion of the bullet is what you are seeing in the photo that concerns you. I noticed that also in the photo.

The sprue cut ends are filled out well.

Mold has been traded to NoZombies as of this a.m.

Thanks,

Ben

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_4414f68b08bb359b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4511)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-22.jpg

[nanuk]

I think it would fall at .350 to be seated very deep in a case, with the RN on top...

it would need to be undersized so as to not bulge the case, when seated deep

[Ben]

nanuk

You may be onto something there.

Ben