CA Bulldog loves Trailboss, now the bad news

[palmettosunshine]

So I was wandering in Bass Pro Shop in Myrtle Beach, thinking about a new smelting setup. Didn't see anything that really made me drool, so I drifted over to the reloading section. FINALLY, some trailboss powder and then wonder of wonders, some .44 special brass. And wait, whats that on the bottom shelf, no way, a set of Lee .44 special dies? MUUUWAHAAHAA, range here we come!

Sped all the way home (you can't see me officer, I have reloading to do) and jumped on the computer to find load data for the 200 gr RNFP WW boolit. 4.5 gr of Trailboss it is then. Let's use some WLP and roll a few.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/palmettosunshine/boolits003.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff1/palmettosunshine/boolits002.jpg

And it's off to the range we go! Holy cow, was that a pleasure to shoot! Nice, tight groups and VERY manageable recoil that my arthritic thumbs appreciated. Me likey. I'll have to post the targets as soon as I remember what I did with them....

Now for the bad news. In DA mode, I heard the worst sound ever. Click. No BOOM. What the? All other rounds in the cylinder went Boom, just not the first one. On the second pass, they would fire, just not the first time. Hmmmm. If I went SA it fired every time. Curiouser and curiouser. I thought at first it was the ammo that I loaded with the Lee Loader, some 160 grainers from Missouri Bullets. Wasn't sure how worn out the loader was and noticed some primers weren't seated as well as others. I did have some FTF with those rounds and chalked it up to the old Lee Loader.

I used my hand press (Lee) with the Ram prime for my cast boolits. Felt much better about the primer seating. Same issue. Now what? All were Winchester Large Pistol primers so I'm thinking it could be the revolver.

Called Charter Arms today and would you believe a real, live person answered the phone. No press one for English, no please listen carefully, our menu options have changed, I got "Thanks for calling Charter Arms, this is Dee, how may I help you?"

Wow. Since mine is an older model, there is a $49 charge to repair the weapon, plus parts. OH, and I don't have to send any money with the gun, they'll check it out and call me. I'm looking for my hard case now....

[NickSS]

It sounds to me that you either had a high primer or you main spring is a little light or both. Before you spend money sending the gun in check the gun out with some factory ammo and see if you have the same problem. I had the same thing happen with a Taurus Model 85 38. It was due to me cutting the hammer spring a little too much to lighten the trigger pull. I fixed it by installing a small washer under the spring to give a a bit more compression. The gun works great now and only took me five minutes to fix.

[Bret4207]

Sorry for the trouble, but a real live person answered the phone and was happy to help. That's worth something!

[MT Gianni]

Perhaps on the first pass through the hammer is seating the primer. All rounds are then firing with a fully seated primer. I would make sure that all rounds were loaded on a standard set of dies with fully seated primers before sending it in.

[theperfessor]

+1 to Nick SS and MT Gianni. I'm going with the not-fully-seated primer theory, which will drain off a lot of the hammer energy. I'd be trying a box of cheap (well not really anymore) factory ammo before I sent it off.

For the record, I use a Lee hand primer, I don't prime on a press. I've never had any problems feeling when a primer is fully seated. And I don't have any ignition problems.

[theperfessor]

By the way, the hammer fall arc and resulting energy is larger when using a DA revolver in SA mode. With the gun empty cock it for SA shooting and see where the hammer is. Then compare that to where the hammer travels back to when you use it in DA mode. That's just enough difference sometimes to show up spring and priming problems.

[richhodg66]

I have a little Charter Bulldog, mine is about 25 years old or so. I enjoy the little thing but I don't shoot it often, maybe I need to get that out this weekend.

[runfiverun]

the first shot only, is the clue you have a weak spring.
really guy's.
what's the chance he got a high primer on only the first every time?
i am sure he would have noticed a row of every sixth primer sitting high.

[Bullwolf]

If I am comparing the power, so to speak of a certain pistol's firing pin strike, for example before and after the installation of lighter hammer spring.. I like to do the pencil test.

You take an UNLOADED gun, and tip the muzzle of the gun up. Then you take a wooden #2 pencil, and drop it down in the barrel so the eraser head of the pencil is sitting down on top of the firing pin channel.

Then fire the gun (still facing up so the pencil doesn't fall out) in single action mode. When the firing pin strikes the pencil eraser, you will and see just how high the pencil launches itself up into the air, and into the barrel. The pencil should jump quite a few inches up into the barrel from the firing pin strike. Then check it again in double action mode, and see just how far the pencil shoots up into the air.

It's sort of an arbitrary test, but it will give you a before and after baseline to compare things with, if you want a visual example of just how hard your firing pin strike is.

No, it's not very scientific, but it's something to go on at least.

A VERY weak, or bad firing pin strike will be quite obvious, (the pencil will not go up very far, if at all)

It's a quick and easy test (and a quiet one too) that you can do before you try and test the ignition reliability of your gun versus 50 or so rounds loaded with Federal primers, and compare that to say 50 rounds loaded with a harder primer like a Wolf or Tula primer.

A bunch of you probably already know how to do this silly little test, but I am going to mention it here just in case a few folks have never thought of it, or heard about doing it.


- Bullwolf

[fivegunner]

I had the same problem with a brand new charter arms pug bulldog , I sent it back 2 times, and when I got it back it did the same thing on DA. then I got the help of Gun writer, he called me and said to call Charter Arms CEO . I did and he told me to send it in again, I did and they sent a brand new one. and it will shoot 35 out of 50 DA fine. the other 15 need a secound time around or more to fire. I was going to use this gun as a carry / defence gun . but I cant` trust it to fire. oh, this is with factory Rem loads and I did try some handloads, it did not matter! I sure do like the size and weight of the bulldog pug, but it`s got to work every time I pull the trigger

[richhodg66]

How new are theses Bulldogs that are causing trouble? Mine is older, and my Dad has one about the same age, and to the best of my knowlege niether of us have ever had a problem with either one.

I know Charter Arms has undergone several reorganizations over the years, is this a QC problem that has developed since they were first introduced?

[LouisianaMan]

Recently bought a used BD Pug and had a different version of the same problem--click, no bang. Actually, a cylinder or so went bang, then problems arose. Turned out the cylinder wasn't indexing! At least, not all of the time. This was both SA and DA.
The LGS I purchased it from took it back, ordered parts, and installed oversized hand and a new trigger spring. Seems OK, but have yet to check it on the range. Gunsmith said a malfunctioning hand could undershoot the ratchet and lock up the gun, or overshoot it and allow the trigger spring to function the hammer, but miss indexing the cylinder. As far as he was concerned, it was an easy fix.
I'm sure I butchered the explanation somewhat, but hopefully you get the idea. If I'm too far wrong, maybe Revolvergeek will come along and fix some of my terminology.
I intend to carry this gun matched with a .357 Pug of known reliability, but only if the BD proves as reliable as the .357 is. I plan to run several hundred mild hand loads thru it--perhaps a 200g at 700, and a 240 at 650. Then I'll try a decent amount and variety of full power "service" ammo before I depend on it. I really like the size, shape and feel of the gun, so I hope it is ready for action.

[CJR]

In addition to all the causes mentioned, there is another cause of a CA light hammer hit in DA. An incorrectly bent trigger return spring, where it rests on the transfer bar pivot pin flat, will not keep the transfer bar against the firing pin during DA. If the trigger is pulled back in DA and the transfer bar is "leaning back" as it moves upward, a light hammer hit will result. This happens because the hammer hits the "leaning-back" transfer bar first and drives it forward to hit the firing pin lightly. After the transfer bar hits the firing pin,it rebounds backward to re-hit the falling hammer and slow its fall. This "double-hammer hit" on the transfer bar instead of "one-hammer hit" is what causes failures to fire.

A simple test to see if you have this problem. With AN EMPTY GUN, hold the CA with the barrel pointing straight up. Slowly DA the piece and watch what the transfer bar is doing. Is it "leaning-back" and away from the firing pin? Or is it sliding up and maintaining constant contact against the firing pin until the hammer falls? The transfer bar must be in constant contact with the firing pin as it slides upward until the hammer falls. That way ALL the energy, of the falling hammer, is transferred to the firing pin for proper ignition.

The simple fix. The trigger return spring, in the trigger, needs to be re-bent slightly where it rests on the flat of the transfer bar pivot pin. Then the transfer bar is always held against the firing pin as it slides upward. Trial and error is required to get it right. When the CA is set up properly, the transfer bar will always be in contact with the firing pin no matter where the piece is pointing and ignition will be reliable.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a new model CA Bulldog Pug in .44 Special and I also have a 5lb jug of Trailboss. I have been using Unique powder. At first I tried a charge of 6.5 Gr of Unique and with a 256 gr Mihec boolit it about tore offa my hand.

Now I use a charge of less than 5 gr or so and it is much nicer to me.

I am gonna hafta try some trail boss with the Mihec HP Penta HP design boolits and see what I can come up with.

The Lipsey's special 5.5 bbl Bisley BH loves the Unique powder but it is a much heavier gun.

[LouisianaMan]

CJR, that is excellent info!!!
Just tested my two CA's and the newly-repaired 44 passed with flying colors, whereas the heretofore reliable 357 failed obviously. Gravity keeps the transfer bar in place when the gun is horizontal or pointed downward, but when oriented above horizontal it falls slackly back towards the hammer.
Any tips to websites that would take me thru disassembly and assy.? I can function inside an S&W, but haven't the first clue about Charters.

[CJR]

LouisianaMan,

I don't know of any website to help in stripping a CA. I've been working/modifying them since they first came out and they're simple to strip down. Like anything else, you learn from your mistakes. For the older models, i.e. with cylinder movement stops, the CA can be a little tedious to disassemble the cylinder unless you make a jig to do that as I did. For re-bending the trigger return spring, for proper transfer bar function, the trigger/transfer bar/pawl/bushing/trigger return spring must be removed as an assembly. The only trick in replacing the trigger assembly is to make sure the end of the spring goes against the frame before the trigger pin is inserted. If you don't get it right, the trigger won't return after DA. You'll see what I mean when you try it.

Also, I don't recommend lightening the trigger spring with the existing firing pin. Reason? The existing firing pin nose is very blunt and a lot of hammer spring force is required to dent the primer. Solution? Remove firing pin and taper its nose to a 1/16"D (Dunlap's Gunsmithing minimum firing pin diameter). If done properly, the 1/16"D firing pin nose requires less hammer spring force to dent the primer, but the remaining original diameter/length of the firing pin will still be guided correctly in the frame firing pin hole. When done properly, very reliable light DA will result and primers will not be pierced just as Dunlap states.

Best regards,

CJR

[palmettosunshine]

CJR,

Thanks! That is fantastic information. Unfortunately for me, out of all my many talents, gunsmithing isn't one of them. I suppose if I put my mind to it I could figure it out because that's what I do, I figure things out, but time really isn't on my side and I don't want to screw up my main carry piece. I'm ok with hearing a "click" at the range, just don't want to ever take a chance on hearing that sound if my life or my family's lives depend on it.

Thanks again and have a great day!

[McLintock]

Yeah, I want to add my thanks CJR for your comments, my CA Pug that I bought a couple months ago, is doing the same thing. Just checked it and the transfer bar lays back against the hammer all through the cocking action, whether single or double action. Will get it fixed right pronto. Another thing to check, particularly if the transfer bar is funtioning properly is primer brand. Some Winchester primers of a couple years ago were known for not firing and needing to be double tapped quite often. This was a big problem in the Cowboy Action shooting game and was discussed quite a lot on the SASS forum several years ago. I've still got some and they often fail to fire in my Ruger Blackhawks on the first try. So you might try Federals or a softer primer before doing a lot of other things, like shipping it back to Charter Arms which can be quite expensive these days.
McLintock

[LouisianaMan]

CJR,
Very busy in my JROTC world this month, so I dropped off my Pug at the LGS that repaired my Bulldog recently. It's ready for pickup, so I look forward to seeing what they did. I want to thank you again, because your willingness to share your knowledge may literally save my life someday. Since the Pug always went bang at the range, I never would have dreamed that it might fail if I ever had to shoot from the floor. . . .

[Mal Paso]

Some Winchester primers of a couple years ago were known for not firing and needing to be double tapped quite often. This was a big problem in the Cowboy Action shooting game and was discussed quite a lot on the SASS forum several years ago. I've still got some and they often fail to fire in my Ruger Blackhawks on the first try. So you might try Federals or a softer primer before doing a lot of other things, like shipping it back to Charter Arms which can be quite expensive these days.
McLintock

+1

Several years ago I had 2 Separate Batches of Winchester WLPs which Failed to Fire reliably. Springs were replaced, actions checked, IT Was The Primers. Winchester admitted nothing but the next batch had a "Coating for Improved Sensitivity". I Won't Buy Winchester!

I have one revolver with a light spring I haven't been able to replace and Federal's are 100% reliable.

[TCLouis]

Years ago I bought a brand new CA Pathfinder.

It would fail to fire on about half the rounds until it was shot about 250 rounds and fired reliably after that. Loosened up and all was great. Accurate lil bugger too.

Got a new CA Bulldog and before I even took the tags off of it sent it back for a barrel that did not look like it had internal threads. My comment was if President of CA would get off the range smoozing with NRA wag (youtube video) and work on QA/QC then junk would not make it out to dealers. Returned promptly with a smother barrel. I shot a hundred rounds or so problem free. Now it has started misfiring. All is tight so I am going to keep shooting it til it shoots free and fires every time so it will be a viable Carry choice. That was my reason for buying it.

[palmettosunshine]

+1

Several years ago I had 2 Separate Batches of Winchester WLPs which Failed to Fire reliably. Springs were replaced, actions checked, IT Was The Primers. Winchester admitted nothing but the next batch had a "Coating for Improved Sensitivity". I Won't Buy Winchester!

I have one revolver with a light spring I haven't been able to replace and Federal's are 100% reliable.

Of course I'm using Winchester Large Pistol primers. Guess I need to switch brands and see if I still have the same problem. Thanks again everyone!