Need suggestions to improve my cast 308 groups.

[joshf]

Im pretty new to casting and brand new to casting for rifles.

Ok not sure what info is pertinent so Ill give it all.

Cheap savage edge 308 with simmons pro hunter 3-9.

Seems to really like lighter bullets.

1 inch 10 shot group with hornady 110 vmax over imr 4064.

3 inch 5 shot group counting one flier with sierra 125 gr hp

5 inch 10 shot group with milsurp 147 grain fmj.

As you can see the heavier I got the worse it shot.

So for the cast I tried lee c312-155-2r water dropped wheel weights and a little solder. They are sized to .309,gas checked and lubed before and after sizing with a mixture of LLA, Lee case lube and hoppes #9 for a thinning agent.
Most weighed between 156.1 and 156.8

These are loaded in some R&P brass ove 35 gr of BLC2.

The good news is no leading of the barrel and they hit the target point first.
The bad news is a 5 shot group of about 6 inches and a 10 shot group of about 8.

This is a pretty light load. Should I try speeding them up? ( I would like higher velocity as I intend to hunt with these)Different powder,Different mold or different lube?
Im using lee dies and a lee universal case mouth flaring die. Should I switch to a lyman m die?


Any and all tips will be greatly appreciated. I am really not sure where to start.

[Jeffrey]

How bad was the wind? You'd be surprised how much wind affects boolit flight. Was the rifle shot from a rest? If so, what part of the rifle was on the forward support - forestock or barrell. Barrells whip on firing. Anything touching the barrell on firing can affect groups.
A little work on primer pockets does wonders for accuracy:
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&newcategorydimensionid=11892
Uniforming the inside of the primer pocket (flash hole wall face) will add consistancy to primer seating, firing pin strike, primer ignition. Deburring the inside of the flash hole will make primer flash and therefore powder ignition more consistant. The best thing is, these operations need be done only once in the life of a piece of brass.

[williamwaco]

.309 is way too small.

Try .310, or .311.

If you don't have the die, or can't borrow one, try them as-cast ( but lubed).



.

[swheeler]

First ditch the Simmons scope(or check the action screws, scope mount screws, ring screws- something is wrong) then ditch the BL C2 and try some Unique(or 4759, 5744,2400) just to find out how it will shoot.

[canyon-ghost]

First ditch the Simmons scope(or check the action screws, scope mount screws, ring screws- something is wrong) then ditch the BL C2 and try some Unique(or 4759, 5744,2400) just to find out how it will shoot.

However brutally honest that is, I'd think that too. Unless your simmons is absolutely clear, I'd not keep it. 5744 is going to be very fast but, it's a good powder. SR 4759 is slower but does a dandy job on rifle cartridges. Unique is fast yet mild.

[rockrat]

In my 308, I shoot a heavier boolit, closer to 200gr, sized .311" over Varget, 36gr, and lubed with a better lube, think Caranuba Red quality.
Maybe BAC/CR in a 3/1 ratio,

2200fps and groups an inch or less.

Try the Lee 170gr fp, or if you can, find a lyman 311041 or RCBS 30-180fp, I think you might be a bit happier. Coat your boolits in your lube mix but thin it even more, then , if you don't have a lubrisizer, pan lube them with the CR. and size/check them.

Try the universal expanding die first, but it is really just a flare die. See if the results are to your liking.


As always, work up your loads, as your chamber/throat dimensions may be radically different than my guns

[Bret4207]

Josh, you need to start at the beginning- absolutely clean barrel, boolits sized for your throat, forget the water quenching stuff, get a real lube and if you intend to hunt with these then get a FN design. It look s to me like you are starting in the middle of the progression. Start aiming for 16-1700 fps and work from there.

[Blammer]

Do not change anything on your rifle, or scope set up.

You've proven it works fine with your 1" groups with the vmax and the other group with the sierra's.

You will want to only change one variable at a time. Don't start changing your rifle if your ammo is not up to par.

First I would try the powder charges, load in incremental and test.

I would change your boolit diameter next.

I guess I'll be the stick in the mud and say I've had great use of simmon's scopes and still use them to shoot fine groups and hunt with.

I too will say that I have found it unnecessary to 'scrub' the barrel clean prior to shooting lead boolits. I have several rifles I interchange jwords and boolits regularly with no loss of accuracy.

[popper]

Just because you have GC and water dropped doesn't mean that you have a LIGHT load. Is BLC2 the only powder you've tried? Drop the load for 20% less fps and see what happens to the accuracy. Why Hoppe's for thinner? Nothing wrong with the rifle or scope.

[mpmarty]

My best load in my Savage 308 is the 170gr LEE flat point lubed with 50/50 LLA/JPW and light loads of Red Dot. Never got BLC-2 to work worth a darn. For higher velocity I find that 2400 and RL7 work well too.

[StratsMan]

I'm not a Cast Boolit hunting guru, but it sounds like you're trying to apply jacketed thinking to cast boolits; but that's wrong thinking.... Jacketed bullets usually rely on velocity to mushroom and dump energy. Successful cast boolit hunters take advantage of slow boolits with large, flat tips (meplat) that plow through and create big wound channels without upsetting their shape...

If you want to hunt with cast, learn from the guys who do it every year; don't assume that the rules of jacketed hunting are the same here, Grasshopper...

[1Shirt]

Suggest you listen to the advice that Bret has given, as it is very sound. Also, suggest you go with at least .310, better probably with .311. Suggest also that you get a lyman manual if you don't have one. Read it, then re-read it, and start with starting loads and work up.
1Shirt!

[joshf]

Thank you to everyone. there is a wealth of information. Ill have to try.
For today I did try sizing to .311 instead of .309 and that cut groups to the size of the groups.

A 5 shot group strung to the right from center across the 7,8,and 9, ring. Better than the milsurp stuff.
I ran some of my cast through the .314 sizer to crimp on the gas checks. The bullet was not touched but the gas check was crimped on nicely. I may try those to see if there is any improvement.


Changing the scope is not an option at this point in time. But yeah it is not nearly as clear as I would like. But better than most 50 dollar scopes I looked at.

When the weather clears up I will start over a little slower and see what kind of groups I can get.

thanks again

[Larry Gibson]

joshf

As mentioned by Bret start from the beginning.

Don't ditch the scope as it is fine as Blammer mentions.

You don't mention the 125 Sierra load but the 147 FMJs are not capable of the same accuacy at the 110 and 125 commercial J bullets. Making a judgement that groups "As you can see the heavier I got the worse it shot" is erroneous.

BLC2 is a very poor powder for reduced loads with cast bullets, especially lighter weight cast bullets like your 156 gr one. The "bad news is a 5 shot group of about 6 inches and a 10 shot group of about 8" demonstrates that quite effectively plus you were driving that bullet too fast for accuracy in the 10" twist of your Savage. Someone mentioned keeping velocities in the 1600 - 1800 fps range and they are correct. With your rifles 10" twist best accuracy will be in the 1600 - 1950 fps range depending on the cast bullet design and the powder used.

The Lee C312-15502R has a pretty long unsupported nose and does best in the 1600 - 1800 fps range. Suggest you try 2400, 4227, 4759, 4198 or 5744 with that light weight bullet in your 10" twist Savage. Start at 16 gr with all of them and work up in 1 gr increments using a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler stopping when accuracy goes south. If you've a chronograph use it. You can then tweek the load +/- 1/2 gr in either direction looking for any improvement.

Continue to size at .311 as it is probably the best sizing for that bullet. Make sure the GCs are seated to the bottom of the shanks. A double application of straight LLA as per the instructions should work with that bullet at that velocity range. Your alloy should be fine. Forget water quenching and let them air cool and harden for 10+ days before using. Use well fire formed cases that are neck sized and use a Lyman .31 M- die.

You could probably use the search engine for .308W and come up with information overload.

Larry Gibson.

[runfiverun]

see larry's third paragraph. ^^^^^^^

a deer will not be wearing armor plating at any time during the hunting season i promise.

just put 17 grs of 2400 under a water dropped ww and soft lead mix alloy, put on your gas check in a 309-310 sizer die.
and go shoot stuff.

[Duckdog]

You didn't say if these groups were all at once . and if so, if the barrel coolded down enough. Savage makes a fine rifle, but I had a 7mm that would only shoot good groups right away, and then only if the barrel was nice and cool.

Also, did you use mag primers with the BL(c)-2? Makes a big difference! I use it for reduced loads in a 7.62x39 and with mag primers, you wont get the little bit of delay in ignition that alway happens with that powder andf light loads.

[HangFireW8]

If heavy bullets (or boolits) always group poorly, the issue may be recoil related. That might mean one of: bedding, scope mount, rings, or scope. Something shifting that doesn't shift with lighter projectiles.

I, personally, have had scopes that worked fine on lighter recoiling rifles and went to pot on heavier recoiling rifles- and then back to good on the light recoilling again. I've had rifles that had scope mounts shift on occasion. I've had rifles that shot good groups in different places, shifting at random times- bedding problems.

I've been through the wringer with cheap scopes and always seek to eliminate them as a source of inaccuracy. You don't need to get rid of it first- first, try shooting the square with it, using your most accurate load. If it bottoms out on adjustment in any direction making shooting the square impossible, it is poorly mounted, and needs to be mounted centered. This may involve custom mount work, milling the mounts. Once mounted to use its full range of adjustment, does it shoot the square OK? Or does it catch up after a few shots? Or does it shoot tighter groups in some corners than others?

Other checks- if you push on the scope (mount test) or the barrel (bedding test), does the rifle being grouping on a different center?

As for bedding- I'm not familiar with the Edge per se, but I've rarely met a factory rifle that couldn't be improved.

All this can be done without tossing the scope and getting something more expensive- just leave that option open.

HF

[swheeler]

Im pretty new to casting and brand new to casting for rifles.

Ok not sure what info is pertinent so Ill give it all.

Cheap savage edge 308 with simmons pro hunter 3-9.

Seems to really like lighter bullets.

1 inch 10 shot group with hornady 110 vmax over imr 4064.

3 inch 5 shot group counting one flier with sierra 125 gr hp
5 inch 10 shot group with milsurp 147 grain fmj.
As you can see the heavier I got the worse it shot.

So for the cast I tried lee c312-155-2r water dropped wheel weights and a little solder. They are sized to .309,gas checked and lubed before and after sizing with a mixture of LLA, Lee case lube and hoppes #9 for a thinning agent.
Most weighed between 156.1 and 156.8

These are loaded in some R&P brass ove 35 gr of BLC2.

The good news is no leading of the barrel and they hit the target point first.
The bad news is a 5 shot group of about 6 inches and a 10 shot group of about 8.

This is a pretty light load. Should I try speeding them up? ( I would like higher velocity as I intend to hunt with these)Different powder,Different mold or different lube?
Im using lee dies and a lee universal case mouth flaring die. Should I switch to a lyman m die?


Any and all tips will be greatly appreciated. I am really not sure where to start.

Some here will tell you everything is fine BUT 3" 5 shot groups and 5" ten shot groups just don't fit my definition of fine with any bullet jacketed or cast, maybe for some but not for me. Someone even says that the 3" five shot group with the Sieera bullets proves the scope is fine????????????????? Well yes if you are shooting at 300 yards:kidding:

[303Guy]

I'd try that load again but with Dacron filler and sized to .311 or bigger. Also being careful that the case mouth is not compressing the boolits. There are other fillers too - I've heard good reports on plastic shot filler/buffer. In short, I'd keep trying a few variables with that load before trying something else. If you doubt the scope you could always borrow a laser sight to check it against.

You mention the groups opening up with heavier bullets. Could it be the bedding of the rifle? The heavier the bullet the faster the pressure rise and the greater the effects of poor bedding. Just a thought. A good bedding won't do any harm.

[blackthorn]

HangFireW8---Would you please explain to me what "shooting the square" entails? That is an expression I have never heard before. Thanks.

[HangFireW8]

HangFireW8---Would you please explain to me what "shooting the square" entails? That is an expression I have never heard before. Thanks.

Sure. Get a sight-in target with a grid pattern. Shoot a small group at the bullseye with your most accurate load. Let the barrel cool as needed throughout the test.

Adjust the scope windage and elevation to shoot the upper right corner, shoot until the group settles in one place. Then repeat for the other three corners of the square. Make all adjustments based on what the scope is supposed to move. Mark the original group on the target and finish by repeating the bullseye group.

You'll learn a lot about your scope. That 1/4" increment at 100 yards might be 1/8 in one corner and 1/2 in another. The windage and elevation may have different ideas about what one clicks worth of adjustment is.

If you ever wonder what the difference between a 50$ scope and a 500$ scope is, this is part of the difference.

HF

[mpmarty]

So you did your homework and bought a scope.
Congratulations. Lets see if it is as good as the copywriters claimed it was:
1. Mount it carefully on your rifle.
2. Pick some known good ammo.
3. Fire three shots from a solid rest.
4. Put the rifle back in the rest and while looking through the scope move the rifle gently until the crosshairs or whatever the aiming point is points at your original point of aim. Now without moving the rifle turn the windage and elevation knobs to move the crosshairs to the actual point of impact. You have now “zeroed” your scope.
5. Fire a few rounds to verify that it shoots where it looks and if necessary repeat the above until you're happy with the zero.
6. OK lets see how good your scope really is, we will now “box” your scope. Here's how:

BOXING A SCOPE
1. Assuming the scope is zeroed at a hundred yards.
2. Move the elevation knob up by one minute of angle.
1. If your scope is said to have quarter minute clicks that means four clicks.
3. move the windage knob left by one minute of angle
4. Fire a group of three or more shots
5. move the windage knob two minutes of angle right
6. fire a group of three or more shots
7. move the elevation knob down two minutes of angle
8. fire a group of three or more shots
9. move the windage knob left two minutes of angle
10. fire a group of three or more shots.
Your target should now be composed of five groups of shots forming a square with the first (zero) group in the middle. If so move the elevation up one minute of angle and windage right one moa. You should be back at initial zero. How'd it work? This little test tells you how accurate the adjustment mechanisms are on your scope and reflects on its quality of design and construction.

If you shoot like I do and wind up with a shotgun pattern in the above test, just double all the moves to open up the box large enough to see what the scope is doing.

Good shooting my friends.

[Char-Gar]

Im pretty new to casting and brand new to casting for rifles.

Ok not sure what info is pertinent so Ill give it all.

Cheap savage edge 308 with simmons pro hunter 3-9.

Seems to really like lighter bullets.

1 inch 10 shot group with hornady 110 vmax over imr 4064.

3 inch 5 shot group counting one flier with sierra 125 gr hp

5 inch 10 shot group with milsurp 147 grain fmj.

As you can see the heavier I got the worse it shot.

So for the cast I tried lee c312-155-2r water dropped wheel weights and a little solder. They are sized to .309,gas checked and lubed before and after sizing with a mixture of LLA, Lee case lube and hoppes #9 for a thinning agent.
Most weighed between 156.1 and 156.8

These are loaded in some R&P brass ove 35 gr of BLC2.

The good news is no leading of the barrel and they hit the target point first.
The bad news is a 5 shot group of about 6 inches and a 10 shot group of about 8.

This is a pretty light load. Should I try speeding them up? ( I would like higher velocity as I intend to hunt with these)Different powder,Different mold or different lube?
Im using lee dies and a lee universal case mouth flaring die. Should I switch to a lyman m die?


Any and all tips will be greatly appreciated. I am really not sure where to start.

Those numbers don't make sense to me as their is no reason for a Savage rifle to do that. There is something wrong as the basic level.

1. Screws (rifle and/or scope mount) not tight
2. Bad shooting
3. Trying to draw too much information from just one or two groups.

The long and short of it is worrying about which bullet and load is not your problem. There is something more basic going on.

[mpmarty]

+1 on Char Gar post above. Unless a typhoon is blowing my Savage will put any boolit with any sane load into less than 2" at a hundred yards all day long, cast, jword, even round balls.

[HangFireW8]

+1 on Char Gar post above.
Yeah, I think Char-Gar is right, something is wrong on a basic level, and it might be as simple as reading too much into too few groups, or something loose as I also said. That's why I wanted to eliminate the scope as a variable.



Unless a typhoon is blowing my Savage will put any boolit with any sane load into less than 2" at a hundred yards all day long, cast, jword, even round balls.

I have a Savage bolt action as well, and while it is as accurate as yours with most loads, there are a few sane loads that it will sling at well over 2MOA. At least it did before glass bedding it.

HF

[swheeler]

Those numbers don't make sense to me as their is no reason for a Savage rifle to do that. There is something wrong as the basic level.1. Screws (rifle and/or scope mount) not tight
2. Bad shooting
3. Trying to draw too much information from just one or two groups.

The long and short of it is worrying about which bullet and load is not your problem. There is something more basic going on.

concur:drinks:

[Larry Gibson]

[/COLOR]

concur:drinks:

Sure is, he is pushing that cast bullet way too fast.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Sure is, he is pushing that cast bullet way too fast.

Larry Gibson

Larry; I am talking about his jacketed groups as an INDICATOR something is wrong. THREE inch 5 shot groups with ANY Sierra bullet sends a red flag up for me. As for the 147 fmj shooting 5 inch groups at 100, that doesn't sound right to me either. Now I am well aware that they are not very accurate bullets-QC leaves a lot to be desired- but I got 1k of them several years back(from Dan Johnson IIRC) put about half of them through 1 308 rifle and gave up on them(used them in another 308 and 06 for plinking) They were shooting 4.5 inch groups AT 300 YARDS terrible! I was trying to save the guy some frustration in trying to get a cast load to shoot. I stand by my recommend to check action/scope mount screws-THAT SHOULD BE DONE ON ANY NEW RIFLE- as to Simmons scopes I've owned a half dozen- I CURRENTLY OWN NONE:veryconfu that how my eyes always felt after looking through one!As to using Ball C lot #2(I still use a wc846 heavy cast/dacron hunting load) for a "rookies' cast bullet powder, that would be one of my last choices to recommend for someone starting out light cast and having no filler experience. Now as to your recommended powders, GOOD recommends, you added 2 to my list. Save the BLC2 for the jacketed loads in the 308 it's excellent in that application.

I guess what I should have said to the OP was "prove the rifle CAN shoot." As for as the ditch the Simmons scope remark, that was uncalled for because he will figure that one out for himself:mrgreen:

[swheeler]

Sure is, he is pushing that cast bullet way too fast.Larry Gibson

I don't believe that to be exactly correct IF FIT IS CORRECT FOR HIS RIFLE. I do agree that is not where to start looking for a noobe though(but he would have better luck trying for those speeds with a different powder). 35 grs of BLC2 and a 155 gr cast would be around 2-2.1 K fps, fast? not really. I would bet the cases are sooted from stem to stern and extreme spreads are from here to China, probably a few delays/hangfires too. Like I said, check screws, check scope prove rifle will shoot and choose a powder that will burn efficiently at reduced loading(16-1800 is fine)= IMPROVED ODDS OF BEING SUCCESSFUL

[Larry Gibson]

1 inch 10 shot group with hornady 110 vmax over imr 4064.

3 inch 5 shot group counting one flier with sierra 125 gr hp

5 inch 10 shot group with milsurp 147 grain fmj.

swheeler

Above is what the OP reports. The accuracy with the 110 V max is good. Sierra's 125 HP is a FN made for the 30-30. My experience with that bullet in 10" twist barrel is accuracy goes south aroung 2800+ fps because of the thin jacket, something like pushing .224 SXs to fast in 10" twist or faster barrels. As to the 147 FMJs I have seen some very good groups witth some and a lot worse accuracy with others. Some of the milsurp FMJs are made well, some are made poorly so that accuracy doesn't surprise me. I've some 150 gr Yugo M2 milsurps that I'd be happy if they'd do 5" groups. If it was with Hornady 150 FMJs I would question it also.

35 grs of BLC2 and a 155 gr cast would be around 2-2.1 K fps, fast? not really.

In a 10" twist it is indeed too fast. The short bearing surface (about 1/3 the length of the bullet) and long ogive of that bullets bore riding nose (about 2/3 of the length) make it not a good bullet to push above 1900 fps or so in a 10" twist barrel. If one is experienced and cast bullet shooting at HV then one can push that bullet a little higher. However, you used the word "noob" here so "experienced" is not the case.

Also I doubt that that charge of BL2 is burning efficiently, especially w/o a dacron filler, and no doubt has a very large ES. I'd bet on the sooted cases also which is a very good indication ignition and burning efficiency is poor.

I've absolutely no disagreement with "Like I said, check screws, check scope prove rifle will shoot and choose a powder that will burn efficiently at reduced loading(16-1800 is fine)= IMPROVED ODDS OF BEING SUCCESSFUL" and concur 100+%.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Larry; I think we agree. As you can tell I am not a big fan of Simmons scopes, but I did misspeak, I've still got a couple on 22's:( I do believe I've had more failed Simmons than Tasco, but I do try to run if anyone tries to hand me either. :)

Personally I would want that rifle to shoot 1moa or under with good jacketed ammo of 150-180 grs, then I would start looking for same accuracy with cast. Opinions, you know what they say about them, what I posted was just mine.:)

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, we certainly do agree. Had a fairly good Simmons air rifle scope (4x12) on a .22LR Rem M504 undtill the wife broke the elevation knob off (that's another story and we shant go there). Sent it to the Simmons repair in Florida and it got sent back to resend it to Bushnell in the midwest. They could/wouldn't fix it and sent me a new Bushnell 4x12 DOA 600 to replace it.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

scott,
i am seeing the same thing larry is.
inexperience.
trying to make lead a substitute for jaxketed.
and no quality baseline loads to judge from.
that's why i gave him a known, good,accurate load to work with.

[swheeler]

scott,
i am seeing the same thing larry is.
inexperience.
trying to make lead a substitute for jaxketed.
and no quality baseline loads to judge from.
that's why i gave him a known, good,accurate load to work with.

That's probably going to save him more time than anything, if 17 of 2400 won't shoot for him he needs to look elsewhere. I just wanted the OP to move away from 60% load density without a filler and BLC2, not best odds for success for anyone, didn't want him to get discouraged out of the gate. We need more cast shooters, boolits might be the only thing available if the election goes the way I'm afraid it will[smilie=b:

[runfiverun]

i'm with you on the election thing..