Newbie Here, Leading on Lands Near Muzzle?

[Naga]

Hello everyone. This past weekend, I fired my first cast rifle boolits out of two different rifles. Both rifles have nice bores with no major defects or frosting. The rifles and loads were as follows:

Finnish M39 Mosin Nagant (slugs at .3112")
NOE 316299 sized to .314"
Gas checked
Pan lubed with Javelina
36gr H4831
3/4gr Dacron filler

Swiss K31 (slugs at .3073")
Lee 309-160 sized to .309"
Gas checked
Pan lubed with Javelina
26gr H4895
3/4gr Dacron filler

I was unsure how hard to make the boolits, so I decided that "too much is better than not enough," and cast them out of water dropped Rotometals hardball alloy.

Either way, I had little time at the range, so I only fired 10 rounds through the Mosin, and 20 rounds through the K31. I only shot at 25 yards, and accuracy at that range was nothing to write home about (about 1" for both guns.) However, upon cleaning the guns, I discovered that both guns have some leading on the lands, starting about 2" from the muzzle.

The boolits were well sized, and cast from a hard alloy. They were also gas checked and lubed with (what I thought was) good lube. I found it odd that the leading didn't seem to extend into the grooves, so I did a search on this forum, and found someone suggesting that I lube the noses of the boolits (the Javelina I applied was only in the lube grooves.)

Could lubing the noses help with this problem? How, and with what, should I lube the noses? Finally, does anyone have any other suggestions as to what I could do about this issue?

Thanks.

[tomme boy]

Muzzle is larger than the rest of the bore could be what is happening. Or just running out of lube.

[stubshaft]

Did you notice if you had developed a "lube star" at the muzzle?

Did you make sure all traces of copper fouling were removed?

The easiest way that I've found to lube the nose it to dip it in thinned xlox.

[Naga]

Thanks for the replies.

During slugging and cleaning, I have not noticed the bore being loose at the muzzle on either rifle, so I doubt that is the problem.

I did not recall seeing any lube star at the muzzle on either rifle, but I didn't look closely, and I have already cleaned them, so I don't have a way of telling for sure at this time.

For a few days before I took them to the range, I had been cleaning them with Wipe Out. The patches were no longer coming out blue, and were in fact almost spotless.

To lube the boolits, I simply placed them in the pan, and filled it until the lube covered the lube grooves. How would you recommend diluting the Alox?

[leftiye]

Swab the bore with mule snot before shooting. That way you start with a "wet" bore (as contrasted with dry bore). Then maybe your bore will act lubed and maybe no problem will develop. Otherwise, you need a better loob or a slower boolit.

[Jim]

Swab the bore with mule snot before shooting. That way you start with a "wet" bore (as contrasted with dry bore). Then maybe your bore will act lubed and maybe no problem will develop.....

Has anyone ever verified this procedure as effective? I've never heard of it, but it's an interesting concept.

[rhbrink]

Better believe it works. Years ago when I was shooting BPCR and hadn't yet discovered a good lube I would wipe the bore with some of the lube that I was using and never had a lead problem. Now days I have a really rough Russian, the inside of the barrel looks kind of like the out side of a corn cob, I wipe the bore with Bullplate and it shoots very well with boolits for 20 to 25 rounds. It then gets what looks like a lead wash but the lead doesn't stick and wipes out. I do this on any bore that is on the rough side. Good barrels and good lube I don't bother to do this.

Richard

[DLCTEX]

Lube with Carnuba Red in rifles for temps over 50*, use BAC for cooler temps.

[rockrat]

I usually coat my boolits that I am going to shoot at 2000fps or higher with a thinned coat of LLA. I usually dilute it about 8/1 mineral spirits/LLA. Can make a big difference in group size.

[Goatwhiskers]

Just went thru this with my 357Max, 24" barrel. Been shooting RD359190GC, sized 359, lubed with LLA dipped, and swabbed the bore with LLA before shooting. No leading and accuracy was extremely good. Switched to the plain based version, same powder charge, lube, etc, accuracy went to pot from the first shot and leaded the last 6" of my barrel. Bottom line is when you lead out at the end of the barrel you're running out of lube. Got a couple of things I'm gonna try, but basically just gonna have to slow the plain boolits down, or cut 6" off my barrel (like that's gonna happen). Goat

[Larry Gibson]

Javelina is an excellent lube. I use it from 2-300 fps up to 2600+ without leading problems

I suggest that since the Rotometal metal bullets were "water dropped hardball" what you see is antimony wash and not leading. You have fallen to the "hard is better" concept which is not true. This is especially the case with the very mild psi/velocity loads you used.

The 4831 load in the 7.62x54R is pretty much the "starting" load I suggest with that powder. The 4895 in the 7.65 Swiss is below the "starting" load I would suggest if that powder were to be used. It is not really not even the powder I would suggest for a 160 gr cast bullet at such a low psi/velocity produced. Instead I would suggest 2400, 4227, 4759, 5744 or even RL7 or 3031, all would have been much better and used with the dacron filler of course.

I suggest;

Mix an alloy of 70/30 Rotometal/lead. Cast the bullets and let air cool for 10+ days. Size the NOE's the same at .314 and size the Lee's at .311. Lube and GC making sure the GC is well and squarely seated on the GC shank. Lube with Javelina, pan lubing should be fine.

Use the 4895 in the 7.62x54R with the NOE bullet, start at 30 gr, use the dacron filler and work up in 1 gr increments to 34 gr. Then tweak 1/2 gr +/- of the best load.

In the 7.65 Swiss with the Lee bullet; use 2400, 4227, 5749 or 5744, use the 3/4 gr dacron filler, start at 16 gr and work up in 1 gr increments. With 3031 or RL7 start at 28 gr and work up in 1 gr increments with the dacron filler.

Use 10 shot test groups at 100 yards (too easy to look at the target at 25 yards and not focus on the front sight). Do not ignore "flyers" unless they are a real "called shot" that goes to the call. Work up until accuracy goes south which will be in the 1600 - 1900 fps range depending on the powder.
You can then also tweak +/- by 1/2 gr after finding the accuracy point with each powder in each cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Antimony wash. Don't worry about it unless it's accumulating to the point that accuracy problems occur. You want your tin percentage and antimony percentage to be closer to each other, but never more tin than antimony.

Listen to Larry on the loading info. If you were shooting a 200+grain boolit at max velocity your powder choice would work better, but I wouldn't go slower than 4350 in either of those cases, and only TO 4350 with heavies. Try starting loads of Reloder 7 and up to one grain of Dacron fluffed between the boolit base and powder in the Mosin. Reduce the filler as you work up the charge.

Gear

[Naga]

Thanks for the information, everyone.

The leading/antimony wash/whatever it was was easily removed with five strokes of the bronze brush. Out of curiosity, what are the mechanics behind antimony wash, and why would it be more likely with the mild loads I used?

As for powder selection and boolit weight, I chose them based on reading and suggestions on this forum. I plan on pushing the Mosin boolits faster, hence the H4831, and the stated powder charges in my original post were the starting charges I was testing. As for the K31, I know the powder choice wasn't the best, but I chose that powder to go with the NOE 180gr K31 mold I have on order.

Larry, is there a different powder choice you would recommend for either of these boolit weights? I would eventually like to have the boolits for both rifles moving somewhere closer to 2,000 fps, to allow for longer range target shooting, as well as occasional hunting. Also, all I have right now is the Hardball alloy. Until I place another Rotometals order, do you think it would be fine to just use air cooled Hardball for my boolits, or is the added lead content that important?

EDIT: I just did some more reading on antimony wash, and discovered that it is related to the amount of antimony in the alloy relative to the amount of tin. Therefore, would using the #2 alloy from Rotometals (90/5/5) reduce the likelihood of antimony wash?

[leftiye]

Might do. As has been said, dilute that 90/5/5 half and half with pure lead. It will still heat treat to BHN 22 if you need more hardness. Should be around BHN 14 diluted and non hardened. Quite close to 50/50 wheelweights and pure. Size to the freebore, should seal well and shoot well. I run my .375 H&H 320 grain HPGC with 50/50 WW/pure at about 2000 fps., powered with 30 grains 4795, with my own nutcase lube, shoots very well, no leading, no cleaning.