duplex patching

[bigted]

i been playin with some duplex loads and i gotta say that ill prolly get hung here for mentioning them but here goes anyway for those of you that practice or wonder about this seemingly forbotten loading.

shooting was done with a winchester hiwall hunter model with the 28 inch barrel for the first loads. the second loads were fired in my ruger #1 with its longer throat.

these loads consist of 10% smokless...[imr 3031] and the rest with the smokless grains subtracted 1 to 1 from the total black powder grains........example was the first load being 50 grains total with 5 of smokless and 45 black to total the origanal 50 grains desired.

so the first load was 5 grains imr 3031 with 45 grains goex 2f compressed .200 inch and wad was a 1/8th felt overpowder primed with a cci 200 large rifle and loaded in a sized remington case. the boolit was a bacco 45-500 slick boolit weighing in at 500ish grains with a flat base at diameter of .444 inch...wrapped in bacco's 9 pound onion skin two wraps meassuring in at .4515 inch. then the case opened with the only expander i have which is .455 inch... the boolit was tightened in the case with my rcbs full length size die with the de-primer pin/stem removed.

this load shot very clean and the debri out front told of complete shredding rite outta the muzzle. no rings left in the barrel and the duplex did its thing as i fired 5 shots without wiping or any lube at all. recoil was lite so the next load was a bit stiffer.

next i tryed 7 grains imr 3031 behind 63 grains goex 2f powders. all the same combanations as above except that the boolits had to be loaded further outta the case for the extra powders. this is the primary reasson for switching to the ruger for this load....first thing about this load is that it feels like a very stiff load thru the ruger. a small puff of air to remove the smoke revealed a very clean bore...almost as clean as a straight smokless load and with the acompanyed puff of paper bits in the air with the shot. this feels like a hunting load thru this ruger and i definetly will re-try it over the screens to see what velocity is.

all the cleaning i did with either of these loads consisted of 2 spit infested patches run back n forth twice for each and then following these with a dry patch to remove my spittle from an otherwise perfect bore then followed with an oily patch to preserve for the rack again.

all in all i have been having fun with this paper patching and im also doing it with smokless as well only patching up closer to the groove diameter. i like those as i can load em back without doing anything to the cases but slightly flair the mouth and reload them to shoot again with a rcbs hollow base slick boolit.

so there is my sordid story and my fun factor is rite up there. i think developing a hunting load will not be that hard with all the reading i been doing both here and other forums as well as the three books i bought for research into both the duplexing and paper patching.

hope i didnt ruffle too many feathers with this blasphemous uttering but there it is all the same

[giz189]

I think you need to maybe refigure the 1 - 1 ratio. Seems as though I heard it was a little more like 1gr smokeless to 3 gr black. I might be mistaken though. I was once.

[Lead pot]

I think you need to maybe refigure the 1 - 1 ratio. Seems as though I heard it was a little more like 1gr smokeless to 3 gr black. I might be mistaken though. I was once.

Pardon me for being blunt Giz!
"My mother always said I was the Flower of the Family," Your Mother might have been right saying this.

If one doesn't know what duplexing can do you should not make a reply on a mix you heard about.
A mixture like you mentioned will get some knot head in deep doo-doo.
A 10% load will get you in trouble with a load of the wrong powder.

[catkiller45]

Bigted===That figure you mention about the duplex load is way off..You pushing more than you think you are..

I would liketo know what your using for an alloy
in your bullet with this this load? If this is the bullet
I think it is from BACO,,ISN'T IT a lead bullet?

I have thought of trying a duplex load but haven't went that
route yet..John

[bigted]

yes i also read the 3 to one on black to smokeless...also got my recipes from a valuable source and feel comfy with my choice in mixures.

no the boolits i used are exactly the weight i described as i weigh them all and know what im playing with ...the baco boolits i mention come from my BACO MOULD i purchased from them...srry for not explaining that in the first post.

my components are closely researched before i ram them together and if i were to go into unplowed ground then i would do so very carefully and slowly with very small increments to keep myself outta trouble....hopefully!!

both mathews and others describe loads that are no more then 10% of the bp load and assure that they are safe for use. in fact mathews describes some for his ruger #1 loading as much as 15% of the bp used. a person needs to read these publications to ensure your loads tho and not take my word for them. the bpcr forum also has a section on just this thing...DUPLEXING...and i followed a recipe from there for my duplex first load. also some use lr-7 for the duplex in the 10% portion as well as some others that seem like pretty fast powders for the mix.

im very pleased with my success so far...[been looking for a paper patch load that would go well with bp in the hunting field]. rite now i have 5 loaded using a lyman 457643 400 grain boolit and i shoved it thru my .452 lee sizer with copious amounts of rcbs case lube for lubing the boolit first...[gotta love those simple tools]...and got a closed up groove portin of the boolit with a diameter of .452 on the boolit so when patched it comes to .4585 with my paper wrapped twice. this is intended for my marlin gbl 45-70 lever. the powder load is 55 grains total...being 5.5 grains imr 3031 and 49.5 grains goex 2f powders same cases and primers and the wrap stopped at the crimp groove which is smaller in diameter so i was allowed the crimp needed for running thru the lever... the compression was 1/4 inch.... .250 inch with the 1/8th felt powder wad...more news at 11 so to speak with these loads thru the lever action.

thanks for the warnings tho...im not infoulable and need the checks from time to time and apreciate the concern from fellow cranks of the shooting fraternity. these loads are a hoot for sure.

[Lead pot]

bigted.

If you stop and think a ratio like 1 in 3 what the load would be for some that have a large capacity case like the 110 or my .44 and .50 sharps that I use 100 gr and 115 grains of black powder in with a 700 grain bullet what the pressure would be with a load like that?
The modern day Lawyers would have a feast with anyone suggesting a load like that.

[bigted]

yes i agree. the loads were and are mentioned for 45-70 alone. both mathews book and those i read other then regular publications also are loading the 45-70 gubberment alone. i have a 45-120 and i would NEVER load a 10% smokless load in it for several reassons including the horific preassure i believe it would cause....that would be 12 grains of smokless behind 108 of 1 or 2 f black powder...my goodness what a load that would turn into. that 12 grains of smokless would turn into36 additional grains of black powder which equals to a total of 144 grains of powder igniting inside a space designed for 120 grains...imagine the compression of this in a 45 basic case?

i feel and agree with Mathews view that 10% smokless powder in a 45-70 GOVERNMENT would be unlikely to ever be an overload just simply becouse any boolit that will back up a charge like this would never allow the space to overload with such a load and the paper patch boolits patched to bore have a definet lower preassure just becouse of the design of having to not crimp on the paper to maintain the integrity of the paper.

this may not be for everybody and i have to agree however there is much to be examined with these mixed "duplex" loads and i seem to see more that is good then what is negative about them........for instance...

the lever action loads i just made and fired thru my marlin are wonderfull to say the least. they are clean to a fault and scoot the paper patched boolit thru the barrel with never a boble or a tinsie bit of lead deposited even tho no lube was used at all and repeat shots are a thing to be expected with the coresponding cleanliness. ill get some accuracy tests done as soon as i can and post them and maybe ill see that they wont group worth spit but im gonna try anyway. cant imagine why they wont group but ill report on that later.

[bigted]

those 457643 lymans i sized down to .452 and patched back to the .4585 worked flawlessly. very clean and on my short cleared front yard they all wound up in 1 hole....yes it is very short...35 or so yards...perfect for doping out what to try for longer ranges and how they will react in my rifles

guess i dont understand the objections of this duplex loading. it seems to have a bunch of positives and not many negatives that ive heard so far.

[RMulhern]

bigted.

If you stop and think a ratio like 1 in 3 what the load would be for some that have a large capacity case like the 110 or my .44 and .50 sharps that I use 100 gr and 115 grains of black powder in with a 700 grain bullet what the pressure would be with a load like that?
The modern day Lawyers would have a feast with anyone suggesting a load like that.

Kurt

Save ya breath man! You may as well be out talking to ya truck tire! These guys know all there is to know! Let the idiots blow their friggin brains out....and then...we won't have to listen to the dumbazzes!!:takinWiz::killingpc

[af2fb751]

Kurt

Save ya breath man! You may as well be out talking to ya truck tire! These guys know all there is to know! Let the idiots blow their friggin brains out....and then...we won't have to listen to the dumbazzes!!:takinWiz::killingpc

+1

Risking one's life and hard won guns for an untested notion? And for what gain?? If this notion had commercial merit, products would have been developed a long time ago. One poster writes "not many negatives that ive heard so far". Really?? I'm sure many of us would risk a catastrophic failure based on internet hearsay. Better to wait until Hodgdon, Alliant and Western et al., conduct professional testing and publish results. And then wait until an independent party tests and publishes confirmatory evidence. Anything else is like playing with IEDs. JIMHO.

[giz189]

Pardon me for being blunt Giz!
"My mother always said I was the Flower of the Family," Your Mother might have been right saying this.

If one doesn't know what duplexing can do you should not make a reply on a mix you heard about.
A mixture like you mentioned will get some knot head in deep doo-doo.
A 10% load will get you in trouble with a load of the wrong powder.

You are right, I don't do "duplexing". If I wanted to shoot smokless, I wouldn't bother with black at all. However, What I stated, wasn't exactly what I meant. Therein lies your warning. What I was thinking and I have read was to not use more than 10 to 12 per cent of the black powder charge as a primer, and it was reccomended to me that SR-4759 is about the best priming powder to use. But, I do know that it will increase pressure, maybe more in a vintage arm than you would need to. So, I choose to shoot black only. According to Paul Matthews, who did shoot with duplex loads, I quote,"it is generally recognized among serious black powder shooters that 1 grain of SR-4759 is equivalent to 3 grains of of black powder". Unquote.I did not name the powder for him that I was refering to, therefore I am guilty of spreading erroneous info. This info can be found in Pauls book The Paper Jacket on page 119, next to the last paragraph on the page. My apology for any misunderstandings.

[Good Cheer]

It's been about thirty years since I read about the duplex loads used by the Canadian national black powder team but it seems to me they used a maximum of ten grains of SR4756 to keep the fouling down. But, I'm going off of memory here with only a cup of coffee and a slice of pound cake.

[Good Cheer]

And maybe it was 4759. The pound cake is great.

[bigted]

there seems to be a bunch of folks that downtalk this duplex thing and what i started out to find out is if there are folks here that wouldnt mind sharing their info with me and not judge nor critisize the practice. it does exist and there can be no arguement with that statement. thusly here are a couple questions that id like to get some serious input on and not the half harted slamming i read from time to time...and yes this is a blackpowder question so bear with please?

what is the compared preassure rates of powders like imr 3031 and imr 4227 and rl-7 compared to blackpowders such as goex cartridge,,2f express,,plain 2f,,,and 1f powders? especially when combusted in a 45-70 cartridge with a 500ish boolit paperpatched?

what is the expected increase of fps and preassure with a loading of 10% of any of these powders when loaded behind the blackpowder main charge?

now i know that there are a couple folks here that have worked at powder plants and also folks that have degree's in explosive engineering and such so these questions should be straight forward in the answers to another whom is absolutly interested in the actual workings of these combo's instead of the hearsay that seems to fly with this kinda inquiry.

i nor anybody else that im aware of wants to end the straight bp shooting nor do i wish to change the rules for any competition...i just am in the stage that i have found an area that has great debate surrounding it and id for one like to dig down to the heart of the matter instead of just listening to some with the...[been doing this this way for years so why change]...attitude. this is interesting to me...a member here as well as other folks...therefore i feel it a kinda rite that when i have an honest question it should be answered with factual answers and guidance rather then the other type answers found here.

if im in the wrong place for this kinda inquiry then say so and ill inquire in other places away from here...just to be clear about my intent i have posted a like question on the shiloh forum and gotten fair and ussually kind and quality answers over there...so if im outta line ill ask my questions elsewhere

[powderburnerr]

thats the problem Ted , nobody has any pressure data on the stuff you are dealing with ,
you are in an area that isnt well documented by professional labratorys, and is an experiment , no matter what your argument is towards it .

[Lead pot]

Ted.

My post wasn't intended to criticize duplexing or to flame you, it was aimed at the 1 to 1 and the 1 to 3 foolishness thing.

I went through this phase of duplexing when you could still buy a roller in good shape for about $20. and one with a black bore for less. Man that was 50 years ago :shock:
Now I just tell people that I dont do duplexing because what I my self have tried back then.
I took the old junk rollers and clamped them in a vice and with a long string of twine pulled the trigger and I have bulged barrels doing this when the smokeless got to much and using to fast of a burning powder.
It does not take much smokeless to get clean burns, a .22 rim fire case full of the correct rifle powder is enough for a clean burn if your intend is not to gain the higher velocity.
Duplexing completely changes the caricaturists of both powders.
If your intend on pursuing this take care doing this.

[montana_charlie]

Duplexing completely changes the caricaturists of both powders.
... never mind ...

[Red River Rick]

I think a GOOD DOSE of Bullsye mixed with 60 grs of FFFG (run thru a ball mill) would surely clean out the fouling!

RRR

[Lead pot]

... never mind ...

Should have checked it on the spell checker:lol: characteristics

[stronics]

Bigted, A lot of years ago I was a member of a shooting club in Orange Co. Ca. We had a lot of lead bullet shooters and a match once a month.
One of the best shots used a 460 Watts. His load was "Case full of 4831 with enough RedDot on top of the primer that no unburned powder is left in the barrel after the shot". That is what he told me.
Most of the guys there used a duplex load of some kind with great results.
Take this for what it is, just information about some old ways.
David

[Grapeshot]

Many years ago I was reading a pieece by Elmer Keith on duplex loading old Black Powder Cartridges. He indicated that the old timers would load 15 grains or so of FFFFg powder thaen fill the rest of the case with 2Fg and load their paper patched bullets on top of that. When fired, the
4Fg would cause that load to shoot cleaner and not need as many swabings between strings. It's only been since the advent of smokeless, that the nitro powders and Black Powder have been mated to perform this task. Personally, I'd go with the 4Fg under the 2Fg load. I plan to try this sometime this month. I'll be back to report on it.

[bigted]

cool beans man. i will wait to hear your results with the 4f as the primer hugging powder behind the 2f. im very interested in your results as this would be a 100% blackpowder duplex and maybe not so ofensive to some if it will do the same job.

upon your results ill have to aquire some 4f for my own experiments...thanks grapeshot.

[1874Sharps]

I am anxious to hear the range results, too. It will be interesting to see how the duplex loads compare to a control group of standard loads. I will say this, though, that a quality BP loaded properly in a straight walled case (like Swiss 1 1/2 FG in a 45-70) seems to give pretty light fouling as is.

[MikeS]

I would imagine that SR4759 is well liked as the smokeless component in a duplex load because along with the fact that it's pressure range is fairly low like black powder, and so it wouldn't raise the pressures as much as other powders will. I saw a graph once that compared 4759 and Trail Boss to Black, and the lines for 4759 & black were much closer to each other, while the Trail Boss burns with a very high pressure spike. That chart was made to show that while TB is a bulky powder, it's still a high pressure powder, and that 4759 was a better powder for use in old original BPCR rifles than TB. For completeness here's the chart:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/33510159/pressure%20comparisons.jpeg

[smokeywolf]

bigted, I've read that 3031 is not quite as easily ignited as 4227 or 4759. And have also read that 4759 is the preferred powder under your 1 1/2 or 2 f black (or GOEX cartridge).
Can you tell me what made you decide on 3031 instead of 4759?

My father loaded duplex loads for the model '86 40-65 using just 2 grains of 4759 under 55-60 grains of GOEX ffg. This was back in the late 1950s. Don't know how well it worked out as far as accuracy or bore fouling. But, I do recall that he repeated this load quite a few times.

smokeywolf

[nanuk]

the arrogance of some on this board is very disappointing


all the comments about the "Great Bunch of Guys Here" has to be taken with a grain of salt....

or a pinch of 4759... or was is '56?

[felix]

Arrogance is everywhere! Those with little fortitude have no internal confidence. They typically use the façade of arrogance for self protection. Some were stringently and expertly taught when they were young by very experienced elders. These folks seldom gain self respect, true confidence, as they age because their "learning" is from the outside of their being. ... felix

[bigted]

hoo yaa!!! there IS philosify...then there is not !!! even with bad spelling i have fun and dont really squander my good times with pondering the crud that others seem to have to propose.

SMOKEYWOLF...after reading about the use of the 4759 and 4227 [ in a succesfull and accepted loading manual of semi oldie status] i deduced that one of the slowest burning powders that IMR makes would be a natural for this experiment...so i loaded it with that precise thinking about the hard igniting quality to help hamper the blackpowder in ignition as well as the prolonged burn to help burn the bp solids outta the barrel. i also researched to see if others had used it for the same reassons or at least some of them and concluded that the due to my findings that... it would at least in the saftey dept... it would keep my rifles safe as well as the safety of those around me and myself included...so i went forward with the experiment and found the 3031 to be an exelent powder for the primer hugging powder and the cleanliness is second only to the published use of the IMR 4227 powder for the primer hugging powder. the 4227 was found to be a bit cleaner then the 3031 but i would use either with confidence with the nod going to the 3031 for the lesser of the preassure...probably behind the 4759 powder for the preassure gain thing.

i would use none of this tho in a vintage blackpowder ere firearm! allow me to repeat that as i would hate to shirtail hear of anybody harming themselves or their precious vintage firearms. i use this duplex style in modern built...very strong firearms only.

i have a vintage marlin model 1893 in 38-55 coming for example... that was built in 1897 and i in no way would ever consider loading it with these duplex loads simply becouse of the old steel and unknown quality of that steel.

[Lead pot]

Felix.
If that Arrogant comment was a shot across my bow I will ignore it if I can save injury to anybody shooting a improper load.

I have been down this road destroying old $15. $20. rifles seeing how far I can push a duplex load in a safe safe environment. A duplex load will destroy a rifle in short order if the composition of the wrong powder ratio or a to fast burn rate. I read people using shot gun and pistol powders that would be a close to maximum load in a shot gun or pistol under a black powder load pushing a 500 grain plus bullet.

Below is a rifle that was loaded with smokeless powder that was listed in a loading manual and this particular rifle could not handle it.
What might work in one might not work in another.
Working with a duplex load even though the black powder is a fairly low pressure powder but the smokeless is not and to much will react just like a over charge in a smokeless alone load and your adding extra weight with the black powder under the bullet.

I have no objection using a duplex load but for your sake use caution and dont think you can use any type of powder under the black.

A duplex load using the wrong mix will also do what you see below.


http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0768.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_0768.jpg) http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0765.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_0765.jpg) http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0764.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_0764.jpg) http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0762.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_0762.jpg) http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0760.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_0760.jpg)

[felix]

Lead Pot, you are correct in what you have said about chemistry in general. It's amazing how many of us have done dangerous things without even realizing it as being dangerous. In that vein, you are to be commended. The shot across the bow is nothing more than a warning that communication is seldom an error free process. How can we really tell the truth from a lie without knowing the truth in advance? It's too bad the communicators don't know one another in detail before any kind of communication takes place. I guess we can sum it up as politics as expected, correct? ... felix

[bigted]

leadpot,,,thanks for posting those grizzly photo's of the un-wanted end result of over doing a good thing. these kinda photo's should be drug out every once in awhile to remind that we deal with a complicated and controled...[hopefully]...pipebomb everytime we venture into the mist of new to us territory in loading shells for any kind of firearm.