Bottom Pour & WW Alloy

[12DMAX]

Is there a secret to keeping garbage out of your cast using one of these? I have hand selected 100% lead WW's , smelted down , scraped and fluxed till my arm fell off, scrubbed my BP pot spotless, fluxed, temp up and down and still get **** in my boolits!!! :mad: Next move is a screw up the spout and a laddle. Hate to give up on this bottom pour, it is nice but this is just frustrating!

[462]

The pot's not the problem. If there is crud in your boolits, your alloy isn't too clean enough. Don't know what else to say.

[jmsj]

12DMAX,

The pot's not the problem. If there is crud in your boolits, your alloy isn't too clean enough. Don't know what else to say.

After reading you post, I am curious if you are smelting in your bottom pour pot?
Pictures of your bullets might also help diagnose the problem.
jmsj

[12DMAX]

no, i smelt in another pot. Unfortunately my camera is junk. The boolits fill out nicely with sharp square edges but definitely have some crud in them. I spent alot of time on this 10lb batch, way more than IMO should be needed and still get crud. I live in the north east and wondering if the calcium they put on the roads might have something to do with it? Sand maybe?

[Mk42gunner]

I wouldn't think the calcium that is put on roads would combine with the WW, but I am not a metalurgist. Any sand/ dirt/ crud/ dog urine will come out with a good fluxing. Sawdust works well, or stirring with a wooden stick.

Robert

[captaint]

12D - Hope you're not running your lead too hot. It is possible to get so hot, you "burn up" the anitmony & tin and THAT junk will end up in the bottom of your pot and plug the spout. Don't ask how I know. You might need to empty the pot, again, and get clean and start with new alloy. Do keep the old stuff - you can cut it with 50% lead and it should be OK. enjoy Mike

[Larry Gibson]

What "bottom pour"?

Lee's are notorious for dripping.

Suggestions; with Lyman, RCBS and others with cast iron pots you must also scrape the sides and bottom of the pot of buildup and remove when empty. Also thoroughly scrape the sides when 1st melting a new batch, and then flux. If using the same alloy do not let the pot drain empty, leave an inch or so so the crud doesn't get into the spout. It's all in Lyman's directions/Cast Bullet Handbooks. I use a large GI stanless steel spoon as my scraper and stir when fluxing and reving debri. Wear a heavy leather work glove. Let the spoon sit on top of molten alloy to evaporate moisture before string/scraping in the molten alloy or tinsel fairy will visit.

Occasionally something will get into the spout regardless of our efforts. Not that hard to remove the spout (pot empty and cool obviously) use the right size drill and scraper (old screww driver ground to fit the taper from the inside of the pot. I have to clean it out maybe once a year at the most. Biggest alloy offender is range lead which takes a lot of fluxing to get the debri out. I also smelt WWs and range lead in a dutch oven on a large single propane burner and get the alloy pretty hot and then flux several times, just part of what's necessary for a good alloy.

Larry Gibson

[DLCTEX]

Are you water dropping? When I did I got spots that looked like crud due to hard water. I don't have any problems with bottom pour when alloy is clean.

[Roundnoser]

I agree witn Larry Gibson. I have a Lee 4-20 pot that drips no matter what I do! I also have a magma engineering pot that works 10X better. -- one thing I do prior to casting is to give the alloy a good stir at my melt temperature (@700 degress). Then, just let it sit for awhile before casting. If there is any crud in your finished alloy, it will settle at the top. Just skim it off with a spoon and you'll be in business.

As LG also said (a really good point), make sure you leave an inch of alloy in the bollom of the pot when you are finished. If there is any crud, it will be floating ABOVE the hole / plug.

Even if you take every precaution, eventually you will have to deal with a blocked spout. Proper care of the alloy, and pot maintenance will increase the time between cruddy-clogs!

[Longwood]

I used to use a spoon for stirring but noticed it made for a lousy pot scraper.
I tried a stick but did not like the chunks of carbon it left in the melt.
I ground a flat on the side and bottom of a long spoon so it would fit against the flat side and bottom of the pot and scrape the entire sides and bottom of the pot instead of only the small area a round spoon will scrape.
I also keep a long flat-blade screwdriver handy too reach down into the melt and clean the junk from around the pin and spout where the spoon will not reach.
I make certain the pin is directly lined up with the center of the hole in the valve or it drips constantly.
My pot does not make stalagmites anymore, but it always has the little irritating glob hanging from the spout that I have too wipe off before each pour.
I can't recall my Lyman pot doing that but it has been a long time since I messed up and sold it.

[12DMAX]

Ok, I got my el-cheapo camera going, tried for a bullet pic but camera just aint cutting it. Anyway take a look at this ingot, after bringing pot to temp and fluxing i opened the spout and this is what i'm getting. I never run my pot empty and cast @ 700F. This is a Lee IV. I flux with sawdust.

I cant believe I have zink contaimination I smelt all my WW's at 600-650F hand sort before going in the pot and if any sneek through I get them out as soon as clips float.

[Mk42gunner]

The top of that ingot does look ugly.

I would empty your bottom pour and clean the inside fo the pot; and also resmelt your ingots, using sawdust to flux with (a couple of times). Then pour an ingot and check it, flux until the alloy will pour a claen ingot.

Robert

[12DMAX]

MK- I will take your advice and culled out 80lbs from that batch to re-smelt for the 3rd time. The 10lb hand picked, side cutter approved, fluxed-fluxed-fluxed test batch I ran was much-o better BUT was still getting this stuff out the spout.

[largom]

Are you using a thermometer or the pot setting for your temp. controll? That ingot looked a little cold to me.

Larry

[Larry Gibson]

That's got to be the ugliest ingot cast I've ever seen:( assuming a Lyman/SAECO type cast iron ingot mould?

I would say there is something dreadfully wrong with that alloy, perhaps the zink mentioned? Or you are really not casting at 700 degrees. Are you using a thermometer?

Larry Gibson

[12DMAX]

I do use a thermometer, one thing about that Lee pot is setting #3 1/2 will take me to 700F, #4 will climb right up to 800+F. That ingot was the last of the pot, they all aren't that ugly but still have that mess in them. It doesn't take long for a clog to form in my spout while casting.

[Mk42gunner]

That's got to be the ugliest ingot cast I've ever seen

You've obviously never seen one of my ingots.

12D,

Before I started using sawdust, when I was fluxing with a stick while smelting; I had one batch of alloy that started giving me problems, it just would not cast right . I finally tried using some boolit lube while it was liquid in the Lee 4-20. That cleaned it up, right now, and let me cast decent boolits out of it.

I have no idea what the problem was, it was straight clipon wheel weights and had cast good before???

The point is that you may have to use a couple of different types of fluxing agent to get your metal clean.

Robert

[AR-15 Cowboy]

What kind of wood shavings are you using. Are they from a treated or stained wood?

[12DMAX]

MK, you might be on to something there, In my great DUH-ness :killingpcI am recalling now that this problem may have started showing it's self shortly after I went from bullet lube to sawdust. I will brew up another pot of new smelt and switch back to the bullet lube.

[12DMAX]

AR-15, no sir, walnut blocking.

[12DMAX]

Alright update, I went back to fluxing with wood chips, it sure keeps the pot clean BUT I just cant get all the **** off the bottom of this pot. My bullets vary little in weight +- .3-.5 gr. I do not care for the crud in my bullets although they shoot just fine so I am thinking of trading this baby off for a 20lb pot and ladle it.

[Longwood]

If you are trying to scrape the junk from the sides and bottom with a stick, you are depositing more junk.
A quick trial will prove it.
Get a pot nice and clean then stir the melt and scrape the sides and bottom of the pot with a wood stick.
Clean off all of the crud that floated up and scrape the pot again with a metal object that is flat on the side and end.
When you see what floats to the top of the, supposedly clean melt, you will quit using sticks.

[12DMAX]

Longwood:

I use a stainless spoon for scraping. Whatever this crud is lays on the bottom and refuses to be stirred out of the melt. I have drained this pot several times and cleaned but it just keeps accumulating. I am going to try a ladle for a bit, i really think it will clean things up. Maybe a BP just isnt in the cards for me who knows.

[RydForLyf]

The problem with crud gets easier to fix when you realize that it is not sinking to the bottom, but instead is "trapped" beneath the lead. Since the lead does not "wet" the pot, there is an extremely small space between the pot and lead which allows a layer of crud to get trapped. What stirring does is get some of the crud up off of the bottom so it can then float to the top.

The easiest way to get rid of the crud is to melt the lead and pour it into ingot molds. When the pot is empty, dump it out and clean it well. Refill it with clean lead and try to keep crud from getting along the edge of the pot. Whenever crud gets next to the sides, any disturbance along the side allows the crud to work a little further down the side and towards the bottom. It's only a matter of time before the crud winds up by the spout and in your bullets.

Chuck

[mold maker]

If you are trying to scrape the junk from the sides and bottom with a stick, you are depositing more junk.
A quick trial will prove it.
Get a pot nice and clean then stir the melt and scrape the sides and bottom of the pot with a wood stick.
Clean off all of the crud that floated up and scrape the pot again with a metal object that is flat on the side and end.
When you see what floats to the top of the, supposedly clean melt, you will quit using sticks.

Well stated Longwood.
Because there is also oxides held against the pot by the melt, I use that method for exactly the reason you stated. It's the easiest way to get the flux (carbon on the stick) below the surface of the melt against the pot. Once the carbon has done its job, I remove it with a spatula and spoon. The results is well fluxed lead with no residual junk in the pot.

[captaint]

I, too, have stopped stirring with sticks. Seems that when I use a metal spoon AND carry it all the way to the top of the melt and out. Then, look and see the little grey junk that followed the spoon out to the top.
I also like to keep a layer of either sawdust (burned up after a while) or I grind up some charcoal and layer that on top. Eveltually, that too, will burn up. When I add lead to the pot, I clear a little space to drop the new lead or sprues through, trying not to "drag" junk down into the pot. Maybe everybody does this, I don't know. Just my kink. enjoy Mike

[12DMAX]

Maybe I need to get my spoon on the grinder and make her fit the pot better.

[12DMAX]

Got her all cleaned up AGAIN [smilie=b:, giving it one more try, if she dont work out im trading her off for a ladle pot.

[zomby woof]

That looks pretty clean.

[12DMAX]

Its only seen about 100lbs of lead. Sawdust really keeps things clean.

[Moonie]

Are you water dropping? When I did I got spots that looked like crud due to hard water. I don't have any problems with bottom pour when alloy is clean.

I see exactly the same thing, when I air cool the boolits are perfect. At first I thought it was dirty alloy but then I noticed the air cooled didn't have the spots. I've discussed this with others in the past. Do not assume you have crud in your boolits until you find it in air cooled boolits.

[robertbank]

The only thing I can add to this is the simple fact that Lee Pots drip. If there is a cure for this I haven't heard of one. As for the crud, well if you flux with sawdust you shouldn't be having any problems that will impact your bullets. Crud will build up in the melter from sources even the casting gods can't answer. Seems to me it is part of the process. If there ha been any material effect on the performance of my boolits I haven't noticed it. Any performance issues I have had are attribute to older eyes and my inept shooting ability.

Take Care

Bob

[44-40]

I have a Lee bottom pour furnace.

I have always just cut chunks off of a candle, dropped it into the pot and stirred with a tiny metal ladle then skim the junk off of the surface of the melted lead/wheelweights. Never had a problem with junk coming out of the bottom spout.

[WVHunter129]

I do the same as 44-40, I use candle wax in my pot and it stays clean. I got my pot from a fiend who hadn't used it in 30 years. My first melting I had to scrape and scrape the sides and bottom with the LEE ladle. Everytime I brought the ladle up I had a brown powder residue come up with the spoon. I would skim this off, flux with candle wax and do it again. After about 3 times melting and doing this I now have a clean pot. Also now I keep the pot full all the time. When I am done I make sure the pot is full, turn it off, unplug and let it cool. If you decide to get rid of that pot I will give you 20 bucks for it! :)

Sent from my SGH-i677 using Board Express

[12DMAX]

Nothing wrong with my fluxing technique, if I ladle i get nice bullets with no inclusions. Ran the pot down on wed. and wala crud already after 20lbs. I'm going to experiment a little with seperating my wheel weights.


If you decide to get rid of that pot I will give you 20 bucks for it!

:happy dance:[smilie=w::shock:

[41mag]

I might be a bit new to the casting thing but I have the Lee 4-20 and have had similar issues.

What I have found, well until this past Thursday anyway, is while making ingots, if I flux several times using sawdust, this gets most of the crud out, I then flux using paraffin once before pouring ingots, and then once or twice more as I get towards the bottom, I have little to no junk in my pouring pot.

This has been very useful as I usually do not have any issues which cause me head aches. This past Thursday however I ran my first pot of range lead, and wouldn't you know, I ended up having to clean the spout several times during the pour. Once I got to the bottom I noticed quite a bit of crud similar to what has been mentioned here. Trust me when I say this WILL be addressed before any more of that goes through my pour pot again.

[robertbank]

This past Thursday however I ran my first pot of range lead, and wouldn't you know, I ended up having to clean the spout several times during the pour. Once I got to the bottom I noticed quite a bit of crud similar to what has been mentioned here. Trust me when I say this WILL be addressed before any more of that goes through my pour pot again.

With respect I think if you solve this problem you might want to register the solution and live off the royalties. Lee pots drip is the first rule of casting and the 2nd rule is you can't change the first rule.

I have been casting now for over 40 years and have yet to find a solution to the crud that seems to accumulate on the sides of the pot and eventually finds it's way to the bottom. That said I have seen no evidence that it ever gets into my bullets. I flux regularly and the crud floats to the top. I never drain my pot when casting so I am not concerned with crud that falls from the sides as the pot slowly drains. The crud just floats on the top of the melt and is skimmed off with the next flux.

Some things are just meant to be.

Take Care

Bob

[41mag]

With respect I think if you solve this problem you might want to register the solution and live off the royalties. Lee pots drip is the first rule of casting and the 2nd rule is you can't change the first rule.

I have been casting now for over 40 years and have yet to find a solution to the crud that seems to accumulate on the sides of the pot and eventually finds it's way to the bottom. That said I have seen no evidence that it ever gets into my bullets. I flux regularly and the crud floats to the top. I never drain my pot when casting so I am not concerned with crud that falls from the sides as the pot slowly drains. The crud just floats on the top of the melt and is skimmed off with the next flux.

Some things are just meant to be.

Take Care

Bob

I admit that my Lee does drip on occasion, usually however, it is just as it comes up to around 650 degrees or so, and the pot is full. Like you, I too usually do not run it empty, usually I stop with an inch or more left inside. As you mentioned most of the crud, if any, is either stuck to the sides and easily scraped off or is floating on top.

I tried several methods of fluxing both while making ingots, and with the alloy in the Lee. I have also taken lapping compound to the seat and stem on the Lee pot and thoroughly lapped a good seat in it. Between this and by only using the paraffin in the Lee I have about eliminated the drip in most cases. I also use a small finishing nail to clean the spout every time, before I cast to eliminate anything which might be stuck inside it. It might not be perfect, but it drips a WHOLE lot less than it did before I lapped in the seat, and changed up my fluxing methods.

The range lead however, was something else. It didn't act right from the get go and even while we poured plenty of nice boolits from it, once it got down within about 2" of the bottom we had to shut down the pour. It simply would gunk up with every cast. I emptied the rest down to check the pot out when we were done and found plenty of trash left over that wasn't floating nor stuck to the sides. This was a new one for me as I usually pour only wheel weight or isotope alloy. Like I mentioned I don't know what the deal was with the range lead as it was prepped in the same manner as the rest, but the rest of it will be thoroughly fluxed several more times before it see's the Lee again.

[robertbank]

Mike I read somewhere, likely here, that sawdust is better than paraffin wax as it mixes the tine better than wax will do. You might try that. I have to be honest I never have noticed any crud in my bullets. I now use sawdust and I find my melt much cleaner and less build-up of crud along the walls of the pot. My advice is to live with it. You might go crazy trying to eliminate the perceived problem.

Take Care

Bob

[tmc-okc]

I am new to the casting game. I have spent several weeks reading from this forum and have learned a lot. My pot is a Saeco Mod 24 I purchased used but looks great. I decided to start with a clean pot to insure I was doing things right. Used a bronze bristle brush and warm sopy water and scrubbed the inside of the pot. Dumped the crud and cleaned again and dumped the crud. Repeated a 3rd time and very little crud came out. Removed the spout and handle to also clean them. When the pot was completely dry I loaded 6 Lbs of metal and attempted to rour some ingots as a begining lesson. The bottom pour spout stream was VERY small to almost a trickle. I drained everything out of the pot and again removed the spout and handle and found the bottom pour cavity full of crud. Used a small drill bit to clean it out and then blew it out with compressed air. Loaded it with metal again after reassembling and this time the pour was much improved BUT it leaves a small fine stream of lead dangling from the bottom of the spout when I stop the pour. I noticed this pour spout is cylindrical in shape instead of a taper shape as I would have thought it would have. Is there a "Seat" of sorts inside the bottom of the pour cavity that I could have messed up during the cleaning process ?? If so what do I use to correct any problem I may have created ??

Any info you could provide would be appreciated. You guys are light years aheah of me - LOL.

Ichabod

[popper]

Get a putty knife for stirring, it cleans the edges and bottom real well. I had trouble with MDF sawdust rosin staying in the melt. I switched to planed trim wood. No rosin, large wood chips. Works fine.

[12DMAX]

I traded that BP off for a 20lb ladle pot, mucho nicer bullets, no junk in these ones.

[LonghunterCO]

What "bottom pour"?
Not that hard to remove the spout (pot empty and cool obviously) use the right size drill and scraper (old screww driver ground to fit the taper from the inside of the pot. Larry Gibson

What size drill bit/opening is it in the Lee Pro4 10# pot?

[Greg B.]

I have an RCBS bottom pour and face the same crud problems as you all. One thing that I found that helps but is no solution is to keep an old dental pick on hand. If the spout clogs or drips excessively while casting I gentlely poke the pick up the spout until it is flowing again. Make sure you are wearing a good glove on the hand that is holding the pick while doing this.

Greg B.

[paul h]

One thing that helps is to occasionaly clean out your bottom pour furnace. When the furnace is empty and cold, fill it with water. Plug the furnace in and when the water starts boiling, scrubs the sides of the pot with a ss toothbrush. You'll clean alot of crud out of the pot. Unplug it and dump the water and crud. Don't worry about water in your melt as the water will be completely gone long before any lead melts in the pot the next time you use it.