need help with 2 questions

[Catch]

I need a hand with dry patching. I have had some success with wet ones and I want to try the dry style. So far, no luck, and I can't even keep them on the lead. How do you do it? Secondly is the proper way to determine size, to prep a pp that fills the freebore? Is a boolit with a patch that just fits the fired case a good place to start?
I have had a time with my .303 Enfield as it has a 5 groove bore and I have not yet determined its exact groove diameter. I think its about .314 but thats kind of a guess using some of the methods that I have read about. I also seem to have trouble getting the patchs to twist around the base but it may be old age with a touch of arthur in my hands and a case of incompetance. Your opinions will be appreciated . THANKS.............

[303Guy]

Hi Catch
Well, dry wrapping is how I do it. But - I do not twist the tails. I have worked out the exact size and shape of the patch and apply it dry then put a sliver of glue along the overhanging edge, then twist the patch tight with my fingers. The overhanging edge or skirt as I call it then gets a final roll crimping over the boolit base and that's that.

Lee Enfield throats can be a bit tricky but some just happen to be perfect (after years of wear with cordite ammo). The nose section or bore-ride section needs to be patched to support the nose in the bore and that's were it gets tricky because too loose and it might not guide the boolit properly and too tight and you can't extract an unfired round without leaving the boolit behind. That's where polyester filler comes in handy, even if it's not needed. It keeps the powder in the case. I like to size the bases section so that it can be tightly hand seated but can't pull out and that with an unsized case neck. That becomes quite easy with printer paper but printer paper might be too thick for the nose. But then again it is more forgiving in that it compresses to fit the bore without locking the nose in the throat. Lots of variables in the matrix but it does work and only requires a little bit of fiddling around to get it right.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN011.jpg

I have had some problems with base deformation and even shank upset and worse still, nose slump. See my thread "Pitfalls of paper patching". Nothing insurmountable but I think worth being aware of.

You'll notice that my patches are curved. That's to fit the tapered boolits I make. Dry patches don't stretch to conform to the boolit shape so easily. They'll conform to grooves and such but not tapers.

So how I get the glue on is I first wrap the patch so it's straight then unwrap the bottom outer layer, apply a bead of glue, lay it back then twist in my fingers till it's tight.

[Catch]

Thanks for a great answer. I was hoping to hear from you as I know you like Enfields also. The inside diameter of my fired cases is . 318. Can I assume that at least the base section of the slug can be patched to that size safely? I had been sizing them and made a custom neck sizing tool as the factory one was too tight and tore the patches as I tried to seat them. As I said before I think the groove diameter is about .314 but with 5 grooves I am not totally sure. I then will have to use the pp bullet without any sizing after the patching process but I am assuming that they will compress themselves in the firing cycle. I will need some thicker paper to make .318 as the tracing paper I had been using will only make about .316 without sizing, and still is too loose in the fired case without resizing the neck. I had also tried to resize and then expand to make them a slightly tight fit without damaging the patch but it proved to be difficult to create a neck sizing expander that would do that. 2.5 to 3 inches at 100 yds was the best that I could do so far, but my 7.65 Argentine Mauser did a bit better with the same size pp bullets. Do you roll the tails of the patch dry with your fingers? I had in the past tried a cork wad, but now have gone to two thin paper discs that I punch out with a hand punch.
I use a drop of Elmer's school glue to hold them in place, and don't twist the tail at all.
In any event I am having a hell of alot of fun fiddling around. Thanks again for your help and your interest. Catch.....

[303Guy]

It's safe to make the base section .318. What can happen if the base is too large is on swaging into the bore the base gets cupped or worse, gets feathered. Printer paper is as thick as they come. I do roll the edge over with my fingers. I've found polyester filler to protect the boolit bases about as good as any if not better but a wad would protect the base against powder that would otherwise seriously peen the base. I have only tried gluing the wad on for test tube firings. It remained on into the catch medium. One reason I've shortened my patch overhang is that I've found the base still attached to the boolit so my thinking was a short skirt would come off quicker at the muzzle. It's the filler that protects it against muzzle blast but some have found better accuracy with a filler, possibly because of that protection.

Another consideration is seating deeper than the shoulder. It does seem counter-intuitive but at least one can set the boolit to fully contact the throat and leade, i.e. is less restrictive on boolit size and shape. Gear has done tests which show that a slightly under-bore diameter boolit shoots poorly.

I have one gun with a pretty well cordite modified bore and throat that shoots very well with snug neck fit lined notepad paper patches. This one has shallower rifling.

[bigted]

catch...im not the final authority on this but ill give my version of dry patching...

after discovering how long to make the patch i then put it on a flat hard surface...like a formica counter top....then i place the boolit on the paper with the sharp point to the left along with the nose of the boolit. i then place the point on top of the boolit and lick my finger with copious amount of spit and glue the point to the side of the boolit as it is aligned with the paper. then i carefully roll it as tight as possible till the other point arrives at the bottom of the newly rolled patch. then i carfully lift the whole patched boolit and bend over the tail starting with the pointy end section followed by the sections to either sides of this point followed with the opisite side from the pointed end to "seal" the other bends over the tail of the boolit...then after turning it against my hand in the same direction as the patching ...i set it on the counter top on the boolit base and while pressing down i turn it again till it sets flat.

takes way less time to do then to explain. if your patch is both long enough and wide enough then all points of attention will winde up in the rite place...if you have too wide a paper then you will winde up with a small tail which in my opinnion is not good for flat base boolits...better on hollow base boolits as you can trim the tail and push it into the hollow base area.

hope this helps a bit and know that im still experimenting with all this and i find that the wet approach is working better for me...but when im experimenting with a new boolit or paper thickness then ill roll a few dry to see what is possible...i even shoot them as rolled dry and dont have any problems in the least.

[Catch]

bigted.....How much overhang do you have at the base when you roll the patch on? I missed the spit part on my first attempts............I will try your way and hope for the best. I bet your way is fast once you learn to do it. Are you patching 30 cal. or larger? Your way sounds like it would be good for a 45 or a bullet with some weight. I had been twisting a tail on mine and cutting them off when dry and hard (wet rolling) then when I coated them with alox (Lee) and sized them the base was pushed flat by the sizing die. I tried some with a 1/8 overhang and used cork and paper wads with a drop of glue. They shot about the same. Now I am trying the dry thing. Thanks for the help. I,m having a hell of alot of fun..................Catch

[DIRT Farmer]

I to dry patch, in a barrel that I finaly found some sucess with a grease groove at 0.321, a #4 Enfield. I am using a 311-291 sized to 0.309 ( know it's to big I think-mabay ) with the patch from the nose ogive to enough to twist into a tail lubed with every thing I could think of to try, but JPW seems to work best. The case is unsized and using wheat bran to fill the case. The best result has been with IMR 4064. The load works decent to fifty yards, but sprays at 100.
I'm still playing, I work with it for a while then lay it down. The wraping tech I use is the same I used when I twisted smokes, but the edge is left dry. It stays togather fine to load, I just can't get it past 50 yds. I tried wet wraping to with simular results.