4198 and 4759 in 45/70 in YOUR gun. what are yur loads?

[Whiterabbit]

Simple question for those who have developed a 45/70 load for your gun with both 4198 and 4759. How close are the charges? Even better if you shoot heavy bullets.

I don't really care about the charge weight, just if they are similar or not.

I have a 4198 load that's good, but I'm trying 4759 now. for SAFETY it looks like I can just use the same charge weight, but I'd rather be in a ballpark to save lead. when I start to work up or down.

So! How do YOUR 4759 loads compare to your 4198 loads?

Thanks!

[44MAG#1]

For example: Lyman 49th edithin. trapdoor loads. 500 gr 457125 Sr4759 24 max at 16,700 CUP. IMR 4198 31.5 max at 17400 CUP
Ruger #1 loads 535 gr #457132 bullet 27.0 gr SR4759 at 26600 CUP. IMR 4198 38.0 gr at 27500 CUP
Ruger #1 loads are start loads.
Draw your own conclusions

[Whiterabbit]

Hi 44 mag,

I have access to a few reloading manuals at home.

I am asking because I want to hear about people's experiences.

There is not a single answer below mine that needs to reference a number. I don't need numbers.

Thanks!

[44MAG#1]

Whiterabbit:
You make a statement like this one: "I have a 4198 load that's good, but I'm trying 4759 now. for SAFETY it looks like I can just use the same charge weight, but I'd rather be in a ballpark to save lead. when I start to work up or down."
Then you say you have load books???? As you can see if your charge weight is very low with 4198 you MAY be able to use the same charge weitgh of SR4759 but they are definately different enough to merit their OWN load data work up.
So there is your answer no matter what any one else says. There is no one in their right mind that would say it was okay judgeing from the big differences in loads. as obtained by Lyman in a pressure gun.
At leat I hope there isn't.
If they are we all need to watch out.

[subsonic]

I have no experience with this. But I'll try to help since I don't see many answers yet.

SR4759 is a "faster" powder than either H or I 4198. I would put it much closer to H110 for weight vs pressure, burning speed, etc.

In summary, don't use as much 4759 as you use of 4198. You might get away with H110 data if you reduce and work up.

[subsonic]

I assume this is for the .460?

[44MAG#1]

The title says 45/70. why would it be for a 460?
I think responsible reloads will stay away from this.
I would hate to think that anyone on here would do anything but tell him NOT to take a chance like this.

[Whiterabbit]

My 4198 loads are pretty light. I'd rather not get into too much detail with you 44mag, there's some history with the 4198 and 4759 that I suspect you'd rather unravel before discussing your personal experiences with either powder and 45/70. Regardless for what caliber I'm loading for, my interest in this thread is based on people that load 45/70 using these powders, and their experiences.

It's not a request for advice. It's a request from me for others to talk about things they've done, maybe their results, and any other information about their experience they want to volunteer. I'm an audience.

This thread is not about problem solving!

[405]

44MAG#1
My sentiments are exactly the same as yours! I'd avoid this one like the plague. Also, the OP didn't say what kind of gun... since the question was posted in the handgun section... leaves one wondering??? Why in the world not use published pressure data, choose to ignore it, then insist on relying on third party, unknown, anonymous forum data??? beyond me!


Then again, just recently a guy in Kalifornia loaded a canon with "fireworks powder", touched it off and his girfriend was killed by the shrapnel. At least that's what the initial news report said... if you can believe those chuckle heads.

[44MAG#1]

I've used both in the 45/50 with both 500 gr an 550 gr bullets.
I got good results with both I like both but I worked both up as completely individual powders.
A smart person would.
Also I've used RL 7 which is CLOSE to the 4198's but I worked it up as an individual powder too.
I may do silly things but I am very cautious. Very Very cautious..
This is not ADVICE just a statement. Too much difference in the two powders.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm sorry guys, I asked my question in the wrong way. I tried to explain I'm not looking for load data, but I'm not being clear. Nevermind. I regret trying.

[44MAG#1]

take a deep breath and explain it again what you are looking for.
If not loading advice what is it.

[Frank]

The charges are not close. It's like a 9 grain difference with the 45/70. The 4198 load is slightly faster. Both are almost identical.

[44MAG#1]

Maybe faster in velocity but not in burn rate. Clarity.

[Whiterabbit]

im looking for a compare and contrast. Ideally for an identical cast bullet, loded for an identical gun. Not theoretical stuff, but someone's actual experiences. What they noticed about each powder.

what would be most useful is the experience of developing their 4759 load, 4759 qualitative details, how they compared to the developed 4198 load. Final powder charges are fine (they will not be duplicated!) but what is more interesting are the finer details that can't be found in a loading manual. Such as whether the most accurate of one was a different velocity than the other, or if one needed to be driven to max to equal group size of the other, or stand-out details of one vs the other, any of the good details that cant be found in loding books because they cant list caveats such as "this experience was based on gun X with bullet X tryingto do X, etc.

An open forum for empirical experiences (rather than the theory which is reltively easier to findin documentation and online)

[44MAG#1]

We all see now.
All I know is in my Uberti '74 sharps replica with a 34 inch barrel 23 gr SR4759 lyman 457125 Fed 210 and starline cases put 8 out of 11 shots in just under 6 inches at 300 yards without much fuss and muss using the venier tang peep with a post front insert.
As good as I can do with iron sights
That is it for me. Now with 4198 or RL 7 in a scoped Marlin... Oh well that is a different story.
Sorry.

[Whiterabbit]

oh rats, you don't have a uberti sharps load that uses the 4198 with the 457125?

[44MAG#1]

No I don't. The SR4759 loads shoots very well and I am very fond of it. In my Marlin I do but the way the bullet has to be seated the load would not be any benefit in a Sharps. Plus the bullet is heavier. And I am using H4198.
There again if I wanted to use the 4198's i would start at Trapdoor levels and work up a grain at a time till I got up to 28000-30000 CUP levels and check the accuracy. Once I found a good load I would go .5 under and .5 over and then load the good performing load and recheck firing 7 or 8 rounds of each. Now that is what I would do. I suspect that there those that will find fault with that but I am not into varying seating depth, primer type, amount of crimp if any or the way i hold my mouth or if it is the dark of the moon or what sign it is or whether I use pseudo-Einstein mentality on the chemical composition of the powder or the movement of the bullet as long as it moves swiftly toward the target in a close proximity to each other on the target.

[Frank]

Don't believe me. Look at a reloading manual for cast bullets. It's all right there. 4198 uses more powder.

[44MAG#1]

Frank said: "Don't believe me. Look at a reloading manual for cast bullets. It's all right there. 4198 uses more powder. "

Look at post #2. I gave data from Lymans 49th manual. He can see that.

[Frank]

44MAG#1:

Look at post #2. I gave data from Lymans 49th manual. He can see that.
You're right! You posted all that good information and he's still confused.

[44MAG#1]

I understand what he wants but from his first post he gave the wrong impression of what he wanted.
He wants to know for example. I one has an accuracy load of SR4759 at 23 gr and a 457125 bullet at 1200 fps and an accuracy load of lets say 30 gr of 4198 is the accuracy loads with both the same or very close in velocity of if the loads varied quite a bit.
Or if the accuracy load with one was near max but the accuracy could be closely duplicated with the other with a much less than max charge. It would be possible if one had a medium charge of 4198 for his accuracy load in the trapdoor range one could conceivably have a load of SR4759 that was very close in the starting Ruger #1 load range provided he was using a STRONG GUN and still be safe.
For example if one had an accuracy load for a Ruger # 1 of IMR 4198 at 29.5 grs a load with 29.5 gr if SR4759 would be more than safe since that is only a half grain from starting load in a #1. so due to CERTAIN circumstances if is POSSIBLE.
He wants to shortcut the data collecting for himself and asked the question in the wrong way as he stated. He originally got what he asked for so the old adage of "Be careful what you ask for because you may get it" holds true.
So there is the life as we know it on asking questions.

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks Mag. Does anyone else use both powders?

[44man]

4759 is a pretty fast powder but is bulky, designed for reduced loads in larger cases so it takes up more airspace. It burns clean and gives good velocity. It is VERY accurate.
By weight, you use less then 4198. 4198 is slower, don't mix them up.
Go by the books or any other real info you can find.
With my revolver, nothing has proven better then 4759. I tried 4198 and it shot well with jacketed but gave me wild pressure excursions with cast, jumping from 1600 fps to 1800 fps and sticking some cases.
It works well in 45-70 rifles.
You can get in trouble reducing each powder below minimums. I would not take 4198 down to 4759 loads. I would not reduce 4759 loads either.

[subsonic]

I think I finally understand what Rabbit wants.

Jim,

Did you have a load with each powder, one with 4198 and one with 4759 but both with the same boolit? If so, what was the best charge weight for accuracy with each powder?

If that's not the correct question, disregard it.

[Whiterabbit]

charge weights are OK information (relational is better), but experiences with both (particularly with 4759 in relation to 4198 is really what I'm looking for. How it loaded (for you), how it shot (for you), if you have speed data (speed less important than the comparison to 4198, slower, faster, etc), that kind of information.

Just an open forum about your specific experiences with the powder.

[44man]

I rarely use a chrono but out of my 10" barrel, 45-70 revolver, 31 gr of 4759 with a 317 gr boolit gives me 1632 fps. I use Dacron filler.
It is deadly accurate, doing 3/4" at 100 yards, sometimes less. I have no trouble hitting any target I can see which is about 1-1/4" with something behind it like a paper plate.
I have no chrono readings for the rest of my boolits. I HATE setting that thing up!