What causes this kind of hole in the target?

[Whistler]

Today I shot some H&G #68 (Mimek) from my S&W Model 625 .45ACP.

I have shot many thousands of rounds with RN boolits through this revolver and I've used a lot of the H&G 68 in my 1911, but never the #68 in the 625 before.

What causes this?

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5764/20120304122115.jpg

The load was 4.1gn of Bullseye with OAL 1.250" and Speer .45 ACP cases.
Alloy was water quenched WW and they were sized to .453".

[Bret4207]

Was there a staple under the paper right there? That's the only thing I can think of.

[bonza]

Are you sure you weren't shooting Cherry Bombs!! Very unusual, never seen anything like that.

[Dennis Eugene]

Looks like nothing but air behind the target? If so that rules out any foreign object behind target, could it be lube spinning off boolit? Dennis

[GP100man]

Total speculation here , a ruff land or crown pulling some alloy from the boolit & as the base exits it`s blown out to the side .

It may take very close inspection to find it .

I like Dennis` theory better , what lube do ya use ???

What distance ???

I have`nt had coffee yet !!!

[Bambeno]

You could try shooting a few of the same bullets sized but not lubed then a few lubed ones to see if it is a inflight lube seperation problem. What lube are you using?

[44man]

Looks like a GC hole. Do they have checks? Are they loose on the base?

[btroj]

Maybe the bullets are doing that in protest of them being in the white?:kidding:

I doubt it is lube related. Of it was then I would expect to also see a few bits or globs of lube on the paper.

Not a GC bullet so that is out.

Interesting. Very interesting.

[30CAL-TEXAN]

Could it be caused by staples from old targets behind the new one?

Does it do it all the time or just those two?

[44fanatic]

Im clueless and have no knowledge on what could be causing it...but...

Is there a possibility that the boolit is grabbing lead out of the grooves?

[Old Iron Sights]

Your bullets are hitting the paper too slowly and the paper is tearing. Just kidding. My first thought would be that it's the paper just tearing but it definitely looks impact related upon closer inspection.

[ku4hx]

What you have are very fertile loads.

[adrians]

three of your four tail fins fell off your rocket propelled boolits [smilie=l:

[lbaize3]

Obviously Love Bugs hitching a ride....

[MtGun44]

What lube? Maybe a string of lube spun off the bullet but not disconnected. I have seen
lube chunks on the paper.

Definitely odd.

Bill

[Whistler]

Thanks for your replies, guys. Lots of humour as well, it is nice to be among such a friendly crowd! :)

* There were no gas checks involved.
* Behind the target is just empty air, the holes were no where near the target stand.
* No staples at all, as you can see the center targets are slit and slides into the bigger target. * Distance was 15 yards, I was not hitting paper on 25 yards due to the Red Dot being newly mounted, so I had to go closer to find somewhere to adjust from.
* Lube is Carnauba Red.

After sighting in, this was next shot at 25 meters (27 yards), using the same gun and load with 6 shots:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1469/20120304123127.jpg

I have two theories of my own, both pretty similar.
* It could be that the oversize boolit is shaved when seating and that the small excess of lead sticks and acts as a tail.
* Or it could be that the well fitting boolit pushes off and sticks to some of the lead I had trouble getting out from the barrel from when shooting undersize boolits last week. They were .4515" and didn't like my .4525" throats.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Or it could be that the well fitting boolit pushes off and sticks to some of the lead I had trouble getting out from the barrel from when shooting undersize boolits last week.

this is my vote...expecially after your next bunch of shots show no "tails".
Jon

[stubert]

Is it all the holes, or is it random? If it's all shots I don't think it would pull lead the same way every time. If it was something attached to the boolit, it should be a radial tear from the projectile spinning, that looks like it went in straight. Try it with the target on a peice of backing to see if it may just be the paper tearing.

[Glen]

Hard lube, spinning out of the lube groove.

[44man]

Lost two feathers from the fletching! [smilie=l:

[Larry Gibson]

Hard lube, spinning out of the lube groove.

+another



That is a harder lube and I have seen that very "tail" many times (rifle and handgun cartridges, always with a harder lube. I believe felix or Waksupi mentioned this several times and got somewhat criticises for it. It does happen and this is a very good example of it. Probably relatively cold outside when shooting?

It is a good example also of why the harder lubes are most often not good to use with high velocity/high RPM loads as the lube spins of unevenly which unbalances the bullet and contributes to inaccuracy. We had a lengthy discussion regarding this some time back.

Larry Gibson

[Whistler]

Yes, it was right below freezing point outside.

[Dennis Eugene]

Yep hard lube spinning away. Very hard to get it to repeat and at further distance lube is already thrown off. Stubert radial tearing cannot happen in a sheet of paper that thin if a barrel has a twist of 1in 12, just an example, then it must travel 12 inches for one revolution therefor you would never notice the rev. while impacting paper. Dennis

[williamwaco]

I give up!

I sure wish you had a high speed camera.

I bet it never happens again.

.

[1Shirt]

You have hainted ammo for sure!
1Shirt!

[Longwood]

Yes, it was right below freezing point outside.

[smilie=s:Snot icicle, from the bullet's nose.

[gabe123]

In the old days it was thought that demons rode on the bullets and that is why they whined (when ricocheting). What you have there is proof of that theory.

[geargnasher]

Yes, it was right below freezing point outside.


Yep hard lube spinning away. Very hard to get it to repeat and at further distance lube is already thrown off. Stubert radial tearing cannot happen in a sheet of paper that thin if a barrel has a twist of 1in 12, just an example, then it must travel 12 inches for one revolution therefor you would never notice the rev. while impacting paper. Dennis

Correct. The boolit is not a jet turbine.


+another



That is a harder lube and I have seen that very "tail" many times (rifle and handgun cartridges, always with a harder lube. I believe felix or Waksupi mentioned this several times and got somewhat criticises for it. It does happen and this is a very good example of it. Probably relatively cold outside when shooting?

It is a good example also of why the harder lubes are most often not good to use with high velocity/high RPM loads as the lube spins of unevenly which unbalances the bullet and contributes to inaccuracy. We had a lengthy discussion regarding this some time back.

Larry Gibson

Larry has the answer. Lube tail. At 30 yards you might see lube ribbons on the paper. I NEVER use Carnauba Red below about 50 degrees because I start to get lube-related flyers. Cold barrel flyers due to lubricity issues, and warm barrel flyers due to erratic lube jettison at low velocities. I've seen holes like that on 100 yard targets that didn't group.

Carnauba Red is an EXCELLENT lube, but not for cold weather or low velocity in my experience. It's designed for really high-velocity or high-pressure situtations, which the .45 ACP is certainly not.

Switch to a softer lube like BAC or Lar's NRA 50/50 for that gun/boolit/weather combo and your problems will go away.

Gear

[runfiverun]

Carnauba Red is an EXCELLENT lube, but not for cold weather or low velocity in my experience. It's designed for really high-velocity or high-pressure situtations, which the .45 ACP is certainly not.

Switch to a softer lube like BAC or Lar's NRA 50/50 for that gun/boolit/weather combo and your problems will go away.

Gear

i concur with carnuba red being much better for the warm weather. [50*f and up]
but you have it and probably want to use it.
i modify my lube for winter/summer use, by using a viscosity modifier for the winter time.
atf [transmission fluid]@ a half teaspoon for a stick of lube and some lanolin, about
1/8 th teaspoon.
this will add flexibility and lower your viscosity, the atf softens the lube and makes it slicker.
mimicking the viscosity in the summer time.

[kappy]

Looks like a bit of lead shaving from leaving the barrel to me, but I have less insight than just about anyone else here.

[edsmith]

time to call in the ghost hunters.:bigsmyl2:

[geargnasher]

Looks like a bit of lead shaving from leaving the barrel to me, but I have less insight than just about anyone else here.

Lead shavings don't stick to boolits at 800 fps, or if they do, I've never seen one!

Gear

[44man]

Maybe a problem like I have too.
My dogs are always with me and if I drop a lubed boolit on the basement rug I get a real "hairball." :veryconfu Trying to pick it off just gets my fingers full of hair so a few loads grow tails! [smilie=s:

[1Shirt]

Agree with the comments on Can Red, and cold. Love the lube, but it doesn't like cold, or a cold bbl. Will settle down after 3-4 rounds out of a cold bbl, above freezing, but even that is a pain in the tush!
1Shirt!

[Jjed]

Shoot the female boolits this won't happen.:-D

[.22-10-45]

Your not shooting those old 'wadded" bullets for the old percussion Adams or Webley revolvers are you?

[Jammer Six]

Couldn't stop thinking about this today.

I'm posting this mainly in hopes that that picture will go away, and leave my mind in peace.

It occurred to me that it could be a blemish in the paper, particularly if it was only those two holes, and if the paper is recycled.

The paper itself could have had a flaw in that small corner.

[swheeler]

What causes this kind of hole in the target? bullets!

[Whistler]

Switch to a softer lube like BAC or Lar's NRA 50/50 for that gun/boolit/weather combo and your problems will go away.
You guys have explained it clearly and I am convinced that it is caused by the lube. I'm not really keen on making the "problem" go away, since I don't consider it a problem. I was just curious to what caused something I haven't seen before. As you can see on the second picture the accuracy at 27 yards is great. :)

[Sasquatch-1]

Really! All this speculation. This is the deffinitive answer, it was Slim Pickens riding the bomb in. :bigsmyl2:

[dakotashooter2]

I was gonna guess "Guidance wires" but they missed the black..............

[Sasquatch-1]

I was gonna guess "Guidance wires" but they missed the black..............

You think he could have gotten a better group with tow bullets.:-P

[Sonnypie]

Come on!
What is the matter with you guys.
Look at the shape....

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/71000/Gun-Through-a-Keyhole--71331.jpg

Classic case of Keyholeing.... :groner:

[smilie=l:

[BLTsandwedge]

.....erratic lube jettison at low velocities.
Gear

From experience I can tell you that this is really embarrassing.......

[swheeler]

Maybe ****** in the powder or priming compound?

[303Guy]

What causes this kind of hole in the target? bullets!I resisted saying that right from the beginning!:mrgreen:

Hey, maybe it's a 'key-hole'. Yes, your boolits are key-holing!

Seriously, it is a curious impact hole. Thanks for sharing. And thanks for creating the opportunity for a whole bunch of wise cracks. I love the wise cracks!:mrgreen: :drinks:

[Linstrum]

It was Aloysius Asperly who noticed this same exact phenomenon of gashed holes in paper targets back in 1927 that started his development of the Asperly Aimless. I'm surprised none of the Asperly Aimless shooters here on the board didn't pick up on this!

rl 1079