Swage jackets from paper?

[sledgehammer001]

Had an idea and thought I'd run it by you guys and see if anyone's tried it yet. Or see how many people I can make laugh:p If I spun a mandrel on my lathe to the proper diameter (undetermined at this point), used say woodglue? to wet printer paper, rolled it around the mandrel similar to PP a bullet, put a close fitting core in it and ran it into my swage die, think it might be feasible? Paper would have to be damp of course,with no exposed glue, and just short of the ogive on the bullet. ANY input is welcome....

[Bwana]

Short answer is no it won't work. The adhesive agent would be pressed out into your die. However, I applaud your attempt to think outside the box. I too have been thinking of another jacket material and have that program running in the back of my mind all the time. You just never know what might trigger a useful thought. Keep up the good work.

[GerryM]

sounds like anew twist on the paper patched bullets the cast shooters use, only with out the swage.

[nicholst55]

In order for a paper jacket/patch to work, it needs to be applied without any adhesive so it will be shed when the bullet leaves the muzzle. An interesting concept, at any rate.

[SquirrelHollow]

In order for a paper jacket/patch to work, it needs to be applied without any adhesive so it will be shed when the bullet leaves the muzzle. An interesting concept, at any rate.

Yep. Unless you shed the paper when it leaves the muzzle, accuracy goes completely to hell.

[gunguychuck]

I think you may be onto something here. Sizing a bullet after the paper jacket has dried works very well, why wouldn't it work in a swaging die without the adhesive.

[gabe123]

If you have that type of equipment, why not try turning a wood dowel into some? I seem to recall some militaries used wood projectiles for practice. I would like to see a review on someone doing this. One problem would arise though, what would they be called? Boolits is already taken.

[sledgehammer001]

If you have that type of equipment, why not try turning a wood dowel into some? I seem to recall some militaries used wood projectiles for practice. I would like to see a review on someone doing this. One problem would arise though, what would they be called? Boolits is already taken.

Tried wooden bullets once, in a .308 Win. Didn't have satisfying results with mine. Could have been the wood type, the load, or just Karma! Anyway, I gave up :) Easier to pour some shinies!

[Bambeno]

People said the Wright Brothers could never fly too. Try it you might not get good results from the start but you are sure to learn along the way.

[Got-R-Did]

Would we call them "Woolits"?
Got-R-Did

[firefly1957]

I tried this with bullets in the 45 ACP I wrapped the bullets swaged them dry and loaded them they shot OKAY but not great the paper mostly stayed on though the phone book targets. I also did some with 40 ga copper and it seems to work well IF I can get the base square. that is pistol bullets in .224 bullets I used a die made to used 22 rim fire cases and the foil was wrapped twice around the core rolled over the bottom and swaged in the point forming die. It made a beautiful copper jacketed bullet looked like a commercial jacket. I loaded them to about 1100f/s? and that copper foil rolled of all but one the bullets hitting side ways at 25 yards I even found one of the patches. I posted a picture on #18 here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1589818#post1589818.

[Multigunner]

If you have that type of equipment, why not try turning a wood dowel into some? I seem to recall some militaries used wood projectiles for practice. I would like to see a review on someone doing this. One problem would arise though, what would they be called? Boolits is already taken.
Downloaded ammo with wooden bullets was used with specially made blowback operation copies of the Japanese light machine guns for training purposes.

Most other wooden bullet cartridges had flimsey hollow core projectiles only meant to aid feeding and were used as blanks would have been, these were usually called a bulleted blank, the Swedes using a muzzle attachment to splinter the bullet on the way out of the muzzle.

An odd entry in the U S Army trials that ended with adoption of the Colt 1911 was the Schoube blowback pistol that used a special .45 ACP type cartridge with a extremely light wooden core bullet with thick FMJ. The blowback action could not handle the standard cartridge, but the wooden bullet left the muzzle at around 1500 FPS, so it would have been very deadly at close range.

Back to the swaged paper jacket idea.
A company I worked for many years ago used labels made from an extremely tough rag paper impregnated with plastic.
In trying to tear one of these labels I found the material stretched quite a bit, perhaps enough to form a seamless half jacket.
The paper was also very slick, almost like teflon.
I had thought of trying this paper as a patch for a muzzle loader, but never got around to it.

Wooden sabots or cups were used by some needle gun cartridges, and I've read of experiments in making plastic sabots to fire .308 bullets from a .338 Magnum for use on lighter game.

The wood used to make the best wagon wheel hubs was a south american hardwood that had been soaked in oil for years. They used similar wooden bearings in ships steam engines.

Personally I would not consider using a bare wooden projectile, but a wooden core FMJ might hold some possiblities for extreme high velocity with low pressures.
It would also greatly reduce the danger space beyond a range. Accidental shots over the berm would not travel very far.

[sledgehammer001]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I think I'll try paper jackets, but with my current doubts it'll be a while. Too many irons in the fire all the sudden...

[sledgehammer001]

[/QUOTE]

Personally I would not consider using a bare wooden projectile, but a wooden core FMJ might hold some possiblities for extreme high velocity with low pressures.
It would also greatly reduce the danger space beyond a range. Accidental shots over the berm would not travel very far.[/QUOTE]
Maybe a nice mix of hardwood sawdust and wax.... stuffed inside a jacket....:holysheep

[firefly1957]

There was a guy in the 1980's that made nylon bullets he was shooting them at 3000f/s from a 38 special pistol the idea was it would be a great self defense round while slowing rapidly and becoming non lethal by about 100 yards. The problem was those fast light plastic bullets would go though the then current body armor some police were using at close range. I have swaged some wood in a 22 bullet tip as test material for a non lead point I found it was to brittle. I used ash, pine, and Cherry. Air soft pellets did not work well either as I could not get a sharp point.

[Multigunner]

Personally I would not consider using a bare wooden projectile, but a wooden core FMJ might hold some possiblities for extreme high velocity with low pressures.
It would also greatly reduce the danger space beyond a range. Accidental shots over the berm would not travel very far.[/QUOTE]
Maybe a nice mix of hardwood sawdust and wax.... stuffed inside a jacket....:holysheep[/QUOTE]

The British MkVII bullet has a two piece core with originally an aluminum nose section, but later they used a compressed wood pulp nose piece.
As a nod to humanitarian issues the wood pulp was soaked with a powerful disinfectant to reduce infection of the wounded by fragments.
This was a development of the "Velopex" bullet made for some of the Express rifle cartridges. The Velopex used a half wooden core to allow very light high velocity bullets from a large bore rifle, while maintaining a reasonable length of bearing surface and other advantages of a full length bullet.






There was a guy in the 1980's that made nylon bullets he was shooting them at 3000f/s from a 38 special pistol the idea was it would be a great self defense round while slowing rapidly and becoming non lethal by about 100 yards. The problem was those fast light plastic bullets would go though the then current body armor some police were using at close range. I have swaged some wood in a 22 bullet tip as test material for a non lead point I found it was to brittle. I used ash, pine, and Cherry. Air soft pellets did not work well either as I could not get a sharp point.

The U S Military has used solid plastic bullets for short range and indoor practice in areas where there was not enough room for a proper range,
Its said the 7.62 plastic practice round can penetrate auto body metal at close range, with around the energy level of the .357 Magnum.

One of the old Soviet states made some 7.62X39 ammo with a bullet composed of a thin FMJ and core of poured resin.
Not sure if its true but I've been told these were for used by East German guards at government office buildings and at airfields.
The bullet being lethal on flesh, but unlikely to penetrate airframes, walls, or doors causing collateral damage.

[perotter]

P


One of the old Soviet states made some 7.62X39 ammo with a bullet composed of a thin FMJ and core of poured resin.
Not sure if its true but I've been told these were for used by East German guards at government office buildings and at airfields.
The bullet being lethal on flesh, but unlikely to penetrate airframes, walls, or doors causing collateral damage.

I have some East German plastic bullets laying around here. I don't remember if they have a FMJ. I'll try & look for them tomorrow.

[303Guy]

The idea as presented might not work but if the patch were dried first it could work very well. The glue should be confined to between the layers of patch. Glue on the surface might 'smear' on the bore and contaminate it. Glue on the inside would have no effect. Not even wet glue will stick to lead. Sticky lube will. The glue might best be diluted so that it holds the paper when dry but is otherwise soaked away by the paper. It doesn't take much to hold the paper from unwrapping.

If done right this could be a step forward. The precise dimensions of the patch would not be all that critical. However, the pressure applied to swage the core might be super critical as that is what will compress the patch. Perhaps a 'harder' paper like tracing paper would work better - just speculating.

Do try it and then try again if the first attempt fails. How many attempts did it take NASA to get a rocket off the launch pad? Keep at it until it succeeds.

[sledgehammer001]

Hmmmm, you guys gave me some good ideas to try. As soon as I have the time to fiddle around with it. Thanks, everyone. J

[johnson1942]

i do something similar all the time and thats all i shoot in my .45/70. i swage a .451 bullit with a very short round nose. i wrap 2 wraps of number 9 paper around the bullet with no over hang on the base the paper is cut as the shape of a rectangle. the paper is soaked in water and elmers white water soluable glue. approxamate ratio of 2 parts water to 1 part glue. when dried naturally with out heat. they come out .458 i then useing the same nose used in makeing the .451 bullet run them with ease through my .459 swageing die. and softly bump up to a very perfect very smooth .459. i use reloader 7 behind this bullet and a polly wad between powder and base of bullet. the polly wad wont let the paper slip back off the bullet. i also throated the breech of the barrel so these bullet go up into the barrel . accracy is perfect no leading i would shoot no other kind of bullet. if you want to contact me to talk by email or phone look up pineridgeblackpowder.com on google . you are absolutely on the right track and have a very inventivemind. ive had a lot of failures but oh are the successes that do work solid and fun.

[Wayne Smith]

Back to the swaged paper jacket idea.
A company I worked for many years ago used labels made from an extremely tough rag paper impregnated with plastic.
In trying to tear one of these labels I found the material stretched quite a bit, perhaps enough to form a seamless half jacket.
The paper was also very slick, almost like teflon.
I had thought of trying this paper as a patch for a muzzle loader, but never got around to it.



I remember using that. We called it tearless paper, if I remember right. Do you remember what it was officially called? Might like to try some.

[DukeInFlorida]

Any plastic would probably melt unevenly on the way down the bore.

Even other plastic based stuff (like Tyvek - flashspun high-density polyethylene fibers made from recycled bottles), wouldn't work well... At least I don't think so.

[Wayne Smith]

And the more I think about it there is nothing to hold the paper to the lead. As slick and strong as that paper was I can see it simply springing away from the lead once the bullet is punched out of the die.