Don't bash on me too hard...

[jdgabbard]

Alright, here we go...

So, I've had lots of things to think on during this deployment to the middle-east. And a lot of it has been firearms related. One of the things I was thinking about the other day was the creation of the first Hand Ejector model, and the origins of the K-Frame and the .38spl.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but the first 38 specials were not too different mechanically from our modern k-frames. A few subtle differences, and were originally designed for use with Holy Black. Having said that, you may assume what I'm going to hit at next.

I'm thinking about acquiring a k-frame for use with black. My understanding is this is a little less common venture. And the reasons are two fold. Firstly, who doesn't like smoke! Taking a cartridge back to it's origins to me seems like a nice step back in time. Something magical if you know what I mean (and I suspect you do, given your reading posts in this section of the board). My second reason behind this, is eventually, and possibly in the somewhat near future, our sport will begin to wind down. Eventually smokeless powder, bullets, primers, and loaded cartridges as well as the very firearms that shoot them will come to an end. Will this be in our lifetime or our childrens', I do not know. But knowing that I could extend this past time is something I take comfort in. And as has been posted on this board before, black powder is somewhat easily produced by the shooter.

Now on to what I do know. I realize that once shot with holy black you need to clean up REAL well. I've got no issues with this, As I don't really see needing to take the side plate off and clean up inside much. At the most taking the crane and the cylinder off. However, I'm thinking that even the possibility of corrosion could be minimal. Say a stainless steel model. So I ask, how vulnerable to rust is a stainless vs. blued steel when used with Holy Black?

My second question: I know the original loading, 158g at about 850fps. Obvious loading would be with a 358311, and a good black powder lube. However, I tend to like shooting slightly lighter lead. And have thought about trying the 358242 120g, cast soft w/ tin for fillout. Do you think that the two grooves for lube would be enough with something of this design???

Feel free to inject thoughts and opinions into this thread. That is the purpose behind it. If you feel the need to talk me out of this endeavor, then by all means speak up. I'm not dead set on this, nor am I against it. I'm just sitting on the fence thinking about the possibilities.

[NickSS]

You pose a good set of questions. First the 38 spl may have been loaded with black powder from the factory but I can not swear to it as it was before my time. I do know that it will hold a bit more black than the 38 long colt would and was loaded with a heavier bullet. This was S&W attempt to get more power than the 38 S&W or 38 LC could deliver (Kind of a turn of last century magnum). The only concern I would have with shooting black in a K frame would be cleaning the cylinder pin. and potentially gumming same up so that it will not rotate. As for the rest of the gun you should have little trouble cleaning it up.

[StrawHat]

Make sure you use a black powder compatible lube on the boolit.

Second idea: Some of the shooters at the CAS matches use Mobil 1 grease on the cylinder pin to keep it from gumming up.

[dubber123]

I don't believe the Special was ever loaded with BP, but I could be wrong. My only other thought is the tight barrel/cylinder gap on most S&W's will likely give you operational fits due to BP fouling in short order. Sounds fun though! :)

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Have fired 38 Special with 3f. Used the Ideal 358432 seated out as far as my cylinder would tolerate to get more 3f in. Compressed powder as much as possible (but you can bulge the case). Lube grooves were not enough to get a star at muzzle so smeared lube (55/45 beeswax & olive oil on hot days) on nose which took care of insufficient lube in the 6" barrel.
If I was serious about shooting a 38 cartrige with 3F I would get a 357 mag. More powder capacity and you will end up with a good 100 FPS more which gets this combination up to a decent thumper with a 165 grain WC.
Have not tried Mobile 1 but straight olive oil kept my cylinder turning for 30 rounds.
As we do not have murcuric primers the corrosion issue is not what the "rumorists" would have you believe. Just clean it with water or moose milk, dry it and then a regular oil rag pass over. No problems in many years.
I bet the Supermags would be great candidates for 3f. Gonna have to try that this time up in the 357,375 & 414 SM´s.
Mike in Peru

[jdgabbard]

Mike what type of wheelgun did you work your loads in?

Nick, roger. I'm aware of the need for the proper lube.

StrawHat, I'll keep the Mobile1 trick in mind. Thanks a bunch!

[TXGunNut]

As you know the .38 Spl has it's roots in the blackpowder era so it's reasonable to give it a try. Lyman's 158 gr fn 358665 has a nice big lube groove and should leave plenty of room for BP in the case. Finding a clean-burning load will be important if you have a tight cylinder gap but the right granulation, brand and compression should be pretty clean. I'm thinking KIK FFFg but that's just a SWAG. Sounds like fun.

[Lead pot]

The gap between the cylinder face and the barrel needs to be slightly enlarged to keep the cylinder from binding when the fouling builds up.
If you look at the old colts percussion or cartridge you will notice that they are not as tight as the modern revolvers are.
One thing I do is, I put a little bore butter or soft lube on my fingertip and put it on the front of the cylinder when I load.

[w30wcf]

According to an early firearms catalog the original .38 Special black powder ballistics were 950 f.p.s. in a 6" barrel. By the 1920's that had been reduced to 850 f.p.s. According to a b.p. guru, the reason for the change was a reduction in the ballistic strength of the powder.

As this early box shows, they were loaded with 21 1/2 gr of b.p. I dissected the cartridges in this box and they did, indeed, contain that charge weight of FFFG powder.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/38SpecialBlackPOwderjpg-1.jpg

THe cartridges contained a 2 lube grooved, round nosed bullet. The Lyman/Ideal 358250 is a copy of the original bullet.

The 358311 should work aok in a pistol barrel. Based on my experience, the 358665 that TXGunNut referenced does work well in a .38/.357 revolver using black powder.

I did want a bullet that resembled the original 358250 to carry the extra lube for my rifle so I had Accurate Mold make the 36-165B.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-165B-D.png

I reassembled the original b.p. cartridges after replacing the primers which were the early mercuric type (note that someone tried to fire some of the cartridges but the priming compound was dead), annealing the cases and relubing the bullets with SPG.
Velocity in my 6" .357 revolver was a surprising 934 f.p.s. average.
In my rifle, they went a bit over 1,250 f.p.s. with good accuracy.

Reloads using SWISS FFFG pretty much duplicated the performance of those early U.M.C. cartridges.

Reloads using Goex FFFG went 860 f.p.s. in the pistol.

Lots of fun!
w30wcf

[Chicken Thief]

I shoot a Norwegan Nagant in 7.5mm that was originally loaded with BP.
I cheat by a mile and use pure lead and a gascheck, lubed with BP lube and can shoot 4-5 barrels before lubing/cleaning the action. Fouling will sieze it up eventually, but lubing beforehand will prevent it (somewhat).

[.22-10-45]

Hello, for B.P. use, you might consider a nickle plated revolver. Much easier clean-up & innards are protected if fouling gets lodged in there...Plus, it's historically correct.
You might consider a grease cookie under your bullet. I use 1/16" dental wax wad next to powder, a 1/8" grease cookie & another wax or fibre wad on top of grease. Sounds like fun!

[jdgabbard]

According to an early firearms catalog the original .38 Special black powder ballistics were 950 f.p.s. in a 6" barrel. By the 1920's that had been reduced to 850 f.p.s. According to a b.p. guru, the reason for the change was a reduction in the ballistic strength of the powder.

As this early box shows, they were loaded with 21 1/2 gr of b.p. I dissected the cartridges in this box and they did, indeed, contain that charge weight of FFFG powder.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/38SpecialBlackPOwderjpg-1.jpg

THe cartridges contained a 2 lube grooved, round nosed bullet. The Lyman/Ideal 358250 is a copy of the original bullet.

The 358311 should work aok in a pistol barrel. Based on my experience, the 358665 that TXGunNut referenced does work well in a .38/.357 revolver using black powder.

I did want a bullet that resembled the original 358250 to carry the extra lube for my rifle so I had Accurate Mold make the 36-165B.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-165B-D.png

I reassembled the original b.p. cartridges after replacing the primers which were the early mercuric type (note that someone tried to fire some of the cartridges but the priming compound was dead), annealing the cases and relubing the bullets with SPG.
Velocity in my 6" .357 revolver was a surprising 934 f.p.s. average.
In my rifle, they went a bit over 1,250 f.p.s. with good accuracy.

Reloads using SWISS FFFG pretty much duplicated the performance of those early U.M.C. cartridges.

Reloads using Goex FFFG went 860 f.p.s. in the pistol.

Lots of fun!
w30wcf

w30wcf, I won't be using balloon head cases with this project, be modern brass, so the charge and the velocities won't be as high. But those are impressive numbers for that old cartridge! I'm very much looking forward to this.

Thanks guys for the tip on lubing the face of the cylinder before hand. I'd hate to enlarge the cylinder gap, but will look into possibly opening it up a few thousands, when I figure out exactly what I'm going to go with that is.

.22-10-45, you think that nickle will be a better option than stainless? Just curious, as I see a lot more stainless ones out there than nickle plate.

[TXGunNut]

I'd hate to enlarge the cylinder gap, but will look into possibly opening it up a few thousands, when I figure out exactly what I'm going to go with that is.-jdgabbard


Good point, filing on a forcing cone is not "plan A" in my book either. If you haven't picked out a revolver one w/ .006" or so so clearance should keep the cylinder turning with a clean load. Mine (retired PPC match guns) are closer to .002 or .003 so will only fire 231 if I fire them at all. No prob w/ stainless, you can polish them to look like nickel or dull them to look like patina if you wish. Personally, I'd just shoot them.

[coloraydo]

Not to hijack the thread at all, but seems like the Dab Wesson revolvers, which you can adjust the cylinder gap with easily, would be just the ticket for this. I have thought about trying this very same thing before, just never have followed through with it.

[jdgabbard]

Dan Wesson is a little higher then what i'm going to pay... Especially when there are other suitable models for the intended purpose.

Tx, that's brings up a good point. Might do me well to grab a set of gauges and take them with me when I go shopping.

[TXGunNut]

Feeler gauge is nice, regular paper is .002-3" and will work in a pinch. Before bifocals I could eyeball a gap like that. :coffee: I used to keep a bronze brush in my shooting box to dry-clean the front on my cylinder and forcing cone after 90 rounds in a PPC match. Need to put one in my kit again as my Uberti drags a bit after 20-30 rounds.

[Springfield]

If you wanted a lighter and shorter bullet the Accurate 36-140c is one that I had designed for my 38 S&W pocket revolvers. If you waned to try some out I could send you a few for cost of shipping. For what it is worth, I shoot BP in my cowboy guns all the time in matches. I have all blued guns and as long as you clean them properly with BP friendedly solvent(I use water and Murphy's Oil soap) rust shouldn't be a problem. I sometmes shoot a match and don't even clean my guns if I am going to be shooting again the next weekend and haven't had any rust yet. Opening up the cylinder gap MIGHT work but the opposite is also true, the larger the gap the more stuff that gets blown out, so don't be in too much of a hurry to get a large gapped gun. I also use grease on my cylinder pins, helps keep the fouling out of there. Never tried BP with my k framed 66 but I do regularly shoot my old Colt 45 auto with BP with no problems. Also shoot BP in my Webleys, and they work fine for a 5 stage match(25 rounds each gun). The secret is to keep everything lubed well so nothing has a chance to harden up. And they used nickled guns in the old west as they didn't have the SS option we have now. Now you have me thinking about BP in my Smith! Might try it out this weekend after the cowboy match, already have some bullets sized and lubed.

[TXGunNut]

Murphy's oil soap? Please tell me more! Happen to have a bottle around, no idea why. Recently experience moose milk and it was an eye-opener. And yes, OP has me thinking about BP in more than one smokeless gun. Too bad all my Smiths are tight match guns or snubbies. OTOH can you imagine the reaction to touching off a 2" M60 w/ BP on a public range about sundown?

[StrawHat]

TxGunNut,

Imagine standing in position 1, upwind from the other competitiors on Stage 1 of a PPC Match and firing 12 rounds of HBWC backed by blackpowder. After the first chorus of "WT...", a lot of laughs and then a lot of firing. It was a good experience but I'll not repeat during a match. The scores were about the same but it was hard to see the target. And the Davis revolver never noticed anything unusual, just kept shooting for the rest of the match.

[jdgabbard]

That's sounds like it would turn some eye, tx!

[Springfield]

I clean my guns with a pitcher of hot water with about a 1/2 cup of Murphys Oil soap. Cleans the guns well and leaves a slight oily deposit on everything. I then grease the cylinder pins and spray Break Free into the innards.

[L Ross]

My wife and I shot a lot of black powder 38 spl. at cowboy matches. They work really well in any of the open top repro single action revolvers such as the 1872 or various "conversion" revolvers. No binding at all. I rigged up a drop tube in my Classic Cast turret press and managed to squeeze 20 gr of 3fg into 38 spl cases with a 130 gr boolit. They sure don't sound like 38's.

Duke

[TXGunNut]

TxGunNut,

Imagine standing in position 1, upwind from the other competitiors on Stage 1 of a PPC Match and firing 12 rounds of HBWC backed by blackpowder. After the first chorus of "WT...", a lot of laughs and then a lot of firing. It was a good experience but I'll not repeat during a match. The scores were about the same but it was hard to see the target. And the Davis revolver never noticed anything unusual, just kept shooting for the rest of the match.


Too bad I quit shooting PPC awhile back, that would be worth a laugh. Probably not much room for powder under a HBWC, good thing the target was only 21 ft away. That would be a bad idea on a range w/ 20 ft side walls and baffles, could probably skip the reload since the taget wouldn't be visible.
Now qualification, that's another matter. I had a history of misbehaving then. I'd turn and talk to the RO while steadily placing rounds on target, watch birds overhead, etc. BP would be almost as much fun as putting a dab of that explosive putty behind a target. Damned target backer caught fire and burned up, tough to score.;)

[TXGunNut]

That's sounds like it would turn some eye, tx!



BP is always a hoot on a public range, just remember to bring extra ammo for the curious.

[w30wcf]

w30wcf, I won't be using balloon head cases with this project, be modern brass, so the charge and the velocities won't be as high. But those are impressive numbers for that old cartridge! I'm very much looking forward to this........

Interestingly, the balloon head cases only hold about 1 1/2 grs more powder than modern brass.

Compression in the U.M.C. factory black powder cartridges was .13".

Of course, different b.p.'s can have different densities so another powder might require more compression and others the same or less.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[justashooter]

stainless gun like a 67 would be your best bet. clean in boliing water with a little dish detergent, then re-oil correctly after removing the sideplate for drying (learn how to correctly remove a smith sideplate before trying to do it). i have fired 3f in 38 cases in a blackhawk. abt 18 grains is a full load and near compression IIRC. keep in mind that modern cases do not have the capacity of older styled balloon head cases. not much smoke, but consistent velocities and accuracy.