What did fluxing do for me?

[Chilly]

Guys,

I smelted down maybe 100 lb of range scrap from an indoor range sand berm. Scrap was of course composed of lead, copper, and sand. I occasionally used some parafin if the feeling hit me. Surely I didn't flux enough to be considered properly fluxed, whatever that means. My immediate purpose was to convert a filthy bucket of scrap into ingots for storage.

I read Chapter 4 of that on-line book that is often referenced so I think I have a basic understanding of what it's supposed to be doing for me. figured I'd re-smelt and flux with wood chips since that seems popular. Frankly, I see no difference. What am I gaining by this fluxing? If I understand correctly it should be allowing tin oxide to go back into solution as tin. How do I know my tin came OUT of solution? Nothing looks different to me. Could it be that my range lead doesn't have enough tin to make fluxing worthwhile?

Also, I intend to cast a 12-ga slug that by all accounts performs well with pure lead. It's shaped like an air rifle pellet so I'm supposing the skirt is intended to blow out to seal the bore. Maybe softer is better for such an application. If ALL my tin floated off as tin oxide maybe I wouldn't care?

So why am I heating W. PA with my lead melter?

Thanks,
Chilly

[HDS]

You know I can't tell the difference between a bullet with a little tin and a lot of tin, until I actually test what BHN it has, not that tin is that great at hardening it until you are adding a lot of it... Tin makes the lead fill out in the mold better for me.

Nor can I see that the smelt looks any different with or without tin in it. I guess a bullet with more tin would also be a bit lighter.

[gbrown]

First, I'm not an expert, I don't live or work in D.C. I'm not sure I should be posting this. I have been told by long time casters (each 40+ years) that the temperature is critical. Do you know at what temperature you were smelting? When you get over 700 degrees, you might see a shiny, silvery sheen or film on top of the alloy. That is tin separating out. Wood chips/sawdust is applied to the top of the melt and allowed to burn (some use a butane charcoal lighter or match to help it) to black--carbon. The carbon is then mixed into the melt which helps the tin go back into alloy. The carbon prevents the oxidation/separation of the tin. There are others with a lot more experience than I have who will gladly assist you.

[captaint]

You can look at the trash you scooped out of your melt. Does it look like metal of some kind?? If so, it's either lead or lead and tin. Try using DRY sawdust for fluxing. It's cheap (free) and does a very good job. Let it blacken on top of the pot, then stir the heck out of it. Then when it's time to scoop out the trash, be careful just to take the trash out. You might also scrape the sides and bottom of your smelting pot, but keep stirring good and often. That's what I do. enjoy Mike

[Chilly]

Don't have a thermometer. I fluxed the second time with pine hamster bedding. I let it burn up then stir the junk up, though I wondered exactly how well one can actually stir boyant charcoal into heavy lead. Sometimes the charcoal lifts up some shiny junk which seems to air quench because it's riding on the charcoal. I can either scoop it out with the ash or not. Honestly, I feel like I'm going through a ritual here because I see no difference either way. If I wanted to scoop off the floaty oxide trash I can do that. If I want to stir until I'm just lifting off the ash I can do that too.

I guess I'll flux it when I cast because I can't see using the 'leckrisitee to flux the ingots I already have poured. And if the slugs fill the mould OK as-is I'm not going to fuss about it. Like I said, reports are the slug performs best as dead-soft lead anyhow.

Chilly

[gbrown]

NOE and Rotometals both sell thermometers. 30-ish if I'm not mistaken. Cast your metal--old saw--"The proof is in the pudding"

[runfiverun]

getting the charcoal inside the alloy is kinda difficult,unless you are using a stick that is charring from the heat.
adding an oxygen free barrier to the mix is what returns the oxides back into the melt.
tin will show itself as a gold color on top of your alloy.

[Longwood]

I use sawdust along with paraffin.
As the wood is burning down, I stir and scrape the sides of my pot with a wood handled spoon that I ground flats on the end and one side of.
I rub the hot spoon on a piece of paraffin and even dip up some as it pools and add it to my casting pot.
I have found that I can dip the spoon down into the melt when the spoon is wet with the paraffin and that takes the paraffin down into the melt where it is clear that it is doing good.
Oddly it does not seem to make the lead pop and spit like water does, but it sure makes it boil which seems to help bring up the slag a lot better.
I also made a couple of small ladles from a dowel and a stainless one ounce measuring spoon and little larger one with a condiment cup that I dip up quantities of the lead too pour back into the melt which also seems to help a lot with reduxing.

[DLCTEX]

Stir with a dry wooden stick to flux. It is good to keep all the tin you can to help with fillout. Tin doesn't do much to harden boolits by itself, but antimony and arsenic does. Depending on whether the range allowed cast to be used your scrap may not have much tin, antimony, or arsenic in it.

[Defcon-One]

....Surely I didn't flux enough to be considered properly fluxed.....

I don't know why you'd expect to see a difference if that is your opinion of your process.

If you did it right you will have much cleaner lead in your ingots and a powdery dross with very little metal content, other than the copper!

Or maybe you did do it wrong!

Fluxing works great for me, especially when I use white pine sawdust. I can see it in the melted lead more than in the ingots, but it does make a big difference when done properly!

[btroj]

Smelted a bit of lead pipe win some mo other added today. Had no sawdus so I added some walnut shell instead.
Before I added the walnut shell I had lumpy dross on the surface, after adding the walnut I had no dross, just some dry, smoldering trash on the surface.

I consider this a very successful fluxing. It isn't magic, it isn't a miracle, it just works.

[gbrown]

Any organic material will turn to carbon. Think about the old, expended polishing material you use, and dispose of. I don't know what chemicals may be in it, but that would probably work, if used outside. I live in S.E. TX and rice milling is still big around here. I just got a 50# bag of rice hulls for $4.00 to try. Also picked up a bag of 2 or 2.5 cubic feet of cypress mulch at Home Depot ($2.30) to try. It's rough chopped with big pieces--still should do what I want. I was told the other day by an old time caster 40 years+ that rosin or pine pitch is the ideal flux. Cypress is a conifer, also, so the oils in it should be close to pine.

[badbob454]

once i get my lead poured into ingots i dont look back ,i drop em in ol drippy add some tin and make bullets .. i dont try to re flux , waste of time the first fluxing 's dross will have some lead tin oxide in it , save up the old dross and re heat it .. maybe save some lead /tin that way ...as you stated the electricity is expensive cant save much melting and fluxing twice

[Chilly]

Well, my first smelting didn't drag off much silvery dross at all, mostly sand and copper. And I only used parafin occasionally, maybe once every three ingots I poured (probably six or seven five heaping tablespoons of range trash per ingot). I scooped out a LOT of junk and hardly anything silver. So I can't think I dragged out much lead or tin. Are you guys saying if I can smelt range trash without dragging off silver dross I'm adequately fluxed?

[btroj]

Pretty much. If some lead stocks to the jackets that is acceptable. I flux once after the lead has melted.
From what you said I think you fluxed adequately.

[reddoggm]

Ok I got a question for you guys when I,m melting Iv,e usualy got about 30lbs in my pot how much sawdust should I use for a good 1st flux?

[letsmeltlead2693]

What's the difference between fluxing with wax and fluxing with sawdust? How do you know you fluxed properly? Does the wax have to flare up for a few seconds? How do you properly flux?

[canyon-ghost]

Fluxing is the addition of any hydrocarbon into the molten lead. Burning down parafin only makes the impurities easier to skim off. Sawdust or wood is a hydrocarbon (with considerably more carbon). Fluxing is meant to be stirred in once or twice then skimmed.

You should try a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (4th edition just came out).

[reddoggm]

Must be a dumb question I asked in my post above the reason I was asking is because I read somewhere on the web somebody claimed to have put a 1/2 cup in a 10lb mix sounded like an awfull lot to me Guess I,ll keep using my Frankford Lead Flux cost $ but seems to work OK

[Sasquatch-1]

I just got a 50# bag of rice hulls for $4.00 to try. Also picked up a bag of 2 or 2.5 cubic feet of cypress mulch at Home Depot ($2.30) to try. It's rough chopped with big pieces--still should do what I want.

If those cypress chips are too big, you may check out walmart or yard sales and see if you can pick up a cheap food processer. It should grind up your chips pretty good. I picked up a processer on Black Firday a few years ago for about $35.00. This is just an idea I have never tried it and could burn out the motor real quick.

[Sasquatch-1]

I have another question that kind of goes with this thread. A lot of times after fluxing I come up with a grayish dross. I have tried heating it with a propane torch directly and all I can get ti to do is glow a nice pretty orange. Any idea what this stuff is?

[btroj]

A light gray wash or film over the surface of the leads oxides of the metals in our alloy. Could be a sign of too much heat. I find this forms quickly when smelting. I don't skim it off, I just keep pouring ingots. If it gets into the ingots I don't worry.
To me the key to smelting is getting the dirt, grease, and other "chunks" of stuff we don't want out of our lead.

[Sasquatch-1]

I have another question that kind of goes with this thread. A lot of times after fluxing I come up with a grayish dross. I have tried heating it with a propane torch directly and all I can get ti to do is glow a nice pretty orange. Any idea what this stuff is?

I should have mentioned more with this post. The dross is thick and rough in texture, yes it may even resemble oatmeal a bit. When hit with a hammer (after cooled of course) it compresses like a metal with some flaking. As stated above when heated with a torch the best I can do is get it to glow.

[dmize]

Must be a dumb question I asked in my post above the reason I was asking is because I read somewhere on the web somebody claimed to have put a 1/2 cup in a 10lb mix sounded like an awfull lot to me Guess I,ll keep using my Frankford Lead Flux cost $ but seems to work OK
That sounds about right,I probably do 20 lbs in a pot and I throw a couple handfulls in,I dont think you can "over do it" regardless it will burn off and leave the ash. I had to re read your pot,you sure as hell dont want to put 1/2 cup parafine on it.
And I use the Frankford stuff in my casting pot,seems to work really well.

[kbstenberg]

Reddoggm for me I completely cover the surface of whatever I am smelting. A. It keeps the heat in the melt. B. It keeps your tin an antimony from separating. C. When stirring you have more charred material to work into your melt. D. Mine is free in my dust collector.
if I am not mistaken the OP made 2 mistakes in his opening question. Tin is lighter than lead. So by keeping the tin content in his melt the bullets that he casts would be lighter with a higher % of tin.
If he doesn't flux when he is smelting his ingots will have more impurities in them. If he is using a bottom pour pot. his spout will get plugged more often an to a worse degree with influxes ingots then the fluxed ones. You won't see a difference at smelting time. But you sure will at bullet pouring time.
this is just my 2 cents and what you paid for it Kevin

[btroj]

I should have mentioned more with this post. The dross is thick and rough in texture, yes it may even resemble oatmeal a bit. When hit with a hammer (after cooled of course) it compresses like a metal with some flaking. As stated above when heated with a torch the best I can do is get it to glow.

Ok, that is not what I thought you meant. You have a lumpy, grainy dross. That os antimony and some tin. You want that in the melt. I see lots of that when I add monotype to any alloy. Flux with some. Sawdust and stir well. Should melt in pretty well. Make take a few times to get it all in. I just a small handful of sawdust for a Dutch over full of alloy when smelling. Let it smoke some before stirring, this makes sure it is good and dry. A good stirring also includes trying to get some of the sawdust under the surface of the melt.

[Sasquatch-1]

Ok, that is not what I thought you meant. You have a lumpy, grainy dross. That os antimony and some tin. You want that in the melt. I see lots of that when I add monotype to any alloy. Flux with some. Sawdust and stir well. Should melt in pretty well. Make take a few times to get it all in. I just a small handful of sawdust for a Dutch over full of alloy when smelling. Let it smoke some before stirring, this makes sure it is good and dry. A good stirring also includes trying to get some of the sawdust under the surface of the melt.

That's the point, this stuff doesn't melt. I put a propane torch flame directly on it and the best I can do is get it to glow orange. I do tend to recover a few grains of usable metal when I first put the torch to it. but the rest usually ends up in the trash. Just trying to figure out what it is.

[letsmeltlead2693]

Could be Sb or lead dross such as lead oxide.

[Chilly]

if I am not mistaken the OP made 2 mistakes in his opening question. Tin is lighter than lead. So by keeping the tin content in his melt the bullets that he casts would be lighter with a higher % of tin.
If he doesn't flux when he is smelting his ingots will have more impurities in them. If he is using a bottom pour pot. his spout will get plugged more often an to a worse degree with influxes ingots then the fluxed ones. You won't see a difference at smelting time. But you sure will at bullet pouring time.
this is just my 2 cents and what you paid for it Kevin

I know tin is lighter than lead. Please detail my two mistakes so that I may learn. What impurities are heavier than lead that would end up in my ingots when I use my bottom-pour pot for smelting?