duplex loads

[bigted]

just wondering why the practice of duplexing smokless with blackpowder is so frowned upon? anybody?

[powderburnerr]

it isnt black powder shooting.,simple as that.

[bigted]

i find that my duplex loads spray sparks like your loads do...my duplex puffs smoke like yours do...i obturate my boolits like you do...my shot smells like yours do...the case is compressed on good ol goex 2f like others that shoot goex 2f do...my paperpatched shots seem to poop shards of tiny paper out when i shoot like any other paperpatch bp loads do...here is what i DONT have to do...clean between shots...blow my putrid breath down the bore between shots...i dont have to spend 1/2 my time when shooting at cleaning my rifle so i can continue.

i also like the pure art of black powder. there is nothing like doing it like the old guys did but i dont get the typical responses that seem to come with this duplex loading procedure. i dont feel im in danger of being infused with a "other" style that will contaminate my thoughts from the pure blackpowder use...nor am i in danger of stopping use of the pure black...just curious about this seemingly curt responses from the crowd i really like to be in tune with.

[frnkeore]

I've shot cartridge duplex BP loads since '85 and still do. As bigted says, there is no need to clean or blow between shots.

Historically, duplex loads were used a soon as smokeless powder became available. The world famous Rowland 200 yard group was shot with a duplex load and Ideal had the #6 duplex powder measure for just that purpose, too.

Frank

[.22-10-45]

Last summer, I was working with an original Ballard No. 3 in .25-25 Stevens. Since this is a cast action, I have decided to only use Swiss 3FG. Most accurate straight black loads were grouping around 3/8" at 50 yds. Sights are mid-range vernier tang & windage adjustable globe with inserts.
Started to play with du-plexing. IMR 4759 didn't work at all. Tried SR PB..1gr. next to primer, 22.5gr. Swiss, drop-tubed, 1/16" dental B.W. wad over powder, 1/8" SPG grease cookie & another wax wad. Still a bit of space in that long skinny case between bullet base & used Puff-Lon filler. Original Ideal 25720 seated with Ideal No. 3 tong tool.
This cleaned up bore..even grooves were shiny...However, I still had to run 1 dry patch thru..with straight black..patch had to be wet.
Last year was not a good one for shooting..I plan on working more with this old rifle & going up another grain or two with the smokeless.
Contrary to what is written..case extraction was very easy with straight black & du-plex loads.
I do not feel in any way that I am being "un-traditional" in the use of smokeless priming charge. As frnkeore stated, Rowland practiced it, as well as Pope, Neidner, and others.
I did try a few shots using straight smokeless (TrailBoss & H4227)..funny thing, the accuracy wasn't nearly as good as the black...but even more important (and 20 years ago, I never would have thought I would admit this!)...There was something missing..where was the deep-throated BOOM!, the target obliterating smoke screen?...To be honest..it just wasn't as FUN!:p

[MT Chambers]

The only drawbacks are, the extra step/s in reloading and the fact that duplexing is not allowed in some competitions, and even if you don't compete; some like to see how they measure up.

[Lead pot]

Last summer, I was working with an original Ballard No. 3 in .25-25 Stevens. Since this is a cast action, I have decided to only use Swiss 3FG. Most accurate straight black loads were grouping around 3/8" at 50 yds. Sights are mid-range vernier tang & windage adjustable globe with inserts.
Started to play with du-plexing. IMR 4759 didn't work at all. Tried SR PB..1gr. next to primer, 22.5gr. Swiss, drop-tubed, 1/16" dental B.W. wad over powder, 1/8" SPG grease cookie & another wax wad. Still a bit of space in that long skinny case between bullet base & used Puff-Lon filler. Original Ideal 25720 seated with Ideal No. 3 tong tool.
This cleaned up bore..even grooves were shiny...However, I still had to run 1 dry patch thru..with straight black..patch had to be wet.
Last year was not a good one for shooting..I plan on working more with this old rifle & going up another grain or two with the smokeless.
Contrary to what is written..case extraction was very easy with straight black & du-plex loads.
I do not feel in any way that I am being "un-traditional" in the use of smokeless priming charge. As frnkeore stated, Rowland practiced it, as well as Pope, Neidner, and others.
I did try a few shots using straight smokeless (TrailBoss & H4227)..funny thing, the accuracy wasn't nearly as good as the black...but even more important (and 20 years ago, I never would have thought I would admit this!)...There was something missing..where was the deep-throated BOOM!, the target obliterating smoke screen?...To be honest..it just wasn't as FUN!:p

If you keep shooting a load with cards and lube wads over powder and fill the rest with that puff-lon filler in that original soft barrel dont scratch your head when you cant extract that case with out using a cleaning rod.
The problem using that filler it has a lot of air in it and when that wad stack your using acts like a hydraulic cylinder trapping the air between the wad stack your using and the bullet base it will push the barrel sidewalls out especially if the bullet is seated tight in the case.


Ted.


The thing using a duplex load is the extremES spread. This will not show up @ 100 or 200 yards but it will show a bunch of vertical at longer ranges.
Using a nitro powder under a blk powder load completely changes the characteristics of the black and smokeless powder.

[Don McDowell]

just wondering why the practice of duplexing smokless with blackpowder is so frowned upon? anybody?

Ted duplexing used to be a fairly common practice, altho reloaders then didn't have the powder choices there are today, and the ones that went about it used more common sense, relied heavily on printed material, and not hearsay on the net.
Today you see people using powders that even tho they only go to the 10% thing are already crowding the max pressures of the cartridge, never mind putting in the rest of the blackpowder..
You also see a tendancy to throw in the smokeless powder,then compress the blackpowder,,, well you also compress the smokeless , many smokeless powders don't take well to compression.
Bottom line it it can get damned dangerous, and as no one has control over how much of what type of smokeless someone throws into the bottom of a case before squishing who knows what else in under the bullet, most folks just don't want to be around it.
Today I believe we have better blackpowder than what was available when duplexing was in full voque, making the need to duplex almost moot.

[frnkeore]

Don,
Let me pose a question to you............ can you shoot under one minute of angle, five shot groups with your straight black loads? And if so, have you done that in a shoulder to shoulder matches?

Frank

[Don McDowell]

Why yes I have had some groups go under a minute with straight black. Why do you ask?
Under a minute in shoulder to shoulder matches? don't know hard to say the matches I shoot are all the lowly "gong" matches.... Again why do you ask?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Recently I was given some 577/450 from a deceased estate and I disobeyed my own rules; NEVER FIRE SOMEONE ELSES RELOADS! The box was marked "Black Powder Duplex", So I thought should be OK.

Only fired one shot and the normally placid Mk2 almost knocked me down, jammed the action and wouldn't extract,WOW. Back to the workshop and after dissassembling, a piece of dowel was needed to drive out the partially dissentegrated case. A large piece of the neck was missing, it was split in at least 4 places on the shoulder and also one place near the solid head.

I managed to unload the heavily crimped cases and found no compression, a great ball of kapok and a powder charge that was an evenly mixed combination of black powder and IMR4198 smokeless. That's right, not a small charge under the BP but actually mixed with it. The pressures must have been a lot more than 40,000psi.

The MH appears to function perfectly again with no sustainable damage, but be warned.

[MT Chambers]

I still feel more confident using 10% 4759 and 90% BP(Duplex load), then any duplex loading using smokeless powders only(something I would not try).

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Lead Pot., In your opinion, would there be any danger in using the lube/wax wads in themselves? No cards..only two 1/16" dental beeswax wads with 1/16" spg wad in between.
What would you suggest to take up extra space..about 1/4"? I tried increasing powder charge to fill to bullet base..along with grease cookie & accuracy wasn't as good as with lighter charge. I tried COW..and this was no good..stretched cases. Thanks!

[frnkeore]

Don,
The reason that I ask is to assertain the accuracy of straight BP. As I said, I've shoot duplex loads since '85 in ASSRA and other organizations in shoulder to sholder matches. I found that not only do you not have to clean or blow between shots but, that it more accurate.

Before I go any farther let me say my experiance only deals with cartridges in 32/35 Stevens, 32/40 Ballard and the 45/70, with smokeless powders in the burn range of 296/H110, 4759 and 4227 and charges of up to 15% by weight and Goex FG and FFG by volume. I use up to 15% because the ASSRA allows that much in there long range matches. I found that FG did better than FFG.

I must say that what I've done didn't come easy, I shot hundreds of bullets testing powder charges, bullet lube and wads.

These targets were shot breech seated in ASSRA matches and are club record targets. The smallest is .841 minute of angle.

My point here is not spectuation but, real results on what duplex powder charges can do.

Frank

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524f57fbd577367.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4316)

[Don McDowell]

Frank those look good. I have duplexed with 4759, it did clean up Elephant. Altho I shot some Elephant and 4759 duplex loads in the 405 the other day, and it didn't clean it up, and shot like sxxt.
I have pretty much come to look at duplexing like the "substitute" black powder. WHY? either straight smokeless or straight black always works.
Here's a group I fired at 270 yds with Goex 2f express from a 45-70
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/0908idddybit.jpg I have shot tighter with the same combination.
For clean burning black this KIK is awfully hard to beat, stuff doesn't leave much more in the barrel than straight 5744. Here's a group on steel the other day from the 44-77 and 1.5 kik at 300.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/001-2.jpg

[frnkeore]

Please come shoot with us, Don.

[catkiller45]

Recently I was given some 577/450 from a deceased estate and I disobeyed my own rules; NEVER FIRE SOMEONE ELSES RELOADS! The box was marked "Black Powder Duplex", So I thought should be OK.

Only fired one shot and the normally placid Mk2 almost knocked me down, jammed the action and wouldn't extract,WOW. Back to the workshop and after dissassembling, a piece of dowel was needed to drive out the partially dissentegrated case. A large piece of the neck was missing, it was split in at least 4 places on the shoulder and also one place near the solid head.

I managed to unload the heavily crimped cases and found no compression, a great ball of kapok and a powder charge that was an evenly mixed combination of black powder and IMR4198 smokeless. That's right, not a small charge under the BP but actually mixed with it. The pressures must have been a lot more than 40,000psi.

The MH appears to function perfectly again with no sustainable damage, but be warned.

And how did you know it was imr 4198 powder?? You must have a lab or whatever if you could tell that so sure...I think it was imr4350..lol

[Don McDowell]

Please come shoot with us, Don.
:bigsmyl2: Oregon is a long ways for me to drive, just to make sure the guy that usually shoots last place gets a bump up at a match.[smilie=l:
I do plan on being at the Quigley in June , maybe we can talk shooting over a glass of iced tea there.

[bigted]

Wallace...very glad you and your rifle are in 1 piece. i have never shot anybody elses reloads except the folks that look on reloading like myself and im in personal attendance when the rounds are loaded. i seen the results when a kid as a feller shot the last shot thru a hiwall winchester chambered to 22-250 and popped the begining of the barrel open like a dropped mellon. NO THANKS!!! thanks for sharing your experience and again..im very glad that you didnt get aflicted with a shrapnel bath and that your rifle is still cookin.

im following in the footsteps of some great shooters with my experiments with duplex loads...not loads that are just quoted on the net. i would be hesitant to go into uncharted territory just for the things that are mentioned but...the published data from known safe shooters/loaders i feel i can trust.

thanks for the replys and i look forward to reading more.

[.22-10-45]

[QUOTE=Lead pot;1624040]If you keep shooting a load with cards and lube wads over powder and fill the rest with that puff-lon filler in that original soft barrel dont scratch your head when you cant extract that case with out using a cleaning rod.
The problem using that filler it has a lot of air in it and when that wad stack your using acts like a hydraulic cylinder trapping the air between the wad stack your using and the bullet base it will push the barrel sidewalls out especially if the bullet is seated tight in the case."
Interesting THEORY...I find it questionable since the Ideal Tool Company gave just such advice for loading reduced loads in this very case...only they didn't even recommend an "air filled" filler over the wads..just plain air! And this was refering to black and smokeless loads.

[omgb]

I use RL7 under a compressed charge of GOEX 2F in my 45-90 with no problems what so ever. It shoots well and it keeps fouling at a bare minimum. I never use more than 7 grains of RL7 and case extraction, recoil and velocity spreads are all normal as in just like straight BP only without the fouling issue.

[paul s]

Used to duplex with 45-70 cause could not get the velocity with the old **** black powder, when Swiss BP came out, quit duplexing and never looked back!

[RMulhern]

I don't need duplex! 10 shots from 800 yards using KIK 2F through the 45 2 7/8 Shiloh!:kidding:[smilie=1:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7130/6880324406_0498229cbf_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6880324406/)
45800tgt (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6880324406/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[Lead pot]

Hmmmm. Thought only 1F would work for the 2-7/8 :D

Wonder if a super hot primer would work like a duplex load:target_smiley:

[montana_charlie]

Hmmmm. Thought only 1F would work for the 2-7/8 :D

That's KW ...

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Yeah Kurt thats me. Fg all the way, been shooting a 45 2-7/8ths at Raton since 1996. Have shot the rifle since 1994 at local gong matches. Tried em all with Grease groove bullets and blowing with FFG Goex, Elephant, you will foul out on the 1000 yard line when it gets over 80 and Humidity drops below 15%

Course you would not know that would you? I know you have never been there.

I see your first time at Lodi where you shot well 4th? overall? You went with KIK and Greasers? I seem to recall that? Correct me If I am wrong on that account? Also did not know you shot a 45 2-7/8ths.??

Since then your scores with KIK and Paper Patch, at Lodi, have not been too smurfy?? Perhaps I can give you some pointers, teach you how to shoot paper patch.

That other question you had, hot primers?? Fed 215 Mags leave hard fouling just ahead of the chamber with GG Bullets, Have never tried it in Paper Patch loads.





Always glad to be of help!

Walk that one around a little bit, you deserved it. Oh gosh one more thing??? Had Shiloh Cut up any more barrels lately?

The Lunger
KW

[Lead pot]

Kenny.

I dont know what the hell your beef is here.

Where have I mentioned your name ????
Most everyone uses 1F in there 2-7/8. When Rick said he used 2F with those great results I said Hmmmm ir surprised me that the 2F KIK shot so well in it. I cant get 2F KIK to shoot in my .44's worth sour grapes.

No I have not been to Raton. You seem to think that going to Raton makes you a better shooter????????? well look up all of the past scores that you and I have shot together. Yes the one Silhouette match at Shiloh I had a very bad problem seeing the critters and yes I shot poorly no doubt about it.
The first Lodi shoot I had a PP load made up that did not meet there Power factor requirements so the only other loads I had ready to use where the GG. That was the first match I shot there.
The next match I shot 4th in I used a PP bullet using the .44 as well as last fall when I shot in the rain.
Last fall I shot in rain and fog on my two relays . I cant hit what I cant see.
The
"Since then your scores with KIK and Paper Patch, at Lodi, have not been too smurfy?? Perhaps I can give you some pointers, teach you how to shoot paper patch."

I once thied to tell you the first time you shot at Raton using the PP bullets you posted that you were going to use I tried to tell you those will end up being dirt diggers and you told me you had all the advice from another sourse and dont need mine, well you had a bunch of dirt diggers. I dont give and advice to guys like you....And your aditude makes me tempted to turn away from Raton. I dont need to go to Raton for any reason Kenny.

And what Shiloh does for me is none of your business!! So Kiss off. I get tired of your BS.

Kurt

[waksupi]

Some days I just don't know whether to delete posts, or just lock the whole thread.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,

First time I shot at Raton with Paper Patch was in 2008, did not have dirt diggers, Phoenix is where I had all the issues Spring of 2008. As a mater of fact 2008 Raton, was the 5@200 record group 1.336 inches 200 yards.

Sad to see you seem to have issues of keeping things straight, Phoenix and my dirt diggers was using undersized bullets and thick paper via Oriville and Bill, and you as I recall?

Oh check the Trends in Long range shooting thread on Shiloh your second outing at Lodi you took fourth, you said you shot Greasers.

Get the stories straight. I had all ready checked the post.

here perhaps this will refresh your memory:
Kenny.

I didn't use a PP bullet at Lodi.
Two days before, actually 1 1/3 days before leaving for Lodi I pulled the .45-2.4 out of the safe because the way the .44-90 shot last fall at Lodi and I haven't had a chance to see how the new PP bullet would work at long range and at Lodi there is no practice day before or the morning of the match so I pulled out the 2.4.
I didn't have any 45 PP bullets but I had quite a few four year old Brooks Creedmoor bullets siting around so I lubed them up shot 10 at 130 yards and they cut tight so I loaded 100 with 83 grains of 1.5 KIK and took off in the morning as soon as they were loaded.
I had the .50 with me and weight them both but I used the 45.
Kurt

[TXGunNut]

Some days I just don't know whether to delete posts, or just lock the whole thread.

No idea, duplex load discussion seems to be abandoned.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Blame in on Mulhern! LOL


Duplex works, my opinion, and I tried it for one season when still legal in BPTR. Lot of pain in the butt. I used 7 grs of RL 7 and no more. with 100 grs of FFg Elephant. Fouling was better but still some issues barrel in Raton's Heat and dry clime got supper hot.

I dont think as Kurt would alude that raton makes you some kind of supper shooter, what it will do is show you that what works at home in high humidty places will fall flat on its butt once you get to 6000 plus feet of elevation and Humidity in the single Digits.

thats What I keep trying to get accross. course the Humidity and temp comments seemed to be skipped over every single time.

KW
The Lunger

[waksupi]

Kenny, I think changes in light conditions has every bit as much effect. I know sights need changed 4-6 points between morning and afternoon shooting a lot of times. Coming from a humid climate to high and dry, I'm sure has a marked effect.

[Don McDowell]

I've seen alot of folks with their duplexed re7/swiss loads doing their level best to try and drive the lead out of their bores when they fouled out in 80+ degree and 10-15% humidity.
Temperature,humidity and light can all change the points needs escpecially at distance beyond 300 yds.
I always sort of get a chuckle of the folks that go out early in the morning at Alliance when it's cool and the humidity is up get sight settings, and then by noon when it's hot and dry and the wind is swirling everywhere, are talking about how many points they changed since this moring.
I think the biggest learning curve ever to hit the bpcr world on fouling control was at Kenny's match in 07 with the temps running around 115 and the humidity at zero... Lots of folks learned new and innovative ways of trying to keep a bore open during a 10 shot string.

[frnkeore]

I've done a lot of duplex loading in the last 25 years. The calibers that I use duplex in are 45/70, 32/40 and 32/35 Stevens.

I've never used RX7 and I think it's to slow for this application but, I have not tried it to be sure of saying that.

By ASSRA rules 15% smokeless is allowed and I've used that figure in my duplexing.

In 45/70, I used 10.5 gr of 296 topped with 70 gr of FG Goex. 1470 fps with a 490 gr 20/1 bullet. This load seperated my shoulder and ended my use of ANY heavy bullet. A winning load in 200 yard ASSRA matches.

In the 32/40 and 32/35 I use 6 and 5 gr respectively.

I don't shoot at anything beyond 200 yards but, fouling occures at -0 yards for all rifles.

That said, I've never fouled a barrel with a duplex load (hot or cold) as discribed. I've tried a few lubes (Darr, Emmert, BW/Cirsco and my own) and some help fouling as well as accuracy. But, the worst of them didn't give me powder fouling that resulted in leading.

Frank

I forgot to add that all my loads are breech seat.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don makes one heck of a good point the 07 Match was murder.

Rick, I agree to some extent about light but a well lighted target in the morning versas a well lighted one in the after noon and of course I shoot scope these days. I do a marked difference in wipping though at 800 in the morning with 2 damp patches you can control the fouling with no problem, as the day progresses though 900 even I have to go to more damp patches to clear all the fouling.

Quite a few years back in April and May I used to hold a match came up with a killer GG bullet load with a Jones Creedmoor Bullet, using Elephant FFg and Dick Hansons lube. I was pretty psyched up for Raton come mid-july, the Load shot very well at 800. At 900 the temp had reached 80 and the Humidity had went from 33% to 18%. I fouled out so bad that I think I took somewere around 6 misses at 1000 yards all low in the berm infront of the Number boards.

I tried duplex the next year not much better success.

I do think though If I had a proper wipping method then for GG loads I would of done much better although the duplex load ran from the top of the 7 to the bottom the 7 ring all day long not good for butt kicker scores, before fouling out.

KW
The Lunger

[bigted]

kewl...thought we had a train wreck for a bit. im having fun with the duplex for now and this summer should show me whether i will continue with the practice but till then ill read all opinions and weigh them with my results and see where it all leads.

yep a bit hard-headed like me mom used to say but...when i [like a boxer dog] finally gets the lesson learned...then ill never forget but its the lesson i gots tha trouble with...jest gettin it thru is a job sometimes...LOL

keep em comin fellers and i enjoy every post....some a bit more then others i guess!

[catkiller45]

Big Ted,

What bullets you shootin? Bore or groove diameter?.....Or is it not a paper patch?

Myself,I see no need to patch a groove diameter as long as the lube is doing it's job..

I am thinking my bore dia. are to big as well..Perhaps I should be using something like a .441 diameter...Or maybe I just aint gettin the hang of the whole damn thing..:groner::groner:

[bigted]

my two boolits consist of an rcbs mould that throws a hollow base boolit that is .452 diameter and weighs 540 grains...the other is a baco mould of .444 diameter boolit weighing exactly 500 grains and flat base that im just now getting round to playing with.

ive had very good luck with the rcbs but with the results i got today with 10 going into the same hole at 50 yards for a test is encouraging with the .444 inch diameter baco boolits. wrapped to .4505 inch they bump better then i surmised they would so more tests are in demand at longer range to see if they hold the mark.

the load for these is 6 grains imr 4227 and 54 grains goex 2 f express...1/8th felt wad...the boolit needs to be seated .860 in the case so this is all the powder i could get into my winchester cases. having a 1/2 inch compression for the powder i cant see compressing it any more without bulging the cases. my bore in the browning is a tight .4495 inch so i cant get the patched nose section into the rifling...gonna try a .441 or .442 next to see if i can get it to seat out far enough to get the 70 grains total i want. altho having said this i must confess that i really enjoy the 60 grain total loads. i think i could shoot 100 of these straight without tiring out from recoil.

about the only thing i dont like particularilly with these smaller diameter boolits is that i have to run my cases thru a full length size die so they will be the least bit tight enough to grip the boolit at all. i dont know about the smaller boolits tho as they would be loose in the sized cases...maybe the remington cases as they are a bit thicker in the neck area...sumtin to try...this never gets old...man im havin a ball with all this...even the dissapointments.

[bigted]

Big Ted,

What bullets you shootin? Bore or groove diameter?.....Or is it not a paper patch?

Myself,I see no need to patch a groove diameter as long as the lube is doing it's job..

I am thinking my bore dia. are to big as well..Perhaps I should be using something like a .441 diameter...Or maybe I just aint gettin the hang of the whole damn thing..:groner::groner:


the bore diameter boolits bare as cast begin at .450 and go up to .444 or so...this is called a bore diameter becouse it will and should paper up to or slightly under the bore of your rifles barrel or slightly over.

the groove diameter boolits can be from .450 inch to .454 depending on what thickness the paper you are using so the wrapped diameter comes to within .001 or so from the groove diameter in your rifle to .002 over the groove diameter.

greese groove boolits will be sized to the groove or slightly over by .001 or .002 so they will grab the rifling and not skip at the begining of the journey down the barrel...with enough lube in the grooves of the boolit to keep the lead from being deposited on the barrel steel and also to hopefully keep the fouling soft enough to wipe easy or perform with a blow tube.

hopefully i got all that rite...[smilie=1:...:drinks:

[catkiller45]

Sounds like a good start to me and thanks for the advise

[montana_charlie]

I am thinking my bore dia. are to big as well..Perhaps I should be using something like a .441 diameter...Or maybe I just aint gettin the hang of the whole damn thing...
You never have told us about that chamber cast you are planning to make.

Until you (and we) know which chamber you are trying to load for, we can't really help much.

CM

[catkiller45]

having a piece of **** camera it is not a very good picture....I marked the rifling....And it looks to be maybe .150 from case to start of rifleing???? It's the best this old bullet riddled bastard could do....http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_19434f9459c006d2f.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4908)

[montana_charlie]

Looking at that picture too long could cause a toothache in a set of dentures.
I looked at it until I was overcome with motion sickness.

I think I see things which might refute what you said, but I'll take your word on the .15" freebore.

Given that, I would call it a toss up for predicting success with patched-to-bore.
It's a bit long for patched-to-bore, but you might make it work if you carefully use all of the workarounds developed for that method.

CM

[catkiller45]

maybe thats why I take my teet out...lol I wish it was a better picture.....

So tell me what your seeing...please.....come on Charlie tell me about it,damn it....Maybe there is no since waasteing any more of my time working with it and just stick with the g g bullets...

[catkiller45]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_19434f947a9287091.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4910)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_19434f947a9287091.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4910)



maybe this is better?

gotta get a better camera for sure or a new rifle....hope the price of corn and beans gets better

[montana_charlie]

So tell me what your seeing...please.....come on Charlie tell me about it,damn it....
I was wondering if this line on the cast (visible in both pictures) was the actual mouth of the case.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=5277

The line you drew to indicate the end of the chamber ... how far is it from the face of the rim ... about 2.335 inches?

CM

[catkiller45]

yes your right on charles..

[catkiller45]

If I could get a few used 45-90 cases I bet they would work great only
would have to be cut back some...Some if anyone has some they would
part with let me know...I want to try it...Maybe a dozen or so is all I want
to try them...As I have heard that 45-70 brass it too short for some
chambers...john

[montana_charlie]

yes your right on charles..
So, catkiller, what is the actual depth of your chamber?

CM

[Nobade]

Yeah, this is kind of hard to decipher - I don't see any freebore there, but as Montana Charlie says, what cartridge is your chamber cut for? There is a line back inside the chamber and another line where the rifling starts. Which is where the case stops?

[catkiller45]

well as far as I know it's supposed to be 45-70 you can see there is a space there befor the rifleing starts...I don't know if these will help or not wish my camera had a macro on it..http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_19434f95ca9260f77.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4920)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_19434f95ca9f63b18.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4921)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_19434f95caacc36ec.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4922)


looks to be a space of .150 from where the end of the case stops unless I am looking at it different than ya's are..from case rim to the rifleing is 2.157 inch...and there is a bit of a angle there as well..very slight.....I hope this all helps you to figure....how much longer is a 45-90 case anyway?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

45-90 is 2.4 inches long. Good lord what make of Junk is this rifle??

KW
The Lunger

[catkiller45]

sorry to say it is a pedersoli 1874 model.....I guess I just fail to understand all this chamber %^#%@ it;s way over my head...Sniffing too much diesel fuel I guess....if i had a better camera i might better tell ya whats going on with the scrap metal piece...lmao

[catkiller45]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_19434f95f0fa17619.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4924)

the bottom one is basicly like my chamber is...only my new win brass is .023 shorter...same 12 degree taper as well...

[montana_charlie]

sorry to say it is a pedersoli 1874 model...
No need to be apologize to Wasserburger. He thinks you are dealing with a 45/90.

The diagram you posted is pretty close to what you have, and I have some numbers for you derived from this one of your photos.

I used 'screen calipers' to determine measurements, and I calibrated 'my calipers' with your 2.022" reading in the image. All numbers should be very close to reality.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=5279


Distance A is your case length measurement of 2.022" from the front of the rim.

Distance B is added to A to get 2.081" which is the depth of your chamber from the front of the rim. Add the rim thickness, and you get a overall case length of about 2.145" which is not uncommon for Pedersoli chambers.

Distance C is the space used by the 12 degree chamber step transition angle. This is a gentler angle than that found on many modern chambers, and is said to be kinder to paper patched bullets than the common 45 degree angle.

Distance D is the length of the throat which is used by the leade angle. It may be a 1 degree, eleven minute angle because that has been used by Pedersoli in the past.


After doing my best with the image available, I would say ...

Yes, your 45/70 cases are going to be too short for that chamber. You can stretch what you have, or buy longer brass ... if you want an exact fit.
An exact fit is a good idea even if you go back to grease grooved bullets.

Because of the gentle, low angle chamber transition, you should be able to shoot patched-to-bore with minimal bullet damage.
And ... the throat is not the one with the long freebore found in the earlier Pedersoli Sharps rifles. Again, this should allow patched-to-bore bullets.

I know for a fact that patched-to-groove will shoot well in your gun. But most of the people who will be advising you are of the 'bore' sized school ... and I won't spend time trying to compete with their preference.

If you get totally frustrated, you can get my attention with a PM ...

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

No Charlie he asked how long a 45-90 case was, I told him how long a 45-90 is. I did not think it was a 45-90 Chamber.

Another messed up gun perhaps someone throated it?

KW
The Lunger

[Tom Myers]

sorry to say it is a pedersoli 1874 model.....I guess I just fail to understand all this chamber %^#%@ it;s way over my head...Sniffing too much diesel fuel I guess....if i had a better camera i might better tell ya whats going on with the scrap metal piece...lmao

Catkiller,

Maybe this sketch can give you a better understanding of the chamber %^#%@ terminology.

The sketch shows the dimensions of my Pedersoli 1874, 45-70 along with the dimensions of Starline Brass stretched out to 2.135" and loaded with a Lyman Postel, seated out to where the front band just contacts the tapered free bore .

I would venture to say that your chamber is probably quite close to these dimensions.

Hope this helps.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/45-70_Pedersoli/45-70_Govt~Starline~Lyman_457132_Lg.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/45-70_Pedersoli/45-70_Govt~Starline~Lyman_457132.Jpg

[Ed in North Texas]

snip
about the only thing i dont like particularilly with these smaller diameter boolits is that i have to run my cases thru a full length size die so they will be the least bit tight enough to grip the boolit at all. i dont know about the smaller boolits tho as they would be loose in the sized cases...maybe the remington cases as they are a bit thicker in the neck area...sumtin to try...this never gets old...man im havin a ball with all this...even the dissapointments.

Ted, I don't shoot these undersized boolits, but I think a neck sizer and maybe a taper crimp die might help in this situation.

Ed

[montana_charlie]

Ted, I don't shoot these undersized boolits, but I think a neck sizer and maybe a taper crimp die might help in this situation.

Ed
After sizing a case neck as small as the rifle die will make it, run the neck up into a .45 ACP die.

Then it will grip a bullet patched to bore diameter.

CM

[catkiller45]

OK I've come this far with it...So tell me how to stretch the brass.....I see buffalo arms has a do dad that goes in a RCBS die....It says it will stretch .020 I don't think it is enough...So tell me Charlie or someone...How do I stretch it....John

[Lead pot]

I was wondering if this line on the cast (visible in both pictures) was the actual mouth of the case.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=5277

The line you drew to indicate the end of the chamber ... how far is it from the face of the rim ... about 2.335 inches?

CM

Where those shiny rings where on the cast when it was pushed out ? if so I would say you have two chamber rings starting.

Cant say for sure looking at those pictures.

[montana_charlie]

OK I've come this far with it...So tell me how to stretch the brass.....I see buffalo arms has a do dad that goes in a RCBS die....It says it will stretch .020 I don't think it is enough...So tell me Charlie or someone...How do I stretch it....John
You're going to hate me for this ...

A couple of years ago, with the help of a machinist friend in Canada, I 'invented' a case stretching tool. I did that because my cases were too short for my chamber. Then, I found out that it was true for many others, too.

It will stretch a case more than double the .020" that the BACO unit will give you.

But, I don't have any part in the sale of those stretchers. My goal was to get it made and functioning in a way that any owner could understand.
I am still the 'tech support guy' for handling questions and problems, but you need to contact (forum member) Red River Rick to actually acquire one.

The reason you are going to hate me is ...
It ain't a cheap solution to 'short brass'. But, it IS an effective solution.
And ... it doesn't work on Winchester brass because that brand is thin enough already.

Red River Rick has a webpage for his stuff ...
http://kal.castpics.net/

If you are dealing with less than (say) a hundred cases, it's probably better to buy 45/90 brass and cut it down.

CM

[catkiller45]

I aint gonna hate you Charlie..lmao I looked at the thing buffalo arms has and watched a few videos on it//Looks like it will take a long time to do a few cases even though it is cheap at 39 dollars....That is why I was looking to get a few 45-90's just to try...And the tool they sell I think only stretchs like .020 which may be enough.I have no idea....I got to get out in the field soon for planting..This last snow really made a mess of mud....Thanks for the information...John

[Don McDowell]

Cat, I have an Italian rifle with the same chamber problems. I'ld suggest you get some of those stretched brass from Baco, and a Lee 45-70 trimmer. Set the trimmer up in your drill press and trim those cases back until you get the length you want.
Starline 45-90 cases will work but it is a pretty tight fit with grease groove bullets. Trimming back the Norma basics you can't seat a greaser and get the round to chamber without turning the necks, that brass does however work well for bore diameter patched bullets.

[montana_charlie]

I looked at the thing buffalo arms has and watched a few videos on it//Looks like it will take a long time to do a few cases even though it is cheap at 39 dollars....John
John,
A customer of ours made a video, too. He needed 'more stretch' than most guys, so we built a drawing punch for him that had different dimensions than the 'regular stock'.

In the video, he is getting about .050" of stretch ... in one pass ... and the thickness of the case neck is not affected.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGzQsrPT4Qs

The punch he used is now the standard punch, but a small 'user adjustment' is required to get .050". That is just to keep guys from stretching radically more than they actually need.

CM

[catkiller45]

interesting video...I see that gismo BACO has said it is for RCBS dies and it is 1/4 inch....My RCBS dies don't have a 1/4 rod in them....Must be for a special die or I am missing something...

[montana_charlie]

I see that gismo BACO has said it is for RCBS dies and it is 1/4 inch....My RCBS dies don't have a 1/4 rod in them....Must be for a special die or I am missing something...
Trying to be helpful even though it's a competitor's product ... I think the Smith-Lyons stretching slug goes into your full-length sizing die after removing the depriming rod.

CM

[catkiller45]

your right it does but mine is no a 1/4 rod....maybe a miss print.....i will call them when I get time to...