What Rifle Caliber

[ksriverrat]

Hey Fellas I am new here. Been lurking a bit prior to this first post.

I have some experience casting for handgun but with rifle zero. I was wanting advice for a good rifle caliber for boolits. I know some seem to do a little better than others.
The only criteria is brass needs to be readily available & relatively cheap.
What are some thoughts on the 30-06?What kind of velocity with a 180 grain cast? Open to all other options.....Thanks!

[dragon813gt]

As far as brass availability the two most readily available are going to be 5.56x45 and 7.62x51. There is high abundance of military surplus available which keeps the costs down. Downside is you run into crimped primers. But .223 and .308 brass is just as plentiful. The last 200 .308 brass that I bought yielded only 25 military pieces. But the vast majority of 5.56 range pickups I get are military. I currently don't cast for rifles so I can't say how well these calibers work. But I'd imagine with the right mold and gas check they'd be spot on accurate.


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[williamwaco]

I personally think the absolute best cartridge for your quest is the .30-30.
Brass is cheap. All mine is range pickups. It is almost as common as 5.56 at my range.

My .30-30 is a Thompson Contender with a 23 inch bbl. It is very accurate.

From what I read, I expect the .308 Winchester is the most popular for cast and does a very good job. The 30-06 would also be excellent. I wuldn't go looking for a, '06 unless I wanted to hunt with full power loads more powerful then the .308 but if the first thing I found was a good bolt action '06, I sure wouldn't turn it down.

My data indicates the .30-30 can get you a max of about 2250 with a 175 grain cast gc. I couldn't find any loads for a 180 grain bullet

[Nobade]

I'd go with 30-30 - brass is cheap and available, guns are fairly inexpensive, doesn't use a lot of powder or lead, and it can be run at full throttle with cast boolits. And it's super easy to find an accurate load.

30-06 normally needs to be downloaded to 30-30 levels or less to work with cast. With a custom 1:14 twist barrel you can run it to nearly full power but with standard 1:10 twist barrels accuracy goes away before you get close to full power.

[ksriverrat]

More important to me than caliber is capacity to shoot a lot as cheaply as possible. If I can achieve this with a rifle that also could double for defense it would be a plus!

Tomorrow I am off to find a good used Marlin 336 in 30-30. After reading the replies it just made a lot of sense given my criteria. Thanks fellas.

[lead chucker]

I love casting for the 308 win I am getting ready to experiment with a 200 gr hp. I wanted a heavy bullet for hunting and to also try to take advantage of the 308 potential. black bear and deer is what I want it for but I don't mind shooting at paper plates.

[lead chucker]

I also want to use 2400 and maybe unique, more shots per pound of powder. I make my own gas checks. I'm into cheap shooting. All the equipment you buy for casting and reloading doesn't count for the Cost of making your own ammo you know.

[Larry Gibson]

More important to me than caliber is capacity to shoot a lot as cheaply as possible. If I can achieve this with a rifle that also could double for defense it would be a plus!

Tomorrow I am off to find a good used Marlin 336 in 30-30. After reading the replies it just made a lot of sense given my criteria. Thanks fellas.

An older M94 Winchester will have a 12' twist which will be better across the board than the 10" twist in Marlins for cast bullets. I also suggest the longer 24" barrel in either rifle. If you are going to scope it check out the Winchester AE models.

Larry Gibson

[bob208]

i would say the .30-30 in a winchester is good but better would be the .32 win.spl. it was made to shoot cast boolits.

[ksriverrat]

Larry Gibson, thanks!
I was not aware the older 94s had a different rifling rate than the newer ones. You dont by chance know what year they changed do you?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry Gibson, thanks!
I was not aware the older 94s had a different rifling rate than the newer ones. You dont by chance know what year they changed do you?

All "New Haven" made M94 30-30's will have 12" twists. The japenese made and FN made ones in SC will have 10" twists. I don't remember the exact year Winchester shut down at New Haven.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

it don't matter much.
everytine i get a newer win i get rid of it, i have had some darn nice ones too,but keep on shooting my old one with the bubba'd recoil pad that don't fit.
it's bit grumpy at times but is accurate,feeds well and is already missing most of the finish.
i have no problems putting it in the trunk of the car, wedged next to the seat in the bronco,or if the dog steps on it.
the mold is the rcbs 150 fngc and the nose engages the rifling nicely with a little oomf on the lever handle.
the mold is a joy to cast with which might be why i like the rifle so much too.
the load is easy to load on the dillon,cases easy to get,and the rifle has good punch when needed.
the other rifle is a savage 340-a. same thing, i can swap rounds between them if i want to.
but i load a nei copy of the lyman loverign design for it, i can shove those well over 2400 fps if i want to.
i started using the same load of aa-2230 [24.5grs] i use in my ar's with jaxketed loads as a trial [cause i being lazy didn't want to change the setting as i was loading 223's on the other dillon at the time] and have stuck with it in the 30-30's.
it's in the 2k velocity area.

[stubshaft]

In my mind, based on your criteria either a 30/30 or 308 too.

[Marlin Junky]

Hey Fellas I am new here. Been lurking a bit prior to this first post.

I have some experience casting for handgun but with rifle zero. I was wanting advice for a good rifle caliber for boolits. I know some seem to do a little better than others.
The only criteria is brass needs to be readily available & relatively cheap.
What are some thoughts on the 30-06?What kind of velocity with a 180 grain cast? Open to all other options.....Thanks!

It depends on how hard you want to work to develop an accurate load, which in turn depends on your preferred loading techniques and the rifle's attributes more than what chambering is stamped on the barrel. Any .30 caliber chambering can either make a good or mediocre cast boolit cartridge. If you are just starting out, stay away from barrels with shallow grooves. If you want to see an example of a real cast boolit barrel, clean up the internals of an old 336 in 30-30 (one before MicroGrooves) and look down the barrel from the muzzle. Then compare that to something like an NEF Handi-Rifle barrel or a new Marlin 336 (in 30-30). This will illustrate the concept of extremes in terms of cast-friendly barrels (the cast friendly barrel is the one that looks like it'll get a solid grip on the boolit). Personally, I prefer bolt guns over lever actions, except for straight-walled cartridges, but I only neck size (which is an example of loading technique). After shooting many 180-200 grain boolits through a few actual Ballard Rifled 30-30's, (and impressing my shooting buddies... no brag, just fact) I geared up for a Pre-64 M70 in 30-06 and my early attempts almost had me convinced the previous owner had ruined the '06 by shooting corrosively primed ammo and not cleaning sufficiently. That was until I found how to fit a boolit to its throat properly. Now this neglected old M70 is one of my favorite shooters that routinely delivers better than 1.5MOA at 1800+ fps.

To answer your question more directly, if you are serious about accuracy, the 30-'06 is a good choice. I've never shot cast through a .308 but hope to rectify that in the near future.

MJ

[405]

Larry Gibson, thanks!
I was not aware the older 94s had a different rifling rate than the newer ones. You dont by chance know what year they changed do you?

ksriverrat,
Just FYI. IIRC the Win New Haven plant closed the doors about March, 2006. The Columbia, SC plant (FN) resumed Win production sometime after that. The Miroku plant has been producing various models for quite a few years. I have no idea exactly when the Model 94 twist rate change took place. All my Win levers are pre-64 (except a 70s Model 9422) so never kept track of the various changes.

[Pat I.]

308 hands down.

[Wolfer]

Depends on what you want it for. I've found it really easy to get decent or maybe good accuracy out of my 30-30,30-06,8 mm Mauser with 2400 and velocity around 1700 with boolits weighing 175/177 gr. all my rifles are 10" twist. I shoot a pretty soft alloy so you can go a little faster with a harder alloy.
I'm basically a hunter so if I was going to buy a rifle for cast I would want a slower twist and maybe a bigger caliber. If your just looking for cheap, fun shooting you can't go wrong with 30-30 30-06 308 and the 311041 or Lees 309 170 FP.

On reading my post it sounds like I'm saying you can't hunt with these guns but that's not the case. They are certainly capable.

[405]

ksriverrat,
If your criteria is simply cheap brass then just pick one where the brass is cheap. If high velocity is a criteria then you'll have a lot of work to do (you did indicate interest in velocity in original post). If it were me, I'd search gun shops, Gunbroker, gun shows, local classified adds, friends, etc. for something like a used bolt gun in 30-06. There are lots of older Rem 700s and push feed Win 70s out there for reasonable $. The 30-06 is fairly easy to load cast in and get good results. 1500-1600 fps with a 200 gr cast gas checked bullet is a fairly easy goal to reach with good accuracy. Look for bore condition- not lipstick.

[ksriverrat]

I passed on a earlier model 94 today. The bore was pitted fairly bad the last few inches. I have made my mind up to purchase what ever 30 cal. lever gun, with good bore I can find at a great price.

Hopefully I can come up with something with a longer barrel. Not so much for velocity. But I am hoping for a quiet plinker that will kill rabbit & deer.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

a Savage in 308 will have an accu-trigger, and shoot 150-200gr cast or jacketed bullets under an inch for five shots at 100yds. Brass and military surplus ammunition is readily available at a decent price. A 30-30 will be much less accurate, and you will not generally find much once-fired brass for sale. I just bought 3500 once-fired LC 308 brass for less than $200 shipped Priority Mail.

Casting/Reloading is a seasonal process for me here in Idaho. Where you live you will also have four to five months of winter. That is a perfect scenario (weatherwise) to allow you to cast boolets, and prep your brass. I have a Dillon 550B set up in 308 Winchester. In an hour I can load 400 rounds of my cast boolets. You can shoot an awful lot that way.

I also have a DPMS Panther 308 HB. Using a 9" paper plate as a reference target, I can empty a 20 round magazine and hit the plate every time while you are getting the 5th round off (and hit the plate every shot) in the same time frame.

A 30-30 lever action rifle is a great fun gun, or close range hunting rifle. There are just many better options for not too much more $$$.

regards,

Rich

[scb]

For cheap shooting the 30/30 is hard to beat. I personally prefer the 30/40 but rifles and brass are harder to find and getting expensive.


http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr236/scb2008/001.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

Idaho Sharpshooter brings up an excellent point; the savage M99 in .308W would be a very good choice also. They have 12" twists BTW:D

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

I passed on a earlier model 94 today. The bore was pitted fairly bad the last few inches. I have made my mind up to purchase what ever 30 cal. lever gun, with good bore I can find at a great price.

Hopefully I can come up with something with a longer barrel. Not so much for velocity. But I am hoping for a quiet plinker that will kill rabbit & deer.

A Pre-'55 336A (24" barrel) is just what you ordered... especially if you're willing to have a competent gunsmith drill and tap it to match the hole configuration of current 336's. If that rig won't shoot near 1MOA, you're doing something wrong. I've taken a couple of them to 2400 fps with heat treated 180+ grain boolits and they still held about 1.25 MOA... the 12" twist isn't that important if you've got aggressive rifling. Also, a nice old Marlin used to be easier on the budget than a "collectable" Winchester... at least a few years back. You'll need to see for yourself what the current market is like.

MJ

P.S. Here ya go, this is what I'm talking about:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=277774130

This guy probably wants a bundle for this particular gun but you shouldn't have much trouble finding a nice one in the northern plains or out west for 4-5 clams. They used to go for 3-4 skins, 10 or so years ago, but that was before Marlin's current production woes.

P.P.S. BTW, 311440 (see pic above) can shoot like it's got eyes through an old 336A. It'll shoot a group half that size at twice that distance. Sorry, Contender fan... no offense intended.

[white eagle]

I don't know how cheap you are or want to be
however the 45-70 is an ideal cartrdge to load and cast for
once you have the componenets they seem to last and last like an everready

[Marlin Junky]

I don't know how cheap you are or want to be
however the 45-70 is an ideal cartrdge to load and cast for
once you have the componenets they seem to last and last like an everready

Doesn't sound like he wants to sling that much Pb.

MJ

[ilcop22]

My favorite cast load is a .30-'06, though I disagree with the comment that cast 30-06 has to be brought down to 30-30 levels.

[ksriverrat]

cast 30-06 has to be brought down to 30-30 levels.

Depending on the how one goes about it I know thats not always true.

45-70 from what I know would be a great one for casting loads. Maybe later. Right now I want economy,both with powder & lead.

While also having the caliber readily available at most any place that sells the factory loaded stuff. Unless a really great deal comes along in an 30-06 it's between the 30-30 & 308.

[Dark Helmet]

308 in a Savage/Stevens, the new Ruger American or a Howa/Weatherby Vanguard

[hicard]

One great cast boolit round is the 358 Win. You can make it from cheap surplus 308 Win or 7.62x51 brass and start with 200 gr and even go to a 250 gr boolit. You will not be too far behind the jacketed bullets in velocity either.

[nicholst55]

On my 'bucket list' I have a project calling for barreling an already-bubbafied 03-A3 Springfield that I own with a 1:14" twist barrel, strictly for shooting cast boolits. I have a specific velocity goal in mind that I hope to achieve with this combo, but of course I want accuracy, as well. I'll probably chamber it for .30-06, just for simplicity's sake, but .308 might also be an option.

From the research that I've done, this rifle should be able to stabilize up to 168 grain J-words, too, if either the need or urge ever arises.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Many years ago, I got the itch to shoot Hunter Class Benchrest. I had always been a Roberts fan, so that is what I talked to the gunsmith about.

His simple suggestion:

build a tight neck (.332" OD) standard 308 Win. It's what all the top guys were using in the 1980's and 90's. He told me, once you make the top five every match, then come back to me and talk something different. I made the top five the second year at every match, but never figured out something else that would work better. The 30-calibers are still kings or the sport.

The 308 is still one of the two or three most accurate all around competition and hunting cartridges in the world. With the J-word stuff you can choose from 125 to 220 grain slugs and enjoy sub-moa accuracy out to or even a bit past a quarter-mile with the Savage, out of the box. For our galena-based projectiles, 150-220gr with a standard 11" twist can get you over 1800fps with sub-2moa accuracy out to at least 300yds. There is nothing on this continent a properly loaded 308 cannot kill cleanly. Load the NOE 311365 out around 1800fps and sub-moa, and you should have a great Prairie Dog killer. Or deer, or anything else...

Rich
the 308 is a perfect wheel, don't waste time and money trying to reinvent it.

[CollinLeon]

I don't know how cheap you are or want to be
however the 45-70 is an ideal cartrdge to load and cast for
once you have the componenets they seem to last and last like an everready

Agreed... Being a straight walled case, they tend to really last... I can cast and reload for my .45-70 for about $2 for a box of 20.

For 20 rounds:
$0.3946 -- powder ($85 for 8 lbs Alliant Promo, 13 gr per round powder load)
$1.1571 -- 405 gr lead (@ $1/lb)
$0. 30 -- primers (@$15/1000 for Wolf brand)

Want cheaper?

Go with a lever action that shoots .38 special or .357 mag... Powder costs go down, lead costs go down...

Figure 4gr of Alliant Promo with 110gr lead bullet:
$0.1214 -- powder
$0.3143 -- 110 gr lead bullets
$0.30 -- primers

$0.7357 per 20 round box or $1.84 for a 50 round box...

[ksriverrat]

J-word ?
Some one please explain?

[MT Chambers]

J-word refers to the dreaded "jacketed bullets", mostly an experimental bullet type that still requires alot of developing...believe me, you don't want to go there.
For plinking and target shooting, the .308 is king and is used by most competitors in CBA matches, production class.

[ksriverrat]

After posting I thought that may be it. Thanks for the answer.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
You cannot go wrong with the 30-06. The 180 grain RCBS flat nose gas check is still my favorite boolit. Feeds well in every 06 rifle I have. Bolt and M1 Garands all consure it alike with no fuss and good accuracy. Fastest I have pushed WW (water dropped) is 2400 fps. I could go faster but have no need to. Have not tried Linotype but I am sure that would get to 2500 fps easily. Aircooled WW will run 2000 in all my rifles. 50/50 I run up to 1800 or so.
I cannot think of any "running wild" critter you will see in Kansas that the 06 will not take care of.
Now if I thought I needed more power I would go to the 35 Whelen. It will do all the 06 will do but you can add another 30 grains more bullet. You can easily make brass from 06 brass.
Next step up would be the 375-06.. again think of another 30 grains of bullet on the heavy end. This one will work on any critter out there. Again just make your own brass.
So if you go 30-06 you will have all the rifle you need for probably all the hunting you will ever do. The other two steps up.. 35 & 375 are just frosting on an excellent cake.
Mike in Peru

[45-70.gov]

QUESTION???????????????

why choose 30-06 over 308 ?
seems like the extra /unused case capacity to be a negative

also noticed the 35 remington was not mentioned...[358 was tho]

the 30-30- to me makes the most sence
about right casecapsity
and the llllggnnngggg neck to keep powder off the bullet and lube

[shdwlkr]

Some one in this thread mentioned that they would take a cheap '06 if one came along. Well not sure what their idea of cheap is but I picked up one a few weeks ago for $250 to use as a project piece and just may keep it as an '06 go look for another project piece. You have to know what you are looking at when putting down your hard earned dollars.
I have shot several 30-30's in 20, 24,26 inch barrels and they shoot cast just fine, the '06 will also but you just might have to work a little harder to get it to do what you want. Part of the fun of loading cast in my mind.

One day I would like a .308 but it will more likely be the 7.52 Nato configuration and in a M1A style for old memories. Decades ago I had one and had so much fun with it but the Army would not let me bring it home something to do with what it could do when fired.

When thinking of starting out casting bullets I think a 30 caliber in any configuration with a 1 in12 twist is a good place to start learning. The down side is you will if you get the disease find that you need more molds, more powder and more range time then you did with J-word bullets. Then it comes up why not try another caliber and it starts all over again and one day you find you have more molds than you have places to store them and also that you are an old man and wonder who will get all you stuff when you are gone and will they enjoy it as much as you have?

[wildwilly]

If you attend gun shows, you will always find a Savage 340, in 30-30. And they will generally run within the $200 price range. Always been a diamond in the rough.

[Lonegun1894]

While I think the .30-30, .308, and .30-06 are all great, and you cant go wrong with any of them in the least, I will second the idea that was presented with the .357 Magnum rifles. I would include the .44 Mag and .45 Colt also, but .357 is cheapest on powder and lead, and has the most common brass. Depending on your actual desired range capability, I get 1850fps with 158gr boolits pushed out of my 20" Rossi 92, but have gotten a bit over 2100fps. I trust this rifle completely out to 150yds on deer/hog, and 200-225 on coyote. I also have the above listed .30s, and they all work great also, and do allow more range, but dont offer any advantage inside 125yds ove my .357 on the local deer and hogs, and I'd call them close enough to even between 125 and 150 to not matter. Now beyond 150yds, they do have advantages, but the .357 does all I really need inside 150yds, and it does it much cheaper, with less recoil, powder, lead, etc. Now I am somewhat prejudiced and can afford to be because most of my shots are at under 100yds, with the occasional 175-200yd shot offered, but with those, I haven't failed to get closer yet, so 5-10 minutes of "work" gets me in range, and allows me to do the same job cheap. If you want longer ranges than what I use, then the .30s start coming into their own and quickly outperform my little .357 due to the higher BC of the .30 over the .357, which may be an important consideration for you, but isn't for me. I hope the above helps.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I wouldn't get too hung up about the cost of brass and availability (within reason). Once you have 100 cases, it is going to take you a lot of shooting before you wear the brass out with cast boolits.

My choice, 30/30 or 308, but anything 30 cal or over will do the trick. The 303 and 8mm are very cast boolit friendly, but there are more moulds available in 30cal.

Your ultimate choice will no doubt be dictated by what rifle you end up with and /or can afford.

If you are financially challenged, the Mosin Nagents make a cheap, boolit friendly choice,as do a lot of bubba'd milsup rifles. They ain't pretty, but if they have good bores, and are cheap and you are squatting in fine cotton as one of the guys here says.

[Artful]

Hey Fellas I am new here. Been lurking a bit prior to this first post.

I have some experience casting for handgun but with rifle zero. I was wanting advice for a good rifle caliber for boolits. I know some seem to do a little better than others.

The only criteria is brass needs to be readily available & relatively cheap.

What are some thoughts on the 30-06?

What kind of velocity with a 180 grain cast?

Open to all other options.....Thanks!

Well, your getting good advise so I'll say the .30'06 is a good cartridge, as well as 30-30 and 308. I guess my questions are -
- what calibers are you casting for now?

- what do you want the rifle caliber to do that your handguns caliber can't do?

- What kind of rifle are you favoring? (Lever, Bolt, Single Shot, Semi-Auto)

You can generally get most any rifle to shoot a cast boolit. I'd suggest 30 cal and larger to make the casting easier. Pick a traditional mold design and keep velocities within reason and your usually good to go.

I'll throw out an example - let's say you cast for a 9mm or 357 handgun.
You can get the same calibers in a carbine or rifle. But say you want to throw more lead faster than your 9mm/357 cartridge will do it in the carbine/rifle.

Keeping the same caliber you can look at cartridges like 357 Maximum, 35 Remington, 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen. You can then use your existing mold for plinking boolits and buy a heavier mold for more power in the rifle. In 35 caliber I use 358 in a Savage 99 with reformed 7.62x51 NATO (aka 308 WCF) brass and boolits from little plinkers like

105 grain LEE SWC
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/440x330/primary/458/458304.jpg

up to NOE copy of Lyman 358009 at 280+ grains
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=4141

I cast a lot of 135-200 grain for dual use in both handguns and rifle.

You can do this with other handgun Calibers as well
44 spl/44mag - 444 Marlin (180 grn up to 315 grn)
45 ACP/45 Colt - 450 Bushmaster - 45-70 (185 grn and up) you might need to paperpatch .452 up to .460's

Lets you get dual use out of molds... :holysheep

As far as velocity you can push cast up there but for starting out in rifle's I'd suggest you don't try and break a speed record, keep it 1200-1900 fps and you should find some measure of success. :bigsmyl2:

[Four Fingers of Death]

That's good advice Artful, I neglected to mention what he was already loading and casting.

[45-70.gov]

my 357 handi rifle is the rifle i shoot the most
like said before the brass is almost if not the MOST COMMON if you count 38s
and 38s IS what i shoot most
357 mag is almost a 30-30 in power...[but not quite]


the the next best thing to ADD to this guns versatility
i reamed it to 357 MAX took 7 months to get the brass tho
but it stills shoots 38s and 357mags just fine

357mag is my daily carry gun.....so ammo is ALWAYS handi
my kids carry 38s in 842 smiths so ammo is always handi
they also have handi rifles in 357mag/max so ammo is always available

[Swampman]

I love the .30-06 but a .357 or .44 is probably better for cast boolits and pistol powdwers. .38 Special brass is free sometimes.

[Lloyd Smale]

my favorite cast bullet guns are the 35 rem and the 356. Biggest reason is i can not only use heavy bullets 200-250 grain for hunting but have the option of using 38 pistol bullets both cast and jacketed. Either are capable of taking anything from a big black bear to loading down so that a 8 year old kid can roll beer cans.

[popper]

I have a marlin MG 30-30 and a DPMS 308 carbine. I cast for both, accuracy is about the same for both. Both are rapid repeating guns, I don't like bolt guns. The 32 or 357, 44 would be inexpensive and about the same performance as the 30-30, for CAST. Advantage of 308 is the vast improvement in performance if you want to shoot jacketed. If you go 30-30, buy only new brass or ammo for brass. As you are getting a new (to you) gun, think about it's intended use to determine what you get.

[rintinglen]

Way back when, I started loading with a Lee loader for a 30-30. There are more powerful guns, more accurate guns, bigger guns, smaller guns, but none more cast friendly.

As far as brass goes, every year about this time the deer hunters pull out ol' Betsy and head to the range. I usually get one to five boxes of once fired brass for the asking, or for at most the cost of a half dozen reloads at the range I frequent. I see 308's and 30-06 s a plenty as well, but said guns are more likely to have owners who keep their brass.