Cast Bullet .30-06 load with 4831.....

[Lawyerman]

I'm looking for a good cast bullet load for a bullet in the 200 grain range for H4831. Why? Because I have over 40 pounds of it and I want to shoot it up! Thoughts?

[nanuk]

up here, that is well over $1000.00 worth of powder!

[Larry Gibson]

I'm looking for a good cast bullet load for a bullet in the 200 grain range for H4831. Why? Because I have over 40 pounds of it and I want to shoot it up! Thoughts?

Start at 36 gr and work up in 1 gr increments with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. Work up untill accuracy goes south, probably around 1950 - 2150 fps, then tweak the best load 1/2 gr in either direction.

Larry Gibson

[Nobade]

You can't overload a 30-06 with that powder, but you can overspeed a cast bullet if you have a 1:10 twist barrel. I would start at about 48gr, or 1900 fps, and work up until accuracy goes away. A full case is good for about 2300 fps.

[geargnasher]

The only thing I can add to the above is buy an M1 Garand or two if you don't already have one, that will help you burn some powder! You might want to invest in a check maker as well.

Gear

[elk hunter]

Has anyone thought about the controversial "SEE" effect that has been reported with severely reduced loads of 4831?

I've never had any problems with 4831, but I use only full or nearly full power loads when loading it.

Just a thought.

[hydraulic]

Bob S. load: 41 grs 4831/ 200 gr bullet.

[Bob S]

Bob S load: :)

M1: 42 grains WW II surplus 4831, 311284 (217 grains)

Bolt gun: 40 grains WW II surplus 4831, 311284

Never tried the new production cannister grade 4831; it didn't exist then.

[Bert2368]

This is with 42 gr new cannister 4831, RCBS 308-200 Sil cast from water cooled WW + 2% Tin sized .310 lubed with carnauba red, and a small bit of Dacron filler over the powder (didn't weigh, about 3/4"x 3/4"x1/2" thick). 50 yards with the military irons. I believe the 2 fliers were my fault-
http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-60.jpg

[zomby woof]

I use 41.5 IMR 4831 with 311299, this is new powder. Excellent results

[Lawyerman]

My powder is old surplus. In looking at several manuals last night it looked like about 48 grains would get me 2200 FPS.....problem is I'm trying to slow it down so as not to have problems with my bullets. That figure was listed several places as a minimum load. There was a "caution" about reducing loads any further.......

I would be very concerned about shooting 4831 in any of my Garands as the burn rate is way off for the action. I notice that the group shown above seemed to be fired by a Garand though.....I really don't want to bend an op rod....

One of the bullets I have and was thinking of using is the 311284.....Looks like Bob is several steps ahead of me....I knew there was a reason I came here!

[Larry Gibson]

With the 311284 start at the 36 gr I suggested and use the dacron filler. In the M1 you are looking for 100% reliable functioning. With these low end 4831 (especially the older surplus 4831) the gas port pressure will not be high enough to harm the M1. In fact it probably will be too low and you will need to up the charge to get enough psi at the gas port just to function the M1. Granted 4831 is not a good powder to use with full bore jacketed bullet loads in the M1 but you're not going there are you?

The best accuracy with 4831 and the 311284 in your M1 will be just at the minimum load that gives 100% functional reliability. You are not breaking new ground here.....many, many of us have worked this out in a lot of M1s over the last 50+ years or so.

Larry Gibson

[Bert2368]

Don't worry about the M1's op rod with a 200 gr cast bullet and 42 gr of 4831. Many, many thousands of rounds have gone down range with this combo- Heavy JACKETED bullets with a case full of slow powder would be a problem. The pressure is so low with the cast, the powder doesn't even burn completely.

[Lawyerman]

With the 311284 start at the 36 gr I suggested and use the dacron filler. In the M1 you are looking for 100% reliable functioning. With these low end 4831 (especially the older surplus 4831) the gas port pressure will not be high enough to harm the M1. In fact it probably will be too low and you will need to up the charge to get enough psi at the gas port just to function the M1. Granted 4831 is not a good powder to use with full bore jacketed bullet loads in the M1 but you're not going there are you?

The best accuracy with 4831 and the 311284 in your M1 will be just at the minimum load that gives 100% functional reliability. You are not breaking new ground here.....many, many of us have worked this out in a lot of M1s over the last 50+ years or so.

Larry Gibson

Thanks! These loads will be used in my o3's, 1917's and Garands! It's time to really start using this ancient powder up......Would it be ok to use Grex vs. Dacron as a buffer? I have seen it used in other cast loads and it's big virtue is that it meters very easily and can be made 100% uniform from case to case etc....

[Lawyerman]

Where is the best place typically to find Dacron? Walmart sewing section? Craft/Hobby Stores?

[geargnasher]

Grex and Dacron are not directly interchangeable. Follow Larry's recommenations, plus Dacron's WAY cheaper.

Do you have a genuine, guillotine-type paper cutter? Even sharp scissors will work. If you don't have any crafty types or quilters in your family that already have trash bags full of free-to-you scraps, go to any store that sells fabric and buy a few yards of quilter's batting, you can get it in rolled sheets of different thicknesses for insulating quilts. Get the 3/8" or 1/2" stuff and cut it into squares with your paper cutter or scissors. Detrmine the size that will weigh enough to lightly fill the space between powder and boolit base at the fiberfill's natural compression density, plus about 10%. DO NOT pack it in there tight. Dacron is very springy and will hold the powder in place if just slightly compressed beyond its natural "loft". While you're at the craft store, pick up a seam ripper also, it's a little tool that resembles a pocket screwdriver but has an offset forked tine on the end, and the vee between the tines is sharpened for cutting individual stitches out of a seam without damaging the cloth fibers. This tool will fit in .30 caliber case necks and is perfect for "dragging" a tuft of Dacron down through the neck and "fluffing" it up down inside the case below the neck. You'll get the hang of poking it in there and lofting it back up while leaving a little bit sticking up in the case neck to seat the boolit against.

I think Larry and others explained pretty well why not to fear my comment about shooting 4831 loads in the Garand, and Dacron acts to reduce "effective" case capacity without raising pressure significantly like other true fillers do. I like to think of Dacron as a "powder locator" rather than a filler, it keeps the powder situated against the coals without adding much weight to the payload or creating any kind of resistive plug at the case shoulder.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

I like Grex/PSB as a filler, but I WOULD NOT use it with 4831 or any large stick powder. To much chance for the filler to mix with the powder.

With 4831 expect some unburned powder in the barrel. Don't worry about it, just keep on shooting.

[Lawyerman]

Had already decided on Dacron after looking around a little......I can probably get all I need for free as my MIL is an avid quilter and the ladies at our Church make dozens of quilts every year as a mission project. Thanks for the tip on the seam ripper.....

Now I need to cast up a bunch of bullets.....

[Char-Gar]

Has anyone thought about the controversial "SEE" effect that has been reported with severely reduced loads of 4831?

I've never had any problems with 4831, but I use only full or nearly full power loads when loading it.

Just a thought.

About 1960 I was a lad with a 300 Weatherby. I decided to load it down to 30-06 levels for fun shooting and used a 30-06 charge of 4350 in the big Weatherby case. The result was 100% hangfires. I reported this to my mentor who informed me this was a bad idea, but to avoid what we now call "SEE", I needed to use a faster powder like 4895 if I wanted to do that.

It is a lesson I never forgot!

[Larry Gibson]

SEE is not a problem with 4831 if the filler is used (when loading density is less than 85% with cast bullets). The filler holds the powder to the rear, negates the primer flash by/through and actually reduces the case capacity which all increase the rise to pressure. That's why the filler works so well where as a wad has problems.

However, in a large case like the 300 WB that Char-Char discusses, using a reduced load of 4831, especially with jacketed bullets, and no filler is asking for an SEE. Good lesson he learned without having an actual SEE.

Larry Gibson

[15meter]

Got the steam shovel fired up for this one:



Start at 36 gr and work up in 1 gr increments with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. Work up untill accuracy goes south, probably around 1950 - 2150 fps, then tweak the best load 1/2 gr in either direction.

Larry Gibson

Still a recommended load?

I've got several pounds of 4831 that needs to be used in "something", don't load for the monster boomers anymore.

The wife's a hardcore quilter--she claims there are over 200 quilts in the house and she's making more, I suspect I could steal a little batting and she'll never miss it.

Any 4831 loads for 150 grain cast boolits? I've got a doozy of a 4 cavity 150 grain mold.

[Larry Gibson]

Still a good load for 4831 use. You won't know how "good" until you try it in your rifle.

I've not had any "good" results with lighter weight bullets than 200 gr as by the time you get the 4831 igniting and burning efficiently the velocity is too high [over the RPM Threshold] for any decent accuracy beyond 50 yards.

[charlie b]

My wife is a quilter as well. I sew utility bags as well as do some upholstery and repair sewing machines for the quilt group. Keep in mind most batting for quilts is cotton and is fairly compressed. It can still be used if it is 'fluffed' up. It is easier to start with cotton balls if you want to use cotton. Dacron is the synthetic stuff and is normally used for pillows and such. It is also very cheap and does not need to be 'fluffed' before loading a case.

[Three44s]

Unless the price on dacron fill material has gone through the roof you can afford to not raid your significant others stash for it.

It is cheap and goes a long ways!

Three44s

[Charlie Horse]

Ask you gun.

[Patrick L]

I too followed the Bob S course when I decided to shoot cast in my M1s. As I recall I settled on an even 40 grains with a SAECO 196 gr boolit. IIRC I decided IMR shot just a bit cleaner than Hogdon.

[Patrick L]

As for filler, I never used it. Both my 4831 Bob S loads and my more usual Ed Harris 16 gr 2400 loads never indicated a need for any, and that includes rapid fire "from the magazine" shooting. Opinions are all over the place as to the wisdom/safety of using fillers. I will not argue with anyone who uses them, but I just never saw the need personally. Again, that is just MY experience.

Oh, that 16 gr 2400 load is obviously not a Garand load, that's for the '03!

[brucev]

controversial "SEE" effect Beg your pardon. What is this? Sincerely. bruce.

[Rockindaddy]

Kapok is a great filler. It is found in old life jackets. Been using for years with reduced powder charges for keeping the charge against the primer.

[15meter]

controversial "SEE" effect Beg your pardon. What is this? Sincerely. bruce.


My understanding of it is, after initial primer strike and ignition there is a "secondary" ignition that has the potential to "ring" chambers and do much nasty damage. Usually attributed to very low loading density or the use of a compacted filler. Precision Shooting had a number of articles on it probably 20 years back.

There are others who can expound on it much more eloquently then I can(and probably correct me where I've mis-spoken).

I miss the old Precision Shooting magazine. Good stuff there.

[405grain]

"controversial "SEE" effect Beg your pardon. What is this? Sincerely. bruce."

It is controversial, because it as yet hasn't been able to be replicated in the laboratory. SEE stands for Secondary Explosive Effect. The general view about this is that if you drastically reduce a load of slow burning powder so that there's a considerable air space inside the cartridge case, the powder charge can initiate a detonation rather than a normal combustion. There are lots of theory's about how and why this can occur. (internal shock waves, etc.) Having studied how primers used in liquid propellant artillery cause a cavity to form in the propellant, and how these cavities effect both range and velocity, I can tell you that sometimes some pretty weird things can happen in internal ballistics. However, the SEE effect has not been able to be reproduced in the laboratory, so some folks have expressed that this effect doesn't actually exist. I'm not going to take sides in that argument: as far as I am concerned, using reduced charges of slow or magnum powder in a large cartridge cases is just bad practice for other reasons: poor load density and inadequate pressure build up to facilitate good combustion usually leads to poor accuracy and extreme velocity spreads. One of the advantages of reloading ammo is that you can make cartridges that are better, more accurate, and better suited for your firearm. Why would someone choose components that make ammo that's worse?

[Larry Gibson]

"It is controversial, because it as yet hasn't been able to be replicated in the laboratory."

It was replicated by ballisticians in a "lab" [actually it is incorrect to think ammunition loads are developed in a "laboratory"] many years back. I have, several times posted an article from Handloader magazine published years ago detailing the cause, effect and how to replicate it. I have, on several occasions.

An S.E.E. event does not....let me say that again......does not initiate a detonation. What is created is the bullet essentially becomes a bore obstruction stuck in the leade of the chamber throat caused by the force of the primer explosion and poor ignition of the powder. The powder continues to smolder, then burns normally but the bullet is stuck and before it can get moving again the pressure rises to catastrophic levels. As stated, it can easily be replicated by any reloader, either intentionally or not. A "laboratory" is not needed.

[charlie b]

I'm another that's had an excursion, both unintentional and intentional.

[405grain]

Thanks Larry. That makes perfect sense. SEE is just one of those few topics that I don't spend time arguing about because some people have strong opinions about it. 30 years ago I used to work at the Lawrence Livermore National lab. Certain types of artillery were tested there in conjunction with the Sandia National lab, and there were some problems. The effects of those problems could not be replicated in the lab. Can't discuss the topic further.

I know: comparing rifles to cannons is like comparing apples to oranges, but I'm glad that you were able to figure out what was happening with the rifles.

[TCLouis]

Cannons are just Large bore Rifles , are they not?