Black Powder verses Substitutes

[DCP]

I am trying to figure out what to use in my .32 Crockett

It will be using 3ffg

Does any one know anything about the following
Did I miss any.

What is best and why?

Black Powder

DIAMONDBACK POWDERS
ELEPHANT POWDERS (out of business)
SCHUETZEN POWDERS
SWISS POWDERS
GOEX


Substitutes

Pyrodex, , and Triple Seven
Black Mag3 (Cant find it)
American Pioneer Powder

[TXGunNut]

You overlooked KIK BP, some folks around here like it and I'm liking my early results.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I used triple 7 FFF in mine and liked it.i also used Goex FFF and it worked as well.

George

[Tatume]

I use a lot of Diamondback FFFg black powder. It's inexpensive, and works very well. I do not clean between shots, and frequently shoot all morning. I've used lots of Elephant, Goex and Swiss, and generally find them to be comparable to Diamondback. Elephant is no longer available, but Diamondback is manufactured by Elephant Industria Quimica (EIQ) in Brazil. The machinery is upgraded following an explosion at the Elephant plant. I've never tried KIK, but hear it is good powder too. Swiss is generally regarded as the best of the black powders, but at double the cost of Diamondback, I can't afford it. My experience is that modern black powder is all good, so don't let claims of superiority concern you too much.

Hodgdon Triple Seven is a good substitute and it cleans up very nicely. I've used a lot of it, but the cost is prohibitive (more than Swiss). I suggest you avoid Pyrodex, as it is hard to clean and will ruin barrels.

Take care, Tom

[mooman76]

I've used GOEX and Pyrodex P. Both work fine. Some don't like pyrodex but it does work, just not a sensitive as the real stuff. I use the real stuff since I can get it now but have no problem using the substitutes.

[Mike Brooks]

I like swiss, burns super clean.

[frontier gander]

20gr Pyrodex P or Goex 3f will be a great choice.

[451 Pete]

DCP,
I agree with Mike Brooks on the choice of Swiss for a couple of reasons. A small bore rifle tends to foul quicker than the larger bore's do so a cleaner burning powder can allow you more shots before cleaning or having to wipe out the bore ( a plus to me when you are hunting ) . Also your .32 cal. rifle will only be using 20 - 30 grains of powder per shot so even at the higher price of the Swiss you will still get 250 - 350 shots per pound of powder. That is a lot of shooting with a muzzle loader.

Just my thoughts .... Pete

[Boerrancher]

Over the years I have tried all the substitutes and have found that for me, all of their claims of being better than black has not held up. Now my guns are fed a steady diet of Goex and schuetzen powder. I use 20 grains of Goex on a 310 dia PRB. At 30 yards it will cut bullet holes all day long if you do your part. I have also burnt over 1/4 lb of 3FG Goex through it with out having to swab the bore and the last ball loaded as easy as the first, and shot as accurately as the first. I tried a 30 grain load accuracy went down considerably. Probably not enough to miss a squirrel at 30 yards, but it was by far a great deal worse than cutting bullet holes like with the 20gr load. The biggest issue you will have as far as finding an accurate load will by your loading process. Just the slightest amount of pressure change when seating the ball will change the point of impact. I solved this problem by gripping the muzzle of the gun and using my thumb to push the ball the last couple inches and seat it. You also can't get rough seating the ball as those little guys are easily deformed and a deformed ball will not shoot well.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Alan]

Some of the substitutes have corrosion issues, esp. Pyrodex. I know there are people on this site and others that claim they have shot it for years w/ no problems, but that does not alter the fact that it is far, FAR more corrosive than BP. And it produces nasty, sharp, jagged pits. BP is inert below about 30% humidity. I forgot a spare cylinder for my Pietta .44 Remmy for about 2 years, in a very nasty state. It was sealed in a ziplock baggie, and cleaned right up with no pitting, and the nipples weren't even stuck.

[Fly]

I just make my own.
Fly

[mooman76]

Some of the substitutes have corrosion issues, esp. Pyrodex. I know there are people on this site and others that claim they have shot it for years w/ no problems, but that does not alter the fact that it is far, FAR more corrosive than BP. And it produces nasty, sharp, jagged pits. BP is inert below about 30% humidity. I forgot a spare cylinder for my Pietta .44 Remmy for about 2 years, in a very nasty state. It was sealed in a ziplock baggie, and cleaned right up with no pitting, and the nipples weren't even stuck.

I have shot Pyrodex for years and had no problems. I'm not trying to dispute your claim I'm just saying I always clean my gun same day I shoot and as long as it is properly cleaned it's shouldn't be a problem. I now shoot the real stuff because it is available to me now and I have some pyrodex left and will shoot it up in time. I prefer the real stuff over the fake but if I can't get it again I'll buy what I can get or maybe some day I'll break down and try my hand at making my own.

[frontier gander]

the whole pyrodex is more corrosive deal is just an old wives tale. After you shoot any blackpowder firearm, you clean it afterward! Being lazy doesnt mean you have the right to run around calling such and such bad because you fudged up and forgot to clean it.

[x101airborne]

the whole pyrodex is more corrosive deal is just an old wives tale. After you shoot any blackpowder firearm, you clean it afterward! Being lazy doesnt mean you have the right to run around calling such and such bad because you fudged up and forgot to clean it.


I absolutely agree with the statement about laziness.... but I have used BP subs and the real thing. I can definatively say that Pyrodex does foul quicker than Goex. I am not saying that it may or may not have it's place, but it takes me 12 patches of water with a little soap to clean up pyrodex. It takes me 3 patches with the same mixture to clean up Goex. It is not an opinion, it is a fact in my experience. Corrosive...... I dont know. Harder to clean and quicker to foul, definately.

[waksupi]

Get some carbon steel flat stock. Grind one side clean. Flash a pile of black powder, and a same size pile of Pyrodex on the other end. Let set. Report back.

[Tatume]

Get some carbon steel flat stock. Grind one side clean. Flash a pile of black powder, and a same size pile of Pyrodex on the other end. Clean. Let set. Report back.

[frontier gander]

Get some carbon steel flat stock. Grind one side clean. Flash a pile of black powder, and a same size pile of Pyrodex on the other end. Let set. Report back.

Again what does it prove? That you got lazy and forgot to clean the gun and now its rusted/corroded. :coffee:

[brad925]

Again what does it prove? That you got lazy and forgot to clean the gun and now its rusted/corroded. :coffee:

Gotta agree with FG on this one. Pyrodex is a different beast just like smokeless is different from BP. Where i am BP is difficult to get so we make do. Watched a video on You Tube the other day and the guy on there said a vinigar solution is recommended by Hodgons for clean up when using Pyrodex to neutralize the salts created by pyrodex. Even Windex with vinigar can be used. Always used soap and water before with no problems but not opposed to trying something new. Main thing is i clean my gun same day i shoot it. Then run a patch down the barrel 2-3 days just to check. Cheap insurance.

[troy_mclure]

My job can and has caused me to leave my guns fired and dirty for weeks at a time. I fire mostly pyrodex rs, because that's about all I can find. I also live in south louisania so it's super humid year round.
I've had plenty of surface rust in the bore from doing this before, but no pitting.

But, since I have stopped washing out my barrels with soapy water I haven't had any rust at all. Ive even let my knight wolverine set almost a month after firing pyrodex pellets and sabots. I just run some patches of borebutter down it and I'm good to go.

I do get better velocity with goex fffg than pyrodex rs by 200fps tho.

[mooman76]

When BB first came out they claimed that it would help keep the corrosion down when used and not cleaned right away. I gave it a try and didn't clean my gun right away but I checked it daily and for a week it never did show signs of corrosion. I didn't go longer than a week because I was afraid of forgetting about it and it already proved it's point to me.

[Longwood]

When BB first came out they claimed that it would help keep the corrosion down when used and not cleaned right away. I gave it a try and didn't clean my gun right away but I checked it daily and for a week it never did show signs of corrosion. I didn't go longer than a week because I was afraid of forgetting about it and it already proved it's point to me.

What is BB.

[Simonpie]

I have to think Pyrodex went through a formula change at one point. 20 years ago I was shooting a shotgun with pyrodex loads and having light brown rust forming while we were shooting. Anything the gun or hands or cleaning tools or anything came in contact with rusted fast. And yet, I hear lots of others with no problems. I don't understand. I know true black has never caused me problems.

[Boerrancher]

I have to think Pyrodex went through a formula change at one point. 20 years ago I was shooting a shotgun with pyrodex loads and having light brown rust forming while we were shooting. Anything the gun or hands or cleaning tools or anything came in contact with rusted fast. And yet, I hear lots of others with no problems. I don't understand. I know true black has never caused me problems.

I had the same experience, nearly instant rust, so I went back to the real stuff and the fouling was real hard no matter what I used as a patch lube. Talked to an old timer about my problems and was told to toss the Pyrodex that it was garbage. Also I have a friend of mine who shoots inlines, and use to use Trip 7, he was always meticulous about cleaning after shooting, and yet he had to replace the breach plug because it was starting to pit. Not rust or corrode, just pit like part of the material was being eaten away in spots. He bought a new breach plug and went to Pyrodex pellets and his problem was solved. So I don't know.

I have heard good and bad about the substitutes, but have never heard anyone bad mouth real black powder if they were a ML shooter. That has got to say something right there about what is the best. If you can't get black powder, which in most cases I don't understand why you can't, because Graf's ships to everywhere in the US, then there may be a reason to use a substitute, but based on personal experience and what I have heard the Substitutes can be nothing but trouble.

Best wishes,

Joe

[mooman76]

What is BB.

Sorry, Bore Butter. I used the Nature lube 1000 and the T/C brand.

[troy_mclure]

If you can't get black powder, which in most cases I don't understand why you can't, because Graf's ships to everywhere in the US, then there may be a reason to use a substitute, but based on personal experience and what I have heard the Substitutes can be nothing but trouble.

Best wishes,

Joe

I'd rather not pay $28+\lb when pyrodex rs cost me $15/lb.

[rmark]

I shoot Pyrodex and Goex and can't tell much difference between them. The Pyrodex loads easier over a greater number of shots. I clean with hot water as soon as I get home followed by Hoppes #9 or wd-40. I've never had any rust problem, but living in Oklahoma means I have lower humidity than the eastern US or coastal areas.

[FRJ]

I am a fanatic about cleaning all my firearms. The rifle I used Pyrodex exclusively in lost the barrel due to BAD pitting. It is a fairly common knowledge that Pyro is very corrosive and it leaves a chemical in the pores of the steel that doesn't come out and corrodes the barrel terribly. In a conversation with the owner of our local muzzleloader shop he stated that some barrels just get eaten up real bad and some others don't. Real BP can be ordered from several sources in the US and the cost is cheaper than the subs. If I had to use subs or not shoot I would not shoot. FRJ