Your opinion on muzzle loader shotgun

[x101airborne]

So I got my Pedersoli Trade Gun in today and am looking to use it for a squirrel gun. Now since 62 caliber is a little on the large side for a single ball, I will use it as a shotgun.

Now without carrying about 4 different shot sizes and such, I was wondering if anyone has made "pre measured" shot charges? My idea was / is......

Pre-cut a certian number of 100% cotton resume paper rectangles. Just slightly larger than two wraps around a 62 caliber 9/16 felt wad forming a "cup". Use Elmers School Glue to secure the patch seam and the union between the felt wad and the paper cup. After drying, lube the outside of the base wad and the hull with (insert favorite ML grease here). Add appropriate amount of shot, add cornmeal for buffer on buckshot, and cut the top of the tube in 4 equal sections. Fold sections over and secure with a small spot of School Glue.

My theory is..... When loaded, the shot will remain contained in the paper acting like the petals of our modern wads. The folded top should be thick enough to allow the shot to be retained like an over shot card. These could be written on or colored to identify the shot.

Now I am sure..... That I am not the first to come up with the idea, but I cant find any reference to it anywhere. Can someone tell me where this may or may not be flawed? And yes, I do understand that sometimes it is just not that simple.

[405]

Oh yes, about every variation as you describe has been tried.

Trial and error of the patterning and reliability of the cup/wad will tell. Interesting and sometimes amazing to note: given the tremendous acceleration and violent trip down the bore and pressure from the rear, many such paper cup designs ( for increasing shot pattern density out of ML cylinders) will stay together and yield a single slug of paper wrapped shot on target. Getting consistent shot patterning is possible but testing is usually necessary.

[Mike Brooks]

Stick with standard cards and wads, your patterns wil lbe great for squirrels. What you have cooked up is going to stay a big wad of shot.

[stubshaft]

am curious as to why you would need to carry 4 different sizes of shot?

IIRC - There was a speedloader being sold for BP shotguns a while ago or you can just make paper tubes and fill it with whatever weight of shot you desire.

Personally I no longer use felt wads in my Pedersoli. I just use two .125" overpowder wads and cap the shot with a single .060 card. Pattern testing in my guns have shown that there was no advantage to use felt anymore.

I can usually load fast enough with my flask and shotsnake to be able to almost keep up with the rest of the shooters on a trap range.

While your idea does have some merit the areas I think you should look at are.

If you apply lube to the outside of the base and hull, you may soften the paper to the point of uselessness or create a big slippery mass that would have everything sticking to it. You may have better luck making your cylinders out of waxpaper or dipping it in beeswax/bullet lube like the premade ball charges with tied ends.

If the entire shot column was near bore diameter it will /may not open up once it reaches the muzzle (google cut shells). The only way to eliminate this would be to make the cylinder smaller so that it breaks apart when being rammed home, thus insuring the shot is held captive by the paper.

One of the main reasons that nearly all of my modern shotguns are now virtual safe queens is that I like to take my time loading as I shoot my BP guns.

[Coffeecup]

Stick with standard cards and wads, your patterns wil lbe great for squirrels. What you have cooked up is going to stay a big wad of shot.

This is not all bad in a stake shoot, but you might never know if you hit the squirrel . . .

[waksupi]

Start with the sticky, of Vic Starr's method of loading. I've been using it for around 40 years, and it works well.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have never used the Pedersoli trade gun but my 20 ga double has fired thousands of shots. most of which have been shot in clay target games. The load we used was shot dipper set on 7/8ths oz, equal parts shot and ffg, using Mike Eders wads, 1 card, 1/2 of a fiber wad and a over shot. Wehave mainly used cooking oil, both sons used their moms butter flavored oil because it smelled like popping pop corn when shooting. Your chrome lined bore will work a little different than the old barrels, at least mine have.
I have tried pre loads, mainly in my Pedersoli Brown Bess 11 bore, They work OK, as others have said unless the shot cup is undersized, the shot will ball. I made them up out of news print. I ended up making small shot pouches out of leather with a wooden end and a stopper which hold about 12 oz of shot and a small horn. A shoe polish tin makes an ideal wad box.
To tighten the pattern use less powder, start around 10%less. you may need to use a size larger shot. Test it on a tin can, if it penetrates one side it will penetrate a squrriel.

[x101airborne]

I knew I was half baked. It couldnt be this easy.
I looked for the above mentioned sticky, and had no success. I will try to find it by looking up all threads by him and see if that brings it up.

Dont worry guys, this wont be my last bad idea. LOL. I am just now really getting into this muzzle loading thing and am really enjoying it.

I took the 54 cal "Krack" gun out the other day and missed a coon with it. Confused the heck out of him, so I hid behind a tree, reloaded, then charged him! After almost re-arranging my dental work on a shredder stob that I didn't see, he bristled up and treed. Then I shot him at close range. Actually, I set him on fire, but the end result was the same. One hole through the pump of that coon. I know 54 cal is a little big, but it worked well.

[Boz330]

The last sticky down at the top of the page.

I would also like to see pictures of your trade gun if you can. Cabela's carries them and I have a pile of credit with them.

Bob

[x101airborne]

The last sticky down at the top of the page.

Bob

AW, son of a gun! How did I miss that?

[Mike Brooks]

I have never used the Pedersoli trade gun but my 20 ga double has fired thousands of shots. most of which have been shot in clay target games. The load we used was shot dipper set on 7/8ths oz, equal parts shot and ffg, using Mike Eders wads, 1 card, 1/2 of a fiber wad and a over shot. Wehave mainly used cooking oil, both sons used their moms butter flavored oil because it smelled like popping pop corn when shooting. Your chrome lined bore will work a little different than the old barrels, at least mine have.
Excellent 20 bore load. For upland hunting I use a 1oz dipper.

[Hubertus]

x101airborne, yes, pictures would be nice.

You guys with your smoothbore threads.
It's already hard enough as it is after DIRT_Farmer hooked me on that game.

:lol:


The loading with a shot bag and measure was pretty quick in the field - quicker than I thought it would be.

Still, I had a lot of time on the flight back home and of course am not the first one to think about ready loads - as this thread proves. What if one created a paper cartridge similar to civil war time with two compartments. Shot in the front, powder in the rear. Tear open the rear part (with your teeth - if it must be) than pour the powder, put overpowder wadding and ram it. Tear out the rear compartment, pour the shot and one could probably use the remainder of the paper cartridge as over shot "wadding" and ram it..
I am not an expert - far from it - as I shot a flintlock for the first time, just a couple of weeks ago (thanks again DIRT_Farmer) but it just came to my mind to try something like this - once I get the act together with a smoothie. So I put this in front of you more experienced.

By the way DIRT_Farmer I called Tip yesterday, unfortunately he doesn't ship out of the country - so whenever I get the chance to go back over the pond I might have to visit him and take a smooth bore home.

Hubertus

[DIRT Farmer]

Hubertus it's hard to get those Tennessee boys up with the modern times, they think they are already in heaven, of course the time I went down for some training and the locals put on a pig picking I thought I was in heaven.

I made up some tubes several times, the best were the indivual packets, one for powder and another for shot. I also took 1/2 PVC cut to about 2 inches and glued the cap on one end and left the other slip fit. If you could plug it in the middle and use the caps on each end for seperating the shot and powder it would work.

The hunting trip was I think Hubertu's first time loading from a pouch for shotgun. By the end of the hunt he was picking up speed quickly. By the time I had the dog find the bird and gotten it to pouch he was loaded. It goes quicker than most think.

[Hubertus]

:grin: living in heaven - nice thought.
Well I understand him, it's a lot one has to put up with all the export and import rules. He is a very nice guy, though, we talked about 30 minutes and he was giving me some advice what to look for.
I found that to be the case for all the BP guys I met so far: nice people, easy to get along with and bending over backwards to get you started and hooked on the black stuff :lol:

Good idea with the PVC pipe!

Hubertus

[Boz330]

Enablers all of them, especially if they have anything to do with the black stuff.

Bob

[John Taylor]

When I got my first front stuffer shotgun I had some help from an old timer. He said it needed to be loaded hot enough to go threw a tin can or it would not do any killing. I found out plastic wads are not a good idea with BP.
If you are the only one with a BP shotgun while shooting trap you will have a bunch of people mad at you.

[x101airborne]

Well, I am not worried about any of my trap buddies unless they want to go out and try to catch my un-busted birds....LOL.

I have had some advice from the guy that sold me the weapon that plastic shot cups were not a good idea and I havent tried them on his advice. And I dont think I will. I am just looking for a way to go to the ranch with one pouch and have a little buckshot for skunks and small hogs, a little #4 for squirrels, a little #8's for doves. Maybe not carry all of em at one time, but just have em in available pouches. Or... Maybe I am just looking too much into it. With cartriges it is way too easy to carry a bunch of different stuff. I am just looking for the same utility.

[Boerrancher]

If you are the only one with a BP shotgun while shooting trap you will have a bunch of people mad at you.

Is this anger do to all of the smoke or is it because they shoot better and you can bust more birds?

Best wishes,

Joe

[stubshaft]

When I first started to pattern my front stuffer I was amazed at the patterns it was throwing. The lack of a forcing cone causes less distortion of the shot and my patterns were tighter and more dense than my stock guns.

[DIRT Farmer]

X101, I have used pill bottles for what I thought I might need one or two loads of a different size. When I plan on spending a day at the swamp,my little piece of heaven, I carry bismuth shot in one pouch and # 5 lead in another for birds, rabbits and squriells. Bismuth costs enough I don't use it unless the law requires it as in water foul hunting, just don't take the lead into the duck blind.
Flintlocks Inc at Nevina In have a nifty ram rod end that has a wad screw inside the end of the ram rod that makes changing the load easy. Round balls shoot well enough loaded with wadding, not patched to work on big game. Two types of shot, and round balls some fire starting materiels and a bit of salt make for a great day.

[Boerrancher]

Two types of shot, and round balls some fire starting materiels and a bit of salt make for a great day.

I know that statement to be true. When I was a kid, my best friend and I would grab our muzzleloaders, a few staples like bacon grease, salt and a frying pan, and strike out for the head waters of the creek that runs through the farm here, or add our fishing gear to the mix and follow it to the river. Which ever direction we went, we would spend several days blasting bushy tails with reduced loads, and in general living off of the land. Neither of us had a muzzleloading shot gun or trade gun, I can only imagine the devastation we would have cause to the small game population if we'd of had them.

Best wishes,

Joe

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Don't shoot it! You will fall in love with it. I'll take my BP shotguns out more than my "modern" ones.http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/SPRINGFIELDM141972/BPshotguns.jpg

[John Taylor]

Is this anger do to all of the smoke or is it because they shoot better and you can bust more birds?

Best wishes,

Joe

The smoke and the time loading throws every other shooter off. Some serious trap shooter don't like any distractions, they will even pass on a late bird and call for another one. I call it a miss if they don't take the bird. In the wild with real birds you never know when they will fly. The other problem is you always have to ask the next guy if you hit anything, can't tell with all the smoke.

[Boerrancher]

The smoke and the time loading throws every other shooter off. Some serious trap shooter don't like any distractions, they will even pass on a late bird and call for another one. I call it a miss if they don't take the bird. In the wild with real birds you never know when they will fly. The other problem is you always have to ask the next guy if you hit anything, can't tell with all the smoke.

Now I know for sure I have got to have a smooth bore. The guys at the local gun club seem to only want to shoot shot guns. I brought up the idea of a candle match and it was shot down because most of the guys said it would be to expensive for them to shoot in, with the price of pellets, and power band bullets. I am bound and determined to weasel my way in and shoot a ML there some way some how, and if I can piss a bunch of people off while doing it the better. The few hill country folk won't mind, but we have a big bunch from the city that come out and push everyone else around. It is their way or the highway and if they don't win they change the rules. I may only get to shoot one match, but it would be worth it.

Best wishes,

Joe

[KCSO]

I carry a shot pouch and load with teh looose shot as I found it paterns better. But to speed up the reloads i glue the base wad to the cushion wad and put a small hole in them. Then I string them to the side of the pouch, then I can just pull a combo wad off the pouch seat and dum the shot. I only use one size of shot for everything and usually get clean kills on everything from doves to turkey. IF you use a pre formed unit you need to slit the side of the ctg as you load it so it doesn't clump.

[x101airborne]

Well, I did it. I killed my first squirrel on Saturday with my flintlock 20. Getting GREAT penetration using a 2 1/4 dram load of #8 shot. A real killer for squirrel. After hunting with it a while, I think I should just carry a pistol with me of adequate power for hogs and such. Trying to carry all that shot and fumble around is just too much.

[DIRT Farmer]

It is funny at the skeet range, most just stand around and watch, the expression is like they can't help but watch but want no part of the beast. The range I go to has a voice activater so I mostly shoot by my self. On a 4 man squad I can keep up using a shot snake and horn. The few guys that will shoot with me let me shoot first and last on 1,2,6 and 7.

I'm not at all surprised at the penetration, have you patterned it yet ot tried round ball?

[Hubertus]

x101airborne - Waidmannsheil as we say over here.
That makes me really jealous! How did it taste?

DIRT_Farmer, what gun are you using on the skeet range - a double?
I am actually thinking about starting slowly by reloading some of my 16GA with BP - see how the guys react the next time at the range.

As for the candle match, Boerrancher, maybe it's worth trying with some reverse psychology. Just set up a candle match exclusively for the "hill country folk" no city slickers allowed - create a small trophy as a challenge cup the winner holds until the next match - nothing fancy.
You'll see the city folk will come running :p

Hubertus

[DIRT Farmer]

Hubertus I us the Pedersoli 10 that I was hunting with. It is my go to gun where 2 shots are required, I have not had much luck on pairs with the trade gun but have pulled it off on a sporting clays range once. They were letting me shoot everything singles and for a joke threw a pair in a crossing shot. I saw it coming and reset the shot, getting both. They wanted to see it again but I told them I had barely enough powder to finish the course. (whew, got away with it)
X101 saw your other post, game is best shared with friends, especialy firsts.

[Boerrancher]

Trey, good shootin' on that squirrel. As I learned with the 'yote the other day. Even though I love the ML, with hogs and yotes running wild in the woods I think I will carry my Ruger GP100 and an extra speed loader. The other evening was just to close for comfort. I would suggest you do the same thing. I know it sucks packing the extra weight, but I would rather be safe than sorry. Neither of us need to get eaten by a wayward hog or coyote, simply because we couldn't reload fast enough.

Best wishes,

Joe

[x101airborne]

Trey, good shootin' on that squirrel. As I learned with the 'yote the other day. Even though I love the ML, with hogs and yotes running wild in the woods I think I will carry my Ruger GP100 and an extra speed loader. The other evening was just to close for comfort. I would suggest you do the same thing. I know it sucks packing the extra weight, but I would rather be safe than sorry. Neither of us need to get eaten by a wayward hog or coyote, simply because we couldn't reload fast enough.

Best wishes,

Joe

Thank you sir for your kind words. Geargnasher was with me and we both laughed when that hog wuffed and ran out. He had my AR-30 with nightvision and a new model blackhawk on his hip. When that hog wuffed at us, he was shooting and I had YOUR flint knife in my hand like I was going to do something with it. Why I did not grab his blackhawk, I dont know, but I did feel right at home with that neck harness and knife. I had it pulled and ready for a fight before I realized what happened. Dang good feeling knife.

[WildShot]

There was a speedloader being sold for BP shotguns a while ago...

still for sale if this is what you are refering to...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/108984f5f75c1f23fd.jpg

This is what I use while shooting single barrel skeet and sporting clays. I put 25 in a standard 2 pocket belt shell bag and can pretty well keep up with the rest of a squad. Send me a private message if you are interested in getting some of these.

[stubshaft]

still for sale if this is what you are refering to...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/108984f5f75c1f23fd.jpg

This is what I use while shooting single barrel skeet and sporting clays. I put 25 in a standard 2 pocket belt shell bag and can pretty well keep up with the rest of a squad. Send me a private message if you are interested in getting some of these.

That is the one!

[WildShot]

$2 bucks per + S&H. Got plenty ready to ship. They last like forever. might even put together a special deal for an order of 25.

[x101airborne]

Yay!!!! I recieved my 61 cal lyman round ball mold and tried it out yesterday. I cast about 20 out of 30-1 alloy and they finished out at .611. Pedersoli recommends a ball diamater of .615, so I just stepped up my patch thickness. I decided to use a military 50 cal cleaning patches lubed with olive oil. These were tight in the first foot and a half of the barrel (the muzzle end) then the barrel opened up and the ball seated easily toward the breech end. I think this will work out quite nicely. I hope to make it to the range tomorrow if the weather allows. Will be trying these over my standard charge of 2 drams FF powder, a 3/8 felt wad, and the lubed patch ball. If I can hit a 10 inch paper plate at 100 yards, I will be extatic.

[x101airborne]

Well, tried out the pedersoli with the round ball today. I wasn't too impressed as far as accuracy goes. Yeah, they hit and made round holes (hahaha, round ball) but accuracy was not so much and the drop was terriffic. If I didn't flinch, I would keep most hits on a paper plate at 50 yards, but not always. At 100 yards, I would have to hold over about a foot and then, maybe, I would hit a 50 pound feedsack. It was about like shooting a cannon. I am still stoked about this thing as a shotgun, so I think that is where it will stay. I will just use the 54 hawken for a rifle.

[waksupi]

Keep practicing, long range will get better. Trigger control is real important.

[DIRT Farmer]

Waksupi is right, there is a learning curve. Part of the attraction is doing something others find diffcult.
I had Hubertus hitting the bear at 120 yds. It is 18 by 24 inches.

[Boerrancher]

Waksupi is right, there is a learning curve. Part of the attraction is doing something others find diffcult.
I had Hubertus hitting the bear at 120 yds. It is 18 by 24 inches.

I wonder how a smoothy would group at 120 yards? Have any of you ever tried to put it on paper at that distance?

Trey, this is just a wild guess here, but with the PRBs try bumping up your powder charge a bit more 5 or 10 grains at a time, and see what happens. I have never played with a smoothy but I have shot plenty of rifles that wouldn't hit the broad side of the barn until the charge was up near what most would consider max. I had a Traditions Hawken years ago that with 90 grs of 2FG was shooting 18 to 20 inch groups at 100 yards. Bumped it up to 100 grs and it went to 12 inches. I went to 110 grains and shrunk it to 8 inches. I finally stopped at 120 grains, and the 5 shot groups were averaging 4 inches. I kept the gun for a couple of years, but eventually got tired of it and sold it for a small profit, as I had other guns that shot just as good with less powder.

Best wishes,

Joe

[DIRT Farmer]

With swaged balls the 28 ga is fairly consistant, but cast with a sprue things go South quickly past 50. I am going to cast up a bunch and put them in the tumbler, hopefully round up the sprues some. I have had some sucess putting the sprue down in a patch, who knows what is up when shooting wadded.

[dmize]

I have been a ML lover since school when I read my first book about Mountain Men. I started shooting Rendevous with a friend of mine seversl years ago and was smitten. I bought an original double 10 ga and shot skeet in the Sho Me games and killed a bunch of squirrels with it.
I bought a Pedersoli SXS 10ga a couple years ago and well it hasnt been a happy relationship. It appears the barrels are regulated very well,at 20 yards they pattern about a foot apart and with the shot cups I bought for turkey hunting its even worse. And has anyone bought extra tubes and honed them cylinder bore so they can be loaded easier?

[x101airborne]

I hate to hear that you are having such trouble with your double. Pedersoli has been known to hit or miss with their regulation. I have wanted one of their double 50 or 54 cal rifles, but have held off for fear of the regulation issue. Recently I have been looking on various sites for origional BP shotguns and rifles. I have found some that are interesting, but most are REALLY expensive. I too would love to have an origional double 10. Sounds like you got a good un!

[Alan]

I have been a ML lover since school when I read my first book about Mountain Men. I started shooting Rendevous with a friend of mine seversl years ago and was smitten. I bought an original double 10 ga and shot skeet in the Sho Me games and killed a bunch of squirrels with it.
I bought a Pedersoli SXS 10ga a couple years ago and well it hasnt been a happy relationship. It appears the barrels are regulated very well,at 20 yards they pattern about a foot apart and with the shot cups I bought for turkey hunting its even worse. And has anyone bought extra tubes and honed them cylinder bore so they can be loaded easier?

I heard that the Pedersoli chokes are interchangeable w/ browning Invectors. If you are having problems loading, you are using the wrong wads. Have you tried the methods in the sticky at the top of this forum? I have a full-choke single trap gun that shoots so tight it is like using a rifle, and I'm just using 2 OP wads, no cushion wad, and then an OS wad over the shot. I have a Pedersoli SXS 12 that I need to get out and pattern - I haven't even fired it yet.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have a Pedersoli 10 ga magmum that I don't shoot much, got it in a deal from a guy who decided to get into muzzle loading and had a Cabalas catalog. He also had the idea that bigger was better and had a .72 rifle, I got both for $350 and the rifle had one barrel loaded. I diden't have the nerve to shoot the load out so I emptied it with a CO2 discharger.

To the problem at hand, I patterned the gun it had 4 Pedersoli tubes with it 2 FC, 1 M and 1 Cylinder. I patterned it with all. A 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 load shoots nicely usind ffg in a dipper set 1/8 less than the shot load 1 over powder wad and 1/2 cousin wad dipped in a bees wax-olive oil mix. There is a noiticable step where the choak tube joins the barrel. I start the wads side ways in the choke tube and use a short starter to load.
As for the regulation I have cut the side of the barrel , left side to move the load right on fixed choke guns, It would most likely work the same in a choke tube. I have one origonal, and have seen several that have a noticable amount removed from one side of the barrel. If you buy an origonal that has the ends of the barrel not square, shoot it before trying to true it up. Per articles, a lot of old time gunsmiths did this regulary.
I shoot a lot of M-L shotgun and even though I really like both Belgum 9 ga and my English 10, I shoot the Pedersoli 10 with fixed chokes the most because modern locks don't wear nearly as fast and I can make it pattern for anything from sporting clays to skeet to trap.
Cabalas has choke tupes to fit the gun.