Looking for a "Sweet" shooting 230-240 gr LSWC

[FireFly]

Hi,

These will be my first and only cast bullet moulds, if everything goes right! I will buy one of the H & G #68 (or #68S) moulds for a "real nice, all around LSWC, do everything bullet".

I just want to learn one pistol well; the 1911 45 acp. I have a Kimber Carry Pro HD SS 4" and a Les Baer P II 5". At this time I only shoot 230 FMJ rds. I do not reload yet, will be soon.


After the H & G #68, I would like to get a heavier 230-238-240 gr bullet. I like SWC Keith-type bullets. The #452423 Keith 238 gr, the BD45acp, RCBS 45-30 CM, H & G #502 240 gr. What ever you expert's recommend, remember it's going into a 1911 45 acp (new 1911's, not old one's).

I may never go wild pig hunting. Hope to someday have a great time shooting bowling pins. When I go hiking I would load a 255 gr Buffalo Boar type round with the heavier bullet; I have 460 Rowland brass for the pump-up rds. So this would be the upper end of pushing the 230-238-240 gr rd. Would like to be able to reduce the powder and still have a "real nice shooting bullet.

Looking forward to your suggestions!

[blackthorn]

Can you just eat ONE Lay's potato chip?? Just two moulds?----yeah right!

[geargnasher]

My .45s dote on the MP copy of the H&G #68 for 200-ish target boolits, and the Accurate Molds #45-230L for 230-grain weight. Accurate also has a true RFN in 230 grain that is reported to be excellent also.

I have over a dozen 200-230 grain .45 moulds, and the first two I mentioned are the last ones I purchased and only ones I actually use, so that should save you some years of finding out what doesn't work so well and and a lot of money as well.

Gear

[crabo]

Hi,

These will be my first and only cast bullet moulds, if everything goes right!

I'm having a problem getting past this first line. Anyone else?

[btroj]

I am more like Gear, I have many moulds but I use only a few. I shoot the Mihec 200 swc exclusively in my 1911.

I own a half dozen moulds for 45-70, I shoot only one bullet.

It is about having a mould that casts well in a bullet design that shoots well.

I prefer one good mould to use lots over a massive collection of moulds I rarely use. I am a mould user, not a collector. I just can't see spending the money for a mould I may never use much.

[Grandpas50AE]

FireFly, I also have a Kimber Pro II HD, as well as a few full-size and an Ultra Carry II. All of them just gobble up that 200gr. H&G 68 clone my MP molds. It is a scary accurate boolilt in all of them, and no feeding issues in any of them loaded at 1.242 OAL. It is what I shoot the most of. I also have a RN HP Mihec mold for non-paper-target work, and will begin deer hunting with it later this year. Long ago I had one of the true RN molds by Lyman that cast 228 gr. RN that shot well, but the 200gr. are shooting so well, and are so comfortable on recoil, it is all I shoot in my 1911's any more. You can try the H&G 68 SWC first, then if you really want to expand usage you can get the other mold in either weight. Honestly, I would feel comfortable (and sometimes do) carrying the SWC 200gr. for self-defense, except of course in bear country where the .45ACP is too anemic as a defense round for them kind of critters. BTW, I pushing the 200gr. SWC at 950 from the 5" and 920 from the 4" using one load recipe, and still getting 870 from the 3" with that same load. They all three shoot to the same place at 25 yds.
Like Gear and btroj I am not a mold collector - my molds have to earn their place or they get traded off. Enjoy casting your own, it is a second hobby unto itself as you will discover.

[FireFly]

Many Thanks Guys, Real nice Avatar!

Is there a heavier cast bullet for "non-paper target" work/play that will feed through the 4"-5" 1911 45 acp Kimber/ Les Baer pistols?

Any thoughts regarding the BD45ACP or H & G #502 @ 240 gr. I could hollow-point them after the pour and have quite a range of cast bullets from two Ballisti-Cast moulds ( a four for the H & G $68 200 gr LSWC and a two for the other bullet)

[HeavyMetal]

FireFly:
Having messed with the 45 ACP round since I was 17 I can tell you that a better boolit for the 45 auto than the 200 LSW doesn't exist.

You can "speed" it up for SD, slow it down for target work or plinking and almost always have it shoot to POA!

Once set up it will always feed and, if the gun is kept reasonably clean, never jam.

Issues with heavier boolits, particularly the ones designed for revolvers, are they simply take up to much space in the case AND OR wind up reqiuring way to long a seating depth to kep reasonable pressures.

Add ons like the 460 Rowland are cool but really work a frame hard if you shoot a lot of them.

I'll give you the same advice my Granddad gave me when I started "hotrodding" loads:

" if you need a 44 magnum buy a 44 magnum! Don't damage your gun trying to get it to do something it wasn't ment to!"

Good advice!

[Jack Stanley]

Back when I could only have one forty-five mold I bought a four cavity from H&G in the 292 style . It's a truncated style that weighs in a two hundred thirty grains and it does well for hunting . I have loaded it down for plinking but later my second mold was an H&G 130 .

I may be the only person on this forum that has never fired a H&G 68 but I know people that have nothing but praise for the design . I have a couple more molds for the caliber now that do what's needed . If I had to start overI could use the ones you are looking at and be pretty comfortable ..... for a while .8-)

Jack

[gwpercle]

I'm having a problem getting past this first line. Anyone else?

Since when does everything GO RIGHT. Not for me. I'm the guy whose best laid plans seem to go to hell in a handbasket right from the start !

[MBTcustom]

These will be my first and only cast bullet moulds
Poor unsuspecting soul.

I will back up the H&G 68. I used to have all kinds of problems with it, but I was recently set strait on how to load it and it seems to be the best thing no matter what I am doing.
For one, it saves on lead consumption slightly, secondly, It may just be my emagination but I swear it seems like my pistols cycle faster with the lighter boolit.
Another nicety is that it has better energy transfer than a RN 230 grain. Ie, it acts like a hollowpoint in test media and wont over penetrate like the RN is want to do.
I used to be a die-hard RN or HP 230 grain fan but I can feel the castboolits.com light-bulb starting to come on.
This site is so effective at destroying pre-conceived false idea's and re-enforcing good information until it sticks.

[FireFly]

This site is so effective at destroying pre-conceived false idea's and re-enforcing good information until it sticks.

Poor unsuspecting soul.

Don't damage your gun trying to get it to do something it wasn't ment to!"


Is there a heavier cast bullet for "non-paper target" work/play that will feed through the 4"-5" 1911 45 acp Kimber/ Les Baer pistols?

Is there a heavier cast bullet for "non-paper target" work/play that will feed through the 4"-5" 1911 45 acp Kimber/ Les Baer pistols?

I've come to the right forum!!! I have wised-up some; no plans to fire off full blown 460 Roland/45 Super type loads.

A pistolsmith suggested I buy a 5" Kimber for my very first 1911 45 acp and first firearm in some forty years. What did I do; I ran out and bought a 4" Kimber Carry Pro II HD!! Well then I came across a 1911 45 acp Kimber Super Match (used, someone ((wife?)) decided they did not need it any more)). "Poor unsuspecting soul." Hope I'm not the only poor shoot with a few 1911's.

I was a thinking the 1911 45 acp might (like) bullet weights from say 185 gr up to 255 gr (for some people that knew what they are doing). I was thinking my 1911 45 acp might like (and not be damaged by) H & G #68 (#68S) LSWC up to/maybe a 240 gr H & G Keith-type (?) round.

I "will" listen to advice from the posters on this forum. I do respect the opinions posted here (the lively ones too). Instead of the H & G #502 240 gr Keith-type should I try for the #452423 238 gr Kieth-type cast bullet?

[Grandpas50AE]

I don't think anyone is saying that the heavier (230 -240gr.) SWC won't work, it probably will work just fine. It may not quite give the performance objectives is what some of us are trying to point out. Everyone has their own expectations of what they are wanting from a load recipe, and that ability to try different things is part of what makes this hobby/sport as enjoyable as it is. Most of the posters here have given you what works well for them, and that means it meets their requirements, which may be different than yours. Only you can decide which starting point on the path to discovery of what works for you, and no matter where you start it is likely you will try a few different things along the way. Take the experience and opinions here as a starting point and you may save some headaches along the way, but much of the observations and recommendations made by the folks who have replied have been to give good counsel and help you make an easier start; the rest is ultimately up to you. Get casting, and enjoy the journey.

[FireFly]

Thanks, good advice, and I consider #13 to be a lucky number. Thanks

[MBTcustom]

Grandpas50AE put it succinctly, good post.
I have a few more tips if you will indulge me for a second?
1. Try some Wilson shock-bufers in your pistol if they will work. Especialy with heavier boolits, they reduce the vicious metal to metal contact of the slide to the frame every time you fire. This is good for the pistol, but it will also reduce fatigue on the part of the shooter as well.
2. 1911 is fun to shoot. I would plan on shooting it a lot. When you buy your molds, I would get a H&G #68 clone in at least a four cavity mold. I am having to drop them two at a time, and I wish I had a Lee 6 cavity in a #68 that drops almost a full clip's worth of lead every time I open it. (I have the RNTL 230 grain Lee 6 cavity and I wish all my favorite boolits were that easy to make).
3. Learn how to make 45/45/10 lube. It works with a TL boolit as well as a GG design and its so easy!!! You wont regret it.
4. Don't seat and crimp in the same step. You will get lead rings on the rim of your cases. Seat in one operation, crimp in another, your cartridges will look great.
5. This probably should have been #1 but: slug your barrels so you know what size to make the boolits! You see there? I just told you how to keep from leading your barrel before you even asked Ha ha! This has got to be the flagship tip from castboolits.com so do it and run your boolits .001-.0015 bigger than your measured groove diameter.

Now go stab some boolits in those brass, slam in a clip and run that slide-iron like a sewing machine!

[beagle]

You might see if some member will donate a few RCBS 45-230-CM bullets. This is a RFN but does well in a .45 ACP.

I've gotten the 452423 to feed but it kinda "double clutches" on feeding but otherwise it's a real "hoss" of a .45 bullet./beagle

[FireFly]

Thanks beagle,

I'm starting to realize that probably is the way to approach this and improve my understanding.

Think I will take my 1911 45s to a pistolsmith and have the bores sized and note the OAL too.

Good advice beagle. Will ask some shooters if they can send a few RCBS 45-230, BD45ACP, Lyman-Thompson #452490, and H&G #502 240 gr. See if the "smith" can give me some insight.

Many Thanks everyone.

[Catshooter]

FireFly,

Thought I'd bring our converstation to the thread. Welcome to the board.

You will find my results a bit in the minority here, and in most other places.

I have tried the 68 and a fine boolit it is. However, I like a larger meplat (the flat on the end of the nose) than the 68 has. Also, the 68's meplat is rounded on the edges and I don't like that either. I also like more weight.

I have settled on the current production Lyman 452424 for all of my 45s save one pistol and it's going away. I also use it in my Winchester 94 in 45 Colt, and all my 45 Colt sixguns except one. As cast, mine run about 255 grains and 4525 to .453. I cast/size for at least .0015 over bore size and .002+ is better. I honed out a 452 sizing die to .4528 and it works well. My Smith & Wesson Shorty 45s would lead slightly with it .001 over bore, but the leading disapeared completely at .002 over bore size. The Winchester's bore is .451 just barely and it eat's 'em up.

As stated, the 452424 does take up much more boiler room. They have to be seated deeply, deeper than most would think that haven't done it. Here's a pic:

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/Catshooter45/th_IMG_6197.jpg (http://s379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/Catshooter45/?action=view&current=IMG_6197.jpg)

The reason they almost always have to be seated so deeply is most all 45s have zero throat. That is a space machined just ahead of the end of the brass that is bigger than the boolit. If I seat much longer than is shown in the pic then the front driving band will start being engraved by the rifling, it's that close. When that happens very much the boolit will keep the slide from going fully into battery. The cartridge won't want to come out either. This is the boolit I use:

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/Catshooter45/th_Lymanmould001.jpg (http://s379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/Catshooter45/?action=view&current=Lymanmould001.jpg)

My go-to load is that boolit over 4.7 grains of Universal Clays. Just under 800 fps in short ( 3.75") to just over 850 in fivers. I imagine that most 45 autos are designed for the 230 grainer as a max. Of course they're also designed for jacketed bullets too. So the 452424 is a bit harder to get moving (weighs a bit more) but it's quite a bit easier for the powder to push it down the barrel as it's sooooo much softer than any jacketed round.

I've pushed the 452424 harder, but don't see the need really and don't do it any longer. It's not like another 100 to 150 fps is going to make it shoot flat. Penetration is helped considerably by the weight. I'll let the weight, the size and the sharp shoulders do the work. And there's little doubt that the pistol won't like it much in the long run.

I've never liked hollow points much, whether bullets or boolits. I just have no need for them.

I will caution you against using any kind of shock buff in any pistol that you might use for defense. The buff can come apart and when they do they tie up a pistol nicely. The metal to metal contact that they eliminate was designed to happen. The buff also shortens the slide stroke which can affect reliablity.

What's your location? If you like I can measure the boolits you've driven through your bores.

Do be careful of listening to others that haven't been learning what is given on this board. This board has advanced the science of casting futher than what has been taught by others combined in the last 100 or so years. Or so. :)

Good luck and keep us posted.


Cat

[MtGun44]

H&G 68 is a great choice. If you want to try the 452423 you will probably have good results
too, but understand that this boolit is NOT designed for semiautos, so you have a risk of
feeding and depth of seating issues. Many have had success with 452423 in 1911s, including
myself (just as an experiment) I use the H&G 68 for 98% of my .45 ACP ammo.

Bill

[Catshooter]

After our PM conversation I forgot to address your original post! :)

If I wanted to, I can use my two cavity 452424 as my only mould. I can use it in: an American Derringer 45 ACP/AR for pocket duty, a Smith Shorty 45 for carry and my Winchester in 45 Colt for rifle duties.

I too have noticed that I tend to use just a handful of moulds whereas I have quite a few.


Cat

[MikeS]

I wanted to get a boolit with a large meplat, and looked at the BD45, but my pistol doesn't like boolits without a small step from the driving bands to the nose, so I bought the 45-250A mould from Accurate Molds. In my alloy it casts around 244gr, and feeds great in both my Taurus PT1911 as well as a Jericho 941 (Baby Eagle). I also have the MP #68 and it's a great boolit for target shooting, but for self defense I like a larger meplat, and the 45-250A gives me that with a bit of extra weight.

[FireFly]

Many Thanks Guys,

Seems like everyone is perty much saying I need to find out which cast bullets my 1911 will function with. Kinda like the 1911 picks the boolit not my mind. Is this correct???

[Grandpas50AE]

I think the many replies show a number of different boolit designs will function well in most 1911's, but your 1911 will tell you about which load parameters it likes. Your 1911 will tell you which seating depth, powder charge, and so forth that it will function with. In mid-range loadings for .45ACP, the only thing I've had to do was get the seating depth right to get the rounds to function 100% in all three sizes - 3", 4", and full-size 5" pistols. I know a number of folks here can load the 200gr. SWC's to 1.250" OAL and function 100%, but mine won't unless I load them to 1.240", just my guns telling me what they like. The 228gr. RN, in my guns, like 1.265" - different nose profile, different OAL to function, but all three of mine feed and function perfectly with all the nose profiles I've shot so far.
For the most part, it is up to you what performance envelope you want to achieve, then pick the boolit style to fit your needs and expectations, and go for it.

[FireFly]

Grandpas50AE, what questions should I ask the pistolsmith (this guy "knows" 1911's)? I have a Kimber Pro Carry II HD SS 4" (like it, would be my hiking/non-target pistol), Kimber Super Match 1911 45 acp (re-worked by the above pistolsmith), and Ls P II 45 acp.

I'm leaning toward the BD45ACP (230 gr) and the H&G #502 240 gr. Should I have some of the pistols opened up for a greater OAL, what other fine-tuning should I consider. I can not tolerate a pistol that jams, been there (with 230 gr factory FMJ).



The LB P II 45 acp will be a games, major power factor, action-type, bowling pin pistol.

The Carry Pro II could get a little more abuse (I may not want to increase the spring weight though).

[Grandpas50AE]

FireFly,
I've never had to have any smithing work done on my 1911's and haven't discovered a need to as yet. Your Kimber Pro Carry II HD is exactly like the one I gave to my oldest brother for Christmas a few years ago, and the HD means the frame is steel instead of aluminum alloy, so it will hold up well to a regular diet of the higher end of the .45ACP load map wothout getting beat up.
As to boolits, I've never had any jam issues that proper loading techniques wouldn't take care of, so I doubt it is going to matter much which one you get, as long as you adjust your loading technique and recipe to accomodate. If you go to a heavier boolit like the 240gr. and load it towards the top end of its recipe range, you may have to put in a little stronger recoil spring, but your pistolsmith would probably be a better person to ask if he is a good 1911 smith.
I will add this about "opening up" the chamber for length to seat boolit out farther - an absolute limit you will run into is the magazine will limit the length of your cartridge and it would be a shame to open up the chamber or throat to a dimension that you can not load to due to the loaded cartridge will no longer fit into the magazine.

Perhaps if you show a diagram of the two to your smith, showing the dimensions it would cast at, he can make a recommendation based on throat, magazine limit, and case capacity. Since I'm not a pistolsmith, that is what I'd do if I were in doubt.

[FireFly]

The re-worked Kimber Super Match is now running a 18.5 lb. recoil spring. Not sure I would like a 22-24 lb. spring. Realize I can save lead and powder (and not abuse expensive pistols) with the H&G #68 200 gr LSWC. The 240 gr (Keith-type if it will feed/ BD45ACP with correct OAL) would cover the range of light to heavy (not going to batter these pistols). The maximum loads would not be shot often and will probably need the 22 lb. recoil spring.

Thanks for your advice. I have been reading a lot of the posts on this site. Great information.

[MBTcustom]

If I were going to have a real 1911 smith work on a pistol for me, I would take him 100 rounds of every type of reload that I plan on shooting and ask him to "make it so".
I have done quite a bit of smithing on 1911's and most of the time, its just cosmetic work. The only things that I have had to do to improve function with any 1911 is to polish the feed ramp with a dremel tool and diamond lapping compound, polish the face of the slide where it contacts and strips the cartridge, and change the ejector or put new springs in it.
Actually most malfunctioning 1911's suddenly work perfectly when good quality magazines are used.
Most folks never shoot a new 1911 enough to even break it in. Sometimes, after about 400 rounds, even a jamomatic will start running like a sewing machine. You just have to shoot it. I had a new 1911 once that FTF or FTE at least twice with every magazine. Brand new gun, Novack magazine, proven reloads. I called up the manufacturer and asked the gunsmith what gives? He told me I could send the gun back in, but please bear with him and fire another 400 rounds through it. He said it would most likely clear up. That gun is now my carry weapon. If I stuffed the magazine with rocks, I think it would try to shoot 'em.
Another thing I would like to suggest is that you plan on changing the springs in your guns and magazines once every two years at least. Some manufacturers will actually send you these pieces upon request.
I hope this helps.

[Grandpas50AE]

FireFly,
I think your 18.5lb recoil spring is sufficient if you're not running upper end of the load map.

goodsteel,
Spot on about the recoil spring and magazine springs, especially magazine springs. This is probably the most overlooked and mis-understood symptom of a 1911 that has been functioning well for a while and suddenly begins to get occasional FTF or FTRB. They do hae to be changed out at the appropriate interval to maintain consistent fucntion. Glad you pointed that out.

[rintinglen]

+1 on the quality magazine advice. Cheap mags cost twice--once when you buy them and again when you replace them.

To save rounds and avoid disappointment in a new semi auto, I always make it my practice to cycle the action 200-300 times before going to the range. It is amazing how often simply shucking the slide can clear up or prevent malfunctions.

[FireFly]

Thanks for the education guys, I'm paying attention and learning. New magazines was one of the first things I did. Now have Tripp, Checkmate, Wilson-Combat, and Les Baer (may trade the Les Baer's off or re-spring).

Anyone have experience with the BD45ACP 230 gr rnfp and H&G 3502/B-C #1102 240 gr Keith-type bullets in the 1911 45 acp semi-auto pistol???

Many Thanks to those sending me samples!

[MBTcustom]

Just thought I would throw it out there that Novak makes some really good magazines also. I love mine.

[geargnasher]

Wow, I leave for four days and this thread really takes off!

Since the subject has sort of expanded, I'm going to try to put this all in perspective.

A 1911 is a very versatile platform and can be TUNED to shoot just about anything. I've done a lot of work with the heavies (255 and 250 in several designs) but it's more trouble than it's worth to me. I found I needed a BB boolit like the Lyman 452664 to prevent bulging the wall of the cases unless I used Winchester brass which doesn't get thick so fast toward the case head. I needed to change recoil spring rate, and I'm not sure I ever did work up a load to it's potential for fear of overpressuring. The only place I got good, trustworthy data was via PM from a few members here who had done a LOT of work with heavies.

My original point was that most any 1911 will shoot the H&G 68 bone stock, and will be accurate and effective. Same with the AM 230L which is one of the few 230-grain RN designs that will function properly with the over-enthusiastic Kimber slide lock levers. Data is readily available and no modifications are needed. IE, you can do just about anything the platform is capable of doing with either of these designs without modification to the gun.

The first step in the sequence of building ammunition for a gun is to determine the PURPOSE. Very few loads are "one size fits all". Once you determine what you want to do, select a boolit mould that does that and study load data with your primary goal in mind (target accuracy, knockdown velocity/weight, best accuracy with softer alloy for hunting, etc.) and go from there. Since you might want a target load and a business load for the 1911, you might need two different designs, or not, depending on how you load them and which one you select. Ultimately it is up to you to decice what's best for your purposes.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Just for the record, 200gr SWC with a full house load of 700X = big smiles. It is smokey but it launches those puppies with authority and you get a very nice "push". FYI

[geargnasher]

Just for the record, 200gr SWC with a full house load of 700X = big smiles. It is smokey but it launches those puppies with authority and you get a very nice "push". FYI

And for the record I sure wouldn't want to be in front of it, either!

Clays, Titegroup, and 231/hp-38 work purty good too.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Clays, Bulleye, and Unique have been my go-to for years, but none of them give that satisfying push that 700X does. Just sayin'.

[white eagle]

I wanted to get a boolit with a large meplat, and looked at the BD45, but my pistol doesn't like boolits without a small step from the driving bands to the nose, so I bought the 45-250A mould from Accurate Molds. In my alloy it casts around 244gr, and feeds great in both my Taurus PT1911 as well as a Jericho 941 (Baby Eagle). I also have the MP #68 and it's a great boolit for target shooting, but for self defense I like a larger meplat, and the 45-250A gives me that with a bit of extra weight.

I had that very mold in my first run with the acp :p
I sold that and some of my better 45 cal molds(big mistake) :lovebooli
let that be a lesson to the one mold feller .........hang on to it :groner: