homemade "M" type expanders

[Mohavedog]

Greetings Castbooliteers,

It seems as though I'm always needing an m-type case expander that is a thou or two larger or smaller than what I have. I've been toying with the possibility that I can make my own custom expanders. So I am thinking that I can save time and trouble by buying a supply of the largest size expanders and turn them town on my small lathe to the exact size I want. I know I can have Mr. Buckshot make me custom ones, but I'm impatient and when I need a certain size I just want to take a few minutes and make it. Plus I like making my own stuff if I can.

Anyone have any tips or advice on doing this. Thanks a lot, Dog

[1hole]

Last I checked, Lyman's "M" expanders were quite hard, virtually impossable to turn down with precision without a tool post grinder even if you could chuck them correcty.

I make mine from grade 5 or 8 bolts; it takes more than a few minutes.

[Mohavedog]

Last I checked, Lyman's "M" expanders were quite hard, virtually impossable to turn down with precision without a tool post grinder even if you could chuck them correcty.

I make mine from grade 5 or 8 bolts; it takes more than a few minutes.



Thx 1hole, that is the type of info I'm looking for. I thought the m expanders may be too hard to cut down. Not out of my ability to aneal and re-temper, but would rather skip that. Your use of bolts is a simple path. And yeah, when I said a few minutes I was simplifying it a bit.:rolleyes: Thanks for taking time to respond. Dog

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Mohave Dog, since I discovered "M"dies I don't load any cast bullet without one. If you have a lathe, they are easy to make. Buy a length of half inch fine thread and turn it down to what you want . Many of the expander die bodies are threaded for half inch fine thread. If you want to use a die body from another set of loading dies it doesn't harm them.

[blikseme300]

Dog,

I use W-1 tool steel from McMaster for my PTX and M-style expanders. Easy to machine and harden.

Bliksem

[Revolver]

I give... what's an M die?

[Edward429451]

It's an expander die that is specially made for cast boolits. Once you use one you will want them in all calibers.

[bbqncigars]

The nice thing about making your own M style expanders is that you can put a mirror finish on them.

[1hole]

"I give... what's an M die? "

Do a web search for Lyman reloading, the M will be listed/described under "dies". Yeah, it's "made" for use with cast bullets but it works just as well with jacketed and usually helps to improve accuracy with them too.

[Longwood]

I give... what's an M die?

And,,,,
Why don't we call them what they are?

[DeanWinchester]

And,,,,
Why don't we call them what they are?

Right, what the heck is the M?

[462]

And,,,,
Why don't we call them what they are?

Because, that's what Lyman calls them.

[beagle]

The expander buttons are pretty hard on the Lyman M dies. Too hard to easily work down. There is a common bolt available at Ace Hardware that has the correct thread and I've made a couple in a pinch from them and they worked pretty well./beagle

[454PB]

I made my own many years ago, just a 7/8" x14 tpi die drilled to accept the individual "M" type mouth expanders, held in place with an allen set screw.

Seems everyone gets too concerned with hardness, these are made from mild steel and are unchanged after much use. Same thing with my home made boolit sizing dies, they just don't need to be all that hard.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/Homemadeneckexpanders2.jpg

[Longwood]

Because, that's what Lyman calls them.

Does anyone else make them?
Do they use a nonsensical name also?
Is there a sensible reason for the weird name?
Why do people confuse the new people with goofy made up names when neck expander or flaring die make soooo much more sense to use?

[midnight]

The way I understand the naming of the "M" die was from the old old Lyman catalog. Items were listed in some kind of order and given a letter. The case neck expander was "M". The bullet sizing die was "H" and the punch in the die was "I". Hence H&I sizing die. I wonder what all the other letters stood for. Somebody here must have a real old Lyman catalog.

Bob

[jonk]

It's a lot easier to modify your dies to size to the proper diameter with a little emery paper and possibly one replacement expander, than it is to custom make M dies.

That said, they would be nice to have. Right now I use one for 8mm and .31 cal, but use my Lee univeral flaring tool for everything else- which is nice, but for a fat bullet sometimes still leads to bulged necks.

[buyobuyo]

What size do you all making your own M die expanders make them? Do you make them the same size as the boolit, a thousandth more or less? Also, do you make the primary expander the same length as the boolit in the case or a hair longer? I want to turn out a few when I have a chance.

[462]

Buyobuyo,
I don't have a lathe, so had a machinist friend make a few M-die expander plugs. I had the body sized .002" smaller in diameter and the same length as the boolit, and the step .001" larger than boolit diameter. Hope this helps.

[bbqncigars]

If you're making your own expanders, then a mirror finish really helps when put to use.

[Elkins45]

I made my own many years ago, just a 7/8" x14 tpi die drilled to accept the individual "M" type mouth expanders, held in place with an allen set screw.

Seems everyone gets too concerned with hardness, these are made from mild steel and are unchanged after much use. Same thing with my home made boolit sizing dies, they just don't need to be all that hard.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/Homemadeneckexpanders2.jpg

That setup is SWEET! I just bought an old South Bend lathe this winter and this looks like exactly the kind of project I might be able to do with my very limited skills. Thanks for sharing it.


Does anyone else make them?
Do they use a nonsensical name also?
Is there a sensible reason for the weird name?
Why do people confuse the new people with goofy made up names when neck expander or flaring die make soooo much more sense to use?

Because they aren't just the same as a flaring die. A flaring die is really just a tapered plug that bells the case mouth to accept the bullet base. A M-type die has an elongated expander section with a stepped 'ledge' to expand a parallel section just at the case mouth. If I were any good at ASCII art on an iPad I would try to draw it. M die is a useful term because it describes a very specific tool. It's like saying Colt Python instead of just saying revolver.

[Elkins45]

Here's Lyman's drawing of an M die:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/includes/img/lyman/dies/rifleDies_mdie.jpg

[Longwood]

Here's Lyman's drawing of an M die:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/includes/img/lyman/dies/rifleDies_mdie.jpg

Thanks
That shows it is not just a flare die.
It sort of make an internal step.
Seems odd to me but,,,,,
It looks like it is designed for jacketed bullets that swell the neck back out.

[Longwood]

That setup is SWEET! I just bought an old South Bend lathe this winter and this looks like exactly the kind of project I might be able to do with my very limited skills. Thanks for sharing it.



Because they aren't just the same as a flaring die. A flaring die is really just a tapered plug that bells the case mouth to accept the bullet base. A M-type die has an elongated expander section with a stepped 'ledge' to expand a parallel section just at the case mouth. If I were any good at ASCII art on an iPad I would try to draw it. M die is a useful term because it describes a very specific tool. It's like saying Colt Python instead of just saying revolver.

Thanks for that.
I see that many people, including Midway call them neck expander M die.
Self explanatory which M is not.
I suspect it was a production and part number that actually means nothing to the buyer/users.

Some guy layed sbr on me this morning.
:veryconfu Duh! Huh! What the F, over.

[1hole]

"I see that many people, including Midway call them neck expander M die. Self explanatory which M is not."

They are indeed neck expanders; the second and third steps are intended for flaring as needed. (Redding has copied the M expander for their pistol dies, I think RCBS has too). The first step insures even jacketed bullets will enter without damage to the critical bullet heel. The upper - flaring - step is rarely needed even for cast bullets unless the bullets are vastly over-sized.


"I suspect it was a production and part number that actually means nothing to the buyer/users."

"M" was the number by which it was listed in the original catalogs, ditto "H" and "I" for bullet sizing in Lyman's lubrasizers. All three were so popular and common years ago there was no reason to explain that M was an expander, virtually everyone knew it and that was long before the web. Such things as 'M', 'H' and 'I' stuck because in the old days few if any makers produced an annual catalog, they kept using the same one until they actually had some new stuff to list so they could easily get 3-6 years of using the same catalog.

[Longwood]

"I see that many people, including Midway call them neck expander M die. Self explanatory which M is not."

They are indeed neck expanders; the second and third steps are intended for flaring as needed. (Redding has copied the M expander for their pistol dies, I think RCBS has too). The first step insures even jacketed bullets will enter without damage to the critical bullet heel. The upper - flaring - step is rarely needed even for cast bullets unless the bullets are vastly over-sized.


"I suspect it was a production and part number that actually means nothing to the buyer/users."

"M" was the number by which it was listed in the original catalogs, ditto "H" and "I" for bullet sizing in Lyman's lubrasizers. All three were so popular and common years ago there was no reason to explain that M was an expander, virtually everyone knew it and that was long before the web. Such things as 'M', 'H' and 'I' stuck because in the old days few if any makers produced an annual catalog, they kept using the same one until they actually had some new stuff to list so they could easily get 3-6 years of using the same catalog.

I would ask again why people use nonsense like old and now meaningless words. acronyms, abbreviations, etc.
Thing is, I actually knew why all along. I have seen it hundreds of times over the years.
Some new dude hears some old guys using a phrase or word they do not know and by the end of the day the newbie is using the word and still has no idea what at one time in history it actually meant.
Nowdays, the young and ignorant internet genius's, make up new anonymous everyday, then expect people to understand them.
Well Duh!
I am an old geezer that knows lot's of old nicknames, abbreviations and acronyms that people here and on other sites I belong to know, but even when I am trying to communicate with people that I know would understand, I take the extra 1/2 second or less to type it out so even the new readers can understand.
The new people actually learns useful info that way instead of something that means nothing now.
I am still "New people" here so I really appreciate others that do the same so I can understand them. I would sure hate to be a person from another country that was trying to understand.
I know this site was started by people that had no idea where it was headed and luckily some of the guys are still here and have inadvertently become instructors.
I certainly commend them and thank them for all that they have done and do.
End of rant.
Sorry if I offended anyone.

Now,,,, Hand me that Cresent wrench and the STP. :bigsmyl2:

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=1hole;1642682]

They are indeed neck expanders; the second and third steps are intended for flaring as needed. (Redding has copied the M expander for their pistol dies, I think RCBS has too). The first step insures even jacketed bullets will enter without damage to the critical bullet heel. The upper - flaring - step is rarely needed even for cast bullets unless the bullets are vastly over-sized.

I am loading 45 Long Colt and 45-70, with cast bullets only now.

I now see how that type of expander would work very nicely.
I am still slightly confused however.
Midway talks about two steps, not three.
On straight cases, is the long pilot part of it the expander, or is it not an expander and the short stepped up section is the expander then the final step to the body is the flare that is seldom needed.
The photo of the sketch does not appear to be expanding the case.

Also,,, to add to my confusion, Midway does not list a different size for cast and jacketed.

Then I see where RCBS makes dies just for cast bullets that size larger.

Should I keep my brass separate for each gun, and not size the straight cases at all then use an M type die to flare with?

I already have dies for both calibers, not the RCBS dies though, so should I make some special, larger, flaring die inserts, like the M type die, that takes the brass back out to the proper size.

The 45's are being shot in tube magazine rifles.

I am holding that Cresent wrench,,, should I toss it into the works?

The old dudes will understand the last question.
For the new guys it sort-of meant trying to do too much at one time
"They just tossed a Monkey wrench into the work's" was the common phrase.
It was often used by the intelligent people that were trying to make what the engineers designed actually do what they were hoping it would do.

Am I asking for and trying to deal with too much at once or should I deal with the crimped cartridges a entirely or, hopefully, slightly different way?

Sometimes I think my old brain is completely full. Then times like these, stuff seems to rattle around in there like a BB in a box car.

[454PB]

I think you're over complicating this, you don't need an "M" die for 45/70 or .45 Colt. The dies you have will flair the case mouth enough......you only need to prevent shaving the boolit as it enters the die....and you WANT a good case grip on the boolit.

Where "M" dies are needed is for loading cartridges that don't have a mouth expander. Most shouldered rifle rounds fit this description.

For my home made expanders, I size the main body to increase the neck diameter about .001" over the size provided by the normal expander ball, then machine a very slight "taper" for the case mouth.

[Longwood]

I think you're over complicating this, you don't need an "M" die for 45/70 or .45 Colt. The dies you have will flair the case mouth enough......you only need to prevent shaving the boolit as it enters the die....and you WANT a good case grip on the boolit.

Where "M" dies are needed is for loading cartridges that don't have a mouth expander. Most shouldered rifle rounds fit this description.

For my home made expanders, I size the main body to increase the neck diameter about .001" over the size provided by the normal expander ball, then machine a very slight "taper" for the case mouth.

Thank you
That makes it much clearer.
I do wonder why Lyman sells the dies for 45 and 45-70.
I think that was part of my confusion.

[DLCTEX]

If your 45-70 size die squeezes the neck down too much the large boolits like RD 460-35- and 420, then the M die can help. I also use it for 30-30 when loading the 311-170 FP boolits sized .310. We casters tend to do things other reloaders don't do and are known to come up with novel ways to solve problems.

[462]

"We casters tend to do things other reloaders don't do and are known to come up with novel ways to solve problems."

Sir, you are so correct.

[Longwood]

Thanks fella's.
I cast at least a hundred pounds of bullets last year and made some molds and cast a bunch more a week ago,,, annnnd,,,, I am learning new stuff here every day.
I have a lathe and a 7/8" SAE bolt, so,,,,

[Mohavedog]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful input. Someone mentioned using "half inch fine thread" bolts and turn them down. My investigation shows the die bodies I have are all 9/16" x 18 internal threads. I'm thinking now would be the time for me to learn a new lathe skill, ie: threading. I have some tutorials on thread turning but any tips would be welcome.

Thanks, Dog

[40Super]

I make my own for my LNL,every caliber I load and for all my oversize cast.It's the best way I found to get the cases expanded enough plus be able to start the lead bullets nice and straight. My RCBS expanders are made out of 1/2-20 bolts.

[theperfessor]

Helpful tip: I keep three files around when I thread. A flat file, a thread file, and a small triangular file. The flat file knocks the burrs off the top edge of the thread. The thread file cleans up the thread flanks. Both are necessary for accurate measurement. The triangular file is used mostly to clean up around thread starts and for spot filing.

Thread files aren't all that expensive. I have two, the inch-sized square ones cover 8 thread pitches each, with one duplicated pitch. I can cover 15 common pitches. I don't think they cost more than $10-$12 each.

They're definitely worth having.

[Longwood]

I sometimes use files with a knife type blade.
Most needle/jeweler file sets have one for tiny threads but I also have bigger ones that are about an inch wide and ten inches long that sure come in handy when I am dealing with threads.
My favorite of all for thead work are the cantsaw files that are shaped like a squashed pyramid.

My next order at MSc direct will include an 8 inch knife and an eight inch cantsaw blade.

[Longwood]

Brass makes great oi;ess bushings etc.
have any of you used brass for the inserts?
The expander flare piece?

[Edit]
I wonder if brass agains't brass would be a no-no.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I use the Lee Universal flare die,
but not with the Lee flare plugs,
I have bought several plugs from
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1221/1
and modify them as needed. these are mild steel.

I don't have a lathe or mill,
I use a drill press and some redneck machining techniques.
Jon

[seagiant]

Hi,
$2.99??? I have a lathe and can't make them that cheap!!!

[Safeshot]

I think that the latest production of the RCBS Cowboy Action dies have a dual diameter expander plug and is larger than the jacketed bullet expander plug as well. You might give RCBS Customer Service a call and see if they can advise you on availability for what ever caliber you need.

[9-toes]

I use the Lee Universal flare die,
but not with the Lee flare plugs,
I have bought several plugs from
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1221/1
and modify them as needed. these are mild steel.

I don't have a lathe or mill,
I use a drill press and some redneck machining techniques.
Jon

Jon B - perfect timing for this thread. I'm trying to find out if the Lee Universal works like the Powder Through Expanding die. I like this feature and don't want to have to add a step on my Classic Press if I can help it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

9-toes,
No the Lee Universal will not work like the Powder Through Expanding die.
I have to use another step in reloading.

you could make a new insert for the Lee Powder Through Expanding die,
but that's quite a bit more complicated to do. Others here have done that.

another option, as you may know, is Lyman's powder thru expander die that
comes with a set of expanders, but doesn't work with Lee's Pro-auto disk measure right out of the box ...and I've heard mixed reviews about the size that Lyman made the expanders.
Jon

[9-toes]

Oh well - Thanks JonB. Sure would be a nice thing to have . . hint . . hint . . Mr. Lee