30-06 loads

[ejh69]

Can somebody share there 30-06 cast loads with me to get started? I will be using a Lyman .311, 165 gr. I would be interested in any loads between165-180 grs. Thanks

[sheepdog]

If you want to start low and slow look at "the Load" using 13 grains of Red Dot. That would put you at around 1550 fps with a pleasant lack of recoil (on par with aroudn a 223). Me and another member have tried this as well as lower grains (as little at 6.5 grains with modifed flashhole for about 1100 fps) with success for really light shooting and light cost. Ten shot groups at 100 yards around 2"average.

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

[Larry Gibson]

Assuming a GC'd bullet(?).

All with a 3/4 gr dacron filler and work up in 1/2 or 1 gr increments until accuracy goes south;

2400; start at 16 gr.

4759; start at 18 gr.

4895; start at 28 gr.

Best accuracy will come between 1600 - 1950 fps depending on alloy, quality of casting/loading and powder used.

Larry Gibson

[ilcop22]

Target? Hunting?

12-13 grains Red dot for target
34-36 grains IMR 4895 for hunting

[OregonCaster]

One quick question are you using Lyman # 311672 or Lyman 311291 ?

[ejh69]

Lyman 311291----Also is the standard large primer used or a mag primer to complete a hot flash throughout the low powder volume in the large case? Again thanks.

[mpbarry1]

Do you need filler with Red Dot? I would like to have a good plinking load without the need for fillers if possible. I have never used filler in anything, but I guess I could try if that is the only option.

[L Ross]

I've used 13 gr. of Red Dot for target and I killed the only deer I've shot at with it and the RCBS 150 gr flat nose it was pushing at 1,630 fps. I also shoot a 311299 with 16 gr of IMR-4227 with excellent accuracy in an 03A3 when I want to show off shooting gongs and groups. 311284 with the same charge of IMR-4227 works also.

Duke

[Larry Gibson]

Lyman 311291----Also is the standard large primer used or a mag primer to complete a hot flash throughout the low powder volume in the large case? Again thanks.

Standard primers work fine and are recommended for all loads listed so far.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Do you need filler with Red Dot? I would like to have a good plinking load without the need for fillers if possible. I have never used filler in anything, but I guess I could try if that is the only option.

No, a filler is not needed nor recommended with such Red Dot loads or Unique loads for that matter. A filler is best used with powders of 2400 and slower burning rate with light to medium weight bullets such as the 311291. Not totally necessary but a filler, especially a dacron filler, will improve the ignition consistency, lower the velocity ES, eliminate "position sensitivity" and most often improve accuracy.

Suggest a reading of the "sticky" on fillers if you decided to try them. Using a dacron filler is neither difficult nor rocket science BTW.

Larry Gibson

[mpbarry1]

Thanks Larry. I read quite a bit about fillers on some earlier threads and I think i was overthinking it. Rube Goldberg style. Anything from dryer lint to dacron. I forgot that I did use cream of wheat once to fire form some 257 AI cases. that was an adventure. So, dacron it is. and I will read the thread. Thanks as always Larry.

[uscra112]

Dryer lint?

[OregonCaster]

You could also try SR4759 starting @ 20.0 grains or AA5744 starting @ 26.0 grains. Here what the fun part is and that is every rifle is different and what works for one may not work in the other, I agree is a labor of love, I also look at it this way it's cheap therapy.

[mfraser264]

I have been using the Lyman 311644 190 gr. with gas checks cast of Linotype. A charge of Reloader 7 at 22.0 grains. From a Marlin XL7 ay 100 yards easily 1 1/2" groups with weight sorted bullets. Sized at .310".

Also, a old stand by bullet design, Lyman 311041, 170 gr. cast of Linotype with gas check. The charge of XMR 5744 at 26.0 grains is working well. The Marlin can hold 5 shots just over 1" at 75 yards with quality cast bullet. This is the go to for this rifle. Sized at .310".

[ejh69]

Thanks for all your help.

[leadman]

I shoot 19grs of SR4759 with Lyman 311041 in 3 of my 30-06 rifles, WLR primer, no filler. Works good for 200 yard military matches.

[Sonnypie]

I've been having a great time with Lyman 311291, 170g cast bullets and 11-16g of Unique. 12g being a favorite.
I get tighter groups from Unique than I did with my Red Dot test loads.
So much so, I bought an 8 pound jug of Unique for my Cast Bullet shooting.

Specs are:
Winchester Model 70, 30-06 Springfield
.3085 bore
Bullets drop water cooled @ .314", 172g bullet W/ Lyman#2 alloy.
Lubed with my own hot lube concoction.
Sized to .3105 to set checks and to get consistent bullets.
With various aluminum, brass, and copper gas checks.
Neck sized cases, and no crimping.

And I use NO fillers.

[Larry Gibson]

And I use NO fillers.

Probaly a good thing as they are not needed with that fast of a burning powder. I mention that in my post on the "filler" sticky.

Larry Gibson

[LowPE]

I load a lot of 30-06 for my 15 yr old son. 90% of the loads have no filler, but are used simply for non match shooting time -- if he calls the shot good then the occasional flier doesn't bother us. This is a Rem 700.

Now, in the M1 Garand we use a filler otherwise in clip fed rounds the spread grows so substantially....of course being cheap shooters we use toliet paper. Please realize that we are not trying to set course records...

So using a filler is optional depending upon use.

I have followed Larry G.'s advice for years and he is always spot on.

[shredder]

I use the Lee 160 rn with 14 gr Herco. Nice load in the 1650fps zone. I also use 8 grains of Herco with modified flash holes. Both very good shooters at 100 yds.

[MT Gianni]

I don't kow how deep you want to jump but I get good results with a 165 gr boolit and 56 gr WC860 or WC872. Both are surplus powders not available from local gun shops.

[Char-Gar]

Assuming a GC'd bullet(?).

All with a 3/4 gr dacron filler and work up in 1/2 or 1 gr increments until accuracy goes south;

2400; start at 16 gr.

4759; start at 18 gr.

4895; start at 28 gr.

Best accuracy will come between 1600 - 1950 fps depending on alloy, quality of casting/loading and powder used.

Larry Gibson

You can't go wrong with the counsel of Larry above. I used mostly 2400 and 4759 within the parameters above.

The only other load I use is 50/WC872/.5 - .75 cc PSB. The amount of PSB varies with the bullet weight. Use enough to get light compression of the powder. I have found this load will give sterling accuracy in every 30-06 I have tried. Any difference in accuracy will be the result of the bullet and it's fit to the individual barrel. This is the load I used to choose which bullet does best in any particular rifle. In the 160 to 180 grain range of bullet, I have had very good luck with 311291, 311467 (no good in two groove barrels) and RCBS 165 SIL. Any difference will be the rifle's individual preference.

The grand old 30-06 is over 100 years old and folks have been shooting cast bullet in it, since day one. Lots of good bullets, lots of data and lots of experience with this round. It is a good one!

[sten668]

I have used 10gn of Unique and the 311291 in my Mauser 06 with a 22 in barell for 1400 fps with good luck. All as cast WW, some heat treated and some dropprd into ice water from the mold. I have gone with the liquid alox because it's fast and I don't push them to a high velocity. No filler.

[frnkeore]

The National 300 yard record, 10 shot group of 3.680" was shot with 20.0 gr 4759 and the 311299, BW/Alox no wads or filler. That is the record for scoped militarty rifles, the rifle was a 03a3. So, it should be very good in any rifle in good condition.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

The National 300 yard record, 10 shot group of 3.680" was shot with 20.0 gr 4759 and the 311299, BW/Alox no wads or filler. That is the record for scoped militarty rifles, the rifle was a 03a3. So, it should be very good in any rifle in good condition.

Frank

Surely you jest, the world record is only 3.680" at 300 yards? Must have been a couple "flings":shock:

There are those here that claim much better than that and at screaming high velocity:veryconfu

How do it be............[smilie=s:

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

I'm shooting 20 grs of 2400 with 311041 which weighs 177 gr with no filler. Groups hover at around 2" or less at 100 with velocity of 1700 fps.

I haven't picked up any Dacron yet so I haven't tried it. I'm confidant that if Larry says its better you can take it to the bank.

[frnkeore]

What people say and the pictures of groups are one thing. The real world lies in what you can do in competion!!!

When a match starts, the BS stops.

Frank

[MT Gianni]

What people say and the pictures of groups are one thing. The real world lies in what you can do in competion!!!

When a match starts, the BS stops.

Frank

I believe that Larry had a certain individual or two in mind when he posted that. From his previous posts he would agree with your statement.

[SAJTU]

I've had good luck with 311291 (water dropped) and 20.0 grains of 2400 with a dacron filler out of my 2-groove 03A3. As suggested by Larry, it seems to be more accurate with the filler.

Recently, I worked up a Varget 32.0 grain load with the same bullet and dacron filler. It chrony's around 1920 fps out of the 03A3. Shoots about the same groups as 30-06 ball ammo at 200 yards but you do have to set the rear sight on the 650 yard setting. I'm planning on trying out this load at Sunday's 200 yard Military Match.

SAJTU

[Larry Gibson]

What people say and the pictures of groups are one thing. The real world lies in what you can do in competion!!!

When a match starts, the BS stops.

Frank

That is the truth, I am very much in agreement with you:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

A goodly portion of what is reported here on this site is not "real world" shooting. Lots of three or five shot "fluke" groups passed on as an example of what rifle, load and shooter can do on demand.

[waksupi]

A goodly portion of what is reported here on this site is not "real world" shooting. Lots of three or five shot "fluke" groups passed on as an example of what rifle, load and shooter can do on demand.

Very true. Cast boolit loads should be tested in ten shot groups.

[Char-Gar]

When I test for the accuracy of a rifle and/or load, I fire 4 consecutive 10 shot groups and average them. IMHO, you cant say a rifle or load is 1 MOA, 2 MOA or whatever until you do something similiar.

[geargnasher]

Not to derail thread, but I think it's pertinent here. I posted this elsewhere, but recently it occured to me that it's kind of pointless to show your best groups with a rifle and ignore the rest. When giving loading advice, same thing. Here's an example of reliable hunting accuracy that I've tracked for over a year in all kinds of weather and barrel conditions. I can pull this rifle out of the safe or the truck and fire 10 rounds across the hood or kneeling with support arm braced on a tree or from a Led Sled and it's always the same, sometimes better, but at least this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094f4bb2bc30273.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4152)

Is it bragging accuracy? Certainly not, but the rifle, load, and I can repeat that group just about any time, in front of anyone, and it's extremely reliable for hunting with the alloy and velocity I chose. I have more accurate loads for that rifle, but they are picky about temperature and bore condition. I have a stack of targets just like it from many sessions of shooting. One of these days I'm going to adjust the zero.

Gear

[Silvercreek Farmer]

A goodly portion of what is reported here on this site is not "real world" shooting. Lots of three or five shot "fluke" groups passed on as an example of what rifle, load and shooter can do on demand.

Like they say, enough monkeys with enough typewriters will will eventually write Hamlet!

Sorry about the drift, but I am always interested in what my WORST shots look like more so than my best (although those are the fun ones). If I know what my worst shots are, I know my limits, which is important to me.

[Char-Gar]

Gear...Your target is spot on with the topic. It is what I call accuracy. You have a 1.5 MOA cast bullet rifle, any day,every day and all day. That is good shooting and top drawer accuracy in my book. I only have one rifle that will beat it and not by much. I have a few rifles that will tie it, and many more that won't do that good.

[swheeler]

Gear; you could take that rifle to Tennessee and shoot one hole groups at twice the velocity!:):):):):):):):)

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

That is the true accuracy capability test of the rifle, the ammo and the shooter and very nicely done by you.

However, that stage is somewhat putting the cart before the horse. Finding an accurate load for the rifle before we test practical accuracy by load development and testing from a good rest (to take as much of the shooter out of the equation as possible) is what most of us do. Also I would like to add that many mistakenly think the accuracy capability of a load or rifle is "average". The “average” only tells us that a shot could be better or it could be worse. The accuracy capability is best measured with a minimum of one 10 shot group for a 95 - 97% "assurance". If multiple groups are fired all should be reasonably close to the same size. If there is a larger disparity as there can be with 3 or 5 shot groups then any conclusions can be misleading indeed. The sample size of a 3 or 5 shot group is not sufficient because of random shot placement with in the actual cone of fire or potential group size.

As an example; last week I spent a couple enjoyable days at the range (TRRC) and was in the company of a couple forum members. I was shooting up the last of the 7.62x54R Bulgarian “D” ammunition I had to finish the Berdan primer pocket conversion LR Boxer primers. This amounted to 80 rounds. I was able to take my time and not heat the barrel up, shooting slowly from the bench at 100 yards. As usual I track the 1st 10 shots. As you see on the left target with the 1st 10 shots tracked shots 1 – 3 make a pretty nice group considering the Finn M39, milsurp ammo and my old eyes. That group runs 1. 2”. Shots 4 & 5 making the proverbial 5 shot group made for a still very nice 1.46” group.

Now had I stopped there and claimed the accuracy of the rifle and ammo was “almost moa”with the 3 shot group or 1.5 moa with the 5 shot group would I have been correct? Not hardly, I have shot enough of that lot of milsurp 7.62x54R to know better. Besides, as mentioned, a 5 shot group doesn’t really give a reliable assurance of accuracy, velocity or psi measurement for a “lot” of ammunition. The minimum needed is 7 shots according to many ballisticians with 10 shots being the standard for SAAMI tests. Looking at shots 6 & 7 we see the group opened up to a more realistic 3.8”. The 1st 10 shots went into 4.28”. Doing the math we see that the 7 shot group gave an 87% assurance of the actual total group size (30 shots/3 ten shot groups). The 10 shot group gave a 97% assurance of what the actual accuracy capability of that ammunition was.

The next day I was able to shoot the remaining 50 rounds of that ammunition also at a leisurely pace. We see from that target (the right one) which represents 5 ten shot strings that the group size was 4.755”. Based on the 10 shot group from the day before which gives an assurance of 90% for what is essentially 8 ten shot strings or 16 five shot strings. Thus based on the 10 shot group size we could say, with assurance, the accuracy potential for that lot of ammo in that rifle was 4 – 5 moa and be essentially correct. That accuracy is a far cry from the false impression the 1st 3 shots or the 1st 5 shots gave. Thus we see how essential it is to have a sufficient sample size of at least 7 shots and preferably 10 shots when measuring accuracy potential, velocity or psi.

An interesting side note is the optical illusion that the left target group size is larger than the right target group. In fact it is not. I went right .7 moa on the front sight which centered the right group, just one of those things how looks can sometimes deceive.

One other note that of random dispersion; if we look at the right target we can see there are many possible 5 shot groups of 1 - 1.5 moa. Had we selected any of those combinations of rounds we could very well have been misled in any accuracy assessment. If we had shot any of the 3 potential shot groups in the 10 and 9 rings at 9 o'clock and then made a 1.5 - 2 moa windage correction to the right and then fired any of the shots to the right of the "X" we would have blown them out to the right into the 9, 8 and 7 rings. That is also why it is very important to understand the real accuracy potential (cone of fire at any given range) and understand that any sight adjustment does not move the impact of a bullet; any sight adjustment (windage or elevation) moves the center of the cone of fire. So if bullets are hitting in the expected cone of fire it's best not to adjust the elevation or windage as, sure enough, if you do the next shot will go out the other side, top or bottom.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

I would say that most people on this forum are hunters.

There is another type of accuracy. I'll call it "Hunting Accuracy". Here, you need to work with a load that will group only three shots but, it must preform from a cold barrel (it could start fouled but, cold) and be shot rapidly (one to two seconds per shot). You must be able to repeat the grouping day to day and not loose your POI.

I'm only a competitive shooter so, I never test that way. Has anyone done any testing along this line?

Frank

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Great post Larry, I was about to start a new thread with the question you just answered!

[waksupi]

This is what a .358 Win. can do at 100 yards. I believe this was 20 shots.

[nanuk]

I'm not a Stats man, and I have never been a competitive shooter, but have been a hunter for 35 years.
for Accuracy, I NEED my first round to be in a known cone of fire, out to my known PBR.

I KNOW my 270 Ruger1B, with 150gr Jwords WILL put the first shot, from a cold barrel, on a 10" plate at 300 yds, from a padded solid rest, where I have time to get comfortable, so I don't hurry the shot.

I also KNOW that said rifle will put the next 9 rounds, fired slowly so the barrel doesn't get too hot, inside 2" at 100, and hit the 10" gong at 300 yds every time. This is a Center hold, as 300 yds is within my self defined PBR for the above.

When I build my Cast loads, I will use the same thinking, except the PBR will be defined by the performance of the load itself.
using waskupi's load above, if it were mine, I would do some calculations to find out how far out I can hold center POA on my 10" plate and get 100% "GOOOOONNNG"

for sake of argument, if waksupi's load was doing 1900fps, using a BC of .250, that would give me, with a center of deer hold, a MAX height of 3.6" +/- 1.44" at 96 yds, and a MIN height of -2.4" +/- 2.70" at 180 yds..
so 180yds would be my self imposed PBR, where I could hold center of deer, and know that my boolit will hit inside that 10" zone, every time. Well, the rifle would be capable of it, but would I??? I'd need a good solid rest, and time to settle in... if not, then my PBR gets closer.

does this make any sense to anyone?

[Larry Gibson]

waksupi

If those two low right shots are not called then looks like a very fine load capable of about 2 1/2 moa. Can't argue with that for hunting:smile:

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

Rifle vary widly in their accuracy level. How accurate does a rifle need to be and how do you measure that is a moving target. Hunting level accuracy depends on the range and how big is the game. For much hunting 4 to 5 MOA is more than plenty.

Many rifles due to heat and other issues won't sustain their accuracy for ten round groups.

There for many folks and rifles 3 or 5 shot groups are what they need.

There is nothing wrong with reporting small number of round groups, as long as it is stated so everything can be placed into context. The issues start, when folks report they have a MOA rifle or whatever with no facts or context.

Folks who have been around rifles for a very long time can usually figure out the context even if it is not stated. However, new folks often get the wrong idea and become frustrated when their rifles can't do the same thing. Most often their rifles can do the same thing, if the context was known. Without full information/context confusion can result.

When I report on this board, that a rifle delivers consistant 1, 1.5, 2 or whatever MOA I am talking about multiple ten round groups. If I report a group with lesser round, I will make that clear.

With the context stated then we can evaluate the information and learn. We can also know when there is BS in the air.

Then there is the issue of when we stop testing for load accuracy. I do not enjoy constant fiddling and tweaking, so when the accuracy gets to the point where I feel it is equal to a good factory load, I call it good enough.

[45 2.1]

Rifle vary widly in their accuracy level. How accurate does a rifle need to be and how do you measure that is a moving target.
Rifles are as accurate as what you put in them and how good you are. Many times someone else can get more out of your rifle and loads than you can yourself.

With the context stated then we can evaluate the information and learn. We can also know when there is BS in the air.
Only from what you believe is possible based on your level of knowledge and expertise..........

Then there is the issue of when we stop testing for load accuracy. I do not enjoy constant fiddling and tweaking, so when the accuracy gets to the point where I feel it is equal to a good factory load, I call it good enough. Exactly what is a good factory loads accuracy level? Varies with the firearm and shooter.

Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Now that statement in blue really sums things up..... doesn't it. Lots of folks here at all different levels of knowledge.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Will the temperature of a rifle stabilize at a certain (reasonable) point, shooting every 5-10 seconds at say 70 deg ambient, or will it continue to heat the barrel and string shots?

[Larry Gibson]

The barrel will continue to get hotter, the more rounds the hotter it will get. Depending on the quality of the barrel and the bedding it shoul not string shots with a reasonable number of shots. High poewr match shooters will shoot two ten shot "rapid fire" strings (10 shots in 50, 60 or 70 seconds depending on the match and stage in each string) fairly close togenter so the barrels get fairly warm. Good barrels don't string the shots.

A long time ago in a land far away out Ben Cat way along the edge of the Iron Triangle a 1/RAR Land Rover in front of us was taken out by a 57mm reckless rifle from a fighting position about 150 meters off to my right. The RR was supported by 2 automatic weapons which made things interesting. I could definately see where they were at and since they obviously knew where I was at since a good burst put out M151 out of working/running order I figured the 57mm reckless gunner would take a pot shot at our gun jeep next. Soooooo....I put 1600 - 1800 rounds out of my M60 in one burst at them until the grunts dismounted and sorted out the problem, much to the dismay of the hapless PAVN.......

It was about 1300 in bright sunlight and the barrel over the gas cylinder was glowing a very bright yellow. We poured 30-30W motor oil on it to cool it and the oil burst into flame like it was gasoline. That's about the hottest I've had a barrel. Even though it was still shooting minute of PAVN it was definately time to put the spare barrel on the gun though.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

45 2.1 - Bobby Kell..... I had forgotton about your claims of superior knowledge and skills in the areas of cast bullet rifle shooting. Therefore, nothing in my post was directed at you.

All I will say is every mechanical device has it's mechanical limits. Washing machines won't fly, no matter how much you know about them and wish then could. Rifles have their mechanical limits also, that even the all knowing, folks with the Holy Mojo can't get around. So the position that the only limits to accuracy is the knowledge, loading and shooting of a human is so absurd on it's face that it isn't worth discussing.

I think most if not all of us stopped listening to that stuff years ago, but there are alway new folks coming along that might fall for it.

[Mooseman]

With enough High Explosives I can make anything Fly... LOL

[madsenshooter]

A now gone WWII veteran friend of mine once told me about his platoon capturing a German MG. As many of you are probably aware, the cyclic rate of the German MGs was considerably higher than ours. He said they loaded it up, pointed it at a 45 degree angle towards Germany and let it rip. In not much time the barrel got red hot and started to droop from the heat. They stopped firing when they lost their 45 degree angle. I think they were on the west bank of the Rhine and knew there were no allied soldiers ahead of them. Now this has nothing to do with the rest of the posts, so... nice group waksupi.

[frnkeore]

A good friend of mine (now gone) would tell about his days as a gunner on WW2 bomers. When coming back from a mission, he would sometimes turn his "50" loose until it would get so hot that the powder would self ignite when chambered. he would have to brake the belt to stop it.

Frank

[Dthunter]

Nice job Waksupi!
Those kind of groups really leave us shooters with a feeling of accomplishment and confidence in our equipment! Well deserved as always!
Keep it up guys!

Shooting like this is just FUN!

Take care guys, straight shooting, and keep it fun!