reloadable .32 rimfire brass

[guninhand]

I got some of those machined cases for .32 rimfire from Dixie Gun Works. They take an offset .22 rimfire blank as the primer. The blank slips in place snuggly but with no resistance, unlike when seating a primer in a centerfire case where some force is needed. DGW says to use a lead round ball and some black powder. I'll be shooting it in an antique Marlin revolver. I'm wondering if anyone here has tried them out. I am a bit concerned about leakage of gas around the perimeter of the .22 blank's base.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/guninhand_2007/32rimfire.jpg

[odfairfaxsub]

wow this is amazing, show us a close up of the head on the case

[NoZombies]

I've used them, and I didn't have any problems with gas leakage. I found that the blanks were harder to remove than to put in place. I assume that they expanded some, helping prevent gas blow-back.

[plmitch]

I have never seen this before. Very COOL!

[guninhand]

Thanks NoZombies, it's nice to get some reassurance.

Odfairfaxsub, my camera is no good for macros, but the blank's base is about 4-5 thou proud. Apparently I'm getting zero headspace in my revolver, it's a tight gun. The projectile is 30 cal Hornady buckshot. I expect if I press it in a bit it will effectively flatten to .31, what DGW recommends, and be something of a heeled boolit as well. Might even try Crisco over the mouth of the charge holes. I'll have to anneal the cases first.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Dixie gun works has been selling the .44 Henry & .56 Spencer .22 adapter cases for years. In the Single Shot Exchange magazine, one fellow is even making .25 rimfire adapter ctgs. to get those old rifles talking again!

[rgbai]

or you could try this.

http://32rimfire.blogspot.ca/

[tomsp8]

Hope it's ok to resurect this thread...
I am thinking of ordering these as well, for a Stevens Favorite 1894 .32 long. Rather than black powder, since I don't plan on loading and shooting many of these and have no other use for black powder, I was wondering if anyone could tell me why IMR TrailBoss would not be an option. That, at least, I can use in some low power centerfire rounds. Planning on using Flobert style 22/6mm crimp blanks for ignition.
As well as Dixie gunworks, the necessary components can be found here: http://www.hc-collection.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?ActionID=67174912&PBCATID=335271&PBCATName=.32%20RF
The 11.00 trial pack converts to about 14.00 US dollars. I contacted them and was quoted about 10.00 shipping for several of the trial packs. The primers must be purchased stateside, however.
But again, has anyone handloaded these, and what are your thoughts on using TrailBoss?
Thanks

[NoZombies]

I have used trail boss with the conversion cartridges. I won't share my exact load, because every batch of brass has a different capacity, and the load that is fine in my brass might be a compressed load in yours.

So I would recommend starting by loading the case to about 70% capacity with the trailboss, and going from there. don't compress the load.

Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

[w30wcf]

tomsp8,
Welcome to the forum. I have used Trail Boss in the .32 Long Colt center fire in my 1892 Marlin. 2.5 grs filled most of the case capacity and produced velocity spreads of over 150 f.p.s.(!) Avg velocity was a little over 800 f.p.s. and accuracy was so so. By comparison, 2.5 /231worked much better, producing good accuracy and produced velocities equivalent to the standard cartridge (1060 f.p.s.).

That was my experience with Trail Boss in my rifle. Perhaps the minimal bullet pull produced by the heel bullet did not work in its favor.

w30wcf

[ZmanWakeForest]

I have never seen anything like this before either. This is very informative and has me poking around for more information.

[carbine]

Can you provide the Dixie part number?

[NoZombies]

Here ya go:

Reloadable .32 RF shells (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8154)

[carbine]

Many thanks!

[Chev. William]

Re: Trail Boss Powder use. Hodgdon says that the starting charge should be about 70 percent of the case volume minus the amount taken up by the bullet base intrusion into the case (Net Case volume). Maximum charge should not Exceed the the amount that occupies the Net Case volume, and in no case is it to be compressed in the load.

They also say that the best accuracy is found usually at less than maximum charge.

As the conversion cases and the blanks inserted can have variable remaining Net Case Volume, it would be a good idea to either measure all your cases with a blank inserted or stay down near the starting load charge.

As to using other Powders, be careful of the Maximum average pressure limit and your Firearm's actual strength.

Enjoy these older guns Safely.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Here is a link to a Blog on using .32 Long colt cases to make adapters to fire .27 Caliber Powder Tool Loads in antique revolvers and multiple barrel pistols. The Blogger include photos and at the end, a video of him firing one of his pistols at a firing range.

http://32rimfire.blogspot.ca/

Best Regrads,
Chev. William

[Chuck_ls]

After reading this post I turned some cases from brass rod and drilled them to accept the .27 cal. Power loads. The rim recess for my .32 Long Stevens favorite measures 0.050" and the rim on the Power loads is the same. I turned the rim on my cases to 0.015 at first and then to 0.010 but I still was not able to close the action on the cases. I am thinking of trying an offset recess for .22 cal. load, but that will require indexing the cases, which I was hoping to not have to deal with. If I can get a working case, I am going to make a healed bullet mold to finish the rounds.

Chuck

[Chev. William]

Chuck Is,
Measure the rim recess in your Stevens Favorite Barrel after Thorough Cleaning.
Sometimes the rim recess gathers 'crud' that reduces its depth and diameter slightly.
Once you know the actual depth and diameter of your recess you should be able to calculate what the total acceptable rim thickness and diameter it will accept.
Also does your action close on an 'empty' machined case that has not yet had the rim reduced in thickness?
I know Some .32 Long Colt Cases I have fit flush with the breech end of my Stevens Favorite .32 Long RF Barrel's chamber. I would think that your machined brass substitutes should fit a cleaned chamber properly before you reduce the rim thickness to take a Rim Fire blank. Also, are you using .22", 25", or 27" body diameter blanks (which body size)?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

RE: Trail Boss.

I shoot .32 Long Colt in my #4 Remington rolling block converted from rimfire. I use the Lyman 299153 bullet and .32 S&W Long cases that I convert to .32 LC, but are shortened to .775". The cases capacity of Trail Boss minus the depth of the heel is 2.5gr. I just loaded a few rounds last night with 2.0gr, about 80% of the full capacity. Previously I tried 2.0gr of TB in the .32 short colt case and it was quite mild. But the best accuaracy I've obtained so far was with 4.5gr of 2400 and the Lyman 299153 bullet. This is a very comfortable load and deadly accurate at 50 yards.

[Chuck_ls]

I measured the recess after thoroughly cleaning it out and then measuring with a Mititoyo digital caliper. The turned shells fit the chamber well as I turned them to the diameters shown in "Cartridges of the World". The .27 cal. blank in my case measured about 0.010 proud of the barrel face, which is the thickness of my rim. I don't think I can go less than 0.010 and get reliable extraction. My Favorite is tight as I just fit the action with oversized pins to take up all the slop. I am in the process of making a .22 rimfire barrel and breach block, but I thought it would be nice to be able to shoot the .32 Longs with a fast switch. Like I said, I am going to try offsetting the hole and using a .22 blank, but will have to get another project out of the lathe before I start that.

Chuck

Chuck

[Chev. William]

Chuck Is,
Converting between cartridges will entail changing out both the Breech Block and the Extractor along with the Barrel.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Chuck is,
A thought: try making one turned case without a rim and with a bore that is a couple of thousandths smaller than the .27 Cal Load diameter for about .200" in to the base, then widens out to over the .27 Cal load diameter.
I think that will allow extraction of the fired round because the load will expand into the recess in the turned case.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chuck_ls]

I have a new .22 barrel turned and ready to chamber. I have been looking for a .22 breechblock, but have not connected yet. They show up on ebay quite regularly, but most are pretty poor condition. I may end up just making one, but all the radius cuts will take quite a bit of time on the rotary table. I was wary of making the .27 power loads too tight a fit, as I would have to press them into the case and then back out in the field and that may be a chore if they press too tightly. I was hoping to have a half dozen cases and just reload them at the range. Thanks for the suggestions, it is always good to get a different view of the problem.
Chuck

[Chev. William]

Chuck Is,
The suggestion about the one tight case was to try it out before going to machining many cases.
From my experiments with .27 Cal Tool Loads, I know .001" to .002" 'interference' fit will still press in using a loading press and a .25ACP shell holder, they usually end up with the rim not seated against the brass case as the shell holder is spacing the case away from the rim. This could be solved by using a flat face piece on the ram for the last part of the act pressing the load in to the case. I am using a flat piece of steel above the case also to get it pressed onto the Load, so it is possible to 'juggle two pieces of steel and the partially pressed together Load and case to complete the process in a reloading press.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[kootne]

I use 32 long colt brass, drill it out just under 22 rimfire diameter (centered, not offset) face off the rim to about 1/2 it's original thickness, turn a recess for the 22 rim diameter (deep enough so when a 22 blank is pressed in I get my headspace back) Then I press in a blank, fill the case with enough 3f black powder so there is about 1/32" compression when I thumb seat a Lyman 299153 bullet which is hand lubed with SPG. When I use smokeless, the blank will unfold enough make it very difficult to remove but the 3f black (100+% loading density) prevents the blank from spreading out so far. These loads shoot 5 shots in 1-1/8" on demand from my Remington 1-1/2 rolling block with the original barrel sights. It has a large enough diameter firing pin that enough of it clips the 22 rim to give reliable ignition. I use CCI noise blanks for the primer. I'm guessing it adds a "duplex" component to the load as although it definetly fouls, it doesn't seem to be cumulative enough to affect long strings of shots. I would not advise these to be fired in weak actions but the 1-1/2 roller is pretty strong.
kootne

[Chev. William]

Very interesting solution for .32 Long 'RF' Rounds. sounds like you have a 'winner' for your Rifle.
I had not looked into the 'CCI Noise Blanks' so I will do that in the future to see if they can be used in my Stevens 1894 Actions to advantage.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[kootne]

I re-read my post and regarding 1-1/8" groups I see I failed to include the distance. That distance is 25 yards not the 100 yards that might be inferred. Sorry, it was a senior moment.
kootne

[ndnchf]

I re-read my post and regarding 1-1/8" groups I see I failed to include the distance. That distance is 25 yards not the 100 yards that might be inferred. Sorry, it was a senior moment.
kootne

That's very respectable grouping indeed. I'd love to have a #1-1/2 or #2 in .32. But I have a little #4 which is a lot of fun to shoot, but is a bit small for me. As mentioned a few days ago, I loaded up some .32 long colt with the Lyman 299153 bullet and 2.0gr of Trail Boss. I went to the range on Friday and tried it out at 50 yards. It shot pretty well. I fired 11 rounds, 10 out of 11 went into a group under 1.75". The holes are raggedy because the backer board was shot out behind it. But there are ten in that group at 6 O'clock. One flyer up and to the left, that I can't account for:x

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/20grtrailboss_zps9e0bed1c.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/20grtrailboss_zps9e0bed1c.jpg.html)

My usual load of 4.5gr of 2400 and the same Lyman bullet consistently shoots very well also. 5 shots here at 50 yards, about 1.75" group also.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/45gr2400_zps183af824.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/45gr2400_zps183af824.jpg.html)

I've shot it with Goex 3F also, it shoots very well with that too, so long as I keep the bore clean.

These little .32s are just downright fun to shoot!

[ndnchf]

All this talk of reloadable .32 rimfires has given me a further hankering for a #2 Remington rolling block. I converted my little .32 #4 RRB to centerfire many years ago. But I'd really like to find a .32 #2 RRB and make reloadable rounds as described here. The #2 seems like just the right size, not too big, not too small, but just right.

[tomsp8]

Well, figured I would chime back in with my results. Let me start off that I have practically no experience using blackpowder in metallic cartridges. An older friend at m work gave me a sample bag of some 3f and 2f powders.
Loaded 6 rounds with 8.2 gr fff and a cut down 22lr for ignition. 8.2 filled the case without settling. Very anemic to say the least!
Unfortunately, it took many attempts on each round to fire. Installed a new chisel point firing pin that is correct for the model 1894, took care of that problem.
Second batch I loaded with 9.0 gr fff and a .22 Duo-Fast nail gun blank for ignition. 9.0 gr almost fills the case when tapping to settle the
powder. The Duo-Fast blanks, I cut the crimp off and dumped the powder first.
Still rather weak, but pleasant. And very accurate....about an inch spread with 4 shots at 25 yards!
Unfortunately, i destroyed a couple cases "depriming" until I made up a little jig and punch set up. Think I might try a little
case lube on the blank next time, might help in depriming them....
Recently aquired some 32 short colt cases that I am going to attempt to convert as the gentleman did in the earlier link.
Really appreciate all the info this thread has offered!

[Chev. William]

. . . . .
Second batch I loaded with 9.0 gr fff and a .22 Duo-Fast nail gun blank for ignition. 9.0 gr almost fills the case when tapping to settle the
powder. The Duo-Fast blanks, I cut the crimp off and dumped the powder first.
Still rather weak, but pleasant. And very accurate....about an inch spread with 4 shots at 25 yards!
Unfortunately, i destroyed a couple cases "depriming" until I made up a little jig and punch set up. Think I might try a little case lube on the blank next time, might help in depriming them....


What was the power rating of the ".22 Duo-Fast" powder tool loads? If you can find some Grade 1-gray on brass, or grade 2-Brown on Brass loads you my not need to dump the blank's powder charge to use them as 'primers'; especially the grade 1 loads.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[mikeym1a]

I was looking for my .32 S&W cases the other night, and found 14 R-P .32 Short Colt Cartridges. I got them from the old sporting goods store that closed down 25yrs ago, Bills Sporting Goods. Never fired. If any of you want them, PM me. I don't have anything that will shoot them. Hope this post is not a forum violation. If so, mea culpa. So Sorry! My bad!

[tomsp8]

pm sent!

[tomsp8]

Using the Duo-Fast 20594 brown, power level 2. Think these are safe as a powder/primer combo? This is a circa 1900 Stevens rimfire after all, and certainly not built as strong as a Rolling Block.
Found this: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,48910.0.html that shows the original loadings at around the turn of the century using black powder. The 32 short and long
rimfire appears to match the loading of the 32 short and long centerfires. Longs: 90 gr heeled bullet w/ 13 gr black powder, shorts: 82 gr heeled bullet w/ 9 gr black powder.

[Chev. William]

Using the Duo-Fast 20594 brown, power level 2. Think these are safe as a powder/primer combo? This is a circa 1900 Stevens rimfire after all, and certainly not built as strong as a Rolling Block.
Found this: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,48910.0.html that shows the original loadings at around the turn of the century using black powder. The 32 short and long
rimfire appears to match the loading of the 32 short and long centerfires. Longs: 90 gr heeled bullet w/ 13 gr black powder, shorts: 82 gr heeled bullet w/ 9 gr black powder.

Tomsp8,
Your Stevens 1894 Action originally came with .187 Diameter Breech Block and Lever pivot screws made out of Low Carbon mild steel and are reported to 'shoot loose' with repeated modern powder loads. IF you use a Chronograph to measure Velocities try one or two first across the Chrono. If your rounds are at or below about 1100fps you should be OK with the original screws. I would suggest replacing the original screws with higher strength ones made from something like NAS High Strength Screws or bolts. this would give added safety margin in the 1894 action. The .32 Long size cartridges exert more breech Block Thrust (Rim area times Chamber pressure as a rough indicator) than the .25 or .22 caliber cartridges as originally loaded.
From my Reading and my 'Back of the Envelope' calculations, I believe the Grade 2 loads would yield around 650fps to 750fps muzzle velocity with no added powder above their normal charges.
If your velocity measurements give similar results, then I might try adding BP in to the Cases but go easy and used 'Fluff' or a tissue square to hold the BP in a Compact volume near the base of the Cartridge. be mindful of ANY 'loosening' of the action in use, as the design has parts of the pivot screws unsupported and subject to bending from the forces involved.

Will I be using Such loads in my 1894 upgraded actions? Yes, but with much caution and keeping in mind I am testing alternative cartridge designs to use in these actions with the same chambers as Stevens put in them. the main change is to try CF designs rather than limiting to RF designs.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Yesterday I made up 6 reloadable cases from .32 Long Colt brass. I made these to accept the .27 cal ramset blanks. My intent was to dump the powder out of the blanks and just use the rim priming compound to ignite my charge. I poked a small hole in the blank sealer and opened the hole slightly with an awl, just large enough to pour out the powder, then loaded one into a drilled out case with powder and a wax seal to make a blank I could test fire in the garage. It didn't work. Turns out the priming compound was too weak to blow a flame out of the small hole in the nose of the blank into the main charge, so it would not go off:( I then tried a couple empty blanks with no charge. They were so weak that I couldn't hear them go off. But when I opened the breech and removed the case, I could smell the fired blank and see a little smoke in the bore. The blanks are star crimped and I haven't been able to open them up fully to allow my charge to get inside. I may have to look for weaker (gray or brown) blanks to use with my charge. Or I could just try the blanks as-is, but without knowing what kind of powder is in the blanks, I'm not comfortable with doing that. Here"s a photo of what I'm using:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/IMG01040-20140104-1707_zpsc7169292.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/IMG01040-20140104-1707_zpsc7169292.jpg.html)

I was re-reading this thread and note that kootne made the same thing, but used .22 blanks centered in the case. I didn't think that the firing pin would hit a centered .22 case rim, but in his rifle it does. This would make a stronger cartridge because the .32 rim is not so weakened as when drilled for a .27 cal blank. I'm going to make one up and see if the firing pin of my #2 rolling block will hit the .22 rim.

[tomsp8]

My one modified case, so far, using a 22 blank centered (rather than offset) works fine in my Stevens . I did, however,
install a new firing pin, which may help. Mine has a chisel tip type pin, I believe they began installing a blunt nose style
around 1915. The chisel end type I think makes a difference.
I plan to use the blanks only as a primer, snippng the crimp off, and use the original black powder loadings, although I might try a black powder substitute.
I was prepared to try the .27 blanks, but looks like it won't be necessary for me. Didn't want to loose that much meat
at the rear of the case if possible any way.
My blank/primer is ever so slightly extruded from the case as well, rather than flush. Figured as long as the breach closes with minimal effort, i'm good. Every gun will be different in tolerances, I'm sure.

[ndnchf]

Glad to hear the .22 works for you. I tried cutting the star crimp off an emptied blank using a dremel cut off wheel. But about 3 seconds into cutting the primer went off. No harm or damage, just a surprise. That ended my cutting off experiment.

[tomsp8]

lol, I'm sure. I can picture that right now, and my wife just shaking her head!
I opened the star, dumped the powder, then used wire cutters to snip off the end to a length that looked good. My blanks are a little longer than the acorn style, sorta like a bottleneck case. I clipped just below the bottle neck, then just straightened it back out. Figured as long as the shaft area near the rim base stays true, and I can slide it in, I'm good to go. But if you come up with a viable/safe way to trim the blank as short as possible, I'd like to know. I'd love it to be only a few thou longer than the case head thickness.

[ndnchf]

Your way sure sounds safer! I thought about that, but was afraid the case would get too distorted by snipping. When I drilled out the cases to accept the .27 cal blank, I reamed the hole to about .002" over. The blank slips in easily. But to keep it from falling out, I take wire crimpers and ever so slightly put a tiny crimp/dent in the blank body just up from the rim. This slight out of roundness makes them a snug friction fit in the drilled out case. I'm going to make a trial case for a .22 blank this afternoon and see how it goes.

[tomsp8]

I drilled it out with a 7/32 bit, (.218) and used a metal dowl rod with med/course sandpaper taped around it till snug, and opened it up
to about .225 for a snug press fit. A little slow, but not too bad. A little case lube helps it to press in, and seems to make it easier to deprime without deforming the somewhat weakened rim of the 32 case. I definately wanted a good even seal to prevent gas blowback, just like a primer.
Then I used my case chamferer to open it up to the width of the 22 blank rim to allow it to seat almost flush. Crude, but worked as test to ensure that the primer would work and case would chamber. Didn't want the breach to "crush" the blank while closing it.
Working on a jig to hold the case and a drill press so I can drill the step at 9/32 (.281) and consistantly control the depth. Blank rim diameter is about .278 and avg rim thickness appears to be around .040/.045. I will hand pick the blanks I use to match rim thickness as close as possible if nec to ensure consistant total rim thickness on the completed rounds.
I'm currently using short colt cases, but on the lookout for some long cases on the cheap. What are you using for bullets?
I bought my original ones (modified offset drilled cases and bullets) from hc-collection out of France, but the bullets are actually oversized sightly (.316/.318) for my rifle. Had to size them down to about .313 to chamber freely. I only have 3 bullets left (Only bought the
pack of 12 to try them and test the rifle). But I like tinkering and would prefer to make my own, other than casting the bullet since I don't see the cost of a mold as being worth it for this project. Money is extemely tight right now, so cheap/frugal is unfortunately an absolute necessity for me!
Ultimately, want to have long cases, with the proper 90 gr outside lubed heeled bullet, loaded with black powder or bp substitute, just like
originally designed.

[Chev. William]

Jack Harrison sells both "299153" Bullets (90 Grain RN outside lube heeled) and .32 Long colt empty cases (resized Starline .32 S&W Long) on "GunBroker.com" (use a search for 299153 bullet and for .32 Long colt Brass to find the auctions.
"Carolina Cast Bullets" Sells the "299153" cast Bullets commercially.
There are other design bullets also available that are suitable for use in the .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt cases.
"Matt's Bullets" is starting to commercially cast the Accurate Mold "311090A" design of 90 Grain RFN heeled Inside Lube bullet. and he says his initial trials drop at .312" driving band diameter and .303" heel diameter.
"Old West Moulds" also has some designs that should work, mostly outside lube heeled designs.
They also make an adjustable Collet Crimp die and shell holder set that allow crimping the Heeled bullet design in .32 short and long Cases. I have purchased a set and they work very well.
There are probably many more sources that I have not run across so keep your eyes open and please report on any you find.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

ndnchf,
Have you tried the Grade three load as manufactured, with no added powder, in your drilled out case and with a 'wax plug'? I think from my readings of others uses it would actually send a Ball, or Bullet, out your rifle safely for the action and yourself. From my reading I would guess the result would be about 700fps Muzzle Velocity for a 90 Grain bullet.
Note that I have NOT tried this my self as I still do not have a rifle to shoot them in, my actions are still in the hands of my Gunsmith.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

My computer crapped out, so I'm working from my Blackberry and the wife's notebook, Please bear with me.

I made a .22 blank cartridge centered in the .32 case and it worked! I drilled out the case with a #1 bit which is about .227", a tad large for the .224" diameter .22 short case I used. I drilled the rim recess with a 9/32" bit. I left it so the blank would be just a little proud. I loaded it up with 3F and topped with a wax wad and tested it in my garage - BANG! It worked good. So I reloaded it and tried it a second time - BANG again:grin: Here's a pics of the .32 case and empty .22 short.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/IMG01057-20140105-1408_zps1f61431a.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/IMG01057-20140105-1408_zps1f61431a.jpg.html)

Here is the .22 blank case next to the .27 blank case for comparison.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/IMG01055-20140105-1352_zps6b7f2110.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/IMG01055-20140105-1352_zps6b7f2110.jpg.html)

I like the .22 better because it leaves a stronger rim. Plus home depot has the brown .22 nail gun blanks if needed.

I'm using Lyman 299153 bullets. A guy on Gunbroker named Jack Harrison sells the bullets and .32 Long Colt brass he makes from .32 S&W long brass. The bullets are pretty reasonable. The heel is .299" and the bands are .315". They weigh a little under 90gr. I make my own cases pretty much like Jack does, by sizing them down in 2 steps with dies, then turning off the roll of brass that is created and reducing the body diameter a little on a lathe. Then I ream the case mouth with a .299" neck reamer. Look on Gunbroker for his ad. If you can't find it let me know. I've got his email address in my notes.

[ndnchf]

Jack Harrison sells both "299153" Bullets (90 Grain RN outside lube heeled) and .32 Long colt empty cases (resized Starline .32 S&W Long) on "GunBroker.com" (use a search for 299153 bullet and for .32 Long colt Brass to find the auctions.
"Carolina Cast Bullets" Sells the "299153" cast Bullets commercially.
There are other design bullets also available that are suitable for use in the .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt cases.
"Matt's Bullets" is starting to commercially cast the Accurate Mold "311090A" design of 90 Grain RFN heeled Inside Lube bullet. and he says his initial trials drop at .312" driving band diameter and .303" heel diameter.
"Old West Moulds" also has some designs that should work, mostly outside lube heeled designs.
They also make an adjustable Collet Crimp die and shell holder set that allow crimping the Heeled bullet design in .32 short and long Cases. I have purchased a set and they work very well.
There are probably many more sources that I have not run across so keep your eyes open and please report on any you find.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Are the green blanks the grade #3? I fired one, but just as a blank. I've not yet taken the new rifle out to the range. Not knowing what powder is in them makes me shy away from shooting a bullet with them. But maybe I'm overly cautious.

[kootne]

Hi guys, I see what you are doing is similar to what has worked for me. I do thin the rims a little to leave the .22 blank's rim a little "proud" to ensure it gets hit hard enough. I too did not like the .27's because the .32 rim got too thin. I drilled my cases with a bit that left a couple thou press fit and cut my rim with a boring bar using a dial indicator to keep the depth the same on each one. After I got my rifle shooting I was made aware of 2 articles in the Single Shot Exchange, (july & oct. 2010) regarding similar projects for .25 &.32RF's. Those back issues are available to order. The author uses a slightly different machining proceedure in that he cuts his "primer" pocket with a .22 chamber reamer and squeezes his blanks to give the fit required to retain them. So there is more food for thought. Actually I think he is pulling bullets from .22 shorts for his primers but in the current .22 rimfire availabilty situation I'm saving my .22 ammo.
The only blanks I can get locally are CCI .22 noise blanks which are crimped to a point and if the case is not full of black powder they open too far (bell or mushroom) and are not easily removed. Filling the case with 3f black seems to provide enough resistance to prevent this.
kootne

[ndnchf]

Using a .22 chamber reamer to cut the cases would be the cat's meow. But as we've shown, it can be done with proper drill bits. Where do you buy the CCI .22 noise blanks?

Chev Williams suggested I may have a .32 extra long chamber. So I just took come careful measurements and it turns out he was correct - my #2 rolling block is chambered for .32 rimfire Extra Long. That is a case length of 1.15". Wow - that's a surprise!

[kootne]

I left out a feature that the SSE magazine author incorporated in his cases. He left the rims full thickness and milled a slot at the .22 rim depth out across what is left of the .32 rim. He then insures that slot aligns with his firing pin. I have not found this to be necessary myself.
I get the .22 noise blanks at the local gun store, for the last year that is the only .22 shells to found most of the time. I think they are used to train bird dogs to gunfire.
Remember that a heel bullet chamber is cut to include part of the length of the loaded bullet and the case, not just the case. Here is a good way to determine your case length; push a bullet in from the breech with a dowel or pencil til it just touches the rifling. Using the depth feature of a dial caliper,measure from the barrel face to the bullets base. Add the length of the heel and you have the maximum length your case can be. If this is longer than a .32 long. try reforming/swaging .32 H&R magnum or maybe .327 Federal to get your length. As long as you load with black powder I don't think there will be any problem in a #2 Remington.
kootne

[ndnchf]

I can see where the slot might be helpful to avoid rim damage, but I don't know that it is necessary. I measured the chamber exactly as you described using a Lyman 299153 bullet and came up with the 1.15" length which matches the length shown in COTW for .32 extra long. Now to find some .327 federal magnum brass to make my cases.

[tomsp8]

Loving this thread....! And the links to the heeled bullets is a big help.

[kootne]

I forgot to say, trim up one empty case to your determined length and make sure it enter the chamber and the breech closes before loading up your shells. Just to insure the chamber is that long and the bullet didn't go in that far because of an oversize or worn bore. The case will probably be .318"-.320" and the 299153 is probably .313"-.315". Otherwise you might end figuring this out the same way I did.
So now that we have them shooting again, wished I lived closer to better rabbit hunting.
kootne

[Chev. William]

Are the green blanks the grade #3? I fired one, but just as a blank. I've not yet taken the new rifle out to the range. Not knowing what powder is in them makes me shy away from shooting a bullet with them. But maybe I'm overly cautious.

Ndnchf,
Yes, Green on a Brass case is the color code for Grade 3 Powder Tool Loads.
I repeat the Color code below copied from another post:
"In brass casing:
Color-coding (Velocity)
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s) 1.31 grains propellant
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

In nickel (silver) casings:
(7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
(8)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s)
(9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
(10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
(11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
(12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"
I have also run across a Brass cased Blue coded Load but do not remember where I saw it or what it's relative Power level was.
I hope this list is of use to you.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Is anyone 'playing with the .32 Extra Short RF cartridge? It seems all the other 'members of the .318" case diameter Family' are now being actively shot again, pretty good for an Obsolete Cartridge family.
The list includes:
.32 Extra Short RF (case length .398")
.32 Short RF (case length .575")
.32 Long RF (case length .920")
.32 Long Rifle RF (case length .937")
.32 Extra Long Rf (case length 1.150")
.32 Short Colt CF (case length .650")
.32 Long Colt CF (case length .916")
Similar cartridges include:
300 Sherwood, .300(.295) Rook, .32 Extra Long Ballard, and .310 Cadet.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the clarification Chev!

[kootne]

Is anyone 'playing with the .32 Extra Short RF cartridge? It seems all the other 'members of the .318" case diameter Family' are now being actively shot again, pretty good for an Obsolete Cartridge family.
The list includes:
.32 Extra Short RF (case length .398")
.32 Short RF (case length .575")
.32 Long RF (case length .920")
.32 Long Rifle RF (case length .937")
.32 Extra Long Rf (case length 1.150")
.32 Short Colt CF (case length .650")
.32 Long Colt CF (case length .916")
Similar cartridges include:
300 Sherwood, .300(.295) Rook, .32 Extra Long Ballard, and .310 Cadet.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

I think in the case of .32 long rimfire the case may be that long if the bullet is a .299 inside lubed hollow base but if loaded with a heel bullet I think you will find original cases are shorter to allow for the approximately bore diameter portion of the bullet to fit into the chamber. As a practical observation, in some cases the bore diameter is large enough to allow the bullet to go far enough forward to use a full length .32 long case with a heel bullet. If that is the case, they may be more accurate and certainly more black powder can be added for more velocity.
I also think that .32 Long Rifle rimfire and the .32 Long rim fire with inside (.299 hollowbase) are for practical purposes the same vehicle with different bumperstickers. These are just my observations, don't have any reference material to back me up.
Also, some of you have noted and it is a concern to me also that the load be appropriate for the specific firearm. If I were to load for a Favorite or one of #4 or #6 rollers or any number of similar "weak" boy's rifles I would empty any smokeless out of the priming cartridge and just use black powder for the load. There is a very noticable velocity increase if I use use the CCI noise blanks plus filling the remainder of the case with 3f vs. dumping the smokeless out of the noise blank. I would not worry about the hotter loads in #2,#1-1/2,#1 rollers, Stevens 44's, Whitneys, Hopkins & Allens 932's, Low wall Winchesters etc. A lot of boy's type rifles are not even recomended to shoot Hi speed .22 LR ammo in. Please use discretion here, I'd just as soon not hear from your widow's lawyer saying I was responsible for a "unfortunate situation".
kootne

[Chev. William]

Kootne,
I agree that due caution MUST BE OBSERVED any time we are developing new loads for ANY firearm.

The use of Powder Tool Loads or 'Starter Pistol' blanks as 'primers' is definitely within the realm of New Load Development. The use of any 'blank' should start with determining it's performance without any added powder beyond what is in the 'Blank'. Once that 'Performance' is documented AND it is within the area of safe operation for the Firearm, then adding powder in small increments would be the normal development process. Going from a given Grade of Tool Load to the Same Grade with the remainder of the case filled with powder, be it BP or Smokeless, is NOT the normal Development route nor procedure.
That being said, What Grade Tool Load did you use with the full case of BP, and exactly how much BP was in that case? What projectile did you use? Did you 'Chronograph' the load?
From my Readings, I know that Grade 3 has been used by itself to send projectiles down range safely. and Grade 1 and Grade 2 have been used with added powder, both BP and Smokeless, also to send projectiles down range safely BUT not as a first test round. They worked up to the final charge weight slowly and carefully. With Smokeless additions, the amount was NOT full case loads after development, because the developer was interested in duplicating original performance up to about Sonic Velocities (~1124fps) or less, so as not to overstress original unmodified actions.

I believe 'ndnchf' is one who develops loads for his firearms with Due Caution.

Others, I have communicated with on other Forums have given me the same impression of Cautious Development of loads for their Firearms.

There have been some few 'Lurkers' who interject without learning what is being discussed before sending their 'Blasts" and I hope they Read and Know Who I mean. These Threads and Forums are for the exchange for information relating to experiments that are intended to develop SAFE and USEFUL methods and knowledge to get Obsolete Cartridges and Old Firearms into Shooting condition.

Best Regards,
Chev. William.

[ndnchf]

In my #4 rolling block I've been using .32 long colt cases trimmed to .775 and the Lyman 299153 bullet. The .32 extra long case at 1.15" gives 3/8" more length. They will probably hold 15-16gr of 3F, depending on case thickness. Fortunately, the #2 is much stronger than the #4, that's probably why the #4 was never chambered for the extra long cartridge. I just bought 400 rounds of .22 short. I pulled the bullets and dumped the powder from a couple of them to use them as primers. The priming charge seems stronger in these than in the Ramsets, which is good. Hopefully it will give better ignition of smokeless powder if I load some.

Believe me, I'm taking due caution in any loads I use in old rifles. I'm retired from the navy and currently work for the navy as a weapon systems safety engineer. So risk assessment and management is my business. The unknown powder in the Ramsets really makes them a wildcard in loading. At this point I don't see any reason to chance using them with the unknown powder.

[kootne]

The only "Ramset or nailgun blanks I have used are .27 grade 3. Please note with these blanks I machined the crimped end off with a narrow parting tool and dumped the powder. Those loads were loaded with straight black powder (3f goex from a can with lot #03-89 over 90No13C as best I can read it). They were loaded in cases measuring .780 long, I did not measure the powder except to insure it came to the base of the bullet with about 1/32" of compression. Basically a straight black powder load but surely less than original loads due to heavier brass and solid head.
The .22 blanks I use are NOT nailset blanks, they are CCI noise blanks for training bird dogs to get used to gunfire and I think are also used in some starter pistols. I do not think I have ever mentioned using nailset blanks, I don't have any and am not sure they are even available in my small town but if anything I have written gives the impression that is what I am using I apologize because I am well aware there is a lot of potential power in them as you go up in grade #.
I do not have a chronograph but it is no great trick to compare and differentiate approximate velocity by comparing the delay between "bang" and "thump" at a 50 yard berm. Here are my loads in order of developtement.
1. using .27 #3 Ramset with crimp trimmed off and original powder dumped, .780 case filled w/3f oex. 299153 bullet used in all loads. This load has a similar bang/thump lag to CCI CB Longs fired from 1906 Win. rifle. (CCI CB Long box says 710 fps)
2. CCI noise blank with crimp opened and powder dumped, case filled with black.This takes a bit less black to fill the case because the crimp wasn't trimmed from the blank but velocity very similar to load 1.
3. CCI noise blank unmodified (still has the powder), balance of case filled with black. Apparent velocity similar or possibly slightly faster than .22 LR std. velocity fired from same 1906 rifle as above. No sonic "crack". This load the actual weight of the 3f black is 8 grains in my load.
4. Same load as #3 only in a .910 long case will "crack" but does not get to the berm quite as quick as CCI .22WRF loads in 1890 win. (I have an old G&A magazine reference of 1270-1408fps for this ammo)
Note; I have not tried using the CCI noise blank or the .27 Ramset #3 as the sole propellant.

I can't tell much accuracy difference between loads #3 & #4. For lack of a better term at the moment I would say they are a duplex load in a similar to slightly higher velocity range compared to original loads. Traditional duplex loads are known to easily give higher pressures than straight black loads. My action is very robust compared to many .32's. I personally would not ever use or recomend adding any smokless powder beyond what comes in the CCI noise blanks. The potential for expotential pressure increase is well known with smokeless but much less with black powder. I think we are probably all saying about the same thing; light loads in weak actions, strong actions are inherently safer. As for myself I wouldn't shoot anything in most of the old .32 rf pistols I've seen.
kootne

[Chev. William]

It looks like we are all on the 'Same Page' in being cautious in our loads.

My only loads so far are using .32 Long colt case of .912" to .914" length, CCI Small Pistol Magnum (SPM) primers and case charged with 9 grains of 3fg GOEX behind a 299153 Bullet for use by my Gunsmith to Test a 1894 upgraded strength action. Due to my error in measuring the length of chamber in the barrel I left with the gunsmith, I had to run the finished rounds into a Seat/crimp die far enough to reduce the first and second driving band down to .299" diameter, the third driving band remained at as cast dimension.
I also made up some .25 Stevens CF rounds with 1.125" case length, CCI SPM primers and case charged with 3fg GOEX and topped with a .251" 50 Grain Cast RFN bullet. Again, The rounds are with my Gunsmith with the barrel to test with the 1894 Upgraded Strength action.

I have been experimenting with .25ACP both standard and lengthened cases but have NOT fired any yet. These are tentatively called .250ALR, .250ALS, .250ALRM, .250ALC, .250ALRE, and .250ALRx Basis for the lengths I have diagrammed with respective lengths of 1.050", 1.125", 1.250", 1.260", 1.350", and whatever I can get from a reformed .22 Hornet case whose starting length is 1.400".
The .25ACP case will hold 4.5 grains of 3fg GOEX with compression if loaded to an overall length of .850" with the 50 grain Cast bullet. This is the 'limit' compression I believe as the ONE I tried to compress to .840" overall length jammed the case in my Shell Holder and when I finally got the base out it had an imprint of the bottom o the shell holder 'relief cuts' in it. The BP had been compressed to a 'Solid Block' that I had to dig out with a fine tip tool to the last little bit.

My Experience with Powder Tool Loads has been in a Ruger Standard Automatic and a Marlin Model 56 rifle without projectiles so far. The pistol was fitted with a 'blank firing adapter and i used grade 7 Tool blanks in it that cycled the action very reliably in my use as a Training firearm with my Reserve unit in 1969 to 1974.
So far the Marlin has only been used to dispose of Old tool loads, firing at a Range with no bullets used and no blank adapter fitted as the Marlin is a Lever Action.

The .25 and .27 sizes have not been fired by me yet in any 'blank adapter' cases but I have been experimenting with assembling cartridges using .25 Cal Tool Blanks and .013" wall 9/32 OD Brass tubing swaged down to .276 OD. I am trying various methods to hold the blank in the tubing to allow also loading with a .251" cast bullet. The Rim is just large enough to allow chambering in a .25 Stevens barrel but I have NOT fired any yet, I still do not have a Strengthened/upgraded action fitted with a barrel back from my Gunsmith.

As to the powder used in the Tool Blanks, I do not know it's actual characteristics but I have read reports of others and I surmise that the Primer mixture and Powder used are None-Corrosive and 'Smokeless' as observed in their normal industrial use. The 'Dog Training' or 'Starter Pistol' Blanks I have no idea what they contain. Do they 'smoke'? Are they 'corrosive'? perhaps one of you could shed some light on this subject?

Kootne,
Your description of your loads 1, 2 and 3 tests and comparisons seem to indicate the bullets were all subsonic from the test rounds, while the 22LR standard Velocity round is supposed to be supersonic according to general factory data (you reported no 'crack' from the test rounds but a 22LR Std Velocity should have a 'Crack' but not necessarily a strong one).
Your test load number 4 comparison to the .22WRF sounds like it is supersonic but the present .22WRF seem to be loaded to around 1300fps from what I have read. Perhaps some further comparison testing with 22LR of various velocity loadings may provide a finer indication of relative velocity (time to impact in your testing).

Ndnchf,
Your descriptions of the conversion of .32 Long Colt cases to try with the various Blanks and Tool Loads have given me a 'curiosity bug' to try converting a few of the one box of .300 Sherwood cases I have to adapt each size of Load (.22, .25, and .27 Calibers) to experiment with.

My Experiments with the .25 Cal ones with Tubing are still in progress as I have not yet found a truly satisfactory way of positively retaining the blank in the tubing to allow subsequent processing. I may consider 'reversing the loading sequence', e.g.: inserting the bullet in the tubing before the Blank.
The .27 Cal blanks could chamber in a .25 Stevens but would need to be separate form the bullet (Breech loading?).
I have not addressed the possible use of .22 Cal. blanks in .25 Stevens yet but again that may be possible with either Blank adapters or tubing (more than one size put together before swaging to case OD). Alternatively the much longer process of reforming a .22 Hornet case then machining it to form a 'Blank Adapter case' could be tried.

This week I am On Call for Jury Duty, which means I call in each evening to see if I need to physically report to the Court House the next day.
So I am off my Union Dispatcher Call List for Work Calls until this Jury duty commitment is completed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I made some good progress on the .32 extra long last night. This case is 1.15" long, 3/8" longer than the .775" .32 long cases I use in the #4 rolling block. Here is an original UMC .32 extra long cartridge:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/UMC32RimfireExtraLong_zpsc0d43bcb.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/UMC32RimfireExtraLong_zpsc0d43bcb.jpg.html)

Through the help and generosity of another local Cast Boolits member, I obtained a supply of 327 Federal Magnum brass to use as the parent case for reloadable .32 extra long. I went to work on it last night. Here is what I came up with:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/reloadable32XL_zps28375f79.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/reloadable32XL_zps28375f79.jpg.html)

The 327 Federal Magnum brass had to trimmed to length, sized down in three steps, then put in the lathe and the base area up about 1/2" from the rim was reduced in diameter to about .318". They were trimmed again since they grow from all the sizing. Then the case mouths were reamed to .299" to take the Lyman 299153 heel bullet. That made the basic case that would chamber in the #2 RRB.

Next was adapting them to take the .22 rimfire case for ignition. Back in the lathe, the primer pocket was drilled out with a #1 size bit for a slip fit of the .22 case. Then the rim recess was drilled to a depth that allowed the .22 to sit just a few thousandths proud of the .32 case rim. Contrary to what I said previously, I decided to mill a small recess in the .32 rim for the firing pin. Since the firing pin hits on the very edge of the .22 rim, part of the firing pin tip hits the .32 case rim which is solid. This could reduce the blow to the .22 rim. So by milling a small recess, the full impact of the firing pin is applied to the .22 rim.

It sounds like a lot of work and it was. I made three cases as a trial and will go to the range in the next few days to try them out. if you look closely, you can see the milled recess for the firing pin tip here:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/3reoadable32XL_zpsd9518def.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/3reoadable32XL_zpsd9518def.jpg.html)

The discoloration on the cases is from the nickel plating that was partially removed in the conversion process. If the cases work well and the worn bore will put bullets in a decent group, then I'll try to simplify and better standardize how to make these cases. I learned a lot last night and have some ideas on how to more easily make them.

Sorry about the rather crappy photos, my regular camera was dead and I had to take these with my cell phone camera. Now, back to my day job:(

[Chev. William]

Ndnchf,
You are being Modest, the three .32 Extra Long Converter cases you made both look well done and the photos illustrate what you described in your text.
As to the Residual Nickel Plating, which appears to be mostly from the mouth of the case down to about mid length, it does make the cases visually identifiable as unique and custom made.
As to the need of the rim notch, perhaps just leaving the relief for the 22 rim shallower might reduce the need for it, perhaps by turning the parent case rim base slightly to further expose the 22 rim but still leaving a solid Brass Rim for the extractor to grab.
The 22 rim at most will only crush until the metal is solidly against metal in the rim interior, even less if any priming residue is left after ignition.

Next time you go to the range, please pick up some fired .22RF cases to measure the rim indent on to see how deep it really is crushed to in thickness compared to the rest of the 'as originally formed' rim. That measurement would give an idea of how much to trim the 'flange' of the converter case rim to allow full crush of the 22 Short 'blanked' case rim.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: the photo of the UMC original .32 Extra Long RF cartridge seem to indicate it is an outside lube, and possibly heeled, design bullet similar to the 299153 ones you are using in your rifles already. Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I'm trying to keep the overall combined .32/.22 rim thickness pretty close to the original .32 rim thickness. Headpace is a bit loose, so I can leave the .22 a little proud with no problem. I've ordered new hammer and breech block pivot pins and hope I will be able to fit them and perhaps take up a little of the headspace. After that I'll fine tune the depth and decide what to do with the notch. Another thing I thought about was making a new firing pin, but grind the tip to about half its diameter and shape it so it only hits the .22 rim. But that would weaken the tip somewhat and I don't know if it would stand up to repeated use.

Until I determine if the bore will shoot, I don't want to invest much $ into making the cases. If it doesn't shoot well, I'll likely have it relined to either .32 S&W Long or .32-20....or maybe even rechamber it for the original .32 XL. If I were to keep it .32 XL rimfire, I may buy either a .315" chucking reamer to make the .22 hole closer to the case size to avoid blow-by, or buy a .22 chamber reamer and use it to cut the hole and recess together.

The bullet in the original cartridge is almost a dead ringer for the Lyman 299153 bullet. COTW says the .32 XL uses the same bullet as the .32 long, it just has more powder.

[Chev. William]

I'm trying to keep the overall combined .32/.22 rim thickness pretty close to the original .32 rim thickness. Headpace is a bit loose, so I can leave the .22 a little proud with no problem. I've ordered new hammer and breech block pivot pins and hope I will be able to fit them and perhaps take up a little of the headspace. After that I'll fine tune the depth and decide what to do with the notch. Another thing I thought about was making a new firing pin, but grind the tip to about half its diameter and shape it so it only hits the .22 rim. But that would weaken the tip somewhat and I don't know if it would stand up to repeated use.

Until I determine if the bore will shoot, I don't want to invest much $ into making the cases. If it doesn't shoot well, I'll likely have it relined to either .32 S&W Long or .32-20....or maybe even rechamber it for the original .32 XL. If I were to keep it .32 XL rimfire, I may buy either a .315" chucking reamer to make the .22 hole closer to the case size to avoid blow-by, or buy a .22 chamber reamer and use it to cut the hole and recess together.

The bullet in the original cartridge is almost a dead ringer for the Lyman 299153 bullet. COTW says the .32 XL uses the same bullet as the .32 long, it just has more powder.

Ndnchf,
Where did you order the screws from?

". . . . .315" Chucking Reamer to make the .22 hole . . . . . " Is this a Typo?
I do not think a .22 Case is .315 diameter. Am I incorrect?

I agree with going 'slow and inexpensive' until you find out how accurate the barrel is.
I thought you said it had good rifling left in it. Am I incorrect again? What did the measurements of Bore/Groove diameters (from a 'Slugging' of the bore) come out as?
Perhaps I am just not reading the back posts correctly.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Typo - sure is, what was I thinking? I should have written .225" reamer. The barrel has rifling all the way, but a fair bit of pitting and roughness too. I did not slug the bore on this one yet. My #4 measures .3085" ish. I imagine this will be pretty similar, but since the bullets are .315" (maybe that's what I was thinking earlier:???:), I'm pretty sure they are plenty large for whatever the bore/groove size is.

[kootne]

ndnchf, I think your firing pin idea is the next level of genius here. I have made replacement firing pins out of W-1 drill rod for several old guns and they work fine even without any heat treat. If you feel the need to heat treat one I would suggest heating above the critical temperature (approx. where it goes non-magnetic), quench in oil not water and draw at 600 to get a spring temper. You can get an accurate repeatable temper if you have a lead pot with a thermometer. By using W-1 you can perform any machining process, if you don't heat treat it will last a long time (my 38/55 has several 1000 rounds on an untreated W-1 pin) and if you feel it's better heat treated W-1 is very easily done with simple methods. What I really like about your idea is the tip being turned eccentric to miss the parent brass all together because it does take a little beating where it gets hit on the overlap (at least with the heavy mainspring on my gun) and of course that damage is cumulative and we know all the effort it takes to make them.
kootne

[ndnchf]

For right now I'll stay with the notched cases, but a firing pin mod could come later. I made up three more cases tonight and loaded up six cartridges to take to the range. I used some noise blanks that had a crimped card rather than a star crimp and dumped the powder out. This allowed the 3F black powder to fill up the blank and case around it. I put in 13gr of 3F and that filled it almost to the base of the bullet, but I did not compress it. If I get a break in the weather in the next couple days I'll take it out for a test fire.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/6rounds32XL_zps9f89305f.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/6rounds32XL_zps9f89305f.jpg.html)

[Chev. William]

Ndnchf,
Those six cartridges do look Nice! What lube are you going to use?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I applied Emmert's lube after I took the photo. I typically use Lee Alox with my smokeless load. For the .32 long colt in the little #4 rolling block I've been using 4.5gr of Hercules 2400 for a very mild, accurate load with the same bullet. I thought about using the 2400 in these, but I really don't know where to start with it. My experience is mostly with BP. The can of 2400 I have is from around 1980 and still has the $8.95 price tag on it :grin:

[Chev. William]

ndnchf,
After you test with your 6 rounds, you might consider using the 4.5gr charge as a starting point for the .32 Extra Long (.32 XL) since it is being used in about the same bore/Groove dimensions and using the same bullet. this is base on my assumption that since this charge and bullet worked in a .32 Long Colt it should work in the larger .32XL case. Then work up slowly to a load that gives you your preferred accuracy and reasonable velocity for your Remington.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - 4.5gr of 2400 is a nice easy load in my #4. On the other forum where we've been discussing .32 Long Colt for the last few months, 5.0gr was suggested by one well respected fellow and used by him and others as a nice load in small rifles. So I'm thinking if all goes well with the first test rounds I may start around 5.0gr. Since this is a much stronger rifle than the #4 or other similar boys rifles.

Tonight I was reading through Nonte's cartridge conversions book, specifically looking at the .32 Ballard Extra Long (BXL) which is essentially the centerfire equivalent of the .32 XL rimfire. Nonte says 9.0gr of 2400 will give 1200 fps with a 100gr bullet. That's a lot more powder. Then looking at COTW at the .32BXL, barnes says 9.0gr of 4198 will give 1360 fps with a 115gr bullet. COTW also says the .32 XL was loaded with 18-20gr of BP (depending on manufacturer) and the same 90gr bullet as the .32 Long.

My cases a fairly thick, being made from the 327 Federal Magnum brass, so capacity is less than original cases. First things first, I plan to test fire it tomorrow. If it works well and I don't get much leakage from the .22 blank joint, then I'll make some more cases and load some with 2400 and maybe some with Trail Boss. Unfortunately I'm almost out of 2400 and have not been able to find any more.

[Chev. William]

Ndnchf,
I know that feeling about finding specific powders in the last year.
My local Reloading Store was 'very light' on powder selections most of the year, I Finlay was able to buy one pound of 2400 in November after repeated trips to the shop over the year.
It took me 6 months of trying to get a package of 1000 primers (Small Rifle) before I finally was successful.

The Huge Uptick in Component and ammunition purchases we have all witnessed this past year looks to me like it will continue but at a slightly eased rate in the coming year. Manufacturers are slowly increasing capacity beyond their multiple shift present production capability so I expect the problem to ease up as this increased production capacity comes on line in the future.

I have looked at Lowe's and Home Depot for either Grey (grade 1) or brown (grade 2) in all three calibers but have only found brown in one Caliber listed in their on-line catalogs. Strange, I remember back in 1970s that they were available in all twelve grades in 22 caliber in my Local Hardware Store. I had finally settled on the grade 7 ones after trying each load in grades 1 through 6 in my Ruger Standard Automatic to see if they would feed and cycle with no satisfaction.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Went out this afternoon and test fired my 6 rounds. Its a nasty, rainy day here, around 35 degrees. Fortunately I have a covered firing line so I was able to stay mostly dry.

For the first shot I covered the breech with a paper towel and then a towel. I didn't know what to expect for blowby or leakage at the .22 blank joint. Wearing safety glasses and holding it away from my face I fired it into the backstop. If fired just fine. Removing the paper towel showed just a very small amount of leakage. Here is the breech when I opened it:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/afterfirstshot_zpsb615a927.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/afterfirstshot_zpsb615a927.jpg.html)

The leakage apears to be blowby from the case mouth (I didn't anneal the brass yet). There didn't seam to be much, if any leakage from the .22 blank joint. So I wiped the bore and prceeded to shoot the remaining 5 rounds at a target 25 yards away. All rounds fired just fine. Accuracy was nothing special, but I didn't really expect much. This was really just a functional test and fireforming of the brass. The 1st, 3rd and 4th shots went into a decent a group a little over 2". But the 2nd and 5th shots went up at 11:00 O'clock. Not sure what happened there. But the bore is well worn and the muzzle is a little beat up.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/1st5shots_zps8fd6bd92.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/1st5shots_zps8fd6bd92.jpg.html)

But I'm very pleased with how well the cartridges worked. I'm going to make some more brass and get back out to the range soon. It is a fun little rifle:-D

[Chev. William]

Ndnchf,
Glad your test round worked well!
The 5 rounds fired at target may have spread from the results of unequal neck tension (causing variations in chamber pressure) from the reformed cases or possible disturbance from the Bore/Crown. It is apparent that more shooting is in your future.

In the mean time and just to add some information on your results, would you check the "Crush" of the .22 rim where your firing pin hit, is it flush with the cut surface you put in the case rim or is it slightly 'proud' of that surface? What is the thickness of the crushed rim as fired? What is the thickness of a separate part of the rim if you hit it in a 'dummy chamber' with a pin punch and a hammer? The intent of these questions is to know how thick the rim can be crushed to for future reference. Obviously you are crushing it sufficiently to cause the round to fire but how much 'over travel' would still exist.

Additionally, if you have any of the Powder Tool Loads you fired, would you also check how much 'crush' is possible on their rims? I believe they are made from a thicker wall than the .22 RF cases used for normal cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Its hard to get exact measurements in the crushed area but here is what I have:

Super X blanks: rim- .041", firing pin crush- .030" and still a little proud of the bottom of the machined notch. Crush on other side of rim with pin punch- .029" - .030" ( a bit distorted so hard to measure.

I don't have any .22 power tool blanks, just .27. But I had pulled the bullets from a few CCI .22 shorts. Here is how the CCI measures: rim- .041", firing pin crush- .032" (but this was in a .32 case without relief slot. The .32 rim was beat a bit at the corresponding location.

I then put this CCI .22 case in a .32 case with the relief cut and put it in the rifle and pulled the trigger. Then measured the dent at .031-.0315".

The bottom line appears to be that the rims are crushed as far as possible. Hit with a pin punch tended to distort and squish brass outward. Hope this helps!

[Chev. William]

Yes, it does. Now we know that the RF rims "maximum" Crush is about .030" thick, which would seem indicates a .015" thick wall at the rim area.
Since you are measuring the same rims, uncrushed, at about .041" I gather that indicates about .011 space inside that holds the primer mix.
Nice details to know.
With my Dial Caliper I get about .042" on a Ramset Grade 2 .22 cal loads.
A Ramset .25 Cal. Grade 2 load rim measures about .050".
A Ramset .25 Cal. Grade 3 load rim measures about .051".
A Ramset .27 Cal. Grade 3 load rim measures about .049".
Given the general measurement accuracy and the problems with measuring around the radius of the rim-body junction, I would surmise that the Ramset Cal .25 and .27 Powder Tool Loads rims are about .050" thick as manufactured. it seems that the .22 cal one is about the same as a standard 22RF cartridge rim.
Now if we could find some Grade 1 Loads in .22 Cal, which I have not found listed on any internet sales sites yet, it might be nice to try them as 'primers' without emptying the original powder, of course starting with no added powder and seeing what the Chronograph says the Muzzle Velocity is.
Unless I do find some Grade 1 Loads, in any of the Calibers, the lightest ones I have are the Grade 2 in .22 and .25 Caliber to try when I get my Actions back.

A new poster, "Broken Arrow", has posted to the "1894 Stevens . . . . ." thread on CAS City with some descriptions of his work with RF and CF obsolete Cartridges from .25 through .46 Calibers.
He reports some interesting firearms in his post.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I was thinking that the little .22 cal acorn blanks for starter pistols or dog training might be feasible with a black powder load. They are very mild. They may be similar to a magnum primer and help the BP to burn clean. Probably not a good idea in the little #4 RRB rifle, but the #2 is much stronger and it may work well.

I wanted to make a comment to those of you who are reading this thread and are interested in shooting an old .32 rimfire. You may look at my posts and think "that's neat, but I don't have a lathe, so I can't make reloadable rimfire cases". While having a lathe make it easier, it is not necessary. Once you have your .32 long colt cases or equivalent, all you need is drill press, vice, a #1 (.228") drill bit and a 9/32" (.281") drill bit. Gently, but firmly clamp the case in the drill press vice, center it under the chuck and drill all the way through the primer pocket with the #1 drill. Then drill the rim recess with the 9/32" bit. Drill just a little at a time and test fit a .22 blank. Go slow and easy until the .22 rim is flush or just a hair proud of the .32 rim. Use a needle file to cut a relief notch for the firing pin if needed for your rifle. Once you get things set up, its pretty easy to do. Most any gun crank with a little skill can make these cases. As they say "it ain't rocket science"

[Chev. William]

I believe Dixie Gun works lists the "Acorn" type blanks in the same area as the machined "RF adapters" they sell, but I have no tchecked their website lately to see if they are in stock.

Your summary instructions for making suitable adapter cases is very good.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - what forum is the 1894 Stevens discussion under? I've seen it before, but can't find it now (using a blackberry so things are not shown in the usual way) I'd like to see what this other fellow is doing.

[Chev. William]

In "CAS City Forums" use "Stevens Favorite" as a search term, the Thread title is:
"1894 Stevens favorite, Calibers .22,.25,.32, others, either RF or CF" and is
shown in "The Shootin' Range" area.
On my Computer it shows up at the top of the list with a relevance of 62.4%.
This one was started by me when I first joined CAS City.

Also the ".32 Long Colt ,Need Help" thread show up forth in the list with a relevance of 45.7%.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Got it - thanks. I hadn't thought of looking there. BTW, there are several web companies that specialize in selling blanks, most are less costly for the acorns than Dixie.

[Chev. William]

I will keep looking.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[tomsp8]

" I wanted to make a comment to those of you who are reading this thread and are interested in shooting an old .32 rimfire. You may look at my posts and think "that's neat, but I don't have a lathe, so I can't make reloadable rimfire cases".

ndnchf, you've read my mind! Been wishing I had a lathe and more precision tools for the last week! The finished rounds you
produced are certainly what I'm striving for. I have a few general questions regarding loading heeled bullets in general, but didn't
want to hijack this thread.

[ndnchf]

Tomsp8 - The hardest part of doing this is getting the .32 Long Colt brass to begin with. But with Jack Harrison selling cases converted from .32 S&W Long, that is pretty easily overcome. There is of course the reloadable Dixie brass as well. I don't recall what gun you want to shoot, but so long as it is .32 short or long, either of these will work.

I believe discussing heeled bullets is within the subject of reloading .32 rimfire brass. Over the last few months a number of us have been discussing loading and shooting .32 long colt with heel bullets over on the CASCITY forum, in "The Powder Room" section. I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to check out that thread. There are a lot of photos and details on how we did things, various bullets, loads and crimping. But also feel free to ask questions here. We all come here to learn and share information.

[tomsp8]

I, like Chev William I believe, have a Stevens Favorite. Mine is a model 1894. I started with the offset modified cases from HC Collections out of France. They sold me the cases with the heeled bullets already seated. Loaded with 3F blackpowder, 9 grains is about all that will go in. Pricey, but was able to prove the rifle was still serviceable. Didn't care for the offset, so thought there had to be a better way. Also, the bullets provided are slightly oversized. Had to "sand" the outside diameter about .003 to chamber. Money is very tight, figured I would do it myself. Just wish I could afford the dies. My procedures and yours are nearly identical. I signed up on the CAS forum last night and am awaiting my confirmation e-mail now. This has been a very informative and timely thread for sure. Don't know if you noticed, but I'm only 2-3 hours away from you, and my dad lives near you over in Locust Grove/Wilderness area in Orange.

[ndnchf]

Tomsp8 - I know the Locust Grove area. If you come up I-95 to Rt 3 to go out that way, you are only a mile or so from my house. PM me if you come up this way and want to stop by. Be glad to show you what I'm doing.

What is the diameter of the HC bullets, both the heel and driving bands? My #4 rolling block needs a .299" heel and thin wall cases to chamber, so I make my cases to fit them. Another fellow sent me some bullets he made from a new mold from Accurate Molds. They are beautiful bullets, but the heel was .304", too big for my rifle. But I put them in the lathe a turned the heels down to .299". I haven't had a chance to shoot them yet, but look forward to trying them.

Here's a tip that you may like. Lee makes push through bullet sizers in various sizes. I found that a .314" sizer makes makes a dandy resizing die for the . 32 Colt (or rimfire) cases with a simple, minor modification. I measued some factory new .32 Long Colt rounds and they were .315" at the case mouth. The .314" sizer is .001" too small, but.... it is slightly tapered up to the point where it measures .314". So by running a .32 Long Colt case up into it, it will be sized down. But the die is a little too long at the bottom for a .32 Long Colt case mouth to reach the .314"-.315" area. So I removed the bottom 1/4" from the die. Here is the shortened .314" die on the left and another as original on the right.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/314sizers_zps4ce5f2cf.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/314sizers_zps4ce5f2cf.jpg.html)

Now, I can size the case mouth as I want by simply adjusting the height of the die :grin: One note - the dies is very hard and can't be cut with a hack saw. I used a grinder to slowly grind off the unthreaded end portion. I kept a bucket of water close and cooled the die every 10 seconds. After I got it ground where I wanted it, I used a Dremel with a small grindstone to chamfer the opening. The best part is that these dies a very inexpensive. I think Midway has them for around $18. Hope this helps!

[tomsp8]

Now you're talking my language! Inexpensive, outside the box solution! (As in cheap! lol) Been trying to come up with a cheap way to make a sizing die but nothing was satisfactory with my limited tools!
I have some 32 short colt cases with the heeled bullets pulled, I graciously got from another board member (who actually is another
Virginian, Front Royal area). Loaded a couple of the pulled bullets in the few remaining HC cases, while I practice the case mods with the colt short cases. The pulled bullet heels are .299, but the HC cases are .313 outside with .11 case walls, so about .291 or so inside.
These cases have not been crimped. I chamfered the case mouth, used a Lee universal mouth flare die, seated the bullet using a 9mm
Luger seating die with round nose seating plug, then used a .308 rifle collet factory crimp die to reclose the bell/flair. To use the crimp die,
I took a small rod with enough tape wrapped around it to hold the case through the "primer" hole, then lowered the case upside down
into the die and crimped it closed that way. Seems to work. Bullet feels secure. Cases are barely snug to chamber, very slight thumb pressure, and extractor pulls the unfired cases out with no problem.
Ultimately will be using the long colt cases, but figured I'd practice the mods with the short cases. Don't want to sacrifice any long cases
while experimenting if I can help it.

[ndnchf]

It sounds like you are on your way with a system that works, that's great.

The newer brass is generally too thick at the mouth. They should be .008" wall thickness. I had the same problem. To deal with it I ordered a .299" inside neck reamer from Forster for my case trimmer. I size the cases first, then ream to .299".

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/reamingcase_zpsd8e82f72.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/reamingcase_zpsd8e82f72.jpg.html)

To crimp, I had Bernie at Old West Molds make a .32 short/long colt adjustable collet crimp die. He modifies Lee collet crimp dies so they are pretty reasonable.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/crimp-2_zpseee218df.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/crimp-2_zpseee218df.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/crimp-3_zps51a295f6.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/crimp-3_zps51a295f6.jpg.html)

I loaded some .32 Short Colt and shot them in my #4 and they were very accurate at short range. For bullets, you can't beat Jack Harrison's Lyman 299153 bullets at $18/per 100. His reformed .32 long colt cases are $18/per 20. Less than $1.00 per case sounds high, but it takes a good bit of work to reform them. I know because I make them the same way for my self. He goes by the name "tenmile" on Gunbroker.

[Chev. William]

Tomsp8,
Welcome to the group! This is a very friendly and informative group of people who enjoy the older firearms and cartridges. Ndnchf has mentioned Jack Harrison (tenmile) and there are others on both CAS City and Castboolits along with Shooters Forum and Ammoguide Interactive that have passed knowledge on these cartridges and old firearms along.
Another source of "299153" bullets is "Carolina Cast bullets".
A Commercial source for "Accurate Mold 311090A" Bullets is coming on line at "Matt's Bullets".
I am still looking for a commercial source for 67 Grain bullets to fit my .25 Stevens experiments, so far the closest I have found is again, "Carolina Cast Bullets", production of "Ranch Dog .25ACP RFN Cast 51 Grain bullets and various sources of FMJ 50 Grain and 35 grain ones.
The .25 Stevens shares the Bore/Groove diameters of a .25ACP SAMMI Barrel, but new commercial pistols of 2-1/2" to 3" barrel length seem to be on the high side of SAMMI tolerances plus being way too short fo ruse as a rifle. I did find a Barrel Blank at "Lothar Walther" that is the right bore/groove diameters for a .25 Stevens new barrel and is long enouh, at 23.4" length, to make a proper Rifle barrel out of.
"Track of the Wolf" does list a liner in .25 Caliber, but I believe it is .250"Bore/.257" Groove, not the .243"Bore/.250" Groove needed for .25 Stevens or .25ACP.
The .32 Long Colt seems to use Bore/Groove dimensions smaller than the .32 S&W Long or similar and closer to the .308/.30-06/.30 Carbine Calibers Bore/Groove dimensions.
My own 'collection' of Stevens Barrels Slug in the .30 range and so are 'tight' in relationship to .32 S&W Typical dimensions. My .25 Stevens Barrels all slug to nominal .251" to .252" Groove diameters. with Bores in the range of .244" to .246".

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[tomsp8]

I've seen that modified shell holder from Old West Molds. Just no funds for it at this time. That's why I was going down through the top
of the collet die. I happen to have one for .308 already and seems just about right.
I also have seen the bullets and cases on Gunbroker from that gentleman. I am definately gonna buy the bullets at least, but might have lucked into some actual vintage long colt cases in the next day or so cheaper .......
Now I see how you reamed the neck from your earlier description. Not much of a rifle guy, so no experience with that, but certainly makes
sense. Of course, my "ghetto" way was to spin the case with some 320 paper around the neck area to reduce it from the outside. Since I
don't have a way to size bullets right now, I used that same method to "size down" the bullets as well. The ones I got from
HC Collections were about .316/.317, too large for my chamber. .313 seems about right for this rifle.
I think I will be fine once I have a stash of identical bullets, and matching cases, to use as a fixed basis. Right now I'm loading some
pulled bullets from 32 shorts. I got the bullets and cases for free via a trade. :o They are the correct .313, with a heel of .299, but the heels are slightly deformed from being pulled from the factory cases that were crimped. My other quandry is preparing the case necks properly on those unfired 32 short cases with the crimp, without overworking them. But I have an idea I will try that just might work.....
Of course, purchasing those already made cases on Gunbroker would eliminate half of what I'm struggling with right now
I'm certain! But struggling and overcoming has it's rewards sometimes!

[ndnchf]

There is nothing wrong with crimping in your .308 die. If it works - great. If you can get original .32 LC cases, that is the best way to go. I had 50 rounds before and just bought another 100 off gunbroker last week. Plus 40 some odd I made from .32 S&W long. I've got about 100 shorts also, but I don't use them now. Your way of thinning the necks will get the job done, just a bit slow. Glad to see your creative thinking - its a good trait when doing this kind of work.

I don't recall if you stated your bore/groove size (sorry, but I'm working from a Blackberry and its tough to jump back to read earlier posts). But you can of course use that .314" push through sizer for bullets as well as case sizing. The next smaller sizer that Lee makes is .309". My #4 rifle's groove size is .308", so I got a .309" sizer also. If needed, you could open up a .309" sizer with 600 grit paper on a split dowel to a larger size.

For your case mouths, a 19/64" drill bit is .297". The drill bit shank makes a pretty good mandrel. Slip the shank into the case and then roll the case across a smooth hard surface, pressing down on the bit shank. It will do a pretty good job of ironing out any wrinkles in the case mouth. I did this before I made a .299" expander plug. Hope this helps!

[Chev. William]

Ndnchf and Tomsp8,
I cut the bottom of a Lee Push thru Sizer die in a lathe with a replaceable carbide insert cutting tool at my Friends shop. then 'polished the remaining 'forcing cone to sizing bore junction with a Dremel abrasive polishing tool. This was on a .329" diameter one that I wanted to use as an intermediate sizing die for .32 Cases. I only cut it down enough that the case rim OD just touches the forcing cone when the base is flush with the bottom of the die.

Now that Lee is accepting Custom orders again, it would be possible to order a .315" or even a .316" Lube and Size Kit fairly cheaply.
Also, I have a .32 Long colt (steel) Hollywood sizing die body that I ground the mouth 'bevel out enough to 'gather' the partial sized .32 S&W case into alignment to force it into the die without bending. This is now part of my case forming kit if I cannot buy more .32 Long Colt cases.

I still do not have the neck reaming items but I hope I will be able to get them soon after I get my 1894 Action(s) back in upgraded condition from my Gunsmith.

"Matt's Bullets" has sent me a package of samples he has cast with my "Accurate Mold 311090A" mold and some are lubed using a 'push through' lube system and others are lubed using a 'Lyman' tool.
The as cast unlubed samples measure .302" heel Diameter, about .310" driving band diameter, about .296" just forward of the driving band, .515" overall length, .195" heel length and nose length, and about .125 long driving band.
The 'push through' lubed ones have the heel lube groove filled with a thin coating on the heel lands and a ring of lube on the nose just forward of the driving band.
The 'Lyman Tool' lubed ones have lube filling the heel lube groove and lightly coating the heel lands but no lube on the nose.
From my prospective either is usable for my cartridges in my rifles but the 'Lyman' lube would allow 'cleaner' storage of the completed cartridges. Something like the difference in storage between .30 Carbine and .22 LR cartridges.
Ndnchf, you have used Outside Lubed and Inside lubed bullets in your shooting, which di you think is better under storage conditions?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[broken arrow]

Hey Chev. William,
Track Of The Wolf does have the correct barrel liner for .25acp.
I have one on the way for my .25acp rifle project.
Later,
Dave

[Chev. William]

Broken arrow,
I may have missed that lisating and will revisit "Track of the Wolf" again and look for it.

I do have a Stevens barrel marked .22 Long Rifle that has very thin rifling left in it, If it does not shoot accurately, I may have it relined to get it shooting better. But that will need to wait until I have an action back to try it with. The outside of this barrel is covered with 'cruddy brown patina' so I will need to clean and possibly refinish it for use.

I have two 'old' computers that I use for internet, the one I am suing today is the 'newer' of the two and has limited storage space on it. the older older one stopped 'booting up' over the weekend, but it has the storage space to allow me to 'manipulate' digital photos to attach to emails, so I will need to get running again, it dates from 2001 and is an HP unit.

This month is an expensive one for me as two different Insurance policies need renewing, my second property Tax payment is due, and there is a set of Utility and Telephone/internet/cable TV bills to pay, so computer repairs are not high on my list of projects at the moment. My 'Retirement payments' are not going up as fast as the taxes or utility bills so something has to be delayed, and my dogs get food even if I do not.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

FWIW - I put all the photos I post on photobucket and just link them here. Its easy to do and once posted to photobucket, they can be deleted from your hard drive if needed. If you want them on a computer later on, they can be downloaded back to your PC at a later date. Photobucket is free too.

[dtknowles]

For crimping you might look at coax cable crimp pliers. Might want to do a little modification to get the diameter right (the ones I have look real close) and maybe give them an angle. There are cheap ones and expensive ones but it looks like the cheap ones could do the job.

Tim

[ndnchf]

I tried using wire crimpers early on. I ground one of the openings close to size. But it pinched the case leaving high spots that prevented the cases from chambering. Old West Molds modifed crimp die works perfectly and is adjustable for both .32 short and long Colt cartridges. My .32 extra long cases are exactly .375" longer than .32 long colt or .32 long rimifre brass. I made a .375" tall bushing to slip over the extended shell holder. This allows it to work with my .32 extra long cases too! Worth every penny in my book.

[w30wcf]

ndnchf,
Nice work on your .32 rimfire! Neat! :grin: Historically speaking the .32 Extra Long used a heavier bullet than the .32 Long.......

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/32LongRifle.jpg

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

Thanks John! That's what I get for believing CoTW...

[Chev. William]

Thanks John! That's what I get for believing CoTW...
2nd Edition Ammo Encyclopedia also said 90 Grain for the .32 Extra Long, I wonder why the difference between these two references and the catalog data?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

I did some further checking (something I should have done in the first place).
There were different loadings for the .32 Extra Long cartridge.....hmmmm......

.32 Extra Long Rimfire
Winchester - 105 gr bullet / 20 grs. b.p. (after 1907) pre 1907 - 90 gr. bullet / 20 grs. b.p.
U.M.C. ......- 90 gr bullet / 18 grs. b.p.

.32 Extra Long Centerfire
Winchester - 105 gr bullet / 20 grs. b.p.

.32 Extra Long Ballard Centerfire
U.M.C. - 105 gr bullet / 18 grs. b.p.

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

That's a lot of powder in a small case. I put 13gr. in my experimental cases and could go maybe 14 with a little compression. But I'm hesitant to do much if any compression until I can make a shellholder that supports the outer .32 rim and the center of the .22, while leaving the .22 rim free. I obviously don't want to be putting any pressure on the .22 rim. I've been thinking about a shellholder design just for compression and think I can make one on the lathe.

[w30wcf]

ndnchf,
I did a bit more investigating regarding the bullet weights and modified my earlier post. Turns out that Winchester changed to the heavier bullet in 1907, before which they did use the standard 90 gr. bullet. The .32 Extra Long centerfire was a slightly longer case (1.24") and always used the 105 gr. bullet (W.R.A. & U.M.C.) It appears that after 1907, Winchester switched to the same bullet for the rimfire as they used for the centerfire cartridge.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

ndnchf,
Regarding accuracy, does the heel of the 299153 fit snugly in the muzzle? If not and the bullet is too hard for b.p. to bump it up, that may be the cause for reduced accuracy.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

w30wcf,
I checked my .32 barrels I have here at home and it appears I will have some 'accuracy problems' as the "299153" bullet heel slips easily into the muzzle of all of them. The "311090A" bullets heels on the other hand only go in part way, to about the 'top' of the lube groove.
My 'used' Winchester barrel in .32 short is the worst as the "299153" goes in past the 'lowest' driving band heel first and if I put it in nose first only the last part of the heel shows past the muzzle.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I checked both my #2 and #4 RRBs.

#2 - a .299153 heel goes into the muzzle easily and one driving band goes in too. Put it in nose first and again one driving band goes in. So I suspect some bore wear at the muzzle. I've only shot this once so far and that was to test the reloadable rimfire cases. But accuracy was not very good.

#4 - a 299153 heel goes in easily, but the driving bands don't. Tried it nose first and again, the driving bands would not go in. This rifle is quite accurate, about 1.5" at 50 yards.

The #2 is sounding more and more like a reline candidate.

[ndnchf]

Earlier I mentioned that when I drilled the .32 cases to accept the .22 blanks, I drilled them so the .22 rim was just a little proud of the .32 rim. After thinking about this and about making a shellholder to use with a compression die, I realized that leaving the .22 rims a little proud was a mistake. Leaving them proud could cause an inadvertent ignition while compressing the powder or even seating the bullet. So tonight I carefully drilled the .22 recesses a little deeper so the .22 rims sit .004" - .006" below the .32 rim. I think this will be much safer.

[tomsp8]

Will the firing pin make sufficient contact?

[ndnchf]

Yes, so long as the clearance notch in the .32 rim is lined up with the firing pin, it fires fine. There is plenty of firing pin protrusion. I also tried it with the notch NOT lined up with the firing pin and it did not go off. Because the firing pin straddles the .22 and .32 rims, The solid .32 rim absorbed the impact preventing the .22 from firing.

[tomsp8]

Ah, yes. I remember now that you said you were creating a notch. The HC collection cases I originally aquired are offset with a recess
similar that had to be at the bottom when chambered. I marked the opposite edge with a sharpie to make it easier to line up
correctly. your drill bit shank tip for "rolling" out the crimp on the factory cases with pulled bullets worked pretty well, by the way.

[w30wcf]

Chev William,
Based on your findings, it is likely that the 31-090A will shoot more accurately than the 299153 since it fits the barrel(s) better.

ndnchf,
Perhaps the 31-090S bullet might be more accurate in the #2 due to its larger heel diameter which means that it would need to be seated in the standard .32 L.Colt case (?). Great idea on recessing the .22 rimfire cases.

w30wcf

[uscra112]

Looking for raw brass to make .32 Extra Long - see Captech International (used to be Jamison).

Buy the .25-20 Single Shot Basic, which is nominally .315 base diameter. Not cheap, but they've GOT it, and it needs no sizing-down.

(The .25-20 Single Shot was made from a freakishly long .32 centerfire case called the .32 Wesson.)

[Chev. William]

Chev William,
Based on your findings, it is likely that the 31-090A will shoot more accurately than the 299153 since it fits the barrel(s) better.

ndnchf,
Perhaps the 31-090S bullet might be more accurate in the #2 due to its larger heel diameter which means that it would need to be seated in the standard .32 L.Colt case (?). Great idea on recessing the .22 rimfire cases.

w30wcf

I had been thinking of that when I ordered the 5 cavity "311090A" Accurate Mold to send to "Matt's Bullets" after trying the sample bullets you sent me in one of my barrels. I did order the mold made with slightly smaller driving band and Heel diameters. Matt measured them as cast at .312" and .303" before sending me samples to review and I measured them at .310" and .302" using a Dial Caliper after they arrived.
ndnchf needs the .299" heel diameter to use with his neck reamed cases as a larger heel seems to make his cases grow too much to chamber. I would like to suggest he look into ordering an Accurate Mold with the driving band and heel dimensions he needs.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added update on my progress:
"Matts Bullets" sent me samples of cast bullets from my Accurate Mold "311090A" 5 cavity mold that he measured as .312" driving band and .303" heel diameter as cast. Upon receipt I measured them with my Dial caliper and got .310" Driving band and .302" Heel Diameters, probably a difference in the measuring tools used.
Matt will be casting and then sending me 500 bullets, 400 pre-lubed and 100 bare for later hand lubing by me or for samples to send to others.

My two 1894 Stevens .32 long barrels purchased late last year differ in their chamber dimensions.
One measures .320" diameter, the other measures .348" diameter.
The .320" diameter is about correct for .32 Long Colt.
The .348" diameter is oversize for even .32 S&W Long and I will probably have a Chamber 'bushing' fitted and cut for .32 Long Colt.
I also checked the Winchester 1885 Low Wall barrel and it's chamber measures .322" diameter by .695" deep, marked ".32 Short". This barrel slugs at .302" Bore/.307 Groove diameters with a 'Loose' bore the last third of its length. I am thinking of cutting the chamber deeper to take .32 Long and turning the Tenon and Breech end to fit a Stevens Favorite action. This would yield a Tapered Octagon barrel of about 25-1/2" to 25-3/4" long. If it does not shoot accurately then I will think about fitting a liner to restore its bore to accurate condition, finished Caliber to be determined at a later date.

I have received two more Extractor/ejector units for the 1915 action, one was sold as .32 LR and the other as .22WRF. The .32 one is stamped "32" and measures 1.328" from C/L of pivot hole to tip of extractor. the .22WRF one measures 1.345" pivot hole C/L to extractor tip.

I have 4 Extractors on order from "Wisners" and 3 'broken' Extractor/ejectors coming from an Ebay purchase. So I may be able to work up the required ones to fit both my 1894 and the 1915 actions.
The"Wisner's" ones are all made as .22LR extractors and need to be 'trimmed' for use with any other calibers. I will not know the original 'caliber' of the Ebay ones until after receiving them.
"Wisners" said that it would be a few months before they make some combination Extractor/Ejector parts for the Stevens Actions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Tomsp8 - the Sharpie is s good idea, that little notch is hard to see. Glad the drill bit rolling helped.

w30wcf - The chambers on both the #2 and #4 RRB are tight. Even with my cases reamed to .299" which yields a case wall thickness of about .008" at the mouth, a heel larger that .299" will make it difficult, if not dangerous to try and chamber. After test firing the .32 xl cases last week I test fitted a .299153 to see how much sizing would be required. There was almost no expansion, maybe .001". Earlier I made a dummy with the Accurate Molds bullets you sent with a .304" heel and it would not even come close to chambering. So I put most of those bullets in the lathe and turned the heels down to .299". An Accurate Mold is likely in my future.

uscra112 - thanks for the tip, I was not aware that the .25-20 SS had similar base dimensions. I will look into it.

[ndnchf]

I did a little looking around after uscra112's comments about the .25-20 SS. This is very different from the .25-20 WCF. I found this photo on the net. The .25-20 SS is on the left and .25-20 WCF is on the right.

93590

93591

Here is the captech basic .25-20 SS brass.

93592


Not only would this be useful for the .32 XL, but for making .32 short or long colt and .32 rimfire short or long as well. It is a little pricey, but not too bad for quality brass that appears to need only trimming, sizing and fireforming. Very interesting. Thanks again uscra112 for sharing this information.

[ndnchf]

I tried to get a close up photo of the .32 XL rim with the .22 blank inserted and showing the relief notch cut for the firing pin. This is about the best I can do with a 10 year old clunky digital camera.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/rimcloseup_zpscc6b601e.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/rimcloseup_zpscc6b601e.jpg.html)

I cut the notch about.016" deep using a 3/16" end mill cutter on a milling machine, then cleaned it up a little with a jeweler's file. But this could be easily done with just a jewelers file too.

[kootne]

I checked both my #2 and #4 RRBs.

#2 - a .299153 heel goes into the muzzle easily and one driving band goes in too. Put it in nose first and again one driving band goes in. So I suspect some bore wear at the muzzle. I've only shot this once so far and that was to test the reloadable rimfire cases. But accuracy was not very good.

The #2 is sounding more and more like a reline candidate.
ndnchf, this discussion got me wondering about the fit in my rifle. It's a 1-1/2 Remington. The bore is pitted in the rear 8" or so and not shiney anywhere. There are 2 spots where a patch gets loose then tight again on the way through. I just tried the 299193 in the muzzle, nose first it goes in to the heel and base first it goes in till only the nose sticks out, so I'm guessing the muzzle is belled some also. So the best thing I can say is the hole goes all the way through. But with my 3f loads it shoots 5 shot groups 1-1/8" at 25 yards. May do better but my old eyes are not much better than that with with barrel sights. I'm saying all this to encourage expirementing, maybe there is a combination that will give you better groups. I think black powder helps bump up the bullets and the fouling helps tighten the bore.
kootne

[Chev. William]

Kootne,
Your post just goes to show that even a 'pitted, ringed, and bell mouth' bore can shoot reasonably as long as there is still rifling in the bore somewhere. My two 1890 Winchester in .22WRF are also well used and poorly cleaned in the past and will still shoot well out to about 100 yards as they both still show rifling most of the length of the bores.
I have Stevens Barrels in .22RF, .25 Stevens Long, .32 Long, and at least one that is 25-20 bore with a .25 Stevens long chamber. They have bore conditions from near new to badly pitted and one is very shallow rifling from looking at the Slug I drove through it. I still need to take them to the Range and Try each one before deciding what to do with them all. I just do not believe in 'writing off' a barrel just from slugging and visual inspection alone.
Back in my youth, in Navy Boot Camp, I was issued a "drill quality M1903A3" that had a Very Rusty Bore and chamber due to not being cleaned properly for an unknown number of Recruit Companies use. I wrote my parents to send me a set of cleaning gear that I could store in my "personal property" drawer and use to clean up the rifle. By the time we finally were ready to go to the Firing range for Familiarization I had that bore and Chamber cleaned out and had torn down and cleaned the rest of the action so when my Company Commander inspected it he asked what I had done, then said I could test fire it if the Range Safety Officer approved the Rifle. I was allowed to fire it for the Familiarization rounds and I hit the bulls eye with it. For Qualification I was given an armory maintained rifle to use and got 'Sharpshooter' score.
I don't know what happened to that rifle after I graduated from Boot Camp but I do know the M1903A3 showed me that even a 'poor' looking bore will shoot accurately enough to 'do the Job'.
Over my Career I was able to Qualify as "Expert" with a Very Good M1 Rifle and a .38 Revolver, the best I ever did with the M1911A1 was 'Sharpshooter' though.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I'm not giving up on it, not by a longshot. I'm just getting started. I've got 11 cases made, but would like to have 20 or 25 . That way I can make up a few different loads to take at one time to the gun club. I'm playing hooky from work today and will work on more cases. BTW, the other night I annealed the case mouths of the 11 cases and will do the same with new ones I make. I loaded up 5 rounds last night with a 299153 and 10.3gr of APP 3F which was a full load with maybe 1/8" compression. I plan to do more with Goex 3F also. I have both Swiss and Olde Eynsford in 2F which I may try. I normally wouldn't use 2F in the little .32, but maybe it will work in the 26.5" barrel.

Chev - I remember well those days in navy boot camp in San Diego. But I never got to play with an '03. I did get qualified as a small arms instructor and qualified expert in rifle and pistol. But that was when my eyes were a lot younger, I doubt I could do it today.

[Chev. William]

ndnchf,
I joined the Navy Reserve while still in High School in Dec. 1959, then opted for an Extended, 3 month, Regular Recruit Training during the Summer of 1960 and yes, I did go through the San Diego Recruit Training Center. I was back there in the early 2000s, well after the Center was closed due to BRAC Acts, and saw the base for a Training Seminar on Emergency Rescue. the buildings were still present but were showing weathering and had some vandalism, not a good ending for the facility, The Marine side was still active though at that time.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I made 9 more cases today, for a total of 20. That will give me enough to make a range trip worthwhile. I also have 6 or 7 .32 long (.78" length) drilled for .27 cal nail gun blanks that I will load with the Accurate mold bullets that w30wcf sent me.

I retired from the navy in 1998, but have been to San Diego a couple times since on navy business. I drove out by NTC/RTC and saw the sad remains.

[Chev. William]

This afternoon my Order of 100 ea R-P 32 Long Colt Brass arrived and my order of four "Wisner's" Stevens favorite Extractors arrived in the Mail.
I have already drilled out one extractor pivot screw hole, to .231", to fit my 1915 upgraded Stevens Favorite Action and tried it out in that action. It appears to be long enough to almost reach the Center Line of The Barrel/ Breech block as it completely hides the '22RF' Firing Pin tip/hole.
It looks like I have a long period of 'fitting' to do before these are 'ready for use' for my cartridges of interest.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Someone else has started a Thread on "J Stevens Favorite" asking for help with an old one he believes is a 1915 Series.
Please pass any help you can give to him.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Yesterday I was able to get some Lathe time in my Friends Shop and did the initial Cutting of Tenons on two Ebay Purchased Barrels. The Tenons are now the diameter to fit Stevens 1894 and 1915 Action sockets (.665" diameter) and about 1.550" long to leave some extra to allow adjusting head space and extractor cuts.

The First barrel was a Winchester 1885 'low wall' take off used barrel in .32 Short RF With a Tapered Octagon exterior. It slugs .302" Bore/.307" Groove and should finish up about 25-1/2" long. I plan to have it chambered for .32 Long RF/.32 Long Colt CF but slightly long to accommodate reformed .32 S&W Long Brass with "299153" 90 Grain heeled bullets (this reformed bras comes out about .93" long and the bullet has a combined Driving bands length of about .140" so the chamber needs to accommodate a round with about 1.08" or so body length).

The other barrel was a Stevens Model 44 Half Octagon-half Round style that the previous owner had 'bastardized' by beginning to cut a new Tenon that trimmed it where Manufacturer Roll marking now reads "J. Steven" instead of "J. Stevens A & T Co." and it is now about 22-3/4" long when finished. This is the heavier '44' diameter/Octagon so will be larger than the width of the 1915 Stevens Action and would be like a 'short Bull Barrel' for Bench Rest shooting. It presently slugs about .249" Bore/.257" Groove diameters so I will need to find some heeled 65 to 90 grain bullets to fit both the bore and work with some ".25 Stevens Long" sized CF cases I have made from .22 Hornet Brass. The Diameters would be about .251" heel and .258" Driving band(s) and RFN or SWC nose configuration.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Wayne Smith]

Chev, talk to Bernie at Old West Bullet Molds for heeled bullet molds. He has a bunch of them. He will be fascinated with your project, too.

[uscra112]

Occurs to me that the gas check shank on any .25 caliber GC boolit might be just right.

[Chev. William]

Occurs to me that the gas check shank on any .25 caliber GC boolit might be just right.

But would it be long enough? I thought GC heels were very short compared to caliber diameter.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[uscra112]

William - think on how you will locate the pocket for the barrel retention screw too. That has to be done before you can trim the breech end for headspace, because it's the screw nose in that pocket that establishes the position longitudinal of the barrel in the sleeve. Just got done doing this for a Stevens Model 12 Marksman. Tricky business. Job needs a guide bushing in the screw hole to guide the pilot drill, and bloody Stevens made it 5/16 -30 thread. Without a lathe it can't be made. It is not and never was a standard thread! Did they do that on the Favorite, I wonder?

Stevens wasn't alone. Just this afternoon I made the guide bushing for the Hopkins and Allen 822. It is 5/16-28. At least that was a standard thread once. Obsolete now.

[uscra112]

But would it be long enough? I thought GC heels were very short compared to caliber diameter.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

You might be right, but it's a start. Could be swaged longer with the right tools.

[Chev. William]

William - think on how you will locate the pocket for the barrel retention screw too. That has to be done before you can trim the breech end for headspace, because it's the screw nose in that pocket that establishes the position longitudinal of the barrel in the sleeve. Just got done doing this for a Stevens Model 12 Marksman. Tricky business. Job needs a guide bushing in the screw hole to guide the pilot drill, and bloody Stevens made it 5/16 -30 thread. Without a lathe it can't be made. It is not and never was a standard thread! Did they do that on the Favorite, I wonder?

Stevens wasn't alone. Just this afternoon I made the guide bushing for the Hopkins and Allen 822. It is 5/16-28. At least that was a standard thread once. Obsolete now.


uscra112,
I am not yet sure, but 16 pitches measures about .500" on the barrel retaining screw in my 1915 Stevens Favorite Action. The OD of the threads seems to measure .313" using my Dial Caliper which is close to the .3125" of a 5/16" thread. Perhaps I am reading it 'wishfully so I will need to find my Thread pitch gauge and 'double check' the thread pitch again.

This is the only sample I have at home so I do not know if it is common to the 1894 series or happens to be just this 1915 action by itself. I did buy two new manufacture ones from "Jack First" for the 1894 actions and they are with the actions at my Gunsmiths shop.

Also, I will need to work out some way to "Clock" the barrels so the Octagons will properly line up with the Action flats on top and sides.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Chev, talk to Bernie at Old West Bullet Molds for heeled bullet molds. He has a bunch of them. He will be fascinated with your project, too.

Wayne,
I have made purchases from Bernie before and, when I get closer to having the appropriate barrel ready to test, I will contact him about bullets and molds, and possibly one of his modified collet crimp die sets for the .25 Stevens Family, including my longer length experimental ones.

He already made me one for my .32 Long Colt projects.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

ndnchf,
I did a bit more investigating regarding the bullet weights and modified my earlier post. Turns out that Winchester changed to the heavier bullet in 1907, before which they did use the standard 90 gr. bullet. The .32 Extra Long centerfire was a slightly longer case (1.24") and always used the 105 gr. bullet (W.R.A. & U.M.C.) It appears that after 1907, Winchester switched to the same bullet for the rimfire as they used for the centerfire cartridge.

w30wcf

ndnchf and w30wcf:
Do you have the dimensions needed to make Chamber Reamer(s) for the .32 Extra Long RF and CF cartridges?
How would they differ from the Case diameters and lengths mentioned in your posts?
Would you both post what you know of Cartridge family dimensions and if they can all have chambers cut with a Reamer designed for the Extra Long cartridges?

I presume the 105 grain Heeled outside lube bullet ("299154" and "311090S"?) would have a longer Driving band area than the 90 Grain "299153" design which has one longer than the "311090A" design. Which would indicate a longer needed chamber length for the 105 grain bullet to fit.
I have also emailed "contact@loaddata.com" to request if they have any dimension and load information in their reference Library that they would share on line (Perhaps adding cartridge Drawing, history, and loads to their web site).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I am going to need cut the chamber in my "32 Short" used Winchester barrel as in machining the Tenon, it is now not deep enough to chamber a ".32 Short" round, it now measures .59" and will be getting shallower when the barrel is head spaced properly in the Receiver.

My hope is that the others reading this thread have enough information to share so I can order one Finishing Chamber Reamer that could be used for the full set of these cartridge families, both RF and CF, in the future.
In addition to this Winchester barrel, I have a Barrel Blank that also will need the chamber cut.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - I don't have chamber dimensions. But to determine case length for both my .32 long colt and .32 extra long rifles, I dropped a 299153 bullet into the chamber and let it fall to the front of the chamber by gravity. This put the front edge of the driving bands at the end of the chamber. Then taking a longer than normal case with the same bullet seated, I put it in the chamber and measured how much of the head stuck out. Then I trimmed the case a bit and repeated until the dummy round would just chamber.

For the .32 LC the case length was .780". I trim my cases to .775" to give just a little seating room.

For the .32 extra long, case length was 1.159", and I trim my cases to 1.15".

On the .299153 bullet, the distance from the front of the driving bands to the back of them (where the heel ends is .125". So adding .125" to .780" gives a .32 LC chamber length of .905". On the .32 XL, adding .125" to 1.159" gives a chamber length of 1.284".

An original RP .32 LC fired case from my #4 RRB measures .317" at the head and about .316"-.317" at the mouth. These extract easily so I would add maybe .001" to get chamber dimensions. My .32 XL cases are a little larger at .319" at the head and .318" at the mouth. Again I would add .001" to estimate chamber dimensions. But I will say that the #2 RRB in .32 XL is worn quite a bit more than the #4 in .32 LC. So I would go with the smaller dimensions from the #4.

Not what you are looking for, but I hope this helps a little.

[w30wcf]

The SAAMI drawing indicates a chamber diameter of .320" + .004" which seems a bit much since the case dimension is .318" - .006". If the case diameter is close to maximum and the chamber is close to minimum, then chamber windage is fine. However, with a max chamber and minimum case diameter = too much clearance in my opinion.

Fired cases from my rifle measure .320" diameter. Perhaps the best option is to use .003" over the unfired case diameter of the cases you will be using.

Depth of the chamber in my rifle is 1.06".

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/32LColtSAAMI.jpg


w30wcf

[tomsp8]

Well, I have factory unfired 32 long colt cases, (newer inside lubed bullets pulled) and 299153 bullets coming from Jack. The procedures for drilling out the flash hole and primer pocket for the blanks is no problem. B-in law got me a reamer to simplify the final fit through the
flash hole for a good, repeatable snug press fit of the 22 blanks.
I seated a pulled heeled bullet from some 32 shorts I aquired to determine case length trim. (.860 trim to length) (the heels on
the pulled bullets are kinda buggered so will fall out of the cases, but seemed suitable to determine necessary case length.)
Now, my question concerns inside case diameter versus bullet heel diameter. The factory cases seem to have rather thin
case wall thickness. Between .008 to .006.... Outside diameter is about .314.... Giving me an inside neck of .299/.300....
I haven't recieved the bullets yet, but assuming the heel diameter of .299, what should the inside neck diameter be to
give a good tight fit? Ideally, hoping for a tight fit to avoid the need for crimping. This is for a single shot Stevens Favorite as
mentioned previously. Will be loading with fff black powder, but might try Bullseye later on.
It was previously mentioned to use a Lee bullet sizer die as a case sizing die. I'm thinking I will need the
available .311 sizer in order to size the neck down some, but not sure of the ideal size difference between inside neck versus
bullet heel for a tight fit. Or should I leave the cases as is, for an easy seating of the bullet and think about getting the
modified crimp die from Bernie? Will the crimp die take the place of properly sized cases to begin with?
Just trying to get an idea of what to expect once I get the bullets to play with....

[ndnchf]

John - thanks for posting that drawing, I've not seen it before. Great information.

Tomsp8 - Once you get the 299153 bullets, I suggest you test case length again. Those bullets are likely a little different than your pulled pullets. For me, a snug sliding fit of the heel into the case works well. The latest batch from Jack measure .2985" - .2995" on the heel. My home made cases I ream with a .299" reamer. But now that I have a good supply of RP .32 LC cases, I don't need to ream them. I size the brass in the modifed .314" bullet sizing die and then use Bernie's crimp die. It works quite well. I made a .299" expander plug if I need to open up a too tight case.

Early on, before I had Bernie's crimp die I used a drop of chemical bearing retainer (locitite type product) and it worked very well also.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/securesgears_zps5a849656.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/securesgears_zps5a849656.jpg.html)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/droponbullet_zps38b4cba6.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/droponbullet_zps38b4cba6.jpg.html)

I'd put a drop on the heel, insert it into the case, rotate it 360 to spread the sealer around and let them set. With a little effort I could pull the bullets with pliers, so it wasn't too strong, but gave a nice tight grip on the bullet.

Whether you can just use a crimp die or if you need a .314" sizer and the crimp die will depend on how big your chamber is and how much case expansion you end up with. My #4 RRB has a pretty tight chamber, but I still run the case into the .314" die and use the crimp die. It works well for me.

I couldn't help but chuckle when I sat down at my loading bench this morning. The last 6 months I've been going back and forth between two rolling blocks; the #4 in .32 LC and a #1 in .58 Roberts. One side of my bench has all the dimunitive .32 LC stuff, and the other side has the mighty .58 Roberts components. The contrast is amazing. The .58 Roberts on the left and .32 LC on the right:

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/58vs32_zps27f622f6.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/58vs32_zps27f622f6.jpg.html)

What a versatile design the rolling block action is!

[tomsp8]

Love that picture! When I switch between 9mm or 9mm mak and then load my 45's, the 45's feel so big.
The thought of using some red or blue Loctite occured to me as well, until I can afford to gather more equipment
as/if needed. Glad to know that's an option. My cases are also R-P, and .313 outside. Figured the .314 sizer would
not be enough to size the neck area down?
So, ideally, if the bullet heel is .299 for example, the inside case should also be .299? That will be sufficient for
good tension? Figured on a slight chamfering of the case to ease bullet insertion, but was thinking case ID should
be closer to a thou or so under the bullet heel OD.
Guess I'll know more after recieving the bullets. Hate getting stuck on a project waiting for something, anticipating
more questions!
Thanks everyone for all the tips, and showing that this is certainly within anyone's grasp with a little learning and trial/error.
This is a great site....very friendly and informative.

[w30wcf]

ndnchf has a great idea with the loctite retention.:grin:

I find it only takes .002" for a snug fit in the .32 LC case. I find that the Lee .311 push through sizer works well with a .299" heel and the .314" Lee works well with a .302" diameter heel usin the R-P brass that I have.

The Lee push through bullet sizers are tapered at the start so to reach the sizing diameter the case need to be pushed in for at least 1/3 of its length after applying case lube. The lead in taper can vary a bit depending on the individual die so insert the case far enough that at least the the mouth of the case is sized back at least 1/8" to the diameter. The case does spring back .001" - .002" in resizing.

w30wcf

[tomsp8]

Been doing a lot of online reading concerning loading heeled bullets, but nothing seemed to answer that basic
question of neck tension. Thank you so much. Figured on the .311 sizer to give me the option of opening it up
if desired/necessary.
Can't wait to get the bullets so I can continue on.........

[kootne]

William - think on how you will locate the pocket for the barrel retention screw too. That has to be done before you can trim the breech end for headspace, because it's the screw nose in that pocket that establishes the position longitudinal of the barrel in the sleeve. Just got done doing this for a Stevens Model 12 Marksman. Tricky business. Job needs a guide bushing in the screw hole to guide the pilot drill, and bloody Stevens made it 5/16 -30 thread. Without a lathe it can't be made. It is not and never was a standard thread! Did they do that on the Favorite, I wonder?

Stevens wasn't alone. Just this afternoon I made the guide bushing for the Hopkins and Allen 822. It is 5/16-28. At least that was a standard thread once. Obsolete now.

Here is what I have done on my 44 Stevens. Clamp the barrel in mill vise with the bottom flat facing up. Screw on the reciever, use a good square to square it to the mill table. Either turn up a pin or use a pin gauge, large as possible and still fit the hole. Put the pin in the hole, indicate off it to center the hole under the spindle. Zero up your dials, remove the pin and unscrew the reciever. You can run the hole there or move your table 5 or 10 thou so the hole will help put pressure on the barrel towards the reciever. Note that offsetting the hole only works if the screw tip is tapered. The 44 Stevens I have is but a 932 H&A is not. If that hole is off the wrong way your barrel will likely never be tight. I also like the idea of loktiting the barrel in and forget about the the takedown feature because it seems a barrel loose enough to take down can easily end up being loose when you assume it's tight. Anyway, just my .02,
kootne

[kootne]

I am going to need cut the chamber in my "32 Short" sued Winchester barrel as in machining the Tenon, it is now not deep enough to chamber a ".32 Short" round, it now measures .59" and will be getting shallower when the barrel is head spaced properly in the Receiver.

My hope is that the others reading this thread have enough information to share so I can order one Finishing Chamber Reamer that could be used for the full set of these cartridge families, both RF and CF, in the future.
In addition to this Winchester barrel, I have a Barrel Blank that also will need the chamber cut.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

If you have the brass already and the bullet you will use, I would suggest assembling a few rounds without powder or primer and send them to your reamer grinder with instruction to have a minimum clearance chamber for that particular cartridge assembly. I have found with my rifle brass and bullet that the case mouth does not expand on firing and happily that mouth diameter is a snug finger press fit to the bullet heel. So nothing required for loading other than for de and recapping.
kootne

[uscra112]

@Kootne -

That's almost exactly how I am doing it, or would be if the mill were not in an unheated shed and the weather is cold enough to freeze bourbon solid. The Model 44 only needs a decent flat, the thread takes the thrust. The H&A and Favorite, (and my Model 12 Markman jobs), all need the hole dead nuts or a wee bit offset, as you say.

As far as chamber reaming goes, talk to Dave Manson. He will make you a "neck-and-throat" reamer for $50, which will do everything but cut the rim recess. That you can do on the lathe. Depth of the chamber is now entirely up to you.

(Deleted the taper pin idea - it doesn't work.)

[Chev. William]

The techniques suggested for locating the barrel retention socket for the screw tip will help me work out a set up to use my available tools. IF I can get setup time on my friends Mill, that would be the 'most accurate' way if I am lucky. As an Aside, he has Logan Vertical Mill serial Number 001, and it is still almost all manual drives and without Digital Readouts.

I am bidding on two Stevens Favorite Used (very) Barrel Retainer Screws at the moment with intent to check the two for thread pitch and then for fit in my 1915 action.
Uscra112 alerted me to the possibility that the thread pitch is none standard hence the bids.

IF one does fit properly I am thinking of converting it into a 'threaded bushing' to locate a Transfer punch body square to the barrel and receiver and with the barrel shimmed out about .005" tap a transfer punch to mark the barrel for the hole location. I will need to do this lightly as the Tenon to Socket fit is very close, a 'location fit'.
Positioning the barrel in a machinist vise for cutting the actual socket is a very good suggestion, but "indicating" in the position assumes precision measurement tools not presently "in hand". I am contemplating aligning the socket position using a 'needle point' chucked in the quill and good lighting with a magnifier to get everything lined up. This is not Optimum but it is possible and achievable at this time with both of our financial conditions. I am hoping the taper on the screw nose will be a 'common counter sink angle' to simplify my tooling needs further, but I still need to measure the nose angle of a coned screw tip.

On a separate area: I gather from my reading adn looking at drawings the Driving band 'lengths' of the bullets presently in 'play' are as follows:
"311090A" = about .100".
"299153" = about .125" to .130".
"311090S" = about .200".
These are all nominal 90 grain bullets.

What is the driving band length of the 105 grain one used for the .32 Extra Long (ExL) Cartridges, both RF and CF in later loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

What is the driving band length of the 80 grain one used in the .32 Extra Short (ExS) and Short (S) cartridges, both RF and CF loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

Just some of the questions that have occurred to me in trying to find all the dimensions of the various cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Using my converted cases the .314" sizer works great, but they are a litle thicker than the factory RP .32LC brass. Using the RP brass it works well when I use the crimp die too. I can seat the bullets by hand, then crimp them. But If I try, I can turn the bullets in the case after crimping, but they won't pull out. It works fine, but using a .311" sizer would allow the cases to be sized down to a .001" - .002" interference fit. In a repeater this would be prudent, in a single shot either way will work fine I think. FWIW, I still have a 1960s era box of gactory loaded Remington .32 LC ammo, using the hollow base bullet and long case. These measure .316" at the base and .3145" - .315" at the mouth.

[kootne]

Chev,
Maybe I'm not following the thought with the .005 shim but I think if you shim between the reciever and barrel it will put "offset" in the wrong direction. Tending to loosen instead of tighten in the final assembly.
If you are thinking about a needle point in the quill, I would suggest a "wiggler". Properly used they are quite accurate. If you turn up a threaded piece with a sharp point all machined in the same set-up and used magnification to align the wiggler point with your pointed screw (pointed end sticking out) I think you could achieve very good accuracy. Hope that makes sense, it is not my gift to make good word pictures.
kootne

[Chev. William]

Kootny,
Your observation is correct, and my thought was 'backwards' thank you for the note.

I was thinking of using the 'needle' point to adjust the table to quill alignment to center the 'prick point' left in the Barrel Tenon in preparation for cutting the socket for the screw tip in the Tenon.
If I understand your comments correctly you indicate I should buy and use a 'wriggler' to guide the positioning, is this correct?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

......... In a separate area: I gather from my reading adn looking at drawings the Driving band 'lengths' of the bullets presently in 'play' are as follows:
"311090A" = about .100".
"299153" = about .125" to .130".
"311090S" = about .200".
These are all nominal 90 grain bullets.

What is the driving band length of the 105 grain one used for the .32 Extra Long (ExL) Cartridges, both RF and CF in later loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

What is the driving band length of the 80 grain one used in the .32 Extra Short (ExS) and Short (S) cartridges, both RF and CF loadings?
What is the 'modern' mold number for its equivalent?

Just some of the questions that have occurred to me in trying to find all the dimensions of the various cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev. William,
Based on the illustrations in the Ideal catalog........the 80 gr. bullet has the same engagement length as the 299153 and the 105 gr. has about a .15" engagement length. As far as I know there are no modern mold numbers for either mold.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Chev. William,
Based on the illustrations in the Ideal catalog........the 80 gr. bullet has the same engagement length as the 299153 and the 105 gr. has about a .15" engagement length. As far as I know there are no modern mold numbers for either mold.

w30wcf

w30wcf,
Thank you for that estimate, I will assume it is correct unless there is a actual measured bullet 'out there'.

All,
It appears that the 105gr Bullet (Ideal cataloged as 299154) with a Driving band length of .150" would be the 'controlling' one for the maximum .32 Extra Long Chamber length.
So, the .32 Extra Long (ExL) RF with the 105gr bullet would require about a 1.300" minimum chamber length and possibly even longer for 'safety'.
And, the .32 Extra Long (ExL) CF with the same 105gr bullet would require about a 1.400" minimum chamber length and possibly even longer for 'safety'.

As ndnchf measures his .32 ExL RF chamber as about 1.284", I surmise it is limited to using the 90gr (Ideal cataloged as 299153) bullet in a case of 1.150" nominal length, which is what ndnchf reports he is using.

Does anyone see any problems with these estimates?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
The case head / rim is part of the cartridge case length so .05" can be subtracted. In other words, if the .32 RF case (using CF brass) is 1.150" long that portion in the chamber is 1.10" + .15" driving band length = 1.25" from the chamber entrance.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

I have been thinking that chamber length is measured from the Breech face datum, have I been incorrect?
And in photos, and my own Barrel samples, the cartridge rim fits into a recess, 'Rebate', in the breech end of the barrel. I do know that modern firearms seem to be more prevalent with the extraction rim held in a recess of the Bolt face rather than in the barrel end; but all of our example Single Shot rifles seem to have it held in the Barrel end, with the Breech Block flat and against the Barrel end also.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Today I got two pieces of Good News:
First, my Gunsmith called me to come in with any and all 'bits and pieces' I had acquired since I dropped off the two 1894 Stevens Favorite actions to be reconditioned. So I gathered up all the Barrels I have at home for the Stevens and the small parts I had picked up through Ebay auctions, etc. and went to his shop.
He had both actions mostly assembled with some missing screws and the two springs for one of the actions.
I had the missing screw replacements in my collection but he will need to order the two replacement springs. As to the barrels, we picked out four for him to use in fitting up the various parts; my 'Keeper' Stevens .25 Stevens, a good Stevens .32 Long, and two Stevens .22 Long Rifle barrels. I brought back home the remaining barrels for later.
He will complete the assembly of the first action with .22 LR parts and the better of the two barrels for initial Functional Firing Testing, then change to the .25 Stevens extractor and Barrel to see if the 'wedge' tip firing pin will work with both cartridges. This Action has faint Color Case Hardening faintly visible with an overlay of 'Brown Patina' so probably will be left as received without refinishing. It will go nicely with my 'Keeper' .25 Stevens barrel as is.
The second action was too dinged up and 'rusted' to leave as found so he Powder Blasted' it to clean it up and give it a 'satin' finish for later final finishing. Again it will initially be set up as a .22 LR for Functional Firing Testing, then reassembled with .25 Stevens Extractor and Barrel for further Functional Firing Tests.
There are Two separate '.22 LR Breech Blocks, one for each action, to be tested.
He had me bring home the better of the two Butt Stocks I had left with him and held on to an OAK Butt Stock and a Butt plate to be fitted to it. The Refinish my Friends son did cam out very nice and the oak has nice straight and tight grain. It has an Oil Finish now with a medium translucent 'Walnut' flavor color so it will go with the original Walnut Fore ends.
Later, we will be converting two additional 'spare' Breech Blocks to Center Fire. This will provide each action with a set of both RF and CF to allow interchange among calibers.

Second, I was informed that my 'seeping' radiator may be replaced at no cost to me or my Insurance company as both the Company who replaced it originally and the Company who manufactured the Radiator have Limited Lifetime warranted on workmanship and Labor. I will find out for sure next week, I have been told. This will be a real savings to my limited pocketbook.

On other projects:
Joe Mueller handed me two trays of 'fire crud coated' micrometers, Vernier Calipers, and Dial Calipers to be cleaned up. I have six Trays of dies I am still working on getting cleaned up for him also.

I trimmed the two barrel Tenons I previously turned to fit my Stevens Favorite actions to very close to final Head Space Length this afternoon, the Lathe in my Friends Shop was not in use so I took advantage of the time.

Next is to measure them again at a standard temperature to see if any more trimming is needed before setting up to locate the retention screw socket on the Tenons.

I have some research to do as my Gunsmith mentioned that my 1.070" long by .346" diameter Chamber (Barrel marked "32 Long") may be for a Ballard Cartridge. I had not heard of that before. I had heard of a Ballard .32 Extra Long CF. The Barrel Slugs .298'/.304" so it is very tight for a .32 Long Cartridge.
Perhaps there is some smaller ones known.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Good News: "AmmoGuide Interactive" now has listings for the .32 rimfire Family, from Extra Short through Extra Long. Thank you all for helping me get the information needed together to submit for the listings.

Now we just need to get some 'modern' loads listed with them.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[tomsp8]

Chev, saw the listing in Ammoguide (I have a subscription. Great value by the way for anyone considering it). However, the listing for the 32 long rimfire states original loading with 18 grains of blackpowder. Is this a misprint/incorrect? I thought 13 grains was correct on the long.
On another note, I recieved my bullets from "Mr Jack". As I feared, they fit too loosely for my liking in the cases.
I am using factory 32 long colt cases (inside lubed bullets, pulled). They have an OD of about .313, and an ID of about .300. The case walls are much thinner than "normal" on these. So taking the above advise, I ordered a Lee bullet sizer kit (and a proper size shell holder, Lee #4). However, I ordered the .309 sizer to be safe. Was afraid the .311 would still only give me about .001 +/- .001 neck tension. Figured I can hopefully polish out the
.309 sizer a thou or 2 if necessary, especially since I only need to size the neck area itself down a tad. I am really trying to get good tension without the need for any type of crimping.
I am under the impression that with blackpowder loads, good neck tension will give better burning characteristics?
On another note: I might be in possession of an old original Ideal tong tool with built in heeled bullet mold
marked 32 L soon..........This is the old style without separate dies, so pretty sure it will be correct..... :grin:

[Chev. William]

Chev, saw the listing in Ammoguide (I have a subscription. Great value by the way for anyone considering it). However, the listing for the 32 long rimfire states original loading with 18 grains of blackpowder. Is this a misprint/incorrect? I thought 13 grains was correct on the long.

Tom, You may be correct as the AG entry information was taken from a reading of the 1905 Marlin Catalog image posted by w44wcf on one of the threads. I copied the image to my WORD notes on the .32 Long and my copy is blurred slightly so I am not sure if it says 13 or 18 for the charge weight. Perhaps it would be a good idea to recheck the original postings in the Threads to see what is what before sending an email correction to AG support email address. Chev. William

On another note, I recieved my bullets from "Mr Jack". As I feared, they fit too loosely for my liking in the cases.

Tom, are these the "299153" bullets from J.H. who sells them on GunBroker? Chev. William

I am using factory 32 long colt cases (inside lubed bullets, pulled). They have an OD of about .313, and an ID of about .300. The case walls are much thinner than "normal" on these. So taking the above advise, I ordered a Lee bullet sizer kit (and a proper size shell holder, Lee #4). However, I ordered the .309 sizer to be safe. Was afraid the .311 would still only give me about .001 +/- .001 neck tension. Figured I can hopefully polish out the .309 sizer a thou or 2 if necessary, especially since I only need to size the neck area itself down a tad. I am really trying to get good tension without the need for any type of crimping.

Tom, That sounds like a reasonable plan but I believe it may be difficult to Polish the Hardened die much without loosing the wear resistance of the hardening process. Chev. William

I am under the impression that with blackpowder loads, good neck tension will give better burning characteristics?

I do not have enough experience with BP in these sizes to give an opinion yet, perhaps "w44wcf" will comment? Chev. William

On another note: I might be in possession of an old original Ideal tong tool with built in heeled bullet mold
marked 32 L soon..........This is the old style without separate dies, so pretty sure it will be correct..... :grin:

Tom, You got a good catch with the Ideal combination tool from everything I have read to date, Congratulations! Chev. William

I am going ot be delivering a walker to an Old Friend today, about a 150 mile round trip, so will be off the air until much later today.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Tomsp8 - I think the Lee .309" sizer will work well, so long as you can get the case about 1/2 way into the die. That will depend on the amount of taper. I have a .309" Lee sizer at home. I'm at work now, but will check the fit of a new RP .32LC case in it when I get home. I can also check with an original .32SC case.

[tomsp8]

nd, that'd be great. Chev, yes using the 299153 mold. Wasn't really sure how hardened these dies were, since they are only designed for sizing lead. Figured they would polish out/open up reasonably easily, but may be wrong. Was afraid the .311 die would not get me where I want to be. Really surprised at how thin the cases are. I put a slight burr on one case, enough to hold a bullet, and tested case length with these bullets. Had to trim to .810 to keep the bullet from "sticking", a lot shorter than I had expected. Cleaned the chamber/throat real
well first using some Birchwood Casey lead removing cloth patches. (Those things are amazing, by the way).
Again, this is a Stevens Favorite 32L model 1894.

[ndnchf]

These dies are very hard. When I shortened my .314" sizer, I tried to cut it back on the lathe using a carbide bit, it wouldn't touch it. I had to grind it down with frequent quenchings. But you should be able to open it up if needed using a split dowel, 320 grit paper and oil in an electric drill.

[tomsp8]

That's exactly how I planned to do it. Are they tapered at the entrance end? I should have the sizer
by Tuesday......waiting once again......lol

[ndnchf]

tomsp8 - I measured the entrance into my .309" Lee sizer die. It is about .319", and it is tapered from the entrance down to the .309" diameter about 3/4" - 1" up inside. A .32 LC case goes in about 3/8" by hand. I didn't try to size it, but I see no reason that it won't work. You may not need to grind the end shorter, but you'll just have to try it. Since its tapered, the amount the case is sized down will depend on how far you run the case into it. If you can't run it in far enough, then grind some off the bottom of the die. That will let you run it in further.

[tomsp8]

nd,
Thanks so much! Sounds like I'll be off and running in a few days finally.

[tomsp8]

Good news, .309 sizing die & shell holder arrived today. In playing with it briefly, looks like it
will be a go! I can just seat the bullet on the case (chamfered the inside opening) and seated with
the press. (Using a 9 luger seating die with RN stem....smallest I have). Bullet is nice and tight. I can
physically pull the bullet out with twisting and effort, no crimp of course, but with soft lead and only
the heel length for bullet retention, I think that should be considered normal/as good as it gets. I may
still think about the custom crimp die that has been mentioned, but will see how these go. Interested in
other's results in accuracy with the only variable being tight press fit or tight press fit and crimped, or even
using the loktite method in place of crimping.
My blanks/primers are trimmed to length so that they do not extend into the case beyond the drilled
out flash hole, to maximize powder capacity.
Two questions:
1- case length: I removed the barrel and trimmed a case (put a slight burr on it to hold a bullet) with a seated
bullet and did the "plunk test" similar to finding one's coal for a semi-auto pistol. Trimmed the case in small
amounts until the cartridge would not "stick" at the driving bands. I ended up with a case length of .812 or so.
So I trimmed my first 15 cases to .800 for fouling allowance/insurance. But I believe .780 was mentioned
earlier. Am I ok with my results and how I determined them?
2- Black powder charge: To determine maximum case fill, should I fill the case while tapping it to settle, almost to the rim, then allow the bullet to compress it upon seating? Or if no compression is nec, I considered seating
the bullet first then filling powder thru the flash hole to full and then seating the blank/primer. But would prefer
to seat the bullet over the powder, for sure.
* Reminder: Stevens Favorite, 32 long RF, Ideal 299653 bullet, unfired factory RP cases modified.

[ndnchf]

Sounds like you are getting close to shooting it!

.780" case length was a standard of the day, but chambers varied, so the cases were made to fit the shortest chambers. If you can seat, close the breech and extract without difficulty, then it should be fine. My chamber is on the shorter side. A .780" case worked, but it left little room for fouling, so I went .005" shorter to .775".

I found no noticeable difference in accuracy between the loctite crimp and the collet crimp. But no crimp at all was not as good.

With my reloadable rimfire cases, I poured the powder in from the mouth, using a 24" drop tube and then tapped it to settle the powder further. I was concerned about compressing it with the .22 blank in place and putting pressure on the blank's rim. So I held the case in my hand and used a dowel to compress the powder, then seated the bullet by hand. .050" - .100" compression is good if you can get it. Just compressing by hand , you can get around .050". Eventually, I may make a shell holder that supports the outer .32 cal rim and center of the .22 blank, while leaving the rim of the .22 blank free. That way the I can safely put pressure on the case (either powder compression or bullet seating) without risking putting pressure on the .22 blank rim and setting it off.

[tomsp8]

Excellent. And if I recall, the original advertised loading for both the 32RF and the "old" 32CF was 13
grains of black powder. I'm not too knowledgeable in this area, but I'm using 3F brand unknown.
I will install a fired blank in a prepped case and see how much powder I can get in it, up to a max of 13. Once I determine that, I will weigh it and then weigh each charge.
Can you explain the use of a drop tube, is this something I can make? I was previously just trickling the powder in very slowly while tapping the case.

[ndnchf]

With the modified new production cases, you will probably only get 8 - 10 gr of 3F in them without serious compression.. But that will work fine.

The drop tube is nothing but a 24"- 30" long piece of 5/16" or 1/4" copper tubing with a funnel at the top. The case is held at the bottom and the powder is slowly poured in at the top. The long drop allows the powder to pack in more tightly, allowing more powder in a given space than if it was just poured directly into the mouth. You can buy them from several suppliers, but I just made mine.

[tomsp8]

nd,
Great, thanks for the explanation.
Tom

[tomsp8]

95567
My first pic upload, let's see if it works....! Sorry, basic point & shoot camera....
This is 10.3 grains 3f by weight, uncompressed, and I'm able to fully seat a bullet over it
by hand. (Unsized case, bullet fits fairly loose). I'm thinking that maybe 10.5 would give
just a tad of compression. I've read that blackpowder should not have air space, how do you control
eventual settling of the powder in the case while stored/over time? Is that where the slight
compression comes in?

[tomsp8]

Forgot to mention, 12.5 grains, poured in very slowly while tapping the case, filled the case
to the rim.

[ndnchf]

Yes, airspace is a bad thing with black powder. Glad you could get that much powder in it. A little compression with a dowel will make it tight. Its better to use something besides the bullet to compress the powder as the soft bullet can be easily deformed with anything more than just a little compression. If you don't have a dowel of the right size, pick a drill bit that fits.

[tomsp8]

ok, so basically determine where the bottom of the heel seats and compress black powder
to about that point....can anyone recommend a good book or two, or other reading, about
loading black powder metallic cartridges?
I'm considering trying smokeless as well, later, thinking about a 1.7 to 2.0 charge of bullseye, or even
Titegroup.

[w30wcf]

tomsp8,
In dissecting some original .32 L C outside lubed cartridges, I found that the charge weight varied from 11 grs. to 12 grs.
Compression the factories used on the 11 gr. charge was .10" and on the 12 gr. charge, .14".

In other words, the 12 gr charge pretty much filled the case and the charge was precompressed the length of the heel. If the bullet is hard enough, it could be used to compress the charge, but as ndnchf indicated, too soft and it will distort, also growing in diameter.

One could use a 7mm jacketed bullet to compress the charge.


One of my favorite smokeless loads is 2.2 / Titegroup. It produces right around 1,000 f.p.s. and is a close replication of the original ballistics.

w30wcf

[tomsp8]

Thanks for the tip on the Titegroup. I built a drop tube this evening....Had some scrap red oak and an
aluminum arrow shaft....Works great!
Took an unsized case that I could insert and remove a bullet with, and added powder through the
drop tube without compressing until I could just almost seat the bullet all the way down. Ended up at
12.0 grains by weight. Dumped and repeated 3 times, making sure the case was completely empty each time.
So dropped it to 11.8 and completed an actual round, seating the bullet with the press. Nice tight fit with
no crimp. Will make a couple of these, then make a few with 12.0 with slight compression.95803

[tomsp8]

And a shot of the finished product.....9580695807

[ndnchf]

tomsp8 - Nice work! That a better looking drop tube than mine. Now you can see how well it packs the powder. With you reloadable rimfire cases, it has the added safety bonus of giving a good powder pack without physically compressing it and putting unwanted pressure on the .22 blank rim. What bullet lube are you using? For best accuracy you may want to wipe between shots or at least every 5 shots. I look forward to hearing your 1st range report.

One thing I found with the reloadable cases using blanks for ignition is that the rimfire ignition alone (original powder dumped out) is very weak, much weaker than a centerfire primer. It will ignite black powder just fine, but some smokeless powder does not ignite so easily. I've never used titegroup, so I can't speak to that. But I tried 2400 and ignition was erratic from the rimfire ignition alone. If I use 2400 again, I may add 5gr of 3F black under the 2400 to make a better priming charge. If you have not done so yet, try firing just an empty .22 blank with no charge or bullet. You will barely hear it go off. But if you fire a centerfire small pistol primed case alone, you'll get a good BANG out of it. Quite a difference.

[w30wcf]

tomsp8,
Yes, nice work! :grin:

ndnchf,
Great point regarding ignition strength. Perhaps if the smokeless charge was loaded directly into the blank case using Titegroup or similar faster burning powder with a little tuft of cotton holding it in place, harmony would possibly be the result(?) :grin:

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

Yes, a little tuft of cotton might help. I was quite surprised how mild the rimfire iginition was. When I tried firing just the empty blank, I thought it didn't go off at all! I really didn't hear anything but the hammer hitting. But when I opened the breech I could smell it and see a little smoke in the bore. I tried it a couple times and when listening closer I could hear it, but barely. As I'm sure you all know, firing a centerfire primer makes a pretty big bang. Obviously the rimfire ignition strength is adequate for a contained blank load or a factory loaded .22 round, after all they sell billions of them:) But in my small amount of experience with using the 2400 in my reloadable .32 extra longs, there was a noticable delay from primer hit to ignition (hangfire). But I had no trouble at all with good old black powder.

[tomsp8]

Thanks, guys
yea, was gonna look at something else for a primer if I tried smokeless. (Got an idea I'll toss out there soon).
I did the same thing with the blanks during development of the cases. I thought they weren't going off at
first.
For now, I'm enjoying learning the black powder side of things. Next up is lube. Looking for something
simple/easy. Pure beeswax and Crisco? I also have a tube of Bore Butter....How far will 5 ounces of beeswax
go? This will be my only application for using it (for now....) and would rather not over buy. Probably enough
to lube about 100-200 bullets for now. Wide open to suggestions, but simple/easy is preferred, even if
store bought.
I've actually fired several rounds through the Favorite already, previously, using the modified cases from HC-collection out of France.They came with the bullets already seated and I used crudely cut down 22 cases for ignition and guessed at the black powder charge. I should have asked more questions at that time, cause I guarantee there was some air space in those cartridges! And lube? What lube? lol But they actually fired great with no problems.
So these rounds will be my first "correct" cartridges, and made myself. No idea yet when I'll get the first
range trip with them yet, but will certainly post pics.
I really want to thank everyone for all the positive help, and everyone that has contributed to this
thread!
So much to learn.....

[kootne]

tomsp8,
I rub SPG on mine for lube. It was developed specificaly for use with black powder. The only draw back for outside lubed bullets is that it's melting point is much lower than most lubes for smokeless. I think your bore butter would be fine but it melts even easier than SPG. I love shooting my .32 but would like to find a way to stiffen up the SPG or find a good black powder lube that could take the "heat" better. Actually, if just shooting at bench it's not a problem. For walking around in the woods hunting small game I cut down a 50 shot styrafoam block from a .32 S&W box to hold 18 shells (3 x 6) which just fits in a empty Winchester 22WRF box. Now I just need to make an old time label that says ".32 rimfire"
kootne

[ndnchf]

For smokless loads, that bottle of Lee tumble lube that came with your .309" sizer will work fine. For BP, your beeswax/crisco mis will work good. An improved version of this is "Emmert's" lube. Emmert's is 50% beeswax, 40% crisco. 10% anhydrous lanolin. The lanolin adds a stickyness to it and helps it adhere to the bullet better. I made up a batch of Emmert's not too long ago. If you want to PM me your address, I'll mail you a piece that should cover you for a few hundred bullets.

[Chev. William]

Curiosity Question: I have read that 4f Black powder (BP) is used for priming Flintlock firearms.
Would a 'pinch', say a 1/2 grain, of 4f BP in the bottom of the 22RF 'primer' be usable and safe as a 'primer booster' something like the pad of BP on the rear of Bags of Smokeless Powder used in the 16" Guns of the old Battleships?
I admit you would need to keep it back against the primer, perhaps with a small cut 'wad' of Tissue Paper, then your main charge, and a 'tuft' of 'filler' to complete the charge under the bullet.

From what I have read so far, the 4f should not be used for a full charge due to its RAPID ignition and burn rate compared to coarser granulation sizes although 'Swiss BP' also is available in another even finer granulation for priming use.

On a Separate note: I now am waiting for the California Regulation Transfer period to time out on a fresh purchase, a Stripped 'Trigger Housing' of a Stevens "Model 44". It arrived at my Gunsmiths shop and I filled out he paperwork yesterday. I did get to look at it in the shop and it has through bored holes for the Breech Block and Lever pivots but the Hammer and Trigger pivot holes have threads on one side.
It still has a pair of Plug Screws in the upper tang and both the anchor screws, with the trigger spring, in the lower tang. I did verify it has threads in the barrel socket to match my one remaining '44' barrel and the hole for the barrel retaining screw was too full of 'crud' to tell if there are still threads in there. the outside had been 'cleaned' but the interior surfaces are rusty so after 2/18 I will have a cleaning to do before a thorough inspection is possible.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - I think .5gr of 4F would work fine for this purpose. Its kind of the inverse to what I used to do 25-30 years ago, before I learned the right way to load black powder cartridges. I used to put a little smokeless like 2400 (5% - 10% of the BP charge weight) against the primer and then load the BP. This helped reduce fouling. Now we need to go the other way around!

[Chev. William]

For your information: Quoted from the "Buffalo Arms Co." web site:
"Swiss and Schuetzen Sporting Black Powder has the following granule size:

1Fg .047"-.063"

1 1/2Fg .035"-.054"

2Fg .026"-.054"

3Fg .020"-.034"

Available in Swiss Powder Only 4Fg.... .009"-.020"

Available in Swiss Powder Only Null B.... .009"

Available in Schuetzen Powder Only Re-enactor... .009"-.063" "
Quote finished.
My take is that the Swiss 'Null-B' is Everything that will pass through a .009" screen, all the way to 'dust'.
The Schuttzen "Re-enactor" would have a very wide range of ignition and burn speeds due to its variable mix of screen size powder granules.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Chev - I think .5gr of 4F would work fine for this purpose. Its kind of the inverse to what I used to do 25-30 years ago, before I learned the right way to load black powder cartridges. I used to put a little smokeless like 2400 (5% - 10% of the BP charge weight) against the primer and then load the BP. This helped reduce fouling. Now we need to go the other way around!

ndnchf,
As you probably know, back in the black powder era, the only primers available had been designed to ignite b.p. and were very mild. So, when the smokeless era began in the mid 1890's, those folks that wanted to try the new fangled powder soon found out that the b.p. primers they had been using did not reliably ignite the new powder. At that time, the factories did offer primers that were hotter specifically for smokeless but the folks soon found out that they could use the milder b.p. primers if they placed a small amount of b.p. in the case first, followed by a load of smokeless, all was well.

That was, if the powder used was DuPont No. 1 or No. 2 bulk smokeless which filled the case to capacity, therefore holding the b.p. charge in place against the primer. With dense smokeless powders that did not fill the case, one would have needed to place a paper wad over the b.p. charge to hold it in place.

Fast forwarding 119 years, if the b.p. charge was placed directly into the blank and held in place with a tuft of cotton, that would likely work just dandy with 2400 and similar burning rate powders.

It would be interesting to see if faster burning powders like Titegroup were loaded directly into the blank and held in place with a tuft of cotton or paper wad would work aok without using a b.p. kicker. Faster burning powders are used in standard .22 l.r. cartridges but the larger expansion ratio of the .32 L.C. may or may not be an issue.

Chev. William,
I am using Swiss Null B in reloading .22 L.R. b.p. cartridges and it has a very even small grain size with no dust at all. I guess that's why it runs around $30 / lb.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Chev. William,
I am using Swiss Null B in reloading .22 L.R. b.p. cartridges and it has a very even small grain size with no dust at all. I guess that's why it runs around $30 / lb.

w30wcf

W30wcf,
I was basing my comment on the listed description from Buffalo Arms, so I Humbly Stand Corrected by your actual knowledge fo the 'Null-B' BP.
Thank you for the correcting comment.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

W30wcf - thanks for the primer on early primers - very interesting. I was familiar with the weaker BP primers, but not things shooters of the day did to deal with the changing technology. I've never used titegroup, but it would be interesting to see how it would work.

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
That's what I would have thought too if I hadn't actually had the opportunity to work with Swiss Null B.

ndnchf,
I was trying to recall where I had read about the use of b.p. as starting charge for smokeless when using the mild b.p. early primer. So I retrieved my copy of THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO HANDLOADING by Philip Sharpe (1937) which is an excellent reference book for historical information on reloading .

He has two full chapters on primers.....quite an interesting history! Anyway, I found it. "Both types were occasionally used by handloaders with black powder primers, when a small priming charge of black powder was first inserted into the bottom of the shell." "Both types" referred to the Bulk and Dense type smokeless powders.

It wil be interesting to learn from your experiments how much of a b.p. priming charge it will take to ignite the charge of 2400 reliably.

With regards to Titegroup, other powders with faster burning rates like Bullseye, Clays, etc. would work pretty much the same. The ? is though, if the larger expansion ratio of the .32 would still give a similar result as the .22 LR cartridge which typically uses 1 - 1 1/2 grs of powder although the .32 would use more at 2 - 2.2 grs.....

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

W30wcf - I'm going to look for a copy of that book. It sound like a great reference from the early smokeless era. I will probably try .5 gr of 4F as a priming charge in my .32 extra longs. I think it will make a big improvement with the 2400.

[w30wcf]

ndnchf,
Yes, it is a wonderful book filled with lots of really interesting, historic info. He also has a couple of chapters on Black Powder in addition to smokeless. There were, I think, 3 editions with each one adding more information to the first. The second one on this list looks like it would be a good one.....
http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/complete-guide-to-handloading/author/sharpe/sortby/2/page-1/

It will be interesting to learn if the .5 gr charge does the job.

I decided to convert one case today just to try it in my 1892 Marlin. I used a .22 LR primed case and when fired, I must say that the report was not as loud as a centerfire primed case but there was no doubt that it had fired (24" barrel).

THANK YOU for all the detailed information that you have provided! :grin:

I don't know the length of the blank cases you are using but I found that 2.2 grs. of Titegroup will fit into a .22 Short case with about 1/16" to spare....just enough to put a paper wad in the mouth. 2.0 grs of Bullseye filled the case competely so a piece of tape over the case mouth would be needed.

I plan on test firing the one round tomorrow using the 2.2 / Titegroup charge. I'll report back.......

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

w30wcf - that's a pretty good price for an original edition. I found a free downloadable pdf version, but a document that size is too hard for my aging eyes to read on a computer screen, I'd rather have a hard copy to sit back and read in my comfy chair. I see Cornell has a new reprint for $29.95, but I'm not sure which edition it is.

http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=3731

But for $10 more, I'd prefer the one you found.

I was using empty .22 blanks used for dog training in my .32XLs. It sounds like the .22LR case you tried had a stronger priming compound. So that may be the simple answer. I have several brands of .22 short, long and LRs, I'll try some of each and see what the difference is.

My smokeless knowledge and experience is very limited. Being a BP guy for the last 30+ years, I just havent used much of the stuff. I have a little 2400 left from the early 1980s, some old XP5744 and I recently bought some Trail Boss. That's what have to experiment with right now. If I were to buy another can of smokeless for use in the .32, what would you recommend?

Just wondering how filling the .22 short case with smokeless and a wad will work in the .32 case. It seems like the
.22 case would blow out if there is not an equal amount of pressure on the outside of it's case. When I loaded mine, I poured the powder in from the mouth allowing it to go both inside and outside of the .22 blank on the theory that this would keep pressure equal on both sides ofthe .22 case wall. It seemed to work, as the .22 case was not deformed after firing and was easy to knock out afterwards. So it will be interesting to see how you your filled and wadded .22 case works. Looking forward to your range report.

[Chev. William]

My thoughts are that the .22LR case with only a Thin paper 'wad' or a tuft of poly fill will not generate enough pressure to be deformed as the pressure of the expanding gasses will find easy path into the .32ExL case and then build up pressure until the Bullet begins its travel down the barrel.

From my reading I find there are at least two schools of thought as to which range of Smokeless powders would be best for making low peak pressure loads for these older cartridges.

One group advocates very fast burning powders with low charge weights to get a quick, sharp peak presure to expand the case before the bullet moves out of the mouth of the case into the rifling.

A second group advocates using slower burning powders to generate a slightly slower rise in pressure and a lower peak pressure to get the bullet moving while smoothly expanding the case softer neck and mouth to form the chamber seal.

Which group is right will need to be determined by careful experiments over time with several rifles and cartridges.

I do know that in my 'playing around' with "QuichLOAD" software and the .25ACP cartridge and longer variants postulating a roughly 22" barrel length, I found that the slower range of powders would yield a slightly higher MV and somewhat lower and later Peak pressure for the charge weights I tried.
This held for a range of case lengths from about .605" to 1.350" in my runs of the software.
Such software runs are THEORETICAL and have not yet been verified by physical testing by me, I am still waiting for my test rifle to be completed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

I fired my test cartridge with the .22 Short case and 2.2 / Titegroup. I am happy to report that the round fired fine with about the same report as the standard center fire cartridge. It looks like the temps will at least get above freezing possibly next week so I will run a round across the chronograph to see if the velocity is comparable to the center fire case with the same charge.

Thankfully, the spent rimfire case was removed as easily as it was inserted into the case. :grin: Chev. William's thoughts were correct regarding no case distortion.

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

That's great to hear w30wcf. I'm hoping for some warmer weather here in Virginia too, but it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon. In fact, they are starting to talk about another big storm coming up from the south and arriving here Wednesday night. I guess ole man winter is not done with us yet.

Tonight I loaded up 10 rounds of .32 Extra Long using .5gr of 4F as a priming charge inside the emptied blank case. I added a small piece of toilet paper as a wad to hold it in place. Then inserted it into the .32XL case and added 6.0 gr of 2400. The 2400 filled the remaining space in the .22 blank and outside of it up to a level about 1/4" below the bullet's base. The blank was completely covered when looking into the case, I could not see the blank at all. But I digress, a while back w30wcf graciously sent me some bullets from his new Accurate mold (sorry, I can't recall the mold # at the moment) and I wanted to try them. These bullets have an additional driving band compared to the Lyman 299153 which I expect will make them more stable. But I found that the loaded round would not chamber because the additional driving band was engaging the rifling before the round was fully seated. The band measures about .050" long, so I trimmed 10 of my cases .050 shorter. After doing this they chambered just fine.

Here are a couple rounds. On the left loaded with the 299153 bullet and on the right the Accurate mold bullet. In front is another empty .32 XL case and a blank (sorry they are a little blurry). You can clearly see the differences in the two bullets.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/32xlaccuratebullet_zpsd5dbc192.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/32xlaccuratebullet_zpsd5dbc192.jpg.html)

In the #2 rolling block I've tried the 299153 bullet with 3F BP, APP 3F, and straight 2400. None of them have shot well. But the bore is in pretty rough shape and I'm sure that is a major cause of the inaccuracy. But I want to give the Accurate bullet a chance and see if its extra driving band surface area will work better. I'm not holding my breath on it, but it is certainly worth a try.

[kootne]

ndnchf, I'm not much of a smokeless powder guy but I remember 2400 is what I think we loaded in Dad's .44 magnum back in the '60's. Just a bit of concern that you don't over pressure things altho that #2 certainly will take more than the Favorite and similar actions.
I have a Hodgons 2009 "Annual Manual", which is showing pressure tested loads for a .32 H&R Magnum. Here is the load info that seems closest to what I'm guessing you are looking for; (I can't remember your exact case length)

Case; Federal
Barrel; 5"
Trim; 1.070
Twist; 1-16
Primer; Federal 100
Bullet; 90 gr. HDY LSWC dia. .314 col=1.350"

starting loads maximum loads
powder......grs......vel.......pressure(cup)...... ..grs........vel........pressure
HS-6.........4.6......845......10,900................ ..5.0........963......14,800
Autocomp..3.4......874......10,400................ ..3.9........997......14,500
Universal....3.0.....819........8,400............. .....3.2........908......11,500
231............2.8.....828........9,600........... .......3.2.......919.......12,500
HP-38........2.8......828........9,600............... ...3.2.......919.......12,500
Trail Boss...2.4......751......10,700..................2 .8.......785.......11,300
Tite group..2.4......819......10,500..................2 .8........911......13,300

These seem like quite mild loads to me, there are others listed with various jacketed bullets that move out faster. If you want I can post some for the 90 grn. jacketed loads that reach 11-1200 fps and pressure to 18-19,000 cup.
I feel the need to note if these loads are put up in the shorter .32 long cases that pressures will undoubtably go up.
kootne

[kootne]

Wow, all that work to carefully space stuff in columns and when I hit post, it all crunched together. they say today's kids are technology natives, I am a technology illegal immigrant. hope you can decifer.
sorry,
kootne

[ndnchf]

Kootne - thanks. My case length is 1.100" and 1.150", pretty close to what you posted. I can read the data ok, thanks for posting.

[kootne]

Hopefully putting all those periods in makes my post regarding loads more ledgible
kootne

[ndnchf]

I decided to test the .22 blank shown above with .5gr of 4F as a priming charge only. I wanted to see how much of a BANG it would give. I put in the .5gr of 4F and put a small piece of TP as a wad to hold it in place. I test fired it in the garage. To my surprise the 4F did not ignite! It was blown into the bore about 6" along with the TP wad. I think the original .22 blank priming charge is very weak with the main powder charge poured out. After this I tried a CCI .22 short with bullet pulled and powder dumped. It made a noticable, but small bang with no powder in it. I then added .5gr of 4F to another CCI .22 short case with a wad and tried it. BANG it went, although still pretty mild. So after this I decided to disassemble the rounds I made up the other day and replace the .22 blanks with CCI .22 short cases with 1.0 gr of 4F as a priming charge. So the two loads I made up are:

1. - 6.0gr of 2400 over a CCI .22 short case primer with 1.0gr of 4F and the Accurate #31-090S bullet
2. - 2.9gr of Trail Boss over a CCI .22 short case primer with 1.0gr of 4F and the Lyman 299153 bullet

To arrive at the Trail Boss load I looked at what kootne posted above and then filled then did the standard Trail Boss calculation for a starting load. With a .22 short case in place I filled the caes to the top with Trail Boss, that came to 4.23gr. The starting point is suppose to be 70% of the full case load. 70% came to 3.29gr. But then since I was adding 1.0gr of 4F BP in the primer, I wanted to reduce it a little further. 60% = 2.82gr. So considering the 4F is a slight wildcard, I settled on 2.9gr as my load.

The snow is about to hit here, so I'm not sure when I'll get to the range. But I'm anxious to try these out.

[w30wcf]

Today was a day of discovery. :grin:

I made a brief trip to the range this afternoon to do some testing. It was in the 20's and a bit windy. Brrrrrr. I kept the components in my pocket to keep them a bit warm.

Rifle: 1892 Marlin 24" .32 LC

But first, I decided to make a trip to Lowes this AM and picked up these boxes of .22 http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/22Duo-Fast.jpg

I dissected 3 each to find out what powder charges they contained..... 1.6 / 2.2 / 2.6 grs respectively

Since I only had 1 case converted to use .22 r.f. I decided to first try the powder charges in .32 LC cases (.91") primed with CCI 500 small pistol primers and then seated 31-090A bullets.
I positioned the powder to the rear prior to firing to duplicate the position in the power cartridges.

2 power level ...- 786 f.p.s. / 2 shot average
3 power level ...- 975 f.p.s. / 2 shot average - closest to factory cartridge load
4 power level - 1,124 f.p.s. / 1 shot

Those were encouraging results and would indicate that the power level 3 cartridge placed into the modified .32 Colt case would pretty much replicate factory ballistics. However, the rimfire primer may not give the same result as the small pistol primer. I will find that out next week.......

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next up were the .22 cases charged with 2.2 / Titegroup.......
They produced 910 f.p.s. average. The same charge in the standard .32 LC case
ignited by a small pistol primer = 940 f.p.s. so that is pretty close.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ndnchf,
I tried 5.5 /2400 which, in a standard .32 LC case with a small pistol primer previously averaged around 1,100 f.p.s.
primer - 1.0 / 4F in a .22 case - 895 f.p.s which is 200 f.p.s. less

So.... I decided to try a .22 b.p. blank - 1,184 f.p.s. (additional 84 f.p.s. due to the b.p. charge)

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/22bpblanks.jpg

The .22 Blank contains about 2 1/2 grs of b.p. (difference in weight between fired and unfired)

So it would seem that the ideal weight of b.p. to ignite 2400 would be greater than 1.0 gr. and less than 2.5 gr.

To be continued......

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

W30wcf - wow, I've read this twice and am still digesting it - very interesting! I've long wondered what these blanks would do. I just want to make sure I understand one thing. You took the powder from the duo-fast blanks and used it in the .32 LC cases? Any idea what powder it is? I bought the .27 cal green Ramset blanks from Home Depot and dumped the powder and tried the empty blanks in .32 cases I made. But I was afraid to use the mystery powder. If the #3 duo-fast blanks could be used as-is to power the .32LC rounds, it would really simplify loading. Of course this leads me to wonder which duo-fast would be good in the .32 extra long. Maybe the 4?

I have 20 rounds of .32 XL loaded using the .22 short case with 1.0gr of 4F for priming. Maybe I should have doubled that? Well, maybe next time around. I looked for those black powder blanks locally, but was unable to locate any. I would like to try some.

This is all very interesting. Thanks for all the experiments and sharing the results!

[tomsp8]

The idea of using the Duo blanks alone, as primer and powder, in the modified cases was a thought of mine
as well, but since I'm new to bp cartridge loading, wanted to stay with the bp. My only concern would
be "depriming" the spent blank. The crimp in the blank might open enough to make it hard to drive it
back out easily?

[w30wcf]

ndnchf,
Yes, I transferred the powder charges from the .22 Duo-Fast into standard .32 LC cases. When I saw the amount of powder they contained, I felt that it was safe to at least try the number 2. After seeing that velocity, I felt comfortable to try the number 3. I only loaded 1 round of the number 4. Perhaps the number 4 would be ideal for the larger capacity .32 E.L. case. Tests using the actual Duo-Fast .22's will give us a better idea of what they will do in the converted .32 LC cases.

Based on the results, the powder used approximates pretty much the same burning rate as Bullseye, and a bit faster than Titegroup.

tomsp8,
The blank was removed as easily as it was seated. The end has a roll crimp.
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/440x330/alt1/484/super%20x%20blank.jpg

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

w30wcf - Do you suppose the color code on these power tool blanks are an industry standard? In other words, would a green Duo-fast be equivelent to a gree Ramset blank? I would think so, otherwise construction workers would be damagaing their tools. Here is the Ramset application chart.

http://www.ramset.com/loads_chart.asp

This is the powder I dumped out of the .27 cal green Ramsets. Does it look the same as what you found in the Duo-fasts? (Disregard the green flecks, that was something left over in the bowl)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/ramsetpowder_zps221261dc.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/ramsetpowder_zps221261dc.jpg.html)

I've got both Lowes and Home Depot near by. I may just run to Lowes and get the same ones you did.

[w30wcf]

ndnchf,
I would think that there is an industry standard that set the power levels and both companies offer products to those standards. So it is very likely that the same caliber power level /colors from each comany are equivalent. However, a .27 caliber green may not be the same power as the .22 caliber green (?).

The powder in the Duo-Fast that I dissected is a fine disc powder which is different in appearance to the powder in your photo. The burning rates may be similar.

At $6 per 100, they are a bargain ..... especially these days.

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

Today my Complete Guide To Handloading by Philip Sharpe, 1953 printing arrived. Wow - what a resource. I just thumbed through it a little and am amazed by the variety and depth of information. Quite accidentally, I randomly flipped it open and it stopped on the page with .32 Long Colt load data - spooky! Maybe Mr. Sharpe is trying to tell me something.

[Chev. William]

RE: Powder tool loads markings; Yes there is a standard color code versus Grade and VELOCITY ratings.
The catch is I do NOT know if the Velocity rating results in the same Power in different caliber loads.
E.G.: is Green, Grade 3, the same in power between .22, .25, and .27 calibers? Since the fasteners increase in size and mass with increases in diameter, I would guess the power level would increase for the same end velocity.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[I'll Make Mine]

All the powder drive nail guns on the current market are what we call "low velocity"; they use an internal driver propelled by the powder charge to strike the fastener. That's been the case since the 1970s, when "high velocity" drivers were phased out for safety reasons (a bad contact between tool and work would launch a nail literally like a bullet from a handgun, with the old high velocity tools). As one who repairs and services powder drive tools, even I'm not sure if the color codes are standardized between calibers; I seldom see anything other than .27 where I work. The way to check would be to see if the recommended codes for a given fastener and work material/thickness are the same for a .22 tool as for a .25 or .27. I suspect they aren't; the larger loads are larger so they can hold more powder, and the larger charge is why the .25 and .27 have heavier brass than a .22 load, and the .22 tools typically have a smaller maximum fastener size.

The .22 loads are the only ones that are sold as loose cartridges; the .25 come pressed into a metal disk (like a full moon clip) and .27 are sold seated in a plastic strip, to improve operating efficiency; the ones in metal disk require some effort (punch and hammer) to drive out. FWIW, the .25 are similar head size to a .22 WMR, while .27 is the parent product for the .17 HMR.

[w30wcf]

Today my Complete Guide To Handloading by Philip Sharpe, 1953 printing arrived. Wow - what a resource. I just thumbed through it a little and am amazed by the variety and depth of information. Quite accidentally, I randomly flipped it open and it stopped on the page with .32 Long Colt load data - spooky! Maybe Mr. Sharpe is trying to tell me something.

ndnchf,
Glad to hear that your copy has arrived. As you indicated, it is a wonderful resource. I can't imagine the length of time it took Philip using the old fashioned typewriter to type all of the information contained in the 500 or so pages!! Lots of neat vintage pictures too! Ah..yes, the data for the .32 LC. The 2.0 / Bullseye load has been recommended going back to at least 1904 according to my references.

Having a keen interest in the early smokeless powders and have a bit of SR80 (Sporting Rifle) on hand (discontinued 1939). The 4.0 gr load referenced is a capacity load and turned up 1,037 f.p.s. in the Marlin's 24" barrel with good accuracy. I wish it was still available today.

DuPont 3, 5 & 6 have been obsolete for a long time as is RSQ which was the powder used in the early .45 Colt Military cartridge.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
Thank you for your thoughts on the powder tool ctgs.


I'll Make Mine,
Thank you for your in depth knowledge and history lesson. :grin:

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

Yes, great info thanks IMM, Chev and w30wcf.

Now that w30wcf has taken the leap of initial testing the Duo-Fast blanks and provided some data, I see no need to do anything with the Ramsets. Both brands are readily available, so I'll pick up some Duo-Fasts to try. At this point, I amost wish I hadn't converted my .32 Long #4 RRB to centerfire. Well not really, the .32 LC works great in it. But I'm in no hurry convert my .32 XL #2 RRB to centerfire.

But I may be taking the #2 to the gunsmith for a couple things. The muzzle/crown is kind of beat up and under a magnifier I see a burr on the crown going into the bore. Also the bore is worn a bit just inside the muzzle from cleaning rod wear I imagine. I think all these things are contributing to the rather poor accuracy I've seen so far. I may have him cut it back 1/4" and recrown. The other issue is the sear is worn. It works fine on full and half cock and is safe, but it is worn a little short so it doesn't hold the hammer back as far as it should, which prevents the breech block from opening when at full cock. Its not much, but I have to pull the hammer back a little to open the block. We've got a really good smith here in town that should be able to take care of these issues. I just hate to give up the rifle for a while to get the work done.

[Chev. William]

All the powder drive nail guns on the current market are what we call "low velocity"; they use an internal driver propelled by the powder charge to strike the fastener. That's been the case since the 1970s, when "high velocity" drivers were phased out for safety reasons (a bad contact between tool and work would launch a nail literally like a bullet from a handgun, with the old high velocity tools). As one who repairs and services powder drive tools, even I'm not sure if the color codes are standardized between calibers; I seldom see anything other than .27 where I work. The way to check would be to see if the recommended codes for a given fastener and work material/thickness are the same for a .22 tool as for a .25 or .27. I suspect they aren't; the larger loads are larger so they can hold more powder, and the larger charge is why the .25 and .27 have heavier brass than a .22 load, and the .22 tools typically have a smaller maximum fastener size.

The .22 loads are the only ones that are sold as loose cartridges; the .25 come pressed into a metal disk (like a full moon clip) and .27 are sold seated in a plastic strip, to improve operating efficiency; the ones in metal disk require some effort (punch and hammer) to drive out. FWIW, the .25 are similar head size to a .22 WMR, while .27 is the parent product for the .17 HMR.

IMM,
Thank you for your comments, but I believe that the .25 Cal ones can be removed from the metal ring using pressure of a push tool rather than the striking force of a punch and hammer. A Friend of mine does the removals by hand, using a metal tool rather than his finger tips, to get 'blanks' to use in his Special Effects 'projects'.

Since I have some of both the 'Ram-Set' .22, .25, and .27 Cal. tool loads, I guess I will ned to disassemble soemadn measure the powder charges in them fo r the group.

'w30wcf','ndnchf',
What are the methods you have sued to open the Tool Loads up that have a 'star' crimp? I would like to use your experience to avoid a long 'learning curve'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

w30wcf - Do you suppose the color code on these power tool blanks are an industry standard? In other words, would a green Duo-fast be equivelent to a gree Ramset blank? I would think so, otherwise construction workers would be damagaing their tools. Here is the Ramset application chart.

http://www.ramset.com/loads_chart.asp

This is the powder I dumped out of the .27 cal green Ramsets. Does it look the same as what you found in the Duo-fasts? (Disregard the green flecks, that was something left over in the bowl)

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/ramsetpowder_zps221261dc.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/ramsetpowder_zps221261dc.jpg.html)

I've got both Lowes and Home Depot near by. I may just run to Lowes and get the same ones you did.

'ndnchf',
The photo appears to include at least three types of 'flakes': the green ones you mentioned, some square or rectangular flakes, and some spherical items.
Do the Ram-Set .27 Cal Tool Loads contain two types of powder in each Load?
Curious after rereading the page of Posts,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - the star blanks are a pain to open up. I did it while still in the plastic strip to help hold them. I used a small nail to start the opening, then progressed to a larger one, wiggleing it in an arc to make the opening larger. I then dumped out the powder. In order for the new powder to get inside the blank when seated in the .32 case, I opened the blank even further by pressing in a mid sized centerpunch using an arbor press. The straight blanks that use a crimped card are much easier to work with.

Ignore the green flakes, that was not in the powder. It was something left in the bowl from earlier. The powder does seem a mix of sizes, I have no idea what it is.

[Chev. William]

I will be trying to post photos so please be patent with me until I get it worked out.

The first attempt is a Right side view of my Stevens 1915 Action with Butt Stock attached:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/HPIM0586_zpseeafbb59.jpg

The Action is "in the White" and has been 'polished with 320 grid' by the previous owner. There is a turned bushing in place in the Barrel socket which I drilled out to take a 1/16" transfer punch to center mark the Breech block. It has a rim on the outboard end which shows in the photo.

The Stock was purchased used separately and still needs some inletting work to get the action properly fitted to it.

The second photo is the Left side of the same action:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/HPIM0587_zps4fbff573.jpg

The third photo is of a selection of the barrels I have for the Stevens actions:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/HPIM0588_zpsa5ea42d4.jpg

The Top one is a used Winchester 1885 in .32 Short.
The Second one is my "Keeper" Stevens in .25 Stevens Long.
The Third is one of my 'better' Stevens in .32 Long RF, this one has a .320" chamber diameter.
The Fourth is another Stevens in .32 Long but he Chamber is .346" diameter.
The fifth and sixth are Stevens in .22 Long rifle, they will be refinished eventually.

I hope this works.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - photos look fine, glad you are getting it figured out. Everyone likes photos:grin:

[I'll Make Mine]

IMM,
Thank you for your comments, but I believe that the .25 Cal ones can be removed from the metal ring using pressure of a push tool rather than the striking force of a punch and hammer. A Friend of mine does the removals by hand, using a metal tool rather than his finger tips, to get 'blanks' to use in his Special Effects 'projects'.

The right press-type or plier-type tool should be able to do anything a punch and hammer can do in terms of removing the blanks from the disk; I've only done it to get one to measure for size comparison vs. existing rimfire ammunition.

[ndnchf]

I finally had a day off work today. Being the rather impatient type, I decided to cut and recrown the barrel of my #2 RRB. I was thinking of taking it to the local gunsmith, but I really didn't want to wait weeks to get it back. The bore is well worn and the muzzle is beat up with a good size ding in the crown, so I figured I had nothing to loose. You may recall it was shooting 4"-5" groups at 25 yards before, pretty lousy.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/1st5shots_zps8fd6bd92.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/1st5shots_zps8fd6bd92.jpg.html)

I while back at w30wcf's suggestion I dropped a Lyman 299153 bullet into the muzzle nose first to see how far it would go in. It dropped in to the point where both driving bands of the bullet were inside. This indicated a lot of were at the muzzle, likely caused by a cleaning rod being carelessly drug in and out. Not only that, but the rifle appeared to have been dropped on the muzzle as one edge was mashed back causing a flare on the top flat. So I figured all this has to be contributing to the poor accuracy. Here is the muzzle. It was hard to get focused all around the crown, but you can see the hard life it had. While a little blurry, you can see the big ding inside the crown at about 3:30 (when the front sight is viewed at 12:00).

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/Muzzle1_zpsa5cedee0.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/Muzzle1_zpsa5cedee0.jpg.html)

Using a 32 TPI high quality hacks saw blade, I cut about 3/16" off the muzzle. Then using a machinist square and a well chalked fine tooth Nicholson mill bastard file, I carefully cleaned and squared up the cut. This was rather tedious because the barrel is a tapered octagon, and the machinist square would not give a true square indication. But I made sure that the it was the same when measured from 4 sides. Then I polished the surfaces with 220 and 320 grit sandpaper. Finally, I used the old trick of crowning with a #10 brass round head machine screw in a drill with 240 grit lapping compound using a slow speed electric drill. While I know this doesn't compare to cutting and crowning on a lathe, I think it will be a big improvement over what I had. Here is the end result.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/muzzle3_zps4157e107.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/muzzle3_zps4157e107.jpg.html)

After cleaning up, I dropped another 299153 bullet into the muzzle and was very pleased to see that it stopped at the first band - much better.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/muzzlewbullet_zps88d9f0a8.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/muzzlewbullet_zps88d9f0a8.jpg.html)

I can't wait to get out to the range and try it again. But alas, the range is snowed in, so it will be a few days or a week until I can get out there.

While a good gunsmith will scoff at this job, I think it will be an improvement.

[ndnchf]

I took a couple green, power level 2 .27 cal Ramset blanks and dumped out the powder and weighed it. Each came out at 2.3gr of whatever that powder is. That compares favorably to the green .22 cal Duo-fast blanks that w30wcf reported on earlier. But since each brand's powder appears different, we can't really make a comparison. But it seems likely that they are similar in power. I've got 6 .32 long cases I machined for the .27 cal blanks. I'm going to try these Ramsets out in them using the Lyman 299153 bullet. I'll shoot them in my #2 RRB which is much stronger than the #4 RRB. While this rifle is chambered for the .32 extra long, it should still shoot these ok. I prefer the cases made for the .22 cal blanks because it leaves a stronger original .32 cal rim. But I made these up early on, so I might as well try them out.

[Chev. William]

Glad to hear the .22 works for you. I tried cutting the star crimp off an emptied blank using a dremel cut off wheel. But about 3 seconds into cutting the primer went off. No harm or damage, just a surprise. That ended my cutting off experiment.

Rereading the past posts; I gather you used the abrasive cut off disk rather than the micro saw blade of the Dremel tools. That would definitely generate heat and possibly hot chips to ignite the charge.

A further experiment with the saw blade might give more useful results.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Ndnchf,
Your 'crowning' job looks Very Good, I used windows to magnify the photo and I think I can just make out a pair of lands on the side away from the camera. IF I am correct, then your rifling is very shallow and has sloped sides to the lands. Am I correct?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Yes, I used an abrasive cut off wheel. A saw blade would probably work better. The lands are well worn, but still visible when looking through the bore. Not sure about the sloped sides, I'll try to look closer tonight.

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
To open the .22's, I used a finishing nail in my reloading press. I first placed a fired .22 case nose first into the shellholder to plug the primer hole. Then placed a .22 on top with the finishing nail inserted into the center. I then ran it into a seating die, pushing the nail in just far enough to open the crimp.

That is quite a neat project you have going. Very nice!:grin:

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

ndnchf,
Great job on the recrown!:grin: Hopefully that will improve the accuracy by quite a bit.

About 15 years ago or so, a friend had an old Marlin in .32 W.S. which shot terrible groups with some bullets keyholing. In examining the barrel, I found it to be worn for a distance of about 2" or so from the muzzle inward. I removed that 2" with a hacksaw and trued the muzzle up with a file and recrowned it like you did.

What a difference! I was an excellent shooter after that. :grin: Hopefully, that will also be true with yours.

Thank you for the info on the .27. It is likeley that the powders have similar burning rates. Based on previous testing with Bullseye in 2.0 gr doses, the 2.2 grs of powder in the .22 produced similar results......and you can't get much faster than Bullseye ...... except for the powder used in blanks.....so be careful.........

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

More Discovery.....

I had a chance to test these in the 1892 Marlin .32 LC using the .91" case and the 31-090A bullet. I had 2 cases converted to use these Duo-Fast .22's. So I needed to reload at the range, removing the spent case, seating another bullet, placing a new power load, etc.

I thought there might be a possibility that the crimp may open beyond the .22 case od so I took a punch that would fit inside the fired case to pull the case out of the converted .32 LC brass. I felt that would be better than pushing it out with a 1/4" punch which could possibly distort the fired case mouth, making it more difficult to remove.

I'm glad that I did because the crimp did expand a bit beyond the .22 case od.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/22Duo-Fast.jpg

Here are the results....
2 power level - 817 f.p.s. average of 3 rounds
3 power level - 969 f.p.s. average of 5 rounds - closely matches original .22 LC smokeless ballistics :grin:

I decided to try 1 shot with the 4 power level - 1,125 f.p.s. which caused the .22 Duo-Fast to expand and stick firmly in the converted .32 LC case. Definitely a bit too much fast burning powder!

I did not test for accuracy ..... too cold and windy! I did keep the Duo-Fasts in my pocket to keep them somewhat warm.

I decided at the last minute to take a few .315" diameter round balls with me to try them as well.
2 power level - 957 & 962 f.p.s.

Accuracy testing will commence when the weather warms up a bit.........

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

w30wcf - Thanks - I hope the crowning helps. Accuracy can't get much worse, so its worth a try. Thanks for the range report too, great information. Last night I loaded up the 6 .32 long cases modified for the .27 cal blanks. I loaded them with 299153s and green .27 cal Ramsets (power level 3) on the assumption that they will be at least similar, but maybe a little more powerful than the green .22 Duo-fasts. I had one .32 long case made for the .22 blank so I loaded that one with the a 299152 and a green .22 Duo-fast. My other twenty .32 XL cases are already loaded with .22 short cases primed with 1.0 gr of 4F and 10 with trail Boss and 10 with 2400. So that is 27 cases total I have ready to shoot. I just heard today that they plowed the road into my gun club, but it is still rough. Its suppose to get warm later in the week, so hopefully I can get out there soon.

When I was shooting the #2 RRB before, I noticed with my full power BP loads, that the cases were sticking in the chamber and were hard to extract. It wasn't a problem with the 2400 smokeless loads. There is some minor pitting in the chamber, so I'm not surprised. Well tonight I stripped down the rifle and polished the chamber. I used a split dowel turned down to about .275", a strip of 400 wet/dry paper and light oil. Using a low speed drill, I polished the chamber for about 1 minute. Not enough to remove any significant amount of metal, but it did shine up the chamber quite a bit. So I hope this will help with extraction.

I looked at the VTI parts web site today and they list parts for the Uberti Rolling Block Baby carbine, which is their copy of a #2 RRB. They show a sear on the drawing, it looks the same as an original. Who knows how close it is, but I'm going to call them tomorrow and see if by chance they have one in stock. If so, for $21 I'll take a chance and see if I can make it work. This is to solve my worn sear issue that prevents the hammer from being held back far enough to open the breech block. Again, trying to avoid an expensive trip to the gunsmith if possible. I can shoot safely as-is, its just a pain to hold the hammer back with one hand while opening the breech block with the other.

[kootne]

ndnchf, you are a pretty handy guy, here is a thought I had; make up or modify a little tubing cutter for trimming those ends off crimped loads. A rim groove in the 2 rollers could hold the case uniformly. The rim groove could probably be cut with a dremel in a regular tube cutter if better means were not available. I may make one myself but am very happy with the loads I currently use which is a CCI noise blank (crimped) with it's load of whatever powder plus enough 3f Goex to fill the case. An advantage to trimming them off would be to make them short enough to not flare out which does create an inconvenience to remoing them.
again, anybody reading this, note the loads I referred to (blank w/smokeless plus 3f black) are being shot in a 1-1/2 rolling block, I wouldn't advise them in Stevens Favorite or similar guns.
kootne

[ndnchf]

Kootne - I thought about that a few weeks ago. I even stopped by the local Harbor Freight store and picked up one of these mini tubing cutters.

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-8-eighth-inch-to-1-1-8-eighth-inch-tubing-cutter-92878.html

It will hold a blank nicely, but the problem is there is not enough of the blank protruding to get a solid grasp on it, so that it can be turned. Since it is clamped by the cutting wheel, it takes a solding grasp and some effort to turn it.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/tubingcutter_zpsc32be570.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/Number%202%20RRB/tubingcutter_zpsc32be570.jpg.html)

It sounds like a good idea, but I haven't pursued it further.

[w30wcf]

kootne,
Sounds like a good idea, but then the powder will not be contained in the .22 case close to the primer and will result in less than ideal ignition from the lower powered rimfire primer.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

More Discovery.....

I had a chance to test these in the 1892 Marlin .32 LC using the .91" case and the 31-090A bullet. I had 2 cases converted to use these Duo-Fast .22's. So I needed to reload at the range, removing the spent case, seating another bullet, placing a new power load, etc.

I thought there might be a possibility that the crimp may open beyond the .22 case od so I took a punch that would fit inside the fired case to pull the case out of the converted .32 LC brass. I felt that would be better than pushing it out with a 1/4" punch which could possibly distort the fired case mouth, making it more difficult to remove.

I'm glad that I did because the crimp did expand a bit beyond the .22 case od.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/22Duo-Fast.jpg

Here are the results....
2 power level - 817 f.p.s. average of 3 rounds
3 power level - 969 f.p.s. average of 5 rounds - closely matches original .22 LC smokeless ballistics :grin:

I decided to try 1 shot with the 4 power level - 1,125 f.p.s. which caused the .22 Duo-Fast to expand and stick firmly in the converted .32 LC case. Definitely a bit too much fast burning powder!

I did not test for accuracy ..... too cold and windy! I did keep the Duo-Fasts in my pocket to keep them somewhat warm.

I decided at the last minute to take a few .315" diameter round balls with me to try them as well.
2 power level - 957 & 962 f.p.s.

Accuracy testing will commence when the weather warms up a bit.........

w30wcf

Very Good information!
Now I can compare actual test results to the 'published' Powder Tool Load Data:
"Color-coding for the "rounds" or "single shots" (the three shot strengths or colors typically sold to the general public are brown, green and yellow in brass):
In brass casing:
Color-coding Velocity
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s)
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

The next set do not seem to be commercially available any longer (high Velocity tool loads perhaps)
In nickel (silver) casings:
(7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
(8)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s)
(9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
(10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
(11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
(12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"


Now to the comparison:
Grade 2- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s) vs W30wcf Grade 2 power level - 817 f.p.s. average of 3 rounds with 31-090A 90 grain bullet.

Grade 3- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s) vs W30wcf Grade 3 power level - 969 f.p.s. average of 5 rounds with 31-090A 90 grain bullet.

Grade 4- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s) vs W30wcf Grade 4 power level - 1,125 f.p.s. (one round) with 31-090A 90 grain bullet.

It seems the Powder Tool Loads are rated with a heavier mass to be moved, by about double or so.
Also w30wcf experience with just a Grade 4 pushing the 90 grain bullet causing the 'Blank' to expand in the Adapter, making its extraction from the Adapter Casing difficult indicates that there is some possible future extraction problems with Loads of grade 4 or higher when used as stand alone charges in the Adapters.

Tentative conclusions, subject top further testing:
1. It seems Grade 2 and Grade 3 Loads, by themselves when used in .32 LC Adapters, are suitable for use with 90 grain Bullets in rifles chambered for the .32 Long RF or the .32 Long Colt CF cartridges.
2. Also, from the information in other posts, it seems that either .22 Blanks or both the .22 and .27 Powder Tool Loads, when opened and powder charge removed may be used as primers for "Duplex" loads in the same firearms. More testing is needed to determine the best proportion of BP and suitable Smokeless powder to use in the "Duplex" loads. Indications to date are that the Blank primer is somewhat 'weak' to properly directly ignite Smokeless Powder charges as used to date in these Firearms.

Please review and comment on the above conclusions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Also: so far to date I have not been able to find ANY sources for Grade 1 Powder Tool Loads (PTL) in any caliber.
The strongest PTL I have found offered currently anywhere is a Grade 6, and that only in one Caliber from an Industrial Supplier.
Back in the early 1970s I had a source for Grade 7 PTLs but that seems to have dried up since 'high Velocity' tools were phased out by OHSA and other regulations.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Watching this thread with interest, just joined up here - but I've been playing around with .32 RF reloads myself over the past year using .32 SC brass & the .27 Cal ramsets, both the Green & round ball alone; and recently got some heeled boolits for it which I'm trying using the cut-down ramset as a primer only with Bullseye or Trail Boss (I like the TB better, had some ignition issues with the Bullseye).

I found the green .27 by itself was VERY hard to punch out of the .32 brass; whereas used as a primer only with variously Bullseye and Trail Boss, they could be punched out with ease. So I'll be interested to read ndnchf's results.

Accuracy was surprisingly good out of my Stevens using both. I have a .32 revolver that was probably minute-of-barn in 1878 and remains that way, not a great test unit.

I also tried different ways of cutting down the Ramsets, including a small tubing cutter for brake lines and found the same problem - too difficult to turn the cartridge to cut it. I'm just placing the plastic holder of the ramsets in my vice & cuttin' em all with a hacksaw but yes, it leaves the cuts pretty rough.

[ndnchf]

Chev - I think you've captured things pretty well. I would only add that for the .32 XL case (3/8" longer than the .32 Long) that the larger capacity may lower pressure slightly compared to the .32 Long case when all other factors are equal. The #4 yellow Duo-fast blanks MAY be ok in the .32 XL case and in the stronger #2 RRB action.

NCBB - welcome aboard! Always glad to have another participant in this project. Did you modify your .32 short cases for the .27 Ramsets? I modifed mine as described earlier. But I now prefer using cases modified for the .22 blanks because it leave a stronger .32 rim. Its basically the same procedure to modify for either .22 or .27 cal blanks, just different size drill bits. Although for the .22 blank cases, I also make a recess in the .32 rim for the firing pin. Could you expound on your Trail Boss load and experiences? I'm starting to experiment with it too.

[Chev. William]

Ndnchf,
RE: the Small tubing cutter you photographed with the Blank. I think you would have better luck with it if you replace the two backing rollers with one having narrower 'clearance' grooves in them, thereby allowing the blank to be positioned with more of its end available to turn.
I do know that some form of a groove is needed to allow the 'cutter' wheel to reach a small enough diameter for the tinniest tubing sizes to be cut.
Also perhaps offsetting the 'cutter' wheel and groove closer to one side would add further to the possible amount of the blank available to grasp for turning?
As the 'cutter' is probably hardened, I would imagine the use of a magnetic holder and a surface grinder would be needed to modify the 'cutter'.

NCBB,
Welcome and thanks for your comments on the .32 SC brass as Adapters and your experiences to date. Enjoy the discussion.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[I'll Make Mine]

It seems the Powder Tool Loads are rated with a heavier mass to be moved, by about double or so.

The steel driver unit in currently available .25 and .27 low velocity Powder Actuated Tools (Ramset, Hilti, etc.) weighs several ounces -- comparable to a 4-bore round ball, roughly, or roundly twenty times what a .32 round nose bullet weighs. It has to strike a hardened "pin" with enough energy/momentum to drive the pin in steel and/or concrete -- which requires nothing like the velocity of a bullet.

[Chev. William]

A practical application of physics, is it not?
Chuckling,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Perhaps with a lot of work and time the mini tubing cutter could be made to work. But I don't know that its worth my time to fool with it. I'm getting proficient at opening up the crimp and that seems to work. I find that pulling bullets from .22 shorts is quite easy and leaves a wide open .22 case mouth. But I'm excited about the idea of using loaded .22 blanks as is. This makes loading very easy.

I called VTI today, but they were out of stock on the sear. I'll call Taylors & Co tomorrow and see if they have one.

[tomsp8]

I got the 22 blank processing down to just over a minute each after some trial and error. I took a narrow
piece of thin metal (about an inch or so wide by about 5 inches long), and drilled a .224/.225 hole in it. This lets
me hold the case easier. After opening the crimp and dumping the powder, slide the blank into the
"holder", clip off the crimp at the "neck" area with side cutters, then slide an appropriate number of fender washers over the case and hit it with a good file. Remove the washers and deburr the outside with a few passes around the edges with the same file and the inside with a normal case chamfer tool. Gives me a nice round, clean, finished product and consistant length. I trimmed them to about .250 or so to limit their intrusion into the .32 case. Sounds complicated, but goes really fast once you get a rhythem going. Did a whole box so I've got 'em ready for the next batch to load.
I've got about 30 rounds loaded using 3f, and hoping to try them out this weekend. Might come up your way
to visit Pop, ND, if the weather looks like it will cooperate.

[ndnchf]

tomsp8 - It sounds like you have a good system worked out, much easier than trying to modify the tubing cutter. I'm curious about the .32 cases you are using. What size is the .22 case blank hole in them? I'm wondering how snug/loose the fit is. In the .32XL cases I made, the hole is about .003" larger than the .22 blank and that makes a loose fit. I take a pair of wire crimpers and squeeze the .22 case a little just above the rim. This makes it out of round enough to make a snug fit in the .32 case. If I make more .32XL cases, I may buy a .22 match chamber reamer for a closer fit (it wil also cut the rim recess more precisely). So was wondering what the tolerance is on your professionally made cases for comparision.

[w30wcf]

Very Good information!
Now I can compare actual test results to the 'published' Powder Tool Load Data:
"Color-coding for the "rounds" or "single shots" (the three shot strengths or colors typically sold to the general public are brown, green and yellow in brass):
In brass casing:
Color-coding Velocity
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s)
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

...........Now to the comparison:
Grade 2- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s) vs W30wcf Grade 2 power level - 817 f.p.s. average of 3 rounds with 31-090A 90 grain bullet.

Grade 3- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s) vs W30wcf Grade 3 power level - 969 f.p.s. average of 5 rounds with 31-090A 90 grain bullet.

Grade 4- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s) vs W30wcf Grade 4 power level - 1,125 f.p.s. (one round) with 31-090A 90 grain bullet.

Tentative conclusions, subject top further testing:
1. It seems Grade 2 and Grade 3 Loads, by themselves when used in .32 LC Adapters, are suitable for use with 90 grain Bullets in rifles chambered for the .32 Long RF or the .32 Long Colt CF cartridges.
2. Also, from the information in other posts, it seems that either .22 Blanks or both the .22 and .27 Powder Tool Loads, when opened and powder charge removed may be used as primers for "Duplex" loads in the same firearms. More testing is needed to determine the best proportion of BP and suitable Smokeless powder to use in the "Duplex" loads. Indications to date are that the Blank primer is somewhat 'weak' to properly directly ignite Smokeless Powder charges as used to date in these Firearms.

Please review and comment on the above conclusions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Chev.William,
Based on the data, the approx ratio (f.p.s.) is the powder tool velocity x 2 for the 90 gr. bullet. (actuals are 2.12, 1.98, 1.96 respecively for the 2,3,4).

Tenative conclusions
1.) Yes. Based on testing that seems to be the case.
2.) 2.2 / Titegroup in either a .22 short or .22 l.r. case with a disc or tuft of cotton to hole it in place works very well. Other recipes to be determined.....

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Watching this thread with interest, just joined up here - but I've been playing around with .32 RF reloads myself over the past year using .32 SC brass & the .27 Cal ramsets, both the Green & round ball alone; and recently got some heeled boolits for it which I'm trying using the cut-down ramset as a primer only with Bullseye or Trail Boss (I like the TB better, had some ignition issues with the Bullseye).


NorthCoastBigBore,
Welcome to the forum. Could you share with us your charge weights for Trail Boss & Bullseye?

Thank you,
w30wcf

[w30wcf]

tomsp8,
Thank you for your explanation of converting the Duo-Fasts to primed cases.

I have experimented with a cut off wheel in a dremel tool and find that works very well.....quick too!

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

To recap a bit......smokeless combinations replicating the original .32 LC ballistics

31-090A bullet 91 grs.
modified R-P .32 LC case (.91") to hold the .22 cases
(ballistics would be comparable to the .78" case and either the 299153 or 31-090S

2.2 / Titegroup - 924 f.p.s. avg velocity cases* remove easily from .32 LC case after firing
.22 short* or .22 LR* case - bullet removed / powder dumped or a cut off Duo-Fast with powder removed - place 2.2/Titegroup into the case and use a small tuft of cotton to hold it in place.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22number3.jpg

left -.22 LR case with 2.2/Titegroup + cotton
middle - Duo-Fast Number 3 .22
right - Duo-Fast Number 3 .22 fired in modified .32 LC case

Duo-Fast Number 3 .22 - 969 f.p.s average velocity
Petals expand but the fired case can be removed fairly easily with a punch or nail with a flattened tip to fit into the spent case.
To remove - Place the .32LC case on top of another .32LC case. Place the punch or nail into the .22 case. Tap lightly with a light hammer and out it comes. :grin:

Another way would be to take a piece of 1/4" steel rod, place it in a lathe and drill into the end using a #3 center drill. By placing the .32 LC case on a hard surface and the drilled end of the rod over the mouth of the spent Duo-Fast and tapping it lightly, the crimp area will be reduced and the case removed by finger pressure only (same as the .22 short or .22 l.r. case above).

w30wcf

[tomsp8]

W,
I'm sure I can vouch for everyone that thanks is in order for the trials you're doing.
I tried the cut off wheel, but popped the priming compound a couple times so I quit... Maybe a tiny piece of
cloth in the bottom might prevent it?
ND,
The .32 case prep was a bit of a pain, but again, worked out a somewhat efficient system. I don't
have any real machining tools, so I generally have to wing it. My .308 collet crimp die is perfect
for holding the case. Drop it in from the top, the rim holds it, then raise the ram with a shellholder in
place. I used my leg to hold the handle down, then used an electric drill to drill out the flash hole. The drill
has a built in bubble level on the back, so just eyeballed it as I drilled with a 7/32 bit. Followed that up with
a .220 reamer my b.in law gave me, chucked in the drill, then used a thin (abt .150) steel rod, chucked in the drill, with some self adhesing 320 grit paper wrapped around it to final polish it out to about .223/.224. Gotta change the paper after about 5 or six cases, but easy enough to do. A bit larger reamer would let me skip that last
step, maybe, but that's all I got, so gotta make do....
I then use a piece of metal tubing with a thick flange to install the blank. No idea what it is for, but is
perfect for my needs! Drop the .32 case in upside down, it rests on the rim, and install the blank.
I can just get the blank started by hand, then use the handle of a small hammer (or something similar) to push
the blank in. No need to tap it, just push it firmly. Then my handy flange tool lets me deprime by setting
the case on top and drive out the blank with a metal rod that just fits inside the .22 case. The inner diameter
of the "handy loading tool" is just larger than the .22 rim diameter so it drops right through and the
flange gives plenty of support for the .32 rim to rest on. Kinda hard to describe the "handy tool", so I'll
try to post a pic.
Recessing the blank is another step of course. I chose to leave mine about .008/.010 proud of the
.32 case. They fit the shell holder and allow the gun's action to close at that level, and the firing pin
lights them off.
Sorry for the long post, guys!

[tomsp8]

"Custom Handy Tool" lol
97222

[kootne]

w30wcf, do you see an advantage of the 2.2 Titegroup load over the DualFast #3 load? Velocities are close, seems less work to just load the nail gun blanks. If removing the spent blanks is an issue maybe an answer is looking at some sort of sleeve ( friction held by the blank) to prevent the blank from expanding too much.
Just thinkin'
kootne

[ndnchf]

tomsp8 - My mistake, I thought you had bought pre-made .32 cases. Nice work making them with what you have. Your cases probably seal better than mine with that tight fit of the .22 case. If the crowning job helps this #2 RRB to shoot decent I will be very happy (hope to find out that tomorrow). The 20 .32 XL cases I made were kind of a trial. If the rifle shoots well enough to justify the effort to make more (and better) cases, I have another fifty 327 Federal Magnum cases to make .32 XL with. Since their doesn't seem to be comercially available .224" - .225" drill bit or reamer, I will probably order a.22 match reamer (about $43 from Midway) to make better fitting cases.

[kootne]

tomsp8 - My mistake, I thought you had bought pre-made .32 cases. Nice work making them with what you have. Your cases probably seal better than mine with that tight fit of the .22 case. If the crowning job helps this #2 RRB to shoot decent I will be very happy (hope to find out that tomorrow). The 20 .32 XL cases I made were kind of a trial. If the rifle shoots well enough to justify the effort to make more (and better) cases, I have another fifty 327 Federal Magnum cases to make .32 XL with. Since their doesn't seem to be comercially available .224" - .225" drill bit or reamer, I will probably order a.22 match reamer (about $43 from Midway) to make better fitting cases.

I would try a #2 drill .221, I did some that way and they worked fine with the CCI noise blanks. I think those nail gun blanks some of you are using may be a heavier construction. That may make them harder to press in, I don't know. My current "technology" is an L bit that I ground down a pilot of .224" so I can drill and cut the step in one process. Haven't tried it yet tho.
kootne

[ndnchf]

Kootne - when I drilled mine I started with a #2 and then went to a #1. What I need is a #1.5! There are quite a few different .22 reamers available, but this one with a base diameter of .2242" seams just about right.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/408967/ptg-solid-pilot-chamber-finish-reamer-22-long-rifle-freeland-mg

This would cut the hole to just the right size and the rim recess all at one time. Its a little pricey, but worthwhile if I really want to make gas tight cases.

[Chev. William]

tomsp8 - My mistake, I thought you had bought pre-made .32 cases. Nice work making them with what you have. Your cases probably seal better than mine with that tight fit of the .22 case. If the crowning job helps this #2 RRB to shoot decent I will be very happy (hope to find out that tomorrow). The 20 .32 XL cases I made were kind of a trial. If the rifle shoots well enough to justify the effort to make more (and better) cases, I have another fifty 327 Federal Magnum cases to make .32 XL with. Since their doesn't seem to be comercially available .224" - .225" drill bit or reamer, I will probably order a.22 match reamer (about $43 from Midway) to make better fitting cases.

Have you considered custom sharpening an available reamer down to the size you want for the .22blanks?

Also any Chamber reamer is going cut the hole oversize so cases will drop in, not press in.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[kootne]

Have you considered custom sharpening an available reamer down to the size you want for the .22blanks?

Also any Chamber reamer is going cut the hole oversize so cases will drop in, not press in.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

That is sort of what I did, the "L" bit is .290" (cuts the rim step), the foward portion of the bit I ground down to .224 for drilling the section that needs to be a press fit. It is probably best described as a counter boring drill bit. Been busy on some other projects and haven't got it tried out yet. I have high hopes, we will see.
kootne

[w30wcf]

tomsp8,
Nice work. Thank you for the explanation of your process. I also used a 7/32" drill and used some fine emery cloth to open the hole to the proper diameter. I am thinking of getting the .224" reamer as noted below.

I am thinking that perhaps the heat may have set off the primer when you tried using the cut off wheel(?). I took a .32 bullet and drilled a .227" hole through the center. I place a case in that and chuck it in a 1/2" power drill and turn it on. The dremel cut off wheel takes about 2-3 seconds to cut the crimp end off. So far, no primers have fired. I have been emptying the powder first but then decided to try it without removing the powder. Works great.......but wear safety glasses...

kootne,
The Number 3 would be the easiest way to go but I'll have to see how the accuracy is between that and the 2.2/Titegroup. I had thought about making a bushing 1/2" or so long to fit the i.d. of the case with a .224" hole through the center. The reduced case capacity might also mean that the Number 2 might be enough to get the velocity to 900 f.p.s.

ndnchf,
MSC has a .224" reamer
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/02022408

They also offer .223 & .225.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Everybody:
Please forgive the of subject post but I thought to share photos of my Stevens 1915 Action mocked up with a mostly adapted used butt stock and a Stevens 1894 Barrel in .32 Long:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/20140219_Picture001_crop1_zps3694f741.jpg

There is presently no firing pin in the action and the barrel is not head spaced nor fitted to the action.
Below the mockup on the left is my just picked up Stevens "44" receiver and on the right are two Links that I purchased as part of a lot of miscellaneous 'Stevens Favorite' parts. I believe they MAY be Model 44 Links, the dark one on the left is typical fo the drawing in Frank de Haas Book and the one on the right seems to have the 'clump' that works with a spring and plunger inside the Lever to hold the action closed in spite of looseness in the pins or pivots.

The next two photos are progressive closeups of the details:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/20140218_Picture002_crop1_zps205d0847.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/20140218_Picture003_crop1_zps79be5b15.jpg

Thank you for looking, now back to the subject of this thread:

W30wcf,
I feel you may have an interesting project matching the internal contour of the case, with its taper and radius between side wall and web, all of which vary between manufacturers. Perhaps a filled epoxy casting slip fitted into the case would work (Locktite to hold in case or a cannulure in the case wall)?
Something like the 'base wad' of a shotgun shell.

Careful consideration is needed for this idea. A 'filler' following the bullet partway down the barrel would not make for a happy day. A step discontinuity in the wall thickness might reduce the case life and its ability to seal the chamber.

I am sure you will come up with a useful solution to this 'problem'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William