Pic of Hammer Back on Gun Firing

[Silver Jack Hammer]

A professional photographer was taking a picture of me firing a Colt single action revolver. The pictures came out showing the muzzle flash of the round being fired but the pictures also showed the hammer still back while the pistol was firing. This puzzled our puzzlers, to say the least. How can the gun fire with the hammer back? Yet there it is recorded in pictures. The professional photographer had set up two flashes. The range was blacked out. The photographer told me to fire when the flash illuminated me for the picture. I fired as soon as the flash lit me up. The photographer had done with guys shooting shell shuckers with no problem but now that dang stinking silver hammer was in the cocked position in the photos when the gun fired.

Ah, epiphany. The palm of the photographer went to the forehead with a resounding slap. Good thing, I was about to change my brand of liquor. What was happening was the photographer set up the shutter speed real slow to allow me time to fire after the flash went off. Forgive me for not using digital photography terms. The range was blacked out to allow the slow shutter speed. So the shutter opened when the flash fired and remained open long enough for me to react and pull the trigger. The hammer on the 3rd gen Colt is silver so the flash captured it in the cocked position. Then I’d fire igniting the Blue Dot which happened while the shutter was still open. The image recorded was both the hammer back and the ignition of the powder coming out of the barrel and barrel cylinder gap. The photographer said he could digitally alter the pic to remove the silver hammer in the cocked position. I told him next time use a grease pencil and blacken out the side of the silver hammer. He said the finished product looks good. He must have digitally altered my face then too if the pics look good.

Love to chat longer guys but gotta go, have a pot of melted alloy waiting for me right now!

[JohnnyFlake]

Great story but pics are needed for full effect!!!

[stubshaft]

Where's da pics???

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Pics are the property of the photographer, who was doing the shoot at the request of another man so there are propriety issues. I'll ask for them, then there will the challenge of me posting them.

[BBGun]

I've seen this before. When the cartridge fires the explosion pushes the primer against the hammer back thus the pic. After that the hammer falling back into place pushes the primer back into position.
JMHO

[tomme boy]

Too long of exposure time on the camera. Thats how they get the pics with flames coming out everywhere on the gun at the same time. Thats why the picture shows the hammer all the way back.

[Longwood]

Sort of trick photography. Sort of,,,, you can do it also.
He used a long exposure to get the picture.
The flash lit you up with the hammer back. When the gun went off, it was dark so you and the lowered hammer did not show up, only the muzzle flash.
Had you waited a split second longer, the camera would have missed the muzzle flash.

[runfiverun]

he already explained it.
handloader had a similar picture in thier mag about 10-11 years ago and got a lot of comments on it.
if a single action blows the hammer back like that it generally goes full auto,and that would really have made for a time lapse picture.
it also means the firing pin bushing is bad, and most likely the firing pin too.

[subsonic]

You mean like how Munden's guns work?

[MtGun44]

Usually, this kind of pic is a double exposure. One with the lights on or flash, the second
with no flash or lights and the muzzle blast showing. In the first, the hammer is back, can't
see it in the second.

Bill

[44man]

I have explained this many times here. It is hammer bounce from the force against the firing pin from the primer.
It is why you can find double strikes on primers, mostly on S&W guns.
It is why when the cylinder unlocks on the S&W, turns backwards then doubles. The hammer is back from bounce and the cylinder has turned to a live round.
The cylinder stop spring is too light on some and inertia swings it forward and down, unlocking the cylinder, torque spins it backwards.
If your .500 ever doubled, keep the first chamber under the hammer empty.
Those that insist on light hammer springs can have a hammer go almost full cock with every shot. This is why a SA can go auto but the cylinder is being turned by the hand.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The hammer in the photograph or digital image is captured in the cocked position because that is where the hammer was when the flash illuminated the moment. The shutter was open, and then I pulled the trigger and the gun fired, while the shutter was still open. Human reaction time is a quarter of a second. The shutter was set to remain open for a long time and the recording was being done in a blacked out environment. The recording included the entire sequence from the hammer back to the discharge of the boolit, all while the shutter was open.

The springs on my Colts are Colt factory, mainspring, cylinder bolt, trigger spring. If the hammer had bounced, then some force of inertia would have to force to bounce against the mainspring tension. 11 gr of Blue Dot and a 240 gr cast boolit simply doesn’t produce enough recoil; the round is relatively mild in comparison to a .44 Mag or .500 although it is hot for a Colt SAA.

I had an old Smith and Wesson S serial number that unlocked at the cylinder bolt during firing, and although it could have been fixed, I sold it.

The theory of a SAA going full auto requires the recoil shield being drilled out so that the primers would fly out of the brass to allow the pressure from the firing to cock the hammer. The theory would require after firing evidence of all the primers missing from the cases. The shooter would be in danger of being hit by the primers, but he would certainly feel the gas being blown back in his face. I had a case head failure in my Beretta 92 years ago, I certainly felt the gas blown back in my face, but the Berreta was not damaged.

You might be onto something 44man. There is an interesting theory as to why single action revolvers blow up; the cylinder unlocks and the boolit hits the edge of the forcing cone or barrel and stops, resulting in blowing the cylinder and top strap. This theory is debunked because if the cylinder is out of alignment then the primer would not be lined up with the falling firing pin, the gun wouldn’t fire. Yet in all these single actions that blow up, they all have very light competition after market non factory springs. What if the cylinder unlocks during firing causing the boolit to miss the forcing cone and stop at the edge of the barrel. The easiest explanation to the blow ups is a case with a double charge of powder, but these single actions are blowing with extremely light i.e. mouse flatulence charges of powder and light boolit weights. The charges are so light that a double charge of powder is still within SAAMI pressure specs for the cartridge with that boolit weight. I know, I’ve tested double charges of light loads and I have intentionally blown up a single action revolver under a controlled environment.

No word back yet on releasing the pics.

[Multigunner]

I've had a replica 1851 navy fire three shots full auto due to over size flash holes and a too hot loose fitting cap, a weak mainspring added to the situation.
This was not a case of chain firing, the hammer was blown back far enough to rotate and index the cylinder for each shot.

This was an occasional problem with the bar hammer pepper boxe pistols. I ran across a article on treating of gunshot wounds in the old west, and full auto firing of the pepper box was mentioned there.
IIRC one of the cable channel history programs caught a pepper box firing full auto on video.

Recoil alone can kick a hammer back if the main spring is weak, though seldom past half cock position.
The entire pistol moves back but the frame slows down faster due to its mass, the hammer continues to be thrown back.

After fixing the mainspring of my replica 51 , the mainspring itself was strong enough but the mounting point on the front strap was not at the proper angle, I compared the replica to my brother's original 51 Navy and found that despite its age the original main spring was much stronger than any replica spring I've seen yet.
Speed and resulting inertia of the hammer fall is important in preventing caps blowing off the nipples. Same basic principle as the heavy bolt of a SMG.

[Thor's Daddy]

The hammer in the photograph or digital image is captured in the cocked position because that is where the hammer was when the flash illuminated the moment...

There's another way to skin this cat. Most digital cameras that are worth a hoot have a feature commonly known as rear curtain sync. Said feature makes the flash fire immediately before the (second) curtain closes, ending the exposure.

Had this feature been employed by your photographer, the hammer would have been in the desired position during the electronic flash portion of the exposure and no photoshopping would have been needed.

At least not to the gun :bigsmyl2:

The photographer would only have needed to give you a verbal command at the beginning of the exposure to fire. You yank the trigger (boom/pause), the flash fires and it's a done deal.

FWIW, I was a professional shooter before I became an amateur one. My specialty was/is overcoming technical problems with a minimum of equipment.

Sorry to be a geek.

[tek4260]

I have explained this many times here. It is hammer bounce from the force against the firing pin from the primer.
It is why you can find double strikes on primers, mostly on S&W guns.
It is why when the cylinder unlocks on the S&W, turns backwards then doubles. The hammer is back from bounce and the cylinder has turned to a live round.
The cylinder stop spring is too light on some and inertia swings it forward and down, unlocking the cylinder, torque spins it backwards.
If your .500 ever doubled, keep the first chamber under the hammer empty.
Those that insist on light hammer springs can have a hammer go almost full cock with every shot. This is why a SA can go auto but the cylinder is being turned by the hand.



Like the photos in the this link. About 3/4 through the article there is a picture of what I think is hammer bounce

https://sites.google.com/site/hobbyhintstricksideas/Home/s-w-329pd-info

[44man]

Like the photos in the this link. About 3/4 through the article there is a picture of what I think is hammer bounce

https://sites.google.com/site/hobbyhintstricksideas/Home/s-w-329pd-info
Exactly! You can see how hard it hit too. The cylinder stop spring is the culprit. Combine with a weaker mainspring and hammers really move.
Remember some of the 29's where the second shot was a click? The cylinder rotated back to the previous fired round.
We have a great picture of a SA hammer bounce just as flame is starting at the gap before the gun has moved from recoil, it is back pretty far.
This is all different from some of the old SA Colts that had a large pin hole for the hammer mounted firing pin. Some were too long and sharp. They would puncture a primer and the gas would cock the gun, since the trigger was still back, it would go auto for a shot or so.
I was watching top gun last night and they had slow motion of a Colt firing, a clear picture of hammer bounce in one shot.
Anyway, from what I seen there, I do not want one of those Smith 329's. :veryconfu

[Larry Gibson]

It's a simple double or over exposure phenomenon as Silver Jack says, not "hammer bounce" . It would take one hell of a load to get a SSA hammer to bounce back to full cock from the primer......probably a lot more than the Colt could stand up to. I've seen a lot of loads fired in SSA's and never seen a hammer bounce back to the "safety" notch let alone half or full cock. Got to think also that if that hammer "bounced" back to full cock the cylinder would have rotated also and that would really have messed up things with the bullet and expanding gas not clearing the fired chamber 1st.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

It's a simple double or over exposure phenomenon as Silver Jack says, not "hammer bounce" . It would take one hell of a load to get a SSA hammer to bounce back to full cock from the primer......probably a lot more than the Colt could stand up to. I've seen a lot of loads fired in SSA's and never seen a hammer bounce back to the "safety" notch let alone half or full cock. Got to think also that if that hammer "bounced" back to full cock the cylinder would have rotated also and that would really have messed up things with the bullet and expanding gas not clearing the fired chamber 1st.

Larry Gibson
You will not feel it at the notches because the trigger is still back. The hammer does not stop, then go forward again. The bounce is so quick you need to snap a picture at just the right instant and it could take 50 pictures to catch it, but we did once with a BFR, on the bench. I will see if I can get the picture from Whitworth. The hammer is back but is still short of hand engagement. The cylinder unlocks but seems to stay in place when the hammer returns.
I have never, ever had a double primer strike on a SA. That means the cylinder has not turned.
THE HAMMER DOES NOT GO TO FULL COCK, it just bounces.
With a SA and a decent spring, the bounce is no concern at all, it just does not mean anything. Bounce and return is all over before recoil comes on. But I assure you, the hammer does come back.
Now the S&W is different and there is turn involved. I found too many primers with double strikes and a few with a strike on the brass. Hammers appear to either stay back longer or go too far so a reverse rotation of the cylinder from recoil and torque can go clear to the last chamber shot but if there is a live round there because it was your first shot, that chamber might go off.
Go look for the videos of the X frame .500 doubling, second shot going off with the gun about half up in recoil. IT IS NOT THE NEXT SHOT IN LINE, it was the first round under the hammer.
Videos show a reverse rotation at the bench. Magic marker at the fired chamber turns out on the right side of the gun, clockwise turn and everyone knows a S&W's normal rotation is counter clockwise.
You are also mistaken about it being a heavy load, it is just normal pressure in the case and can happen with any load.
Even a little too much head space can have the primer movement add to the punch from the flash hole before the case movement re seats the primer.
So far only the X frame .500 has doubled, either the high pressure loads, fierce recoil and torque, reverse rotation a function of twist direction. Change twist direction and you might have a full auto on your hands, not pleasant with a .500.
Simple fix? Beef up the cylinder stop spring. The stop is controlled by the trigger and with the trigger back, it should never move out of the notches.
Make a test Larry. Set up good video slow mo stuff, test a gun, then drill out some flash holes and test them.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The photographer will not release the pics.

There is no way the camera could have recorded any such hammer bounce, the gun fired after the camera's flash. If the hammer would have bounced, the camera would not have recorded it. Furthermore I say again, these are factory springs of full weight and .44 Special loads. The hammer bounce is just not possible in this scenario.

[PanaDP]

This is easy guys; I'm speaking as a professional photographer. It's essentially a double exposure as Silver Jack Hammer said above. You said the strobes he set up were the cue to fire. What happened is that the gun was photographed before it was actually fired.


Here's a timeline:

-Shutter opens (camera exposure begins)
-Strobes fire and record the image of you and the gun
-You fire the gun and the muzzle flash is recorded because it is very bright
-Shutter closes (camera exposure ceases)

Whether or not the strobes were lit when you fired is irrelevant. The camera can easily record you and the gun in strobe light and then simply stay open to record the muzzle flash. The camera makes one moment out of two: the moment immediately before you pull the trigger and the moment consisting of the muzzle flash.

[44man]

This is easy guys; I'm speaking as a professional photographer. It's essentially a double exposure as Silver Jack Hammer said above. You said the strobes he set up were the cue to fire. What happened is that the gun was photographed before it was actually fired.


Here's a timeline:

-Shutter opens (camera exposure begins)
-Strobes fire and record the image of you and the gun
-You fire the gun and the muzzle flash is recorded because it is very bright
-Shutter closes (camera exposure ceases)

Whether or not the strobes were lit when you fired is irrelevant. The camera can easily record you and the gun in strobe light and then simply stay open to record the muzzle flash. The camera makes one moment out of two: the moment immediately before you pull the trigger and the moment consisting of the muzzle flash.
Then why did we get the picture with a single picture and no flash involved? Video showed cylinder movement along with hammer bounce.
When we had flame from the gap, none from the muzzle and a hammer back, it means the hammer bounced.
No double exposure from one picture, the gun has fired but the boolit has not left the barrel yet.
Dispute forever but hammers do bounce.
The slow motion pictures showed bounce and that is not strobe. It is super fast shutter speed. There is no way to show flame from a gap and the hammer before it hits in one picture.

[Longwood]

Then why did we get the picture with a single picture and no flash involved? Video showed cylinder movement along with hammer bounce.
When we had flame from the gap, none from the muzzle and a hammer back, it means the hammer bounced.
No double exposure from one picture, the gun has fired but the boolit has not left the barrel yet.
Dispute forever but hammers do bounce.
The slow motion pictures showed bounce and that is not strobe. It is super fast shutter speed. There is no way to show flame from a gap and the hammer before it hits in one picture.

We gotit already.
Your photo shows hammer bounce. Swell!
His photo does not.
The correct answer was explained numerous times.

[PanaDP]

Dispute forever but hammers do bounce.

That's fine. I didn't dispute that hammer bounce happens. I was detailing how the photo mentioned in the original post would have been made in one exposure. Don't ever put words in my mouth like that. It's rude.


There is no way to show flame from a gap and the hammer before it hits in one picture.

Yes there is and I told you exactly how to do it. Without much difficulty, I can create a strobe/camera/trigger setup that could, once dialed in, could recreate that photograph of a hammer back revolver with muzzle flash at least nine times out of ten.