? about shooting FMJ & cast in same gun

[bob v]

I've read some of the posts that guys say they scrubb all the copper out of the barrels from shooting fmj bullets before shooting cast. Why is this necessary and what happens if you don't? Accuracy is bad? lots of fouling? what? Just trying to learn some of this CB stuff before I get into it. Thanks ....bob v

[Reload3006]

lead likes to stick to copper a lot more than it does to steel. there is a higher possibility for leading with a copper fouled bore. ... Some people give you the advice to save a couple j words to clean lead fouling out ... the best teacher is try both and find out what works for you.

[bob v]

so, because I'm shooting mostly milsurps if I clean as much copper out as possible (you never get it all) I can just shoot cast and see how it does?

[beagle]

Well, take a classic example. I looked all over for a Marlin 336 with the old rifling. I found one at a gun show on Saturday, rushed home, cleaned it, loaded some cast and headed to the range on Sunday morning.

The barrel looked allright. Not sharp and shiny but I figured it would shoot cast all right.

After firing a box, I mined some lead out of that thing and finally took it home to remove the remainder as the barrel looked like a New Jersey sewer pipe.

I removed most of the leading and then the barrel didn't look so sharp so I figured I'd been had on a deal.

Came home on Moday and the muzzle was green at the end. Aha!

I soaked and cleaned that barrel all week and by next Sunday, I had clean, bright rifling and no more green showing over night.

Took it to the range and things have been right since.

I figured that old rifle had been shot all it's life with jacketed bullets and never had been really cleaned. There was so much copper fouling that it just sandpapered those first cast bullets all along the barrel and I had a heck of a mess.

Since then, I've been a firm beleiver in removing any copper redidues possible before firing cast.

It's an ugly old Marlin 336 that's been beat all it's life but it sure does shoot cast./beagle

[stubshaft]

For the sake of discussion, let's say that you don't clean the barrel. You cast some boolits out of xyz alloy and make some of your homemade lube. You go to the range and accuracy is terrible and the barrel is leaded.

Which component do you address first?

[bob v]

I see your point. I always do clean my rifles after each use,but like the Isso paste in the other thread,with 80 to 100 + year old battle rifles that have shot jacketed all their life, I could pull green patchs out of them from now to kingdom come. I really was wondering just how clean they must be to shoot cast and what the effects were so . Thanks for the info guys.....bob v

[462]

Buy a bottle of Montana X-treme Copper Killer and follow the directions.

[Larry Gibson]

I think there's two schools of thought; If you a barrel (handgun or rifle) that doesn't foul with jacketed then I find I can shoot both jacketed and cast intermixed without fouling or leading. Mike Venturino did a test of several rifles and published an article on this very topic. He had the same accuracy with cast regardless of cleaning all the fouling out and no leading. I've also found to same over many years of testing.

On the other hand. If you've a barrel (again, handgun or rifle) that fouls easily with jacketed then shooting cast on top of that fouling will also likely result in a leaded barrel. Most often the barrel would easily lead if cast alone were shot in it, especially without a good, quality lube.

So to this quandery there is no specific answer other than the usual; " it depends". That being the mainly the propensity of the barrel to foul or lead in the 1st place. However, the use of poor lubes also heavily favors leading, especially in longer barreled milsurps. You'd be surprised what a proper firelapping can do for those barrels with a propensity to foul or lead.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

And, don't forget, a high in antimony and low in tin boolit is a good lapper boolit when shot slowly, slowly enough NOT to cause antimony leading. Antimony leading (also called wash) appears when tin inclusion is not sufficient for the velocity being shot, and is different than lead leading because the latter builds up destroying accuracy whereas the former does not. ... felix

[runfiverun]

i have several guns that have never, ever, seen jaxketed.
i like to get them clean and shoot the lead first, once i get that working properly, i find that shooting copper on top is no big deal.
some of my rifles , most of the revolvers, one of my 1911's and one 9mm have never seen copper
i wouldn't hesitate to shoot it in them but i don't even have copper coated stuff for many of my guns.

[Grandpas50AE]

My experience follows what Larry said. I've shot both in my .44Mag handguns at full hunting-level loads for years and had no leading issues, but the barrels were hand lapped just after buying them - so they were smooth enough to not foul much (jacketed or cast either one) at the performance levels I've loaded them at. Additionally, I have done the same with my .45/70 Marlin, pushin jacketed 405 gr. at 1600, and cast at near the same, with no lead build-up. As others have stated, if you start with a fouled barrel, either copper-jacket or lead, anything you shoot after that will just get worse.
Probably a good idea to do like beagle did and get all fouling out first, and if necessary, fire lap it to get rid of minute rough spots that are causing the fouling to start with.
In my .300 Mag, I have found that one of the very best copper fouling removers is a product called "RB-17". It is a gel that contains an organic form of ammonia, which gobbles up copper fouling like there's no tomorrow.

[220swiftfn]

I see your point. I always do clean my rifles after each use,but like the Isso paste in the other thread,with 80 to 100 + year old battle rifles that have shot jacketed all their life, I could pull green patchs out of them from now to kingdom come. I really was wondering just how clean they must be to shoot cast and what the effects were so . Thanks for the info guys.....bob v

I use janitorial strength ammonia (10% I think) wet patch and dry patch until the DARK blue goes away, then run some Hoppe's. Don't leave the bore dry after using the ammonia, and don't get it on the finish, it'll strip it. I have an old aluminum rod and a plastic jag that works well with this......


Dan

[Gohon]

Putting aside the gun that was never cleaned after years of copper jacketed bullets.......It would seem to me that when shooting gas checked cast, everyone is in a world of trouble. The first shot is lead down the barrel with copper trailing behind. The the next shot and all shots after that is running lead behind the previous copper left by the gas check with more copper to follow. Doesn't make sense...........

[uscra112]

Getting years of copper fouling out takes time. I'm stripping three guns at the moment - an old Savage 219, a K31, and a 1917 Enfield sporter. I'm using Hoppe's Benchrest, (it's what I've got), and the first two took ten days or so of patch out, wipe with a wet swab, let soak 12 hours, and repeat, and repeat, and repeat, until the green stopped showing on the patches. The 1917 is ALMOST there. I cut up old T-shirts for patches. If I used store-boughten patches I'd be reduced to eating nothing but beans for a week! Wish I could find that expensive Foul-Out system I bought back about 1998 or so. Back when I had money and no time.

[honus]

I had several happy customers ask why their firearms didn’t lead anymore after I re-blued their firearms. No magic. The bluing salts (290 degree sodium hydroxide) dissolved all of the copper fowling.

[reloader45]

There is an article in this Months Guns and Ammo(April 2012) about the new powder Hodgdon's has out with Hornaday that stops copper fouling. Lots of micro photos and they have loads for 27 calibers.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/hodgdon_CFE223.htm