E85 Gas ?

[frkelly74]

I have been eyeing the E85 gas pump at the Mobil station. It is a full $.50 cheaper per gallon than regular 87 octane that I have always used which is $3.99 everywhere right now. If I try it in a 2003 windstar will I be sorry? IT runs pretty good right now and is paid for. I know there are some mechanics out there.

[tubb_ooh_lard]

i wouldnt , i dont know if your van was designed to run on e85 or not , but the $.50 you save at the pump gets lost even in the new flex fuel cars designed to run on it alcohol simply doesnt have the same amount of energy as gas , you can expect to lose 25% or better of your gas milage using it

[tomme boy]

We had a Tahoe that was E85 safe. We tried it a couple of times to just see how it ran. We ran 3 tanks in a row to make sure it was all e85. 35% less cost, MPG dropped 45%. So, not worth it.

I knew that this was going to happen, but the old lady wanted to see. I used to race on the 1/4 mile. I had a alcohol injected motor. We would use about 2.5 gal of alcohol inplace of a gal of 115 race leaded gas. We saved $ using the alcohol, but the whole fuel system has to be made to run the fuel. That was costly.

[mooman76]

You guide should tell you and it probably isn't. It will do damage to your engine if not designed for altenative fuels.

[Houndog]

Put E85 in an engine not setup for it and it WILL be a VERY expensive trip to your favorite mechanic! Ethanol is corrosive and hygrascopic! Think in terms of replacing most of your fuel system components from the corosive action of the Alcohol and the rust from the water it attracts.

[Finster101]

You won't even get so far as stuff rusting. If the tank is very low you probably would not get very far down the road. The fuel system in your car can not adapt quickly enough or have the capacity to dump enough fuel into the motor. Now on the other hand, if you are running a supercharger you can really crank up the boost for lots of fun.

[smkummer]

My son's 2001 S10 2.2 liter goes 400 miles on a tank of 87 octane or 300 miles on E85. So if E85 is $3 and 87 octane is $4, its a wash. It did have a little more pep on the higher octane E85.

[dmize]

DO NOT USE E-85 in your Windstar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It will run like **** turn on check engine light and you will pay a technician to drain your fuel tank and replace the fuel filter.
And FWIW... Every Ford Flex-Fuel vehicle has a sticker comparing fuel cost and mileage between gas and E-85....even a retarded 3 year old can do the math and see E-85 is a joke.
And btw,the most you can run thru a vehicle that is NOT labled E-85 in 10%.
And I am a Ford Senior Master Technician/farmer that npays more for my feed because of the "increased corn demand".

[frkelly74]

Okay then, The nays have it.

[JeffinNZ]

I used to be able to buy 100 octane race fuel for use in my strimmer and chainsaw. It worked REALLY well.

[MtGun44]

E85 is NOT gasoline, is is 85% ethanol and will ruin a normal car. ONLY "Flexfuel" cars
are OK with it.

Bottom line is bad. Ethanol is alcohol. Alcohol has HALF the energy per gallon as gasoline.

So, think about it a bit. Half of 85% is 42%. All of 15% is 15% so E85 will have 42 + 15=57% of
the energy of 100% gasoline. So, expect to get 57% of the miles per gallon. If your Windstar
gets 22 mpg on gasoline, it should get around 0.57 x 22 = 12.5 mpg on E85. Sounds like a
bargain to me. . . . . . . . NOT!!

So, even if you get a 50 cent discount, you cut your miles per gallon nearly in half. You'd have to
pay only 57% of the gas price to BREAK EVEN. If gas is about $3.99 where you are, you'd need to
pay $2.27 per gallon to break even.

Bill

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

As a former professional engine builder, do not use it unless your owners manual says it's safe.
It will corrode anything not made to handle it and it will eat everything made of rubber.

We one place in town here that has 100% ethanol free fuel in all grades. The cheap stuff was good for a 4 mpg improvement in my 1999 Tahoe.

[Bret4207]

Even our mandated 10% ethanol mixes up north here give problems with cars, as well as small engines. The only good to Ethanol gasolines is that a lot of corn farmers are doing rather well financially at the moment.

[Poygan]

I buy a mid grade that is ethanol-free for ten cents a gallon more than E-10 regular and use it for mowers, snow blowers, etc. Two cycle engines get premium only.

Shouldn't there be a wider disparity in price when fuel prices go up? There is consistently a fifty cent difference here between E-10 and E-85 regardless of the price per gallon.

[perotter]

So, think about it a bit. Half of 85% is 42%. All of 15% is 15% so E85 will have 42 + 15=57% of
the energy of 100% gasoline. So, expect to get 57% of the miles per gallon. If your Windstar
gets 22 mpg on gasoline, it should get around 0.57 x 22 = 12.5 mpg on E85.




That is correct only if you are heating water. The BME of ethanol in an engine is much better than the BME of gasoline.

[Ed in North Texas]

I buy a mid grade that is ethanol-free for ten cents a gallon more than E-10 regular and use it for mowers, snow blowers, etc. Two cycle engines get premium only.

Shouldn't there be a wider disparity in price when fuel prices go up? There is consistently a fifty cent difference here between E-10 and E-85 regardless of the price per gallon.

That $0.50 is probably a bit more than the Federal subsidy for the Ethanol, or maybe the exact subsidy amount. I might be mistaken as to the exact amount, but I seem to recollect $0.50 per gallon of Ethanol mixed with gasoline.

Ed

[perotter]

There never was a $0.50 per gallon subsidy for ethanol. There used to be a $0.50 tax credit that the blender was eligible for. That tax credit has ended.

FWIW, a tax credit can only be considered a subsidy if one thinks that 100% of everyone's income belongs to the Fed government and anything we are allowed to keep is a subsidy.

[oldred]

It did have a little more pep on the higher octane E85.

Higher octane does NOT equal more power! All the higher octane rating does is raise the detonation level for the grade of gasoline being used and if an engine is designed for a lower octane then a higher rating is simply a waste of money. People waste money all the time buying "premium" fuel thinking the extra cost is offset by the better performance and power, and thus higher mileage, but such is not the case for most cars because higher octane does not mean more powerful gasoline. The bottom line is if an engine does not "ping" or "knock" on regular then premium is a waste! Premium, or high octane, fuel can allow an engine to reach a higher HP than regular fuel IF the engine is designed and tuned for it (higher compression ratio, spark timing, etc) but an engine designed and tuned for regular will not benefit from this potential. In other words, premium will allow an engine to produce more power by being designed to take advantage of the higher octane (and some are, such as turbocharged and other high performance engines) but unless the engine has the compression ratio and other factors involved then the extra octane is simply wasted.


There is a common argument that the ECM (the car's computer) will automatically retard timing and thus reduce power and mileage when "pinging" or "knock" is encountered and since premium fuel will prevent the "ping" in the first place better performance does indeed result, not true! If the engine is "pinging" on regular then several things could be the cause, the engine in need of maintenance, "lugging" or overloading the engine or just plain bad fuel. Bad fuel is by far the leading cause and in spite of supposedly very strict laws governing gasoline quality octane ratings lower than claimed is all too common. The solution is to switch brands of gasoline and/or the station selling it rather than cough up more money for premium fuel that's not needed. Also the argument that premium will pay for itself by negating the need for the ECM to control "pinging" or spark knock by retarding timing is also not true since this knock when using regular only occurs during periods of heavy engine loading then the premium would only be effective for those brief moments. Intermittent periods of spark knock or "pinging" should be dealt with by changing brands or suppliers of fuel, changing driving habits (don't "lug" the engine) or checking for engine maintenance problems and not by wasting more money on already expen$ive gas! If an engine "pings" constantly on regular grades and switching brands does not help then either serious maintenance problems exist or the engine is designed for premium, if it is meant for premium it will be so marked on the gas gauge.

Bottom line don't waste money on premium fuel for an engine designed for regular!

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

you need to consult your owners manual first , check to see if it can take e85

next the question is it worth it , we have a 2006 implala that is one of the first flex engines , vin number tells me it is ok , but before they printed it on the outside of the car that it was flex

we get 26-28 with tires properly inflated on E10 or what most people call standard reformulated 87 octane

it drops to 22-23 on a full tank of e85 we can fill up just outside the gate of the ethenol plant when we are in the next town over and get it for 75 or 80 cents less

it is almost a wash loosing 6 miles to the gallon

what i haven't tried and have read about is 1 gallon of B25 diesel to a tank full of e85 so about 14:1 gas to B25 it puts back great lube properties and many report engine noise goes down

what the station did realize was form watching recipts they found a lot of people making up what is basically E25 gas it saved them some money but they apparently didn't loose the mileage

make sure your tires are properly inflated to what the tire sais not the owners manual , some owners manuals will drop pressure by 5psi to get a gentler ride , fully inflated tires makes the biggest difference in the mileage on that car , it will get 29-30 high way if it is really highway , most of what we drive is 2 lane county highway

[oldred]

I think one of the biggest problems with E85 is that it tends to attack some Aluminum components in the fuel system of vehicles not designed to use it, these vehicles are usually safe at concentrations of less than about 15% but over that and the Aluminum starts to corrode. I would not use E85 in any vehicle that does not have the proper fuel system specifically designed for the stuff, mixing it with E10 or 100% gas will alleviate the corrosion problem to some extent depending on the dilution but it would be a gamble for no real gain. ANY amount of E85 mixed with E10 or 100% gas is going to reduce fuel mileage by an amount proportional to the amount of alcohol present in the resulting mix, whatever it may be, because alcohol simply does not have the BTUs per pound of gasoline so it is not possible to save money by just mixing a small amount of E85 and expecting no reduction at all in mileage.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

about 7 years ago, I had a 1988 Honda Civic CRX (5 spd)...NOT flex fuel..not recomended for E85.
with regular gas, this car would get 38 mpg around town, with an agressive driver.
and 45 mpg on the highway, driving nicely at 60MPH...if I was traveling on a long trip
and I happened to have the wind at my back for that tankfull, I've seen 55 MPG.
That model year 1988 was the last year of the "light weight" model and was known to get better mileage and is highly
sought after by the Ice racers in the lightweight class. The '89 had
new improved safety features that added weight to the car.

I conducted a little test, back when Gas was less then $2 per gallon, and E-85 for at least 50¢ cheaper...maybe more, I can't recall the exact price, I just know I was tempted to run a higher alcohol content.
I would fill the tank with half E85 and Half E7 (that was the mandate in MN at that time).
I did this for 5 tanks fulls in a row, just to be certain that the tank was as close to E46
as possible...Over 1500 miles with that gas and no mechanical problems...I drove that car another 15,000 miles before selling...again no problems.

I seen about a 2 MPG drop on average for Highway driving and about 5 MPG drop for city driving.
Jon

[Boondocker]

In some of my advanced college courses in automotive electronics, yes even a fifty yr old can do it. Ethanol is the biggest joke for autos even flex fuel. For me to use it, it better be one quarter the price of gasoline for the head ache of it. I have a flex fuel F 150 that I bought only as a cheaper 2010 leftover as they are not selling like hotcakes. Stainless fuel lines and alcohol proof fuel components. I only run premium in my two cycles to avoid less alcohol and use enzymes additive for insurance. 30 years ago they were slipping alcohol in the gas my bud proved it to me as he had a saw shop and is a professional logger with 12 employees and uses alot of 2 cycles.

[dsmjon]

I dunno, I had a 1991 Eagle Talon that LOVED Egas.... May have had something to do with the PTE SCM-61 turbo (65lb/min) and 1,000cc/min injectors though.... But @ 38lbs boostyboost, she'd break all 4 tires loose @ 90mph.

But in a Windstar? Find a station that sells 0% ethanol, and burn it.

[frkelly74]

So another gimmick foisted by the greenies? Or the department of Agriculture?

[dragon813gt]

Inflating your tires to the MAX reading imprinted on them is not a good idea. This is a good way to pop the bead. Most cars are fine between 30-35 psi. Trucks and Vans should check the owners manual. Remember that a tire manufacturer only makes a tire in a given size. They don't know what vehicle it will be going on. All they can tell you is the maximum pressure for that tire. Not the recommended pressure based on car weight/wheel diameter/ wheel width. And this is the last forum that I'd expect to understand the art of tire stretching. Simply put, running a tire to the psi listed on the sidewall is a good way to pop the bead in most conditions.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

[Lloyd Smale]

Old red is correct. But In the right car alcohol can be used to sort of make more power. For example the 87 grand national i had would run 14 lbs of boost on the turbo with normal premium gas. If i ran a 5050 mix of alcohol and gas i could run more timing and also kick the boost up to close to 20 lbs without detonation and it ran like a scaled rabbit. We knew thought that a steady diet of it would ruin things if you werent cranking up the boost so what we ended up doing was mounting another windshield washer resivour and a high pressure pump that would inject the alchohol into the line just before the fuel rail and put an ajustable waste gate that would control boost levels from inside the car too. that way you could turn the alcohol on or off with a switch. Bottom like though as old red said unless you bumping up your timing or compression or your boost alcohol on its own will actually decrease performance as will increasing the octain in your fuel.

One thing around here though is our regular gas is mixed with alcohol anyway. its not e85 but it does have a percentage of alcohol in it. You have to look for a specific alcohol free pump if it bothers you. Ive heard many around here complain that there car or truck just doesnt get the milage it did when new. I tell them all its the change in fuel not there vehicle. One of my buddys is the local mechanic and he says he has people comming in weekly to get there milage fixed and he tells them the same thing. Ill add this though. If running alcohol was as hard on a motor as what some claim there would sure be a bunch of crapped out vehicles on the road around here. Just about any fuel injected car made in the last 10 years has changed rubber parts and other parts alcohol effects to differnt materials that arent going to be effected. That been said you dont want to run E85. To be able to run it E85 compatable vehicles use much bigger injectors and the computer also has the ability to ajust fuel pressure over a greater range to push more of the low energy fuel into your motor. Without them your vehicle would feel like you pulled a couple spark plug wires off.
Higher octane does NOT equal more power! All the higher octane rating does is raise the detonation level for the grade of gasoline being used and if an engine is designed for a lower octane then a higher rating is simply a waste of money. People waste money all the time buying "premium" fuel thinking the extra cost is offset by the better performance and power, and thus higher mileage, but such is not the case for most cars because higher octane does not mean more powerful gasoline. The bottom line is if an engine does not "ping" or "knock" on regular then premium is a waste! Premium, or high octane, fuel can allow an engine to reach a higher HP than regular fuel IF the engine is designed and tuned for it (higher compression ratio, spark timing, etc) but an engine designed and tuned for regular will not benefit from this potential. In other words, premium will allow an engine to produce more power by being designed to take advantage of the higher octane (and some are, such as turbocharged and other high performance engines) but unless the engine has the compression ratio and other factors involved then the extra octane is simply wasted.


There is a common argument that the ECM (the car's computer) will automatically retard timing and thus reduce power and mileage when "pinging" or "knock" is encountered and since premium fuel will prevent the "ping" in the first place better performance does indeed result, not true! If the engine is "pinging" on regular then several things could be the cause, the engine in need of maintenance, "lugging" or overloading the engine or just plain bad fuel. Bad fuel is by far the leading cause and in spite of supposedly very strict laws governing gasoline quality octane ratings lower than claimed is all too common. The solution is to switch brands of gasoline and/or the station selling it rather than cough up more money for premium fuel that's not needed. Also the argument that premium will pay for itself by negating the need for the ECM to control "pinging" or spark knock by retarding timing is also not true since this knock when using regular only occurs during periods of heavy engine loading then the premium would only be effective for those brief moments. Intermittent periods of spark knock or "pinging" should be dealt with by changing brands or suppliers of fuel, changing driving habits (don't "lug" the engine) or checking for engine maintenance problems and not by wasting more money on already expen$ive gas! If an engine "pings" constantly on regular grades and switching brands does not help then either serious maintenance problems exist or the engine is designed for premium, if it is meant for premium it will be so marked on the gas gauge.

Bottom line don't waste money on premium fuel for an engine designed for regular!

[firefly1957]

Expect 60% off the mileage using E-85 so it is not a good value unless the cost is half of gas with 10% alcohol.

I tested several of my cars when we could still get all gas and 10% ethanol dropped my mileage by 7% on all but one car and it had a carburetor and ran fine on 10% alcohol. My motor home also dropped 7% except the mileage stayed the same when towing 5500lb boat on Trailer.

If your car is not made for E-85 DO NOT USE IT As it will eat up the impeller in your fuel pump among many other problems!

[perotter]

So another gimmick foisted by the greenies? Or the department of Agriculture?

They Department of Defense wanted it as a domestic source of fuel in case of war. Most of the grants for research given out for "green" fuels came directly from the DOD until a few years ago.

[perotter]

To be able to run it E85 compatable vehicles use much bigger injectors and the computer also has the ability to ajust fuel pressure over a greater range to push more of the low energy fuel into your motor. Without them your vehicle would feel like you pulled a couple spark plug wires off.

You don't need bigger injectors. You use the engines computer to increase the amount of time that the injector is open.

Google Mega Squirt for info on changing the fuel to air ratio.

[oldred]

You don't need bigger injectors. You use the engines computer to increase the amount of time that the injector is open.

Google Mega Squirt for info on changing the fuel to air ratio.



Agreed that dwell time can be increased up to a point but most E85 engines do have bigger injectors. Both dwell time and pressure can be varied to adjust fuel delivery but longer dwell times on an injector that's too small in the first place is not as efficient just as higher pressures can create issues of their own. Basically an injector designed for E85 will be sized to operate efficiently and reliably at dwell times and pressures that are compatible with both fuels, while it's very possible to increase fuel flow (up to a point) by increasing fuel pressure and/or increasing dwell time it's much better to just use an injector that's sized properly.

[captain-03]

They got us by the corn cobs!! Whether we like it or not - whether it damages engines or not - whether it gives us more get up and go or not -- WE WILL BE USING IT!! .... simply because OIL is BAD!!

[Ronbo256]

When e-85 first started becoming available around here I looked at a conversion kit for my 92 Ford explorer. It cost 600 bucks at the time, at 50 cents lower a gallon, if I got equal mileage, it would have broke even in 3 years of my typical driving at the time (35 mile a day round trip at 24 mpg). Once I factored in the loss of MPG, there was no way to make it pay for itself unless I started tripling my daily commute!! E85 is bad juju.

[oldred]

They got us by the corn cobs!! Whether we like it or not - whether it damages engines or not - whether it gives us more get up and go or not -- WE WILL BE USING IT!! .... simply because OIL is BAD!!



You got it and there's little we can do about it. Back in the early 80's the feds eliminated 80/87 AV gas and small airplanes designed to run the stuff were forced to use the newer 100 LL, or low lead, the term low lead was misleading however since it contained more lead than most automotive gas. This caused lead fouling of spark plugs, etc, which is far more than just a nuisance for aircraft obviously but we were told to use it anyway! I had my Cessna 150 STCed to run on unleaded auto gas but even that can be problematic if alcohol is involved. Things are somewhat better these days but if those rascals are willing to throw light aircraft engines to the wolves over fuel they will not hesitate to do the same for cars!

[Lloyd Smale]

correct answer. Your usually better off with an injector a bit big that doesnt have the dwell time to long or needs the pressure maxed out to get a rich enough mixture. With an injector a bit to big the computer can back off dwell time and pressures a bit when a regular no oxegentated fuel is used. To big can cause very little problems but injectors to small to keep up can toast a motor by leaning out to the point of detonation. I know that chev uses bigger injectors on there flex fuel trucks.
Agreed that dwell time can be increased up to a point but most E85 engines do have bigger injectors. Both dwell time and pressure can be varied to adjust fuel delivery but longer dwell times on an injector that's too small in the first place is not as efficient just as higher pressures can create issues of their own. Basically an injector designed for E85 will be sized to operate efficiently and reliably at dwell times and pressures that are compatible with both fuels, while it's very possible to increase fuel flow (up to a point) by increasing fuel pressure and/or increasing dwell time it's much better to just use an injector that's sized properly.

[dsmjon]

Almost all manufacturers use larger injectors on their flex fuel cars. Injector dwell is but one issue for most makes.

Dwell time is not affected independently, many times longer dwell time will be accompanied by an advance in ignition timing via the ECU.

Using a xx% larger injector will allow the use of -basically- the same code in the ECU. Rather than increasing dwell of a nonE85 injector, the dwell time can remain similar. This keeps ignition timing correct, and lessens or eliminates the ECU from operating in an incorrect map cell for the given conditions & inputs.

/nutshell with some generalizations made.



correct answer. Your usually better off with an injector a bit big that doesnt have the dwell time to long or needs the pressure maxed out to get a rich enough mixture. With an injector a bit to big the computer can back off dwell time and pressures a bit when a regular no oxegentated fuel is used. To big can cause very little problems but injectors to small to keep up can toast a motor by leaning out to the point of detonation. I know that chev uses bigger injectors on there flex fuel trucks.

[MT Gianni]

Even our mandated 10% ethanol mixes up north here give problems with cars, as well as small engines. The only good to Ethanol gasolines is that a lot of corn farmers are doing rather well financially at the moment.

Do not run 10% ethanol in a carburated motorcycle or 4 wheeler either. It settles and puddles in the tank and caused starting problems.

[Adam10mm]

E85 sucks as far as economy goes. My biggest issue is we're using a food source for fuel. Corn should be eaten by humans, not used for luxury transportation. Children starve in this country and people think it's a good idea to use food for fuel. Sickening.

[jcwit]

Totally agree with you freakshow. It also drives up the cost of eggs, chicken meat, hogs etc. as corn is fed to them.

Course the corn farmer is getting bucks.

[Adam10mm]

In matters of business, a corn farmer grows corn and sells it to a buyer. The moment (s)he gets paid is the moment they stop caring what happens to the corn.

In the grand scheme of things, human health is more important than human transportation.

On a side note, since I left Wisconsin in 2005, which mandates 10% ethanol in gasoline IIRC, my vehicles have run much better and much more efficient now that I'm in Michigan. When I head back there, I top off my tank just north of the border, so I can make it to Green Bay and make it back out of WI before I need gas, which I buy in MI.

[evan price]

I will put 25% E85 fuel in the tank when the weather drops to winter, for that one fillup. It will run any trapped moisture out of the fuel system, and cheaper than buying drygas separately.
Never had any trouble, yet. But obvious performance losses.

[oldred]

Totally agree with you freakshow. It also drives up the cost of eggs, chicken meat, hogs etc. as corn is fed to them.

Course the corn farmer is getting bucks.



Actually livestock feed is a huge by-product of Methanol production so it really hasn't contributed to higher feed costs. In fact a local dairy farmer here in Tn that I do a lot of equipment repair for buys a lot of feed, by the ton, directly from the Methanol production plant and he told me that this has actually lowered his costs.



Cattle feed costs aside, the whole idea of using Methanol for fuel is kinda dumb anyway, actually it's just plain stupid. If the methanol was taken from some by-product from another product that was being produced anyway then it would make sense but very little of it, if any, is produced as a by-product. The idea is of course to save fossil derived energy by using this "Green" renewable source for energy but there's a problem with this, when we take into consideration the amount of energy (almost all from fossil fuels) that is used to produce this Methanol any savings are quickly negated! The sum of the energy used to produce the corn (everything from equipment fuel to energy used for fertilizer production) and then add in the enormous amount of energy used to turn this corn into usable Methanol it usually adds up to a net LOSS of energy instead of gaining anything. Basically it takes more energy from start to finish to produce Methanol than the Methanol can replace. I know the "Greenies" and people who profit from Methanol production can juggle the numbers to make it look as if Methanol is the answer but they conveniently don't factor in all the coal, natural gas, etc that is used in the processing of the corn but in the end it's still energy consumed.